penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

[megaplayboy]

Here's a deceptively simple question:

What would be the "base time" and difficulty level for the following seduction-based social interactions?

1. striking up a conversation and getting a phone number for a future date

2. .....and getting a firm committment to a date in the very near future

3. .....and getting them to accompany you on a date NOW(dinner, dancing, etc.)

4. ....and getting them to come back to your apartment/hotel room immediately

5. ....and their cute friend too

 

My take is that the base period should be some time between 5 minutes and an hour, and that "rush" attempts would incur a penalty, while taking more time would give a bonus to success.

 

I think the first instance is an incredibly easy and routine use of seduction, and should probably be a +3-+5 type of roll, depending on other circumstances. The second is still pretty straight-forward, and probably a 0 to +2 type of roll. The third is moderately challenging, probably a straight roll or a -1 at most. The 4th is tougher, but not ridiculously so--I'd say -2 or -3 in most instances. The last situation is likely extremely difficult, but not really what I'd consider an "impossible skill roll", so I'd put the difficulty at maybe -5 or -6, and each "target" gets to make a roll, of course.

 

The reason I'm asking for feedback is because I have a PC with the skill, and I need some ballpark idea of how effective he is with the skill. He's a compulsive womanizer, and likely to use the skill a lot. But if every NPC can just shrug off/blow off his charms, it will be a)frustrating, and b)out-of-concept for the character.

[Trebuchet]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

It's easy, MP. If the target female is into casual sex, he'll probably score with a simple successful roll. If she's not, then he's going to have to either take the suggested penalties or take extra time (like a month or more) to get her into the sack. If she's not "putting out" until she's married, then he probably won't succeed sexually although she may love him chastely. I think your numbers are about right, except I'd put a woman saving her chastity for her marriage or religious reasons at about a -10. He might still succeed with a great roll.

 

I suspect after the first few times this works effortlessly your player will get bored with it and might start using the non-sexual aspects of the skill.

[Edsel]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

It's easy, MP. If the target female is into casual sex, he'll probably score with a simple successful roll. If she's not, then he's going to have to either take the suggested penalties or take extra time (like a month or more) to get her into the sack. If she's not "putting out" until she's married, then he probably won't succeed sexually although she may love him chastely. I think your numbers are about right, except I'd put a woman saving her chastity for her marriage or religious reasons at about a -10. He might still succeed with a great roll.

 

I suspect after the first few times this works effortlessly your player will get bored with it and might start using the non-sexual aspects of the skill.

 

Sounds good to me. A target libido modifier might be called for here.

 

My own character, Torean ,is a bard in our FH game. He uses his seduction skill mainly as an information gathering tool.

[caris]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

Well, the problem here is that the "Base" situation has a lot of variables in it.

 

Is the "target" attracted to the skill user.

Is the "target" in a healthy relationship.

Does the "target" have any psych lims that apply either way.

What condition is the "target" in at the time.

Should the "target's" Ego or Pre influence the situation.

Where is the attempt taking place.

 

For example: Your character is in a "pick up" bar or similar venue, the "target" finds your character at least minimumly attractive (this includes they believe you to be the gender/sex they are attractive to), they are sober, not just out of a break up or otherwise nuetral to the prospect of dating (single, very open relationship, etc). I would probably rule that you need a minimum of 15 minutes to get a phone number, and a simple success on the skill roll, or a tie or better on an opposed roll vs. Ego or Pre.

 

I'd use that as a base and modify difficulty from there.

[Edsel]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

If we are not careful we will over complicate this. Part of the idea of using a random die roll (3d6) is to account for the unquantifiable variables. If a character fails a seduction roll it may signify any number of things. (The target just doesn't like your looks, they're not in the mood right now, a social blunder, etc.)

 

People can always be talked into things they know they shouldn't be doing. I have always allowed the target of seduction to resist with an EGO roll if I feel they would want to resist the attempt. You should be very careful about letting NPRs seduce players against their will (its generally a bad idea to railroad players).

 

Of course, a character's chance of success should take into account what impact it will have on your story line. (For instance if Luke Skywalker had seduced the Emperor at the end of SWIII, that would have been anti-climatic... and disturbing).

[Edsel]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

Here's a deceptively simple question:

What would be the "base time" and difficulty level for the following seduction-based social interactions?

1. striking up a conversation and getting a phone number for a future date

2. .....and getting a firm committment to a date in the very near future

3. .....and getting them to accompany you on a date NOW(dinner, dancing, etc.)

4. ....and getting them to come back to your apartment/hotel room immediately

5. ....and their cute friend too

 

Sorry, I was getting dangerously close to derailing this thread. My suggested modifiers would be as follows:

 

1. 0, no modifier.
   
2. -1 to -2
   
3. -3, you're just dickering on the timing of the date
   
4. -4 to -6, Cirmcumstance dictates this (romantic setting vs. her boy-friend is right there).
   
5. -7 to -10 (I have always thought that -10 is about the max penalty for anything that is at all possible).
   

 

I no longer have the rules but the old Victory Games, James Bond 007 RPG had a lot rules dealing with seduction and the various stages in seduction.

[Trebuchet]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

Well, the problem here is that the "Base" situation has a lot of variables in it.

 

Is the "target" attracted to the skill user.

Is the "target" in a healthy relationship.

Does the "target" have any psych lims that apply either way.

What condition is the "target" in at the time.

Should the "target's" Ego or Pre influence the situation.

Where is the attempt taking place.

 

For example: Your character is in a "pick up" bar or similar venue, the "target" finds your character at least minimumly attractive (this includes they believe you to be the gender/sex they are attractive to), they are sober, not just out of a break up or otherwise nuetral to the prospect of dating (single, very open relationship, etc). I would probably rule that you need a minimum of 15 minutes to get a phone number, and a simple success on the skill roll, or a tie or better on an opposed roll vs. Ego or Pre.

 

I'd use that as a base and modify difficulty from there.

I would assume part of the Seduction skill is gauging how hard to push. A basic roll might tell you you're being too aggressive (or not aggressive enough); a roll made by several points might provide a bonus to ascertain which approach might be ultimately successful with your intended target. And obviously, being in a hot pickup nightclub is likely to provide bonuses right off the bat. A high COM might well work as a bonus as well.

[Edsel]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

Complimentary skill rolls can also be useful here. For instance, a High Society roll at a formal dinner. PS: Poet, if the target is into that sort of thing. PS: Cooking, if you have made a meal for your target as part of your strategy.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

1: Base time-5 minutes

2: Base time-5 minutes (not too much difference between getting the number and getting a date confirmation. Chances are if you get the number and its not fake, they already desire a date)

3: Base time-20 minutes

4: Base time-1 hour

5: Base time-1 hour with additional -3 penalty!

 

Various modifiers:

 

Comliness: +1 per 5 points above 10. -1 per 5 points below 10. Alternately allow a "Comliness roll" to act as a complimentary skill.

 

Persuasion: roll complimentary skill.

Acting: if the character has foreknowledge of his targets ideal mate, (or has telepathy and can read their mind) the character can use acting to emulate their ideal, and thus can be used as a complimentary skill. The amount of foreknowledge can give a serious bonus to this roll.

Conversation: The character can use this skill during the opening dialogue to get the information they require to aid in seduction. A successful use of this skill can give a +1 bonus, but usually not much more (unless it was a critical success)

High Society: In appropriate situations, this skill may be complimentary to seduction, if used properly.

Lipreading: if the character stal..er, I mean observes his target for a time before approaching them, this skill can be used to gain valuable information which will aid when the seduction attempt begins. Bonus depends on the information gathered.

Mimicry: How can this help? Well, if you use lipreading as suggested above and discover that your potential target LOVES Mel Gibson, and you use mimicry to sound just like Mel Gibson, do you think that would increase your chances?

Streetwise: The opposite of High Society. This works as above, but on the seedy side of town. Trust me, there are plenty of women out there who will laugh at you if you don't speak the latest slang properly and naturally. Most especially if you are a minority (mainly hispanic or black)

Presence attacks: If you do something completely cool and impressive before you approach your target, your chances may be significantly increased. Of course what one individual thinks is "cool" another may find "pathetic" so be careful here. Guidelines: +1 bonus per 5pts the PRE attack beat their Ego (or PRE)

Psychological limitations: Your own or your targets psych lims may help or hinder your progress. If you have the limitation Shy chances are you'll flub it. If your target has the psych lim; Permiscuous, then you're likely in-like-Flynn. Suggested bonuses: Moderate +/-1: Strong +/-2: Total +/-3 (or impossible depending on situation)

[megaplayboy]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

My assumption is that if you even have the skill at 8-, you are still better than average at befriending people and getting dates.

Looking at the real world, clearly there are people who are extremely effective at meeting people, getting dates, and even getting people to do things they would normally never even contemplate.

I think most guys know at least one guy in high school, college or beyond who was ridiculously effective at meeting and dating women, and left other guys scratching their heads.

So my thoughts are, at 8 or less, you kind of have a knack for making friends and getting dates, but it's pretty low key.

At 11 or 12 or less, you're the life of the party, and the local pick-up artist--and you will probably have one or two wild tales to tell before settling down.

At 14 or 15 or less, you're a major "player", and many members of the opposite sex may wake up wondering how the heck they got there(but possibly not minding too much).

At 16 or 17 or less, this is James Bond/James T. Kirk territory--your black book works as a backup phone book, and another book could be filled with tales of your wilder experiences.

At 18 or 19 or less, this is Don Juan/Casanova level--the extraordinary becomes routine, and the impossible becomes possible. Watch out for angry men with shotguns!

At the 20+ level, this is "megaplayboy" territory(heh)--it's very close to being a superpower at this point.

 

One of my pet peeves is GMs who don't seem to care what the dice say, if the player doesn't roleplay the skill to their satisfaction, they don't succeed.

The reason why I disagree with this:

I don't actually have to know martial to play a martial artist.

I don't have to know how to program computers to play a programmer.

I don't have to pantomime lifting a tank while playing a brick.

 

So why should I have to be as smart or charming as my character is supposed to be? Not everyone's a great roleplayer. If you have the skill, that should trump bad acting on your part. Otherwise, every social interaction is "won" by the better roleplayer(in the subjective judgment of the GM).

I agree that PCs shouldn't be forced to conform to the results of successful PRE skill rolls on them--but they should react appropriately(even if they decide otherwise) when such skills are used successfully.

[Jhamin]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

One of my pet peeves is GMs who don't seem to care what the dice say, if the player doesn't roleplay the skill to their satisfaction, they don't succeed.

The reason why I disagree with this:

I don't actually have to know martial to play a martial artist.

I don't have to know how to program computers to play a programmer.

I don't have to pantomime lifting a tank while playing a brick.

 

So why should I have to be as smart or charming as my character is supposed to be? Not everyone's a great roleplayer. If you have the skill, that should trump bad acting on your part. Otherwise, every social interaction is "won" by the better roleplayer(in the subjective judgment of the GM).

 

My brother used to play a suave aristocratic diplomat/Werewolf in my Champions game. He had spent about 40 points all told in social/interactve skills, but usually managed to somehow blunder the roleplay end of charming someone. (The fact that this was two brothers roleplaying with each other probably didn't help)

 

One night, in frustration, he just came out & said "I could never talk my way past this guy, but my charater's whole concept is that he can. Can't I just roll the dice & say the right thing?".

 

I had to admit, he was right. From then on, we roleplayed up until it was time for his character to get somebody to do something/say something/give away something. Then he just rolled the dice.

[arcady]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

There really isn't a 'base time' to seduction. I've seen people say 'come suck [fill in what you know belongs here]' as the first words out of their mouth on meeting a new person passing in the street, and have it work.

 

The ex-roommate in question had a knack for that sort of thing.

 

I've also seen the slow interplay of time take it's course.

 

That said, successful seduction really seems to happen in the first few glances - the rest of the game is getting both sides to realize it and concede to it. If, like my ex-roomate you can really judge people well, your seduction attempts can take seconds as a matter of routine. Most of us however, take agonizing months of game play to both admit our true feelings and get past our social hangups.

 

You might consider this for the PC:

 

Make a seduction check, and assign as a penalty half the difference in the COM scores of the two characters. - People tend to prefer others on their level even though they desire those who are more attractive.

 

With someone much more attractive people tend to get intimidated and this can make it hard for that attractive person to seduce us.

 

Also assign a penalty equal half the difference in PRE if the lower PRE score is the seducer. That, or have an opposed skill check vs. PRE check. People are willing to seduce shier people, but shier people get intimidated by stronger personalities.

 

The opposed check method introduces the idea that it is easier to seduce a shier person - so it works to give you an effective bonus.

 

Lastly, give a penalty of 1 per five years difference in age, but if the target is emotionally still a minor flip it to a bonus. Age makes a difference, but people who are not emotionally mature are easy to dominate - regarldess of the genders involved.

 

Introduce a bonus of 2 for a target who is inexperienced, but make it a penalty of two if they are 'repressed' and find their sexuality something to be shameful of.

 

Conversely be aware that there are experienced people who find their sexuality shameful and yet still pursue it. If the target has some form of sexual compulsion disorder introduce a bonus of 2 per level of severity of the psych lim, and then stat up the therapist...

 

Conceptually that's what I'd suggest. The mechanics of my ideas might need a little refinement though.

[arcady]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

So why should I have to be as smart or charming as my character is supposed to be? Not everyone's a great roleplayer.

For me, you don't have to be a great actor, but you do have to be a great gamer.

 

You have to be able to set up the scene, portray your strategy of play, and know just when to say 'and then I work my seductive skills'.

 

Just like I expect the player who's character is a great scientist to be able to tell me that they research this and that (saying what - like "I research the chemicals and the nature of toads"), which clues they look at, who they talk to, that they gather past data together to compare, and then and only then say 'and so work my skills in science to try and draw a conclusion answering my question correctly'.

 

The player need not know the first thing about science to do that. They just have to have good game.

[BNakagawa]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

The environmental penalties for the added 'degrees of difficulty' depend on what genre you're in.

 

If the anime version of your game would be produced and directed by the team that brought us Fist of the Northstar, then everyone has a base -10 penalty and -10 for each step past the first.

 

If the anime version of your game would be produced and directed by the team that brought us Love Hina/any other romantic comedy anime series, then the base is pretty much -0 and it's closer to -3 or 4 for each level.

 

If the live action version of your game would be an Aaron Spelling project, then everyone gets a +5 bonus that even applies to the everyman 8- and there's at most a -1 penalty for added degrees of difficulty. Maybe no penalty at all during sweeps week.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

My assumption is that if you even have the skill at 8-, you are still better than average at befriending people and getting dates.

Looking at the real world, clearly there are people who are extremely effective at meeting people, getting dates, and even getting people to do things they would normally never even contemplate.

I think most guys know at least one guy in high school, college or beyond who was ridiculously effective at meeting and dating women, and left other guys scratching their heads.

 

Oh yeah. One of my best friends when I was in the Navy was like that. He was a good looking guy (but no Tom Cruise or anything) but kinda short and skinny...and he could pick up chicks like nobody else I knew (except for an ex-girlfriend of mine...she was good at picking up women too). He was arrogant beyond reasoning, and I figure that was probably 90% of it.

Now myself, I was never any good at the quick pick-up. Certainly I've done it, but it was not due to seduction on my part, pure Comliness was what I was working on in those cases. Now what I am good at is the long-term seduction. I have in many cases, scored with women everyone else tried and failed with, but in most cases it took around 6 months or so. We tend to go out and do stuff as friends, then one day, they just wake up in my bed. Fortunately, over the years I've only had 1 girl freak out about it (she didn't mean to sleep with me and still to this day has no idea how she got there. Don't ask me, I just asked her if she could give me a massage!). The problem with my method is that after investing so much time, they tend to want a relationship...even women who normally avoid relationships...and I have a relationship phobia, so thats when the problems begin

 

Ah, the good ole days...

 

 

One of my pet peeves is GMs who don't seem to care what the dice say, if the player doesn't roleplay the skill to their satisfaction, they don't succeed.

The reason why I disagree with this:

I don't actually have to know martial to play a martial artist.

I don't have to know how to program computers to play a programmer.

I don't have to pantomime lifting a tank while playing a brick.

 

So why should I have to be as smart or charming as my character is supposed to be? Not everyone's a great roleplayer. If you have the skill, that should trump bad acting on your part. Otherwise, every social interaction is "won" by the better roleplayer(in the subjective judgment of the GM).

I agree that PCs shouldn't be forced to conform to the results of successful PRE skill rolls on them--but they should react appropriately(even if they decide otherwise) when such skills are used successfully.

 

Agreed 100%. As a GM, if my players have a skill, I allow them to use that skill to the characters fullest, even if the player can't quite roleplay it correctly. I know we're there to roleplay, but more than that, we're there to have fun, so I let shy, bumbling players get away with seducing the supermodel if their character is capable of it, even if the player isn't.

[caris]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

One of my pet peeves is GMs who don't seem to care what the dice say, if the player doesn't roleplay the skill to their satisfaction, they don't succeed.

The reason why I disagree with this:

I don't actually have to know martial to play a martial artist.

I don't have to know how to program computers to play a programmer.

I don't have to pantomime lifting a tank while playing a brick.

 

So why should I have to be as smart or charming as my character is supposed to be? Not everyone's a great roleplayer. If you have the skill, that should trump bad acting on your part. Otherwise, every social interaction is "won" by the better roleplayer(in the subjective judgment of the GM).

I agree that PCs shouldn't be forced to conform to the results of successful PRE skill rolls on them--but they should react appropriately(even if they decide otherwise) when such skills are used successfully.

 

Yes, but that does cut both ways. Too often I've seen players that create characters with the "I'm so charming that I could call you an asshole and have you thank me for it," but the player has all the charm of a wharthog with jock itch. Now with NPC interactions that is ok, you can abstract it, but it can be a real problem with other PCs. Now I've seen two usual problems.

 

First, the PC doesn't realize they aren't up to rping that level of charm and never resort to the dice so that the players have something to moderate what they are doing. I've literally had to break character in one game, where the player was getting so bad to point out to him that perhaps he should consider that the rest of us players might percieve a difference between the amount of charm he has and his character had. Therefore it might be best if he stopped insulting our characters so obviously.

 

The second problem, that I've run into. Is the player that tries using social skills as a form of mind control on the PC. As an example one character, in an Earthdawn campaign, hadn't brought any reasonable supplies with her in a situation where she was traveling with people she just met. The player, a guy, thought he could just have his female character use her seduction skill and other social skills (not talents for those familiar with Earthdawn) to convince the male characters to give her whatever she needed. Once again the player had the character act in an obnoxious and abraisive manner prior to this.

[megaplayboy]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

Yes' date=' but that does cut both ways. Too often I've seen players that create characters with the "I'm so charming that I could call you an asshole and have you thank me for it," but the player has all the charm of a wharthog with jock itch. Now with NPC interactions that is ok, you can abstract it, but it [b']can[/b] be a real problem with other PCs. Now I've seen two usual problems.

 

First, the PC doesn't realize they aren't up to rping that level of charm and never resort to the dice so that the players have something to moderate what they are doing. I've literally had to break character in one game, where the player was getting so bad to point out to him that perhaps he should consider that the rest of us players might percieve a difference between the amount of charm he has and his character had. Therefore it might be best if he stopped insulting our characters so obviously.

 

The second problem, that I've run into. Is the player that tries using social skills as a form of mind control on the PC. As an example one character, in an Earthdawn campaign, hadn't brought any reasonable supplies with her in a situation where she was traveling with people she just met. The player, a guy, thought he could just have his female character use her seduction skill and other social skills (not talents for those familiar with Earthdawn) to convince the male characters to give her whatever she needed. Once again the player had the character act in an obnoxious and abraisive manner prior to this.

well, of course, PCs are supposed to be largely immune to the mechanical effects of PRE skills(while expected to conform in surface reaction, the decision is still theirs). Another thing would just be assigning hefty penalties to the PCs seduction attempts, since their behavior would engender hostility.

[caris]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

well' date=' of course, PCs are supposed to be largely immune to the mechanical effects of PRE skills(while expected to conform in surface reaction, the decision is still theirs). Another thing would just be assigning hefty penalties to the PCs seduction attempts, since their behavior would engender hostility.[/quote']

Well, to an extent that would help with the second problem but not the first. Even so, it doesn't really seem like a satisfactory way of dealing with the second problem either. Even putting on heavy penalties means that there is still a chance of success, and that you are effectively having someone in the game that thinks it is OK to do the equivalent of mind controling their fellow players' characters into doing what the first player wants them to do.

[Turin]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

I have also seen players that are really good at manipulating people in real life not spend points on interaction skills because everything was role-played. To one extreme, my brother would basically con the GM and hence the NPCs.

 

The problem is greatest when you have a charismatic player who’s character might have no social skills at all, overshadowing a character the has been styled as a diplomat extraordinaire.

 

And then I have seen players that role-play their characters lack of social graces be penalized in making checks since they were abrasive. Basically being double penalized when the roll took place since he had role-played his character.

 

I personally think this is something that really needs to be covered with care by the GM. So that it doesn't unbalance the game too much one way or the other.

[arcady]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

If you've got 'good game' I'll give you a circumstance bonus when you make the skill check...

 

But you will be making the skill check, no matter how well you roleplay it.

 

And if you hand me a PRE 8 character and then play him like a pimp-daddy, you're going to see me rewriting your character until I find a way to afford the PRE 18 you've been playing at my table.

 

So you might as well save yourself the trouble and spend the points for it on day one.

[Dust Raven]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

The simple act of "picking up chicks" simply isn't. Certainly there's not much to it. A witty line to start up conversation, some body language and then it's all about who you are and what you say. Except that success, if you can call it that, depends upon the setting and the attitude and desires of the "target" just much, if not more, than what you say.

 

Now, for game purposes, I'd just make arbitrary judgements on a base time based on the approach, and each approach would have it's own bonuses and penalties depending upon the target and the setting. After all, saying "do me now" has a much better chance on an available subject in a sex club than it would on the cashier at the grocery store. There's just no way to set up a table or chart to accomidate even most of the general situations.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

And don't forget, he won't know if his roll succeeded until he actually tries to use the phone number.

 

"The number you have dialed is not in service. If you feel you have reached this recording in error, please hang up and try again."

[Dust Raven]

Re: penalties and bonuses for Seduction skill rolls

 

And don't forget' date=' he won't know if his roll succeeded until he actually tries to [i']use[/i] the phone number.

 

"The number you have dialed is not in service. If you feel you have reached this recording in error, please hang up and try again."

I don't know if its still around, but there was an actual service that provided a phone number to female bar hoppers to give out to anyone asking, just to make them go away. When the men they'd give it to called (and if they call), they'll get a rather rude and often insulting message greeting.