Reconciling Manga & Batman

[Enforcer84]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

That's what you get. Cool is often interchangeable with breakable

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

There are times I wish I had a camera or video footage of an event for resource material.

 

Real world Matial Arts Stunts

 

Bruce Lee's 3" Punch moving a rail car, knocking an Olympic Judo Gold Medalist Champion accross the mat and into a chair.

 

A Martial Arts documentary on Akido. 6 Kendo students with Bokken attacked the Akido Grand Master. They surround him and attacked. He avoided all of them and knocked them off balance or into one another.

 

A Hwarang Instructor demonstation where he launched into the air striking and breaking 6 targets before touching the ground.

 

The Shaolin Priests demonstrations make my chest hurt just watching them.

 

Muay Thai Kick boxing demo where an instructor destroyed bricks then proceded to battle in a tournament and win.

 

A Indian Sufi who lift over a ton over his head. Noted in Steve Barnes novel "Gorgon Dreams"

 

My Tai Chi Instructor sending participants flying accross the room with a gentle touch.

 

Me catching a base ball thown at the back of my head by a ticked off pitcher without turning around.

 

The human body is an amazing thing and I don't think it's limits are truely understood. I wonder what our true limits are.

 

Cheers

 

QM

[RDU Neil]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

There are times I wish I had a camera or video footage of an event for resource material.

 

Real world Matial Arts Stunts

 

Bruce Lee's 3" Punch moving a rail car, knocking an Olympic Judo Gold Medalist Champion accross the mat and into a chair.

 

A Martial Arts documentary on Akido. 6 Kendo students with Bokken attacked the Akido Grand Master. They surround him and attacked. He avoided all of them and knocked them off balance or into one another.

 

A Hwarang Instructor demonstation where he launched into the air striking and breaking 6 targets before touching the ground.

 

The Shaolin Priests demonstrations make my chest hurt just watching them.

 

Muay Thai Kick boxing demo where an instructor destroyed bricks then proceded to battle in a tournament and win.

 

A Indian Sufi who lift over a ton over his head. Noted in Steve Barnes novel "Gorgon Dreams"

 

My Tai Chi Instructor sending participants flying accross the room with a gentle touch.

 

Me catching a base ball thown at the back of my head by a ticked off pitcher without turning around.

 

The human body is an amazing thing and I don't think it's limits are truely understood. I wonder what our true limits are.

 

Cheers

 

QM

 

All of which could be done in Hero by a character with only martial arts maneuvers, a couple of DCs, skills, CV levels, and nothing even approaching actual "super powers" as defined in the system. None of which would be remotely enough to make a viable charater in a supers campaign.

[nexus]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Well, the upper limit of human ability in most characteristics is 30 or so. With a few DCs that can make you pretty formidable. I just ignore it personally (comics are full of Martial Artist that can stand toe to toe with supers for whatever reason), but I understand that's not an option for you. I play at a lower level so its not such a big problem. Seems like you're going to have to declare that "Skill based Martial Artist" isn't a viable concept in your game.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

It's a matter of genre, plain and simple.

 

The Batman you're describing is Detective Comics Batman, Street Level Batman, I Never Set Foot Out Of Gotham City Batman. Dark Champions Batman, if you prefer. 150 point, all-skills, no points spent for equipment Batman. He is, in fact, a darn good fighter ... for a street level character.

 

Now, we move Batman into Justice League Batman, 350 point pay for your equipment Batman. Now, he's downright scary ... his street-level version would be roadkill in no time. However, because the genre (or power-level, if you wish) is different, he is fully capable of going toe-to-toe with supers in a fistfight.

 

Now, we go to DBZ. Cosmic Level Worldbeaters. More Points Than Most People Want To Think About. Batman doesn't have one of these versions (that we've seen). DBZ also has its little genre conventions in that virtually ALL superpowers come from chi manipulation. However, if you were to add the thousands of points in Chi powers to Batman that people like Goku have, Batman would easily kick their asses simply by virtue of the fact that NINETY-NINE PERCENT OF THE DRAGONBALL Z CHARACTERS ARE COMPLETE IDIOTS and have the tactical sense of a learning-impaired box turtle.

 

(Or, alternately, in a no-Chi zone where the DBZ cast can't power-up, shoot energy blasts, or otherwise manifest their Chi powers, Batman would kick their asses. Your call.)

 

On the other hand, this fits nicely into the 'Who would win in a fight, a Star Destroyer or the Enterprise-D?' kind of geekdom ... it's an apples and oranges situation because the two have no bearing on one another. Anime/Manga is nothing like American comic books and neither serves as any kind of measuring stick for the other.

 

(Misc. Note: This is coming from someone who is neutral on DBZ and really doesn't find Batman all that interesting, so I hope this can be considered something of an 'unbiased' opinion.)

[Vorsch]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

If normal martial artists can do the same damage as bricks with higher spd and cvs then why have bricks?

 

Basic MA str 20, stike +2d6, martial weapon +2d6, MA DC +2d6

 

10d6 normal 12d6 with Off strike,

 

As most games have a DC limit this fairly hoses the Brick who at str 60 has no place to go, no boxing, no weapons, no MA dc, no str ( oh and seldom allowed dex 30 spd 6 ). Oh yes he can use haymaker......yeah

 

In comics the MA distracts the big bad, and then gets his mate super strong guy/ ultra blast girl to actually knock the guy out.

 

Point being he does not go out and develop chi skills to compete at that level, if one MA has it then they will all try and learn it. Reason they dont is that it dosent fit the sub genre of MA fighters, its a convention like all the others.

 

They simply dont mix

[RDU Neil]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

If normal martial artists can do the same damage as bricks with higher spd and cvs then why have bricks?

 

Basic MA str 20, stike +2d6, martial weapon +2d6, MA DC +2d6

 

10d6 normal 12d6 with Off strike,

 

As most games have a DC limit this fairly hoses the Brick who at str 60 has no place to go, no boxing, no weapons, no MA dc, no str ( oh and seldom allowed dex 30 spd 6 ). Oh yes he can use haymaker......yeah

 

In comics the MA distracts the big bad, and then gets his mate super strong guy/ ultra blast girl to actually knock the guy out.

 

Point being he does not go out and develop chi skills to compete at that level, if one MA has it then they will all try and learn it. Reason they dont is that it dosent fit the sub genre of MA fighters, its a convention like all the others.

 

They simply dont mix

 

Exactly... which is why I started this thread in the first place... just to ask how others reconcile this genre mix that often causes such conflicts.

 

And to someone's post earlier... I have had to say that consistency means that the "normal human level master" probably can't stand up to higher level superhuman combat... not that playing those characters in the shadows of the big guns wouldn't be interesting... but essentially that mixing the two would require certain players to be comfortable having characters totally outclassed in power. They could have cool contacts and strategies, etc., but when it came down to the big brawl... they shouldn't expect to be mixing it up with the big bads. Now, certain players like that kind of challenge, and can play the street level guy doing his thing on the fringes, taking out thugs, finding the secret plans, whatever... but most won't like it, and feel left out. To those I say, "Then maybe the street level guy isn't your cuppa for this campaign... lets make you Ultra Mega Blast guy... you'll have more fun."

[nexus]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Exactly... which is why I started this thread in the first place... just to ask how others reconcile this genre mix that often causes such conflicts.

 

And to someone's post earlier... I have had to say that consistency means that the "normal human level master" probably can't stand up to higher level superhuman combat... not that playing those characters in the shadows of the big guns wouldn't be interesting... but essentially that mixing the two would require certain players to be comfortable having characters totally outclassed in power. They could have cool contacts and strategies, etc., but when it came down to the big brawl... they shouldn't expect to be mixing it up with the big bads. Now, certain players like that kind of challenge, and can play the street level guy doing his thing on the fringes, taking out thugs, finding the secret plans, whatever... but most won't like it, and feel left out. To those I say, "Then maybe the street level guy isn't your cuppa for this campaign... lets make you Ultra Mega Blast guy... you'll have more fun."

 

You really can't reconcile it. You have to either ignore or forbid the character concept. If you're going to limit the MA concept to "normal human levels" (which actually are more like Heroic Levels in Hero) then yeah, in raw combat he's going to overshadowed. I just ignore it (Humans can, with intensive training push themselves to a level where they can compete with superhumans. It takes a lifetime of devotion, training and focus but it can be done), but that's not for everyone.

 

As for why have bricks if everyone is allowed the same damage caps? Well, why have bricks if you have can have Blaster man that can do do the same damage and do it at range? Strength is more than Damage. The brick could do things the MA can't (Strength Tricks), he would likely still have much higher defenses. There's nothing that says he can't have competative CVs. It boils down to a style thing. One character is thematically different from the other. Most players I've seen have been satisified with that for the most part.

 

The other option is to divide up your caps according to concept or maybe develop a rule of X type house rule so really high damage guy has to be slower or something like that. I've tried that and it works pretty well to getting some diversity among the PCs instead of everyone haveing the exact same thing. One GM I played under defined MA DCs as being based on skill and knowing where to hit the target and they simply didn't apply to some things. Breaking walls, foci, robots, extremely alien beings, etc. You want do those things. Buy an HTH attack. It was arbitrary but it did make the Brick more distinct.

 

If you are going to include the MA, but limit them one thing to remeber is to sometimes include somebody, some one significant that they can actually hurt. Not just thugs or random VIPER agents, but an opposing MA, a energy blaster that doesn't fly, something along those lines. Not every bad guy should have campaign max defenses. You're an experienced GM and I'm sure you realize that, but it bears mentioning.

 

Going strictly by what I've seen of your posts so far, RCU Neil, I've gotten the impression you like to really emphasize the difference the human and the superhuman. Assuming such, I would reccomend the path of just not allowing "Extremely skilled human" as a player character type.

[assault]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

If normal martial artists can do the same damage as bricks with higher spd and cvs then why have bricks?

 

Basic MA str 20, stike +2d6, martial weapon +2d6, MA DC +2d6

 

10d6 normal 12d6 with Off strike,

 

As most games have a DC limit this fairly hoses the Brick who at str 60 has no place to go, no boxing, no weapons, no MA dc, no str ( oh and seldom allowed dex 30 spd 6 ). Oh yes he can use haymaker......yeah

 

The Brick you have described is a Brick with no combat training, that is, a lousy fighter. They probably _should_ be able to be outfought by a Batman equivalent.

 

On the other hand, they can suck up damage in a way the martial artist can't. That's why I prefer playing them.

[nexus]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

The MA can also loose his weapon, be entangled or grabbed by something his 20 strength can't break. His biggest attack which is at reduced CV (not hugely so, but it is lower) is equal to the Brick's base damage which he can push or Haymaker. The brick will likely have higher defenses and the combat options that strength allows, purchased or otherwise. Bricks should be doing Shockwave attacks, throwing cars and stuff like that. A flyer sniping at you? A MA is pretty screwed. She can dodge. A Brick can throw a bus or, if they're strong enough, jump up there and wack him. The Brick and the MA can coordinate attacks to increase both their effectiveness. MA throws the target and the Brick Haymakers.

[GrooveD70]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I have two players who both have "concepts" of their character being "the best martial artist around" and one makes a Shang-Chi type (example folks... don't start quoting Master of Kung Fu issues now) and another makes "Fist Of the Whirlwind" who has focused his ki to such an extent he can walk on air (fly, superleap) hit men by hitting the air toward them (energy blast), and move like the wind (desolid, or force field).

 

Now the first guy is all in the mode of the western idea of human fighter... but he is TOTALLY outclassed by the second guy in terms of power. The first guy can't justify (and yes, I very much control the amount of damage a character can do, based on their concept in my games) more than seven to 9 dice of damage with maybe find weakness... while the other guy could essentially justify massive energy blasts of 15-20 d6... 30 pt FF, etc. Both built on 350 points, but one clearly superior to the other... and thus you are shafting an entire genre character concept....

 

 

I think you stated your own problem. You either have to seperate the genres or allow the human MA's to beef up their Damage Classes. Point caps balance the game and its only fair that its the same for all archetypes. I love real Martial Arts and Comics, Anime and Cinema are nothing like real fighting. But even in real life practicing chikung takes alot of training time from training speed power and timing. In my mind thats what Batman-types would focus on.(have more points to spend on) Goku throws a 12d6 fireball Batman throw a 12d6 exploding batarang. Works fine. You have to suspend alot of disbeleif to even read comics.

[Storn]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I play with RDU Neil.

 

I am probably responsible for some of the strains that have come up.

 

I have a martial arts background, no significant, but enough to know the various styles of the world... I also draw a significant amount of martial arts illustration.

 

And what NO ONE is getting to is that, sure... you can mechanically have a Skilled Martial Artist w/ no chi powers have the same CAMPAIGN EFFECTIVENESS (not just combat) with a chi powered martial artist of the same points.

 

But Shang Chi, no matter how many xp you put on him should ever be able to destroy a tank. Period. Snap the lock on the hatch to get into said tank? sure. But destroy? No.

 

Anime/Manga/Chi hero, with enough points, should be able to destroy a tank. Why not?

 

So. Shang Chi can have find weakness out the yin yang, he can have skill levels out the yin yang (which, by the rules, you can trade for MORE damage), he can have every KS: know style, every manuever... and he still cannot destroy the tank. Which means, YOU have to limit his raw damage, the amount of dice, in order to keep to concept. Shang Chi cannot have a 15d6 attack with Find Weakness... or the tank gets destroyed.

 

Now. Shang Chi and Anime Chi fight. Because Anime Chi is doing EBs and punches of 15 - 20 dice, totally within concept. One tag and Shang Chi is lights out. Now, I don't really have a problem with that if I was the Shang Chi character.

 

So to my mind, the problem is not Normal vs Killing damage, or the limits of character concepts, or the really cheap utility of martial arts maneuvers and Strength Stat....

 

... the problem is How Things Break That Don't Hit Back (apologies to Bruce). I have never been happy with how Champions handles property damage. I've seen bullet proof windows hold back mulitple attacks from experienced (close to 400 pt) SUPER heroes. I've seen door knobs that shruged off 10d6 attacks and 40 str TK. I've seen buildings fall down, only because I have a very cool GM... not because of good mechanics that facilitate whether a building stands or falls.

 

It always seem that walls, cars, file cabinets, tanks and buildings are either WAY too tough... or WAY too flimsy. I've never seen a good, consistent benchmarks to handle the amazingly, almost infinite SFX of Champions attacks.

 

This is one of the things that seems more consistent in comics... albeit, a character handled by A writer... multiple writers have mulitple takes on how much Spider man can lift or how thick of a manacle Cap America can break. But in the hands of one writer, a character seems to have consistency. The randomness of breaking an object in Champions seems inconsistent. And illogical. A 3d6 bullet will destroy a human target. But a 3d6 bullet is going to put a hole ina wall and that is it. The wall ain't gonna do a Jericho.

 

So why can't Shang Chi have a 15d6 punch that will take out Anime Chi lad, and yet not take out the tank? If we handwave the 3d6 bullet, who's damage exceeds the walls, and the wall still stands due to sfx?

 

Hero does not really address this truly thorny issue except to leave it to the hand waving of "its SFX".

 

If we changed the way things break. If their was more thought given to how sfx of the attack changes the dynamic of the effect and this was bundled with a cleaner, easier, maybe more plot driven mechanic.... Then the benchmarks of how combat effective one character vs. another actually becomes easier.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Here's something I was wondering. as there ever been a "Streetfighter" style anime martial artist in the mainstream comics? I don't think so (Bu I might be wrong). I think you have to decide what Genre your game is in and stick to it. As RDUNeil was lamenting the two Genre's can't be seemlessly integrated. I'm not saying you can't have a Streetfighter in your DC Universe campaign, but the guy (Player) has to understand that his powers are metagene orginated and not "Ch'i Control". If he wants to be one of the best martial artists in the world in addition to having great superpowers then he has to follow the 2DC max, house rules and such.

Now if I was playing a Streetfighter campaing, Captain America would behave more like CapCom vs Marvel Captain America than Avengers Captain America...FINAL JUSTICE!!

I would expect Batman to playout the same with attacks like BATARANG BARRAGE! and Cape driven Teleport maneuvers.

[nexus]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I think the "real weapon" limitation was a small attempt to address this. It basically says the attack's special effect is such that it might not be as "effective" as it should be in some circumstances. Based on what the Gm wants to apply. I mentioned earlier in this thread (I think) limiting MA DCs in much the same way.

[nexus]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Here's something I was wondering. as there ever been a "Streetfighter" style anime martial artist in the mainstream comics? I don't think so (Bu I might be wrong). I think you have to decide what Genre your game is in and stick to it. As RDUNeil was lamenting the two Genre's can't be seemlessly integrated. I'm not saying you can't have a Streetfighter in your DC Universe campaign, but the guy (Player) has to understand that his powers are metagene orginated and not "Ch'i Control". If he wants to be one of the best martial artists in the world in addition to having great superpowers then he has to follow the 2DC max, house rules and such.

Now if I was playing a Streetfighter campaing, Captain America would behave more like CapCom vs Marvel Captain America than Avengers Captain America...FINAL JUSTICE!!

I would expect Batman to playout the same with attacks like BATARANG BARRAGE! and Cape driven Teleport maneuvers.

 

Off topic, but I have a few "Streetfighter" type Martial Artists in my games (which I feel are close to mainstream comics). Their powers are Chi based abilities developed by training. But access to Ch'i powers has long since been in the background of campaign world. Not all martial artists develop them as they take years of intensive training and/or an almost fanatical level of devotion (similar to learning magic) but they're possible. Its entirely possible to be a very good martial artist and just never take it to the next level and develop flashy Chi powers. (Extra Damage classes are an expression of skill and unconsious Chi manipulation in most of my games).

[Enforcer84]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Off topic' date=' but I have a few "Streetfighter" type Martial Artists in my games (which I feel are close to mainstream comics). Their powers are Chi based abilities developed by training. But access to Ch'i powers has long since been in the background of campaign world. Not all martial artists develop them as they take years of intensive training and/or an almost fanatical level of devotion (similar to learning magic) but they're possible. Its entirely possible to be a very good martial artist and just never take it to the next level and develop flashy Chi powers. (Extra Damage classes are an expression of skill and unconsious Chi manipulation in most of my games).[/quote']

Oh, I wasn't saying that Streetfighter wasn't mainstream, I was saying that their Ch'i based abilities have not been used in DC or Marvel universes for the most part (with apologies to Iron Fist), in those universes the pinnacle of martial arts achievement is strictly physical. At least as far as I have seen.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I play with RDU Neil.

 

I am probably responsible for some of the strains that have come up.

 

I have a martial arts background, no significant, but enough to know the various styles of the world... I also draw a significant amount of martial arts illustration.

 

And what NO ONE is getting to is that, sure... you can mechanically have a Skilled Martial Artist w/ no chi powers have the same CAMPAIGN EFFECTIVENESS (not just combat) with a chi powered martial artist of the same points.

 

But Shang Chi, no matter how many xp you put on him should ever be able to destroy a tank. Period. Snap the lock on the hatch to get into said tank? sure. But destroy? No.

 

Anime/Manga/Chi hero, with enough points, should be able to destroy a tank. Why not?

 

So. Shang Chi can have find weakness out the yin yang, he can have skill levels out the yin yang (which, by the rules, you can trade for MORE damage), he can have every KS: know style, every manuever... and he still cannot destroy the tank. Which means, YOU have to limit his raw damage, the amount of dice, in order to keep to concept. Shang Chi cannot have a 15d6 attack with Find Weakness... or the tank gets destroyed.

 

Now. Shang Chi and Anime Chi fight. Because Anime Chi is doing EBs and punches of 15 - 20 dice, totally within concept. One tag and Shang Chi is lights out. Now, I don't really have a problem with that if I was the Shang Chi character.

 

So to my mind, the problem is not Normal vs Killing damage, or the limits of character concepts, or the really cheap utility of martial arts maneuvers and Strength Stat....

 

... the problem is How Things Break That Don't Hit Back (apologies to Bruce). I have never been happy with how Champions handles property damage. I've seen bullet proof windows hold back mulitple attacks from experienced (close to 400 pt) SUPER heroes. I've seen door knobs that shruged off 10d6 attacks and 40 str TK. I've seen buildings fall down, only because I have a very cool GM... not because of good mechanics that facilitate whether a building stands or falls.

 

It always seem that walls, cars, file cabinets, tanks and buildings are either WAY too tough... or WAY too flimsy. I've never seen a good, consistent benchmarks to handle the amazingly, almost infinite SFX of Champions attacks.

 

This is one of the things that seems more consistent in comics... albeit, a character handled by A writer... multiple writers have mulitple takes on how much Spider man can lift or how thick of a manacle Cap America can break. But in the hands of one writer, a character seems to have consistency. The randomness of breaking an object in Champions seems inconsistent. And illogical. A 3d6 bullet will destroy a human target. But a 3d6 bullet is going to put a hole ina wall and that is it. The wall ain't gonna do a Jericho.

 

So why can't Shang Chi have a 15d6 punch that will take out Anime Chi lad, and yet not take out the tank? If we handwave the 3d6 bullet, who's damage exceeds the walls, and the wall still stands due to sfx?

 

Hero does not really address this truly thorny issue except to leave it to the hand waving of "its SFX".

 

If we changed the way things break. If their was more thought given to how sfx of the attack changes the dynamic of the effect and this was bundled with a cleaner, easier, maybe more plot driven mechanic.... Then the benchmarks of how combat effective one character vs. another actually becomes easier.

Well, if its porperty damage you are against, make DC's olny vs organics, or what have you. Sure, Shang Chi can stun anyone. But he can't bash a tank, half his damage is vs organics only. This also makes his martial arts mastery usless against Mechanon and any Earth Elementals, but he can still put the hurt on Wind Warrior.

 

 

I think I agree with RDUNeil though about the Genre's colliding ugly instead of integrating seemlessly, though.

[proditor]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

If normal martial artists can do the same damage as bricks with higher spd and cvs then why have bricks?

 

Basic MA str 20, stike +2d6, martial weapon +2d6, MA DC +2d6

 

10d6 normal 12d6 with Off strike,

 

As most games have a DC limit this fairly hoses the Brick who at str 60 has no place to go, no boxing, no weapons, no MA dc, no str ( oh and seldom allowed dex 30 spd 6 ). Oh yes he can use haymaker......yeah

 

In comics the MA distracts the big bad, and then gets his mate super strong guy/ ultra blast girl to actually knock the guy out.

 

Point being he does not go out and develop chi skills to compete at that level, if one MA has it then they will all try and learn it. Reason they dont is that it dosent fit the sub genre of MA fighters, its a convention like all the others.

 

They simply dont mix

Most of the time, yes. But there are exceptions to the rule. I'm discounting the Cage/Rand team-up, since ole Iron Fist is very far from the mark of "Normal" and Luke often sets up Danny for the knock out blow.

 

In the rest of the world, there aren't that many "normal" martial artists that exist in comic level campaigns (Defined as a basic range from Avengers/JLA down to say New Warriors/Teen Titans) each of the normal martial artists in those groups has an edge. Cap has his shield, Bats has his toys, as does Robin/Nightwing. Night Thrasher had the utility belt knock-off backpack that included C-4 and an Uzi not to mention having a minor strength enhancing exoskeleton in his battle armor. The thing is that normal martial artists just don't exist in normal comics. The guys who go toe to toe against the bad guys are in that "Best of the best" category and usually supplement that training with gear. And yes, Thor hits harder than Cap, but the Avengers have many many times set up Cap to take someone out. They also aren't covered by being the same rough points cost either. Same with Black Panther, Night Thrasher, Robin, etc. etc.

 

Now Karate Kid...the current one. Well, he's still martial thrown daxamites, and just last issue beat up an entire prison by himself. He again to me is by no means normal, not even close.

 

So the real question here is how much realism do you want in your super game? I've studied some myself, but I don't allow the reality of what I know to color my enjoyment of Karate kid taking out an entire prison. That's just a convention of the genre. Because honestly, Eddie Arcadian said it best when it comes to real world and being a "normal" martial artist "A forty-five is gonna put an end to all this kung-fu crap!" All hail Berry Gordy.

[Storn]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

In the rest of the world, there aren't that many "normal" martial artists that exist in comic level campaigns

 

This is not a good arguement in the context of this thread. Neil has stated up front, that DBZ or Mortal Kombat or Tekken (which we actually have several Tekken characters running around in RDU land) are viable CONCEPTS for superheroes.

 

The boundries of super hero JUST meaning comic book have been already, blown wide open. For RDU, I'm making this arguement, not other peoples campaigns... but I know RDU really damn well .

 

Anime and manga and wuxia films are about superheroes, IMO, just a slightly different trappings and sfx.

 

But Bubblegum Crisis is really no different in basic concepts than the Guardian armor of Iron Man comics. Or Iron Man himself... sure, its a team of 3 women... but it still is Power Armor. They are even mentioned as "vigilantes" in the series. And their relationship with the police is tenuous at best.. a total super hero trope if I ever saw one.

 

Ninja Scroll, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (and similar manga, films, video games and books)... all of these.. have people using SUPER powers. Powers beyond that of normal man. They leap, they fly, they take and deal damage that no mere mortal can hope to do.

 

These character CONCEPTS are perfectly viable as superheroes, even if their trappings are not (fantasy, dark ages China isn't the backdrop for most superhero stories, for example). But transplanting the core concept of character? Why not?

 

We have players coming to us and saying I WANNA play THAT! And point to an anime/manga/wuxia/video game concept. I wanna play that in RDU! How can one say "no"?

 

So to just rely on comics as the style/genre bible is not tackling the problem where it needs to be tackled. We've already gone beyond comics as our style/genre guide.

[Evil Toki]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

So what is the actual problem let them play it... why limit humanity unless you purposely want to show how much normal humans suck... personally if you want a butt-kicking martial arts master without chi powers then go for it... if you want one with it, go for it... don't pass the campaign limits and have fun... why limit a concept... because if this is RDU specific then you guys already know your answer it seems...

 

What do you expect us to dp, change your minds? I don't play with specific hard-line limits on humanity, but you do, cool. I think wuxia is all kinds of superheroic too, and it should be an honest source of inspiration.

 

Bleh forgot what my point was...

[Katherine]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

This is not a good arguement in the context of this thread. Neil has stated up front, that DBZ or Mortal Kombat or Tekken (which we actually have several Tekken characters running around in RDU land) are viable CONCEPTS for superheroes.

 

The boundries of super hero JUST meaning comic book have been already, blown wide open. For RDU, I'm making this arguement, not other peoples campaigns... but I know RDU really damn well .

 

Anime and manga and wuxia films are about superheroes, IMO, just a slightly different trappings and sfx.

 

But Bubblegum Crisis is really no different in basic concepts than the Guardian armor of Iron Man comics. Or Iron Man himself... sure, its a team of 3 women... but it still is Power Armor. They are even mentioned as "vigilantes" in the series. And their relationship with the police is tenuous at best.. a total super hero trope if I ever saw one.

 

Ninja Scroll, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (and similar manga, films, video games and books)... all of these.. have people using SUPER powers. Powers beyond that of normal man. They leap, they fly, they take and deal damage that no mere mortal can hope to do.

 

These character CONCEPTS are perfectly viable as superheroes, even if their trappings are not (fantasy, dark ages China isn't the backdrop for most superhero stories, for example). But transplanting the core concept of character? Why not?

 

We have players coming to us and saying I WANNA play THAT! And point to an anime/manga/wuxia/video game concept. I wanna play that in RDU! How can one say "no"?

 

So to just rely on comics as the style/genre bible is not tackling the problem where it needs to be tackled. We've already gone beyond comics as our style/genre guide.

 

I'm a bit of a newbie but I don't understand what the problem is then? Let people play those concepts and use what the get points for. Or limit what you allow "normal" humans to do and just inform that those concepts can be played but won't be competitive in the purely physical arena after awhile. Its sounds like want to limit what normal humans can do to semi realistic levels, yet at the same time have them be fully competitive with superhumans. Thats not really quite possible as I understand it. I don't play with limits based on concept. If you have a good backstory to explain it. Why not? Its a comic book but if you are playing in a more hardline universe I can respect that, but from reading over this thread I'm not sure if you seeking suggestions, affirmation or converts?

[Storn]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

What do you expect us to dp, change your minds?

 

No, Toki, Neil stated this pretty clearly at the beginning. We are not the only ones who deal with this issue. Other campaigns do too, ever been to Surbrook's site? He's got hundreds of anime/manga/video game characters... many of them quite useful in their stats for many super hero campaigns.

 

What Neil was asking was that IF anyone else had tackled this issue and if so, what were their solutions. Certainly Doug Moench (writer of Master of Kung Fu) and Chuck Dixon (Nightwing, Robin, Batman and now Richard Dragon) and many, many other writers, had to tackle this issue. Since their flesh and blood creations were running around with Gods of Thunder, Supreme Sorcerers, guns aplenty and Martial Artists with that touch of "something more".

 

But as we talk through this, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that maybe you cannot play a "normal" martial artist like Shang Chi and be in stories consistently with folks who fly and and have energy beams. A walk on role? sure. But at some point, Shang Chi would have to develop "chi powers" in order to be part of the fabric of a superhero world. Nightwing and Batman can justify a lot of point expenditures and combat effectiveness in gadgets...

[caris]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Forgive me, but if you are wanting to tackle the problem at the source, than why are you all hashing it out here? Forget everything else, this is really a matter of your gaming group wanting to change the premise of your game. Notice what I'm saying here is premise not genre. Looking at the Champions Genre book, Aaron talked about choosing the sources of powers for a campaign and not all sources are appropriate for all campaigns. We had RDU had defined the options available for super powers in his game, and "Chi" powers wasn't one of them. This is not to say that they are not viable concepts in general, but they weren't viable for his game.

 

What I'm percieving here is a definite feel that on some levels RDU is resisting this change. RDU had a definite idea of what he wanted training to do. Some (or one) of the players wanted to bring in a concept that broke that idea. RDU wanting his players to have fun and liking the concept in general wants to allow the character, but by allowing the character he is trampling all over some basic campaign premises and assumptions. He came here looking for ideas on how to reconcile the two, but he seems unwilling to accept any of the suggestions made. I suspect, because in some way all the suggestions are a compromise. Personally, I liked the suggestion that "Chi" powers be kept to the same kind of caps that other Martial Arts abilities are being capped at. It seems to make sense to me. I still find the idea of someone punching the air and doing 9DCs of damage to someone thirty feet away based on just their training, danged impressive.

 

What I've seen in this thread is that this isn't an "incompatiple genre" thing, but that this is a campaign thing. The question is simply is your campaign going to allow MA training to provide super powers, and if so at what levels can those super powers achieve? Depending on how you want to define your genres Bubble Gum Crisis and DBZ are in the same genre, but the characters in both those series would be very out of place if they tried to cross over. It isn't so much the genre that is out of whack, but the way the worlds were set up.

 

So it sounds to me that your group (or at least all the people with a vested stake in what a Martial Artist can and can not do) needs to sit down and hash out what options best fit your communal senses of common, dramatic and balance.

[Storn]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I' Its sounds like want to limit what normal humans can do to semi realistic levels, yet at the same time have them be fully competitive with superhumans

 

yeah, Katherine, I think you hit the nail on the head. Yes, Neil wants semi realistic levels (I believe) and yet still be story/combat interesting and relevant as fully powered up superheroes of roughly the same point cost.

 

Because our simulation model, comics, allows for this. And even greater inequities to boot (Robin (Tim Drake) teams up with Superman or Wonder Woman for example, way below Batman's gravitas and "points".) Due to writer protections and manipulations, but that is our simulation model. Champions, the game system, doesn't quite reflect the simulation in this case.

 

This is an issue that *I* think (although Neil might disagree with me) is avoided by Mutants and Masterminds precisely because of the degree of abstraction in the damage. I think that DC Heroes, because of the logrithimic scale it used, was more suited for characters of vastly different ranges in abilities... yet as always, when confronted with that situation, it is up to the GM to make each character have some time in the spotlight, not just the most powerful. But Champions/Hero has very SPECIFIC damage resolution. Greater granularity than 90% of the games out there. Don't get me wrong, I think it is brilliant. But I see the problem that Neil has because of it.

 

I still think the problem is not capping Shang Chi's dice. It is dealing with how things are broken, how things are lifted and how that translates into how damage is done.

[Katherine]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Geek Nitpick

 

Bubblegum Crisis and Dragonball Z are not the same genre. They are the same medium. Anime is a medium, like movies or novels. There is some overlap but all anime is NOT the same genre. Like The Avengers and Archie are not the same genre even though they share a medium (there is, addmittedly less of a gulf). Vegita would be as out of place in BGC as Hawkeye would be in the Archie comics (IMO).