Reconciling Manga & Batman

[Evil Toki]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

No' date=' Toki, Neil stated this pretty clearly at the beginning. We are not the only ones who deal with this issue. Other campaigns do too, ever been to Surbrook's site? He's got hundreds of anime/manga/video game characters... many of them quite useful in their stats for many super hero campaigns.[/quote']

 

I have not had this problem. I just roll with the punches and go for it. I have never been to that site, but I use anime and manga concepts all the time, with some wuxia for fun, along with more tried and true comic concepts. It is all just a matter of style.

 

What Neil was asking was that IF anyone else had tackled this issue and if so' date=' what were their solutions. Certainly Doug Moench (writer of Master of Kung Fu) and Chuck Dixon (Nightwing, Robin, Batman and now Richard Dragon) and many, many other writers, had to tackle this issue. Since their flesh and blood creations were running around with Gods of Thunder, Supreme Sorcerers, guns aplenty and Martial Artists with that touch of "something more".[/quote']

 

Again a matter of style. Do you want your supreme martial artists to take out the Brick in your stories, then go for it? Do you want normal martial artists to feel great until they fight the mutant, combat monster and get their arse handed to them, then great. If DBZ or other supernatural martial arts is the top tier then make it the top tier, again being a game, this all comes down to concept and style.

 

But as we talk through this' date=' I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that maybe you cannot play a "normal" martial artist like Shang Chi and be in stories consistently with folks who fly and and have energy beams. A walk on role? sure. But at some point, Shang Chi would have to develop "chi powers" in order to be part of the fabric of a superhero world. Nightwing and Batman can justify a lot of point expenditures and combat effectiveness in gadgets...[/quote']

 

You could in my game, I have no qualms with it. I actually have a martial artist in my current Legacy game, and she can hold her own against some of the fiercest combatants in the game... course she has some mutant healing factor too... but her main thing is martial arts...

 

Again I think it is all in the style.

[Susano]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

This is not a good arguement in the context of this thread. Neil has stated up front, that DBZ or Mortal Kombat or Tekken (which we actually have several Tekken characters running around in RDU land) are viable CONCEPTS for superheroes.

 

Something I tried to state in NINJA HERO (see page 9). Look at it this way -- if Karate Kid can take out an entire prison by himself, how is that any different from your typical high-powerd wuixa swordsman taking on a small army all by himself (example: ASHES OF TIME), or Jubei whacking on a flood of hopping ninja? (example: NINJA SCROLL)

 

The boundries of super hero JUST meaning comic book have been already, blown wide open. For RDU, I'm making this arguement, not other peoples campaigns... but I know RDU really damn well .

 

Anime and manga and wuxia films are about superheroes, IMO, just a slightly different trappings and sfx.

 

Basically. Western supers hurl "bio-energy" blasts, lasers, plasma, electromagnetics, and so on. Anime & manga characters tend to use "ch'i," which translates to "fire," although some use electrical attacks and the like. And odds are, the anime guy is a martial artist, while the Western super is just about anything.

 

But Bubblegum Crisis is really no different in basic concepts than the Guardian armor of Iron Man comics. Or Iron Man himself... sure, its a team of 3 women... but it still is Power Armor. They are even mentioned as "vigilantes" in the series. And their relationship with the police is tenuous at best.. a total super hero trope if I ever saw one.

 

Ahem... that's 4 women. You're forgetting Nene. Although she's fairly easy to forget in the orginal series. Being about as useful (in the series anyway) as a screen doors on a submarine.

 

Ninja Scroll, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (and similar manga, films, video games and books)... all of these.. have people using SUPER powers. Powers beyond that of normal man. They leap, they fly, they take and deal damage that no mere mortal can hope to do.

 

These character CONCEPTS are perfectly viable as superheroes, even if their trappings are not (fantasy, dark ages China isn't the backdrop for most superhero stories, for example). But transplanting the core concept of character? Why not?

 

We have players coming to us and saying I WANNA play THAT! And point to an anime/manga/wuxia/video game concept. I wanna play that in RDU! How can one say "no"?

 

So to just rely on comics as the style/genre bible is not tackling the problem where it needs to be tackled. We've already gone beyond comics as our style/genre guide.

 

A while back there was talk about a big e-book of DEF and BOD for a host of house hold objects. I think that project has either been put on hold or is no longer being worked on. It strikes me as being a useful thing to have. It also could be used to address problems of breaking things. TUB goes into that and talks about dropping buildings and the like as well, but it might be nice to have something that looks into the subject. Interestingly, I had been thinking about what you might put into THE ULTIMATE ENERGY PROJECTOR, which lead to some thoughts on energy and energy SFX, which then lead to the idea of THE ULTIMATE SPECIAL EFFECT, a book on special effects and what they do, both to living beings and to the environment. One thing that struck me was many attacks would have various linked carrier attacks. For example, an electrical attack could have a linked Dispel versus electrical devices, a Drain versus DEX for people, and so on. Either that, or grant assorted 5-15 point powers for free to an attack due to SFX (probably not a good idea now that I think about it). Another option would be to build standard sets of Advantages and Disadvantages for different SFX. For example, a laser might get Armor Piercing, No Range Modifier, Beam, and No Knockback automatically.

 

Speaking of building bashing, I will admit I found the rules for smashing buildings a bit frustrating in TUB, as it seemed a little too GM's choice dependent. OTOH, the living in a fragile world section worked well.

 

On last thought -- any else have the Firebird GAC? There was a section in there on how people could take damage from hitting someone (or something) and failing to do BODY, STUN, or KB to it. The damage was like a Side Effect, no defenses applied, and you could get hurt simply by hitting someone with a high enough PD. Much like the comics where Joe Normal punches Superman and breaks his fingers...

[Storn]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

 

Bubblegum Crisis and Dragonball Z are not the same genre.

 

Of course. I don't disagree.

 

But both are totally viable as base concepts for superheroes. As much, IMO, as Pulp characters like Tarzan and the Shadow, to the comics.

 

BGC is very much a cyberpunk world, but they are superheroes. DBZ would have no problem having Supes pop over for a visit. They are superheroes of a particular flavor. Tekken would not strain if Nightwing showed up for a training session or two.

[Evil Toki]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Geek Nitpick

 

Bubblegum Crisis and Dragonball Z are not the same genre. They are the same medium. Anime is a medium, like movies or novels. There is some overlap but all anime is NOT the same genre. Like The Avengers and Archie are not the same genre even though they share a medium (there is, addmittedly less of a gulf). Vegita would be as out of place in BGC as Hawkeye would be in the Archie comics (IMO).

Very good point... hell Lodoss Wars and Dragon Ball Z don't mesh at all... let alone Lain:Serial Experiments or even Witch Hunter Robin... just a medium... not a genre.

[Katherine]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

yeah, Katherine, I think you hit the nail on the head. Yes, Neil wants semi realistic levels (I believe) and yet still be story/combat interesting and relevant as fully powered up superheroes of roughly the same point cost.

 

Because our simulation model, comics, allows for this. And even greater inequities to boot (Robin (Tim Drake) teams up with Superman or Wonder Woman for example, way below Batman's gravitas and "points".) Due to writer protections and manipulations, but that is our simulation model. Champions, the game system, doesn't quite reflect the simulation in this case.

 

This is an issue that *I* think (although Neil might disagree with me) is avoided by Mutants and Masterminds precisely because of the degree of abstraction in the damage. I think that DC Heroes, because of the logrithimic scale it used, was more suited for characters of vastly different ranges in abilities... yet as always, when confronted with that situation, it is up to the GM to make each character have some time in the spotlight, not just the most powerful.

 

I still think the problem is not capping Shang Chi's dice. It is dealing with how things are broken, how things are lifted and how that translates into how damage is done.

 

I don't want to be a downer, but I don't think you can. Not without changing some ground rules of your campagin by limiting Damage Classes in what they do. Maybe "cannot effect materials with high Def than you could bust with your raw strength score or assigning "normal" weapons and objects a vulernerability to super powered attacks (and Extra DC don't count as superpowered attacks). Comics deal with it better because its all at the whim of the writers. Robin will only battle people he can effect and never be succsessfully attacked by anyone that could kill him instantly. They'll always be something for him to do even with Superman in the picture. Its very hard to pull this off in an rpg (In my limited experience) since the enivernment is much harder to control. It can be done but its take scripting and players willing to accept that, yeah, they are weaker than their companions.

 

Its not a failing of Hero (IMO) its just one of those things that doesn't jump from medium to medium very well. I've run into the problem outside of Champions in really any system or setting wheren you've Player character of very big differences in power.

 

Basically, I've gotten to the point I just ignore it. If Kane, the normal martial artist knocks out Dr. Devestation with his offensive strike when Dr. D was bouncing plasma bursts a second ago. He "found a weak spot" or something. Just fiat to explain the game result. Comics are full of unexplained wins, after all.

[Susano]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Very good point... hell Lodoss Wars and Dragon Ball Z don't mesh at all... let alone Lain:Serial Experiments or even Witch Hunter Robin... just a medium... not a genre.

 

Exactly. Yes, anime and manga have a lot of "standard" conventions, mainly dealing with visuals, but it is not a genre all its own. This is why I try to use the term "comic book superheroes" as comic books mean a lot, ranging from Cerebus the Aardvark, to Elfquest, to Usagi Yojimbo, to Hellboy, to Astro City, Watchman, and V for Vendetta.

[dbsousa]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Exactly... which is why I started this thread in the first place... just to ask how others reconcile this genre mix that often causes such conflicts.

 

 

The easiest difference to exploit between Action Hero and Wuxia Lad is the special effects. Action Hero can sneak into the base, render 75 guards unconscious before they can sound an alarm, and disconnect the power supply to the hyper-cannon. Wuxia Boy makes a giant "Whoo-PAH!" sound every time he cracks a guards skull, alerting the other guards, and ensuring that the hyper cannon is fired up and aimed at Wuxia Lad before he can get near it. All of Wuxia Lads powers, including his force field, should be sensede by three sense groups, which make him impossible to go unnoticed anywhere. Action Hero can walk unnoticed in a crowd, and can use all of his abilities without the entire crowd turning to him like his broker was E.F. Hutton.

 

If your concern is simply to give them an even chance of defeating one another in combat, I would require all Wuxia powers to take this Limitation: Requires an Opposed Skill Roll (Power: Wuxia vs KS: Martial Arts) That way, Action Hero has resistance to Chi powers as a result of his martial arts training, and can step through Wuxia Lad's Force Wall, dodge his Manga Blast, and punch him in the nose...

[Vorsch]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Is it so hard to accept that a normal human martial artist is outpowered by a Chi wielding manga character.

 

By definition one of them has superpowers.

[Haerandir]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Is it so hard to accept that a normal human martial artist is outpowered by a Chi wielding manga character.

 

By definition one of them has superpowers.

 

The original issue, as I understand it, was that while one had superpowers and the other didn't, they have the same 'character concept', or perhaps the same 'power origin' would express the concept better. The issue is not so much "It bothers me that 'Goku' is better than 'Shang Chi'," than that "In a universe where 'studying the martial arts' can get you to 'Goku', why would someone go to 'Shang Chi' and then stop? And having stopped short of the ultimate level of mastery, how can they call themselves a 'martial arts master'?"

 

Essentially, this is a conflict that can't be resolved without further definition of the rationale behind 'Chi Powers'. If your definition of 'Chi Powers' is simply 'Mutant/Alien/Magic/etc. Superpowers with a different name', then it is going to create exactly this sort of conflict of conception with 'purely physical martial arts'. The issue appears to be that Neil is either unable or unwilling to dictate a policy of fitting into a clearly defined world background to some of his players, even though he is not only willing but eager to do so with others. My suspicion is that since he clearly is a fan of the 'purely physical martial arts' genre, and not a fan of the 'Chi-based powers martial arts' genre, he's only allowing the second option as a result of player pressure. And, of course, if it doesn't work, he can blame 'the genre' rather than his own decision to apply a double standard to certain character concepts.

 

Consider, for instance, if Neil was a big fan of 'gun-toting action heroes', and allowed that character concept in his game, but imposed hefty restrictions on the amount of damage they could do, because after all, no matter how accurate they are, they're only firing a 9 mm pistol at their opponents. Purely in the interests of promoting 'genre faithfulness'. Then, one of his players comes along and says, "I just saw 'Eraser', starring Arnold Schwarzenneger, and I'd like to play a character with one of those Gauss rifle thingies." Now, Neil isn't a big fan of 'Eraser', but his player wants to play this character, so he eventually agrees to allow it. Now, the player builds a 'gun-toting action hero' just like the ones that already exist, only, because Neil hasn't given any thought to how Gauss rifles work, the player gives him a 20d6 AP EB and a multipower of special attack modes. Then, you know, since he's already 'hi-tech', he gives him some advanced combat armor, an onboard tactical computer, a utility belt VPP, and so on. Suddenly, the character is much more powerful and flexible than the existing 'gun-toting action heroes', and Neil doesn't understand why everyone doesn't start running around with Gauss rifles and power armor.

 

Well, neither do I.

 

When the GM defines certain elements of the game world very tightly, and allows the players to do whatever the hell they want in others, guess which character concepts the players are going to start gravitating to? Unless they have an unusually strong commitment to playing a particular character type, and agree with the GM about how that character type works in all particulars, eventually they're going to want to do something he won't allow to that concept, and if another concept fits their basic conception and is more open to interpretation, that's where they're going to decide to take the character.

 

The way I see it is, there are three ways you can go:

 

1) Define every element of the background to fit your conceptual desires & goals. Pros: Prevents any inconsistencies like the one under discussion. Cons: Creates an immense amount of work for the GM, and runs a high risk of alienating players, especially if they're expecting a 'free-form' game based on a genre like, oh let's say, superheroes...

 

2) Allow a free-form approach, and don't regulate characters for 'conceptual' issues. Limit any GM interventionism to 'play-balance' and 'rules-legality' issues. Pros: Very little prep work required, players will very likely enjoy their freedom. Little likelihood of a character being heavily overshadowed by other characters due to lack of power. Cons: Very little consistency in 'genre simulation', as players will inevitably have different ideas about what constitutes 'faithful representation of the genre'.

 

3) Follow a sort of bastardized hybrid approach, where the GM regulates the things he's willing to put some thought into, but allows players carte blanche in any area that's too much trouble for him to plan out in advance. Pros: Well, as long as nobody wants to do anything the GM has decided to ignore, it works a lot like option one... Only with fewer hassles for the GM. Cons: Some people might want to play Shang Chi, and others might want to play Goku. Brains explode as one is tightly limited by the GM and the other is allowed to rampage around at any power level he pleases with any abilities he likes.

 

Option 3 can work, as long as everyone, but most especially the GM, is willing to shrug their shoulders and soldier on, even in the face of apparent illogic. If you're having trouble reconciling some concepts with others, though, perhaps a different approach would be more appropriate for the genre and/or play group in question.

[Susano]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

The easiest difference to exploit between Action Hero and Wuxia Lad is the special effects. Action Hero can sneak into the base, render 75 guards unconscious before they can sound an alarm, and disconnect the power supply to the hyper-cannon. Wuxia Boy makes a giant "Whoo-PAH!" sound every time he cracks a guards skull, alerting the other guards, and ensuring that the hyper cannon is fired up and aimed at Wuxia Lad before he can get near it. All of Wuxia Lads powers, including his force field, should be sensede by three sense groups, which make him impossible to go unnoticed anywhere. Action Hero can walk unnoticed in a crowd, and can use all of his abilities without the entire crowd turning to him like his broker was E.F. Hutton.

 

If your concern is simply to give them an even chance of defeating one another in combat, I would require all Wuxia powers to take this Limitation: Requires an Opposed Skill Roll (Power: Wuxia vs KS: Martial Arts) That way, Action Hero has resistance to Chi powers as a result of his martial arts training, and can step through Wuxia Lad's Force Wall, dodge his Manga Blast, and punch him in the nose...

 

I'm not sure what wuxia stuff you've been watching, but sure isn't the stuff I've seen.

[dbsousa]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I'm not sure what wuxia stuff you've been watching' date=' but sure isn't the stuff I've seen.[/quote']

I should know better than to use terms so loosely in front of the experts.

 

I was in fact referring to the Goku powers described in the original post. What would you call them?

[BNakagawa]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Ahem... that's 4 women. You're forgetting Nene. Although she's fairly easy to forget in the orginal series. Being about as useful (in the series anyway) as a screen doors on a submarine.

 

Now that's just cruel! She's no combat powerhouse, but she's the team's hacker and perhaps the best placed informant any mercenary team ever had.

 

And a cute redhead! Stats be damned, every team of 3+ women needs a cute redhead!

[Susano]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I should know better than to use terms so loosely in front of the experts.

 

I was in fact referring to the Goku powers described in the original post. What would you call them?

 

Ch'i powers. That's what they are usually called in genre. And for the record, your typical anime/manga/video game ch'i martial artist (be it Ken, Ryu, Midnite Maid, Son Goku, or Ranma) should be able to take the example squad of 72 guys and not alert anyone. Virtually all of these guys are martial arts masters first, and energy blasting master of whup-ass second. As a rule they are stronger than heck (STR 25+), fast (DEX 26-30+), with a high SPD, lots of levels, and a full set of maneuvers. Ch'i powers are just the icing on the cake. Most of them can take scads of abuse as well (Goku is up there with Superman on the "can take it' scale).

 

The problem is one of setting. Which comes back to RDU's comment. Can you fit chi-blasting into the superhero game and not cheapen the Batmen and Shang Chi of the world? One problem is the view of martial arts, I think. Here, in supers comics, martial arts tend to be an added bonus to a character (look at Batman -- world class martial artist or not, he's primarily a detective), while in the East, martial arts is the character's superpower. A mythical martial arts master in the East is expected to be able to throw punches faster than you can see, hurl people about with a mere slap, punch through walls, leap and run great distances, and so on. In the West martial arts mastery usually translates to "fights really good." Now, as we have become more exposed to the legendary powers of martial arts mastery through Hong Kong films and Japanese manga/anime, some older superhero martial artists don't seem to be all that super anymore.

 

So the question (IMO) becomes one of not toning Son Goku down to Shang Chi's level, but can what ch'i powers can I give Shang Chi and still retain the essence of his character?

 

Also, one last point -- using Son Goku as a comparison to anything is pretty absurd. He, if written up exactly as seen in the Dragonball anime and manga, is a Galactic Champions-level martial artist built on thousands of points. Anything he does is going to make everyone else look puny by comparison. A better comparison would be Batman and... oh... just about anyone from Street Fighter II+ (or Ranma 1/2, Tenjo Tenge, Real Bout High School, Guilty Gear X, and so on). These guys are on the 400-500 point range and more in line with what I'd expect to see in average super hero setting.

[caris]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Once again, Katherine, it is a matter of how you define the genre's. I was not defining them as an "anime" genre. They are both basically action adventure stories. I would say that there is actually some similarity in the way the plots are structured.

[GrooveD70]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Is it so hard to accept that a normal human martial artist is outpowered by a Chi wielding manga character.

 

By definition one of them has superpowers.

 

I think that in comics there are heroes who have no real superpowers but the cunning and years of training allow them to whoop on Superpowered characters. I play a Batman-like character and his Off Strike totals to 12d6, but I would never have him kicking tanks. But he can kick Superdewd and say "skin as hard as steel but I can still find his solar plexis" thats good enough for me in a comic RPG. Id be pretty bummed if that wasnt good enough for my GM.

[proditor]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

This is not a good arguement in the context of this thread. Neil has stated up front, that DBZ or Mortal Kombat or Tekken (which we actually have several Tekken characters running around in RDU land) are viable CONCEPTS for superheroes.

 

The boundries of super hero JUST meaning comic book have been already, blown wide open. For RDU, I'm making this arguement, not other peoples campaigns... but I know RDU really damn well .

 

Anime and manga and wuxia films are about superheroes, IMO, just a slightly different trappings and sfx.

 

But Bubblegum Crisis is really no different in basic concepts than the Guardian armor of Iron Man comics. Or Iron Man himself... sure, its a team of 3 women... but it still is Power Armor. They are even mentioned as "vigilantes" in the series. And their relationship with the police is tenuous at best.. a total super hero trope if I ever saw one.

 

Ninja Scroll, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (and similar manga, films, video games and books)... all of these.. have people using SUPER powers. Powers beyond that of normal man. They leap, they fly, they take and deal damage that no mere mortal can hope to do.

 

These character CONCEPTS are perfectly viable as superheroes, even if their trappings are not (fantasy, dark ages China isn't the backdrop for most superhero stories, for example). But transplanting the core concept of character? Why not?

 

We have players coming to us and saying I WANNA play THAT! And point to an anime/manga/wuxia/video game concept. I wanna play that in RDU! How can one say "no"?

 

So to just rely on comics as the style/genre bible is not tackling the problem where it needs to be tackled. We've already gone beyond comics as our style/genre guide.

I was responding specifically to what Vorsch said and since he specifically mentioned "In comics...", that was what I was answering.

 

As to your specific campaign, if the concept of high end ch'i powers is already a known constant, I'm not sure I understand why this is even an issue. Someone elsewhere in the thread mentioned the difference between the western and eastern concepts of "Best fighter in the world" and how the eastern concept embraces powers well beyond what the western mind thinks of as even remotely possible. There was a good example of this in (of all places) an old Top Secret/SI book. There were two "Super soldiers" one of which was a tactical genius, unparalled warrior and bad to the bone mofo. The other was a more eastern mysticism style super agent with powers to cloud men's minds and yes, punch through tanks. They were able to exist in the same context, one was just better in some areas and vice-versa.

 

The rest of the issue is still covered by my examples. If you seriously want a damage cap to keep martial arts "realistic", then do what every other martial artist who hangs around with capes does to stay in the game. Buy gadgets and be a skill monger. Spike Spiegel might not be able to Jeet Kune Do his way around Doomsday, but he could figure out the mystery of who created him and why.

 

I know that your central argument is about damage vs. things that don't hit back, but there are ways to handle that. Enforcer's suggestion of damage vs. organics works fine since we already have the precedent of only vs. inorganics on some of the high end ch'i powers to break weapons and such. The GAC rules for hitting things might work too, but I'm still looking for a copy for something less than 20 bucks, so I can't speak to that one in specific.

 

I guess what I'm really asking here is the following. You said you have moved beyond comics for your campaign concepts. Okay, so that being the case, why does someone think that in a world where martial arts are capped short of being an anime martial artist that a normal martial artist is viable? I mean, from what you've said, you could create an awesome Batman/Spike Spiegel clone with all the extra points that you can't put into martial arts DC and such. If the world setting admits "powered" martial artists and caps the normal guys, then it's kinda hard to be normal and be the best. A non anime fighter could still be the best "normal" martial artist, he just wouldn't be the absolute best.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

 

The problem is one of setting. Which comes back to RDU's comment. Can you fit chi-blasting into the superhero game and not cheapen the Batmen and Shang Chi of the world? One problem is the view of martial arts, I think. Here, in supers comics, martial arts tend to be an added bonus to a character (look at Batman -- world class martial artist or not, he's primarily a detective), while in the East, martial arts is the character's superpower. A mythical martial arts master in the East is expected to be able to throw punches faster than you can see, hurl people about with a mere slap, punch through walls, leap and run great distances, and so on. In the West martial arts mastery usually translates to "fights really good." Now, as we have become more exposed to the legendary powers of martial arts mastery through Hong Kong films and Japanese manga/anime, some older superhero martial artists don't seem to be all that super anymore.

 

So the question (IMO) becomes one of not toning Son Goku down to Shang Chi's level, but can what ch'i powers can I give Shang Chi and still retain the essence of his character?

 

 

THANK YOU... YES!

 

Susano... I should have gone to the expert in the first place. Especially that line "Older superhero marital artists don't seem to be all that super anymore!"

 

That's exactly the issue. It's one of cultural concepts colliding... east vs. west. Both being valid as superhero concepts "in comics where writers control everything" but that break down in the RPG milieu. (I remember really struggling with this master martial artist type during Jurgens run on Superman, who was so skilled he could go toe-to-toe with Super... and this totally jarred my sensibilties, because I thought... "So Batman really just sucks... because we know he can't go at it with supes without k-gloves or whatever... DC just invalidated a whole slew of their best character concepts (Bats, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Nightwing) with this one character."

 

Now, many foks here have noted the "ahhh, just ignore it, don't look to closely" bit, and I realize that such is the case in many games (and certain systems like Mutants & Masterminds is built around this concept) and that works for them.

 

It simply doesn't for me. I have the personal psych lim "Can't handwave logical inconsistencies!" When I read or see a martial arts "super fight" I must analyze it from the perspective of "Did that fight take super human SKILL to win... or was it necessary to have actual POWERS to win it?"

 

I haven't read the latest Legion, so I don't know how that played out, but from the set-up before, it looked like lots of villains, but none that were of a level that would give Mon-El a struggle. I'd have no problem with a super SKILLED martial artist doing that... up to a point, but a villain who bounces laser blasts one panel, but gets floored by a punch from KK the next... I need something more. I need and explanation of the weakness he found, and how he exploited it, etc. I can't just hand wave and "assume" he did all that tricky stuff. To do that is to reduce all martial artists to "generic fighting guy/girl" and lose all the flavor and style. That's why I really hated M&M, because their rules do exactly that, reduce martial arts to "fighting good."

 

Bleh...

 

I guess I was just hoping to see if anyone out there had some ingenious, system based (in Hero), solution for melding two genres that tend to contradict each other in concept. I don't really see that here.

 

There are a number of ways to address it, and to that, the analysis has been helpful.

 

SFX - Needing to add a layer of complexity on to the system where the SFX changes/alters how damage is dealt/defended.

 

Breaking Things - As Storn pointed out, the way breaking things is handled in Hero has always been problematic, and that rears itself up again, in this debate.

 

Play Style - If you are willing to play the character who is sidelined at times... just as "colorful splashy power guy" is sidelined if any form of subtlety is required.

 

I guess, in the end, this is just a sticky wicket that will require a lot of subtle nudges during a game to make it work.

 

My results in the past have been to go with the "sufficiently powerful supergroups just won't have a bats/green arrow/Capt. Amer type in them, 'cause that type can't keep up after a while..." and that has worked so far... because those characters do exist in my world... are often more fun to play, IMO... but they are just at a different level. Occasionally the two will meet, but they don't hang out all the time... and I've had to say, "The Best..." needs to be more specific. I have one guy who is "The best swordsman..." who's only competition was the actual Jubei of legend... but compared to some other martial artists who could summon dragon-fire claws, or walk on water and hit with the force of crashing waves... or whatever... he wasn't "the best martial artist..."

 

I've had to fall on the side of "true martial prowess" has to include some ch'i power mastery... the use of which, even if very subtle, is very superhuman in result... or you just aren't "the best." It's unfortunate, but it's the only "internally consistnent" way I've found to make it work.

 

Thanks all, for your commentary.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Oh... and I guess I should say... I don't dislike Ch'i based super powers. Love 'em, in fact.

 

My problem is, that I see them as invalidating or overshadowing another wonderful super-concept... the Bats/Daredevil/Capt. Amer type... (Cap is iffy, 'cause you could justify that Super Soldier Serum as making him more than human...)

 

I want to have both... but I just don't see how without ignoring the inconsistencies... one is purely better than the other. Wuxia Lad can do everything Action Boy can do... PLUS!

 

Like I said, I was hoping for someone's brilliant, perfect solution... and I just don't think that exists, both in Hero as a system, and in an RPG game world of any consistency.

 

Too bad... but livable...

[GrooveD70]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

My problem is, that I see them as invalidating or overshadowing another wonderful super-concept... the Bats/Daredevil/Capt. Amer type... (Cap is iffy, 'cause you could justify that Super Soldier Serum as making him more than human...)

 

So to me those characters are more than human. Their skill is super human. In comics there are not usually considered super human because they dont have eyebeams or super STR or whatever. But they do dodge bullets, thats superhuman to me. Sure DD couldnt take down the Hulk but a 350 point brick, I think he could. Just my opinion but I dont think Im even close to the majority. To each his/her own. But IMHO batman/DD/Cap/Green Arrow are not realistic Characters. Comics Books are not realistic and neither are RPG's. What a human can accomplish with intense training is superhuman in the Marvel and DC universes. Everyone's original Game world of course can be different but I like emulate Marvel and DC. I think I would allow a anime themed PC in game without a problem...

[RDU Neil]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

I think that in comics there are heroes who have no real superpowers but the cunning and years of training allow them to whoop on Superpowered characters. I play a Batman-like character and his Off Strike totals to 12d6' date=' but I would never have him kicking tanks. But he can kick Superdewd and say "skin as hard as steel but I can still find his solar plexis" thats good enough for me in a comic RPG. Id be pretty bummed if that wasnt good enough for my GM.[/quote']

 

And to my mind (read, IMO... not the RIGHT way... just my preferred way) the way this should be accomplished is 8d6 strike, with Find Weakness.

 

This isn't "realistic" and I've tried to avoid that term... instead saying that I want internal consistency... so that if your justification for lots of damage is "hitting in the right spot" then I say the way to buy that is Find Weakness, or lots of Combat Level that can trade for damage (and as GM, I'm perfectly willing to say that trading CV for damage will not help vs. walls and tanks and other inanimate objects... just vs. targets that have vulnerable/critical areas...)

 

This then works fine, unless you have a campaign world where Lack of Weakness (it's so cheap) and Hardened Defensese (it's REALLY cheap) are common.

 

This gets into a whole 'nother issue with Hero, in that I've always felt that Defenses were way to cheap for the game, but that's neither here nor there.

 

This gets to that "Supes and the Hulk definitely have LoWeakness, but generic 350 point brick doesn't, and Shang-Chi can hurt him just fine. I'm ok with that... I just wish LoWeakness and Hardened cost more... because those cheap-ass defenses totally hose cool, subtle, character types for very few points.

 

But I'm repeating myself...

[Haerandir]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Oh... and I guess I should say... I don't dislike Ch'i based super powers. Love 'em, in fact.

 

My problem is, that I see them as invalidating or overshadowing another wonderful super-concept... the Bats/Daredevil/Capt. Amer type... (Cap is iffy, 'cause you could justify that Super Soldier Serum as making him more than human...)

 

I want to have both... but I just don't see how without ignoring the inconsistencies... one is purely better than the other. Wuxia Lad can do everything Action Boy can do... PLUS!

 

Like I said, I was hoping for someone's brilliant, perfect solution... and I just don't think that exists, both in Hero as a system, and in an RPG game world of any consistency.

 

Too bad... but livable...

 

Well, as I said before, the only way you're gonna keep one from overshadowing the other is to either loosen your definition of 'pure martial arts' to include things you currently consider unrealistic (or inappropriate), or you're going to have to tighten your (gameworld) definition of Chi powers, which will probably lead you to redefine psychic powers, magic powers, mutant powers, alien powers, radiation accident powers, cybernetic powers, etc... So that each 'category' of power that you allow in your game has unique advantages, disadvantages and flavor. That way lies madness. I can't, in good conscience, recommend it unless you want to make the interplay between power types an important feature of your game world background. Since you're talking about a established game world with an experienced group of players and characters, it's probably a little late in the game to completely redefine the universe's "power physics". Might be something to consider if you ever decide to reboot, though.

 

In the here and now, though, my belief is that you can't have your cake and eat it, too. You can't tightly control certain character concepts and allow carte blanche with others, and expect the results to be equivalent. I'd like to be able to tell you otherwise, but I've been thinking about it for 4 days now, and the best I can come up with is "Limit Martial Arts less, limit everything else more, or tell your players to expect pure Martial Artists to be less powerful than other characters".

[steriaca]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Also' date=' one last point -- using Son Goku as a comparison to anything is pretty absurd. He, if written up [b']exactly[/b] as seen in the Dragonball anime and manga, is a Galactic Champions-level martial artist built on thousands of points. Anything he does is going to make everyone else look puny by comparison. A better comparison would be Batman and... oh... just about anyone from Street Fighter II+ (or Ranma 1/2, Tenjo Tenge, Real Bout High School, Guilty Gear X, and so on). These guys are on the 400-500 point range and more in line with what I'd expect to see in average super hero setting.

 

Defently a well made point. Which, for me, begs the question...who is the beter martial artest, the Dick Grayson Robin, or Ranma Saotome?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

SNIP... the best I can come up with is "Limit Martial Arts less' date=' limit everything else more, or tell your players to expect pure Martial Artists to be less powerful than other characters".[/quote']

 

And as I said above... I chose Door #3, Monty! It works for me, but I was just trolling around looking to see if anyone had a cool answer I hadn't considered, yet.

 

Thanks, though.

[Susano]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Defently a well made point. Which' date=' for me, begs the question...who is the beter martial artest, the Dick Grayson Robin, or Ranma Saotome?[/quote']

 

Ranma Saotome. Remember, if it has "martial arts" in its name, he will win it. Maybe not the the first time, but certainly the second time around. However, Dick Grayson/Robin/Nightwing, would certainly give Ranma a run for his money in a straight up fight -- right up until Ranma started throwing 100 punches in an eyeblink, or fired off an energy blast. On the other hand, Ranma, while reasonably bright, is not a detective, and never will be. Thus, the next time Akane is kidnapped Ranma is the one who will bull his way through the legions of guards to get her back, while Dick will simply get the to the villain's base before the villain returns from his raid, and sneak Akane out under everyone's noses.

[steriaca]

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

 

Ranma Saotome. Remember' date=' if it has "martial arts" in its name, he will win it. Maybe not the the first time, but certainly the second time around. However, Dick Grayson/Robin/Nightwing, would certainly give Ranma a run for his money in a straight up fight -- right up until Ranma started throwing 100 punches in an eyeblink, or fired off an energy blast. On the other hand, Ranma, while reasonably bright, is not a detective, and never will be. Thus, the next time Akane is kidnapped Ranma is the one who will bull his way through the legions of guards to get her back, while Dick will simply get the to the villain's base before the villain returns from his raid, and sneak Akane out under everyone's noses.[/quote']

 

Defently true. Which makes me think about fanfic.

 

Also, there ARE ways Dick could thinnk up to nullifie Ranma's advantages.

 

1) Chestnut Fist: Proably the more tiering attack Ranma has ever learned. And the most inacurate in terms of hitting a week spot (shure, he can moddifie it a bit, but not much). While Ranma hasen't been truly winded after using this attack, he dosen't acualy use it more than a few times in a battle.

 

2) The Roarinng Dragon Attack (Gomen, forgot it's official name): Dick can easly spot the patern. And he is a hard man to get angry (and have his chi run HOT, while Ranma's runs COLD). Of course, Ranma DOES have a vareation on the attack, but Dick could easly lead him into a situation where using it is a disavantage (how can you use it to rocket yourself up when you hit a low cealing and fall back down?).

 

3) The Roaring Tiger Pride Ball: Beyond the range limitations (Ranma has to br rather 'up close' to Dick to land this attack), the fact that Ranma has to be shure that he can win to use the darn attack is also a major disavantage. And Dick is not above playing dirty. Othoe he won't acualy stoop to kill Ranma, throwing dirt into his eyes and kicking him in the groin are both logical attacks for him.

 

And, if all else fails, Dick could always get Ranma wet (if he knows about Jusinkyo or not).

 

It also should be noted that this can, in general, be used to take down a peg any 'chi chucker' short of Goku. A varrie skilled martial artest dosen't always have to 'play fair', and someone as expereanced and smart as Nightwing or Batman could easly nullifie any advantage, even thoes of full fleged superheros.