Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

[nexus]

Being different mediums, some ideas and material work in comics but don't seem to go over well in games. A few I have noticed (and these are all in my experience I'd be happy to hear counter examples).

 

1. PCs being captured/seperated for long periods. Occasionally is fine, but I've found it tends to annoy players if it happens to often

 

2. Being saved by a more powerful NPC

 

3. Vastly different power levels (Point totals) on the same team

 

4. One Trick ponies.

 

5. Characters with no type of resistant defense

 

6. Psychological villians. That is villians who's powers primarely affect the character's behavior and minds, altering their personalites in some way to cause chaos. Or Villians that can only be defeated threw pure role playing means like mastering your fear or overcoming an old trauma.

[ZenStorm]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

1. PCs being captured/seperated for long periods. Occasionally is fine, but I've found it tends to annoy players if it happens to often

 

1. I agree completely. Occasionally is good, but if it happens too often people just start falling asleep.

 

 

2. Being saved by a more powerful NPC

 

2. This is another one that I think is ok on occasion, but quickly gets old. Too often, in my experience, it's been an example of the GM flexing his...eh...'muscle' NPC-Theater is never very fun. When it's a crucial plot element, I can understand it. But, that is also a convenient excuse for someone who's trying to cover-up their lack of planning with the proverbial "brick wall." I've been GMing for decades now. Decade-SSSSuh...plural. Take it from me, when you're surrounded by NPCs who make your cosmic-level character look like the little punk amidst all the 'real' heroes, ninety-nine point nine out of a hundred times, your GM is either a)pissed off about something and taking it out on you. b)Tired. c) covering up for his lack of planning. d) covering up for his bad bad BAD plot design or e) more interested in the power-trip of GMing than in the storytelling aspect.

 

 

3. Vastly different power levels (Point totals) on the same team

 

3. Yeah, this tends to get on people's nerves. However, I have seen it work. You just have to have players who are more interested in telling a great story than they are in making sure that their game adheres to the communist ideal of no one ever getting ahead of anyone else. If there were some kind of racing game, these people would be very boring players indeed.

 

 

4. One Trick ponies.

 

4. This can work. Again, you just have to have players who are cool.

 

 

5. Characters with no type of resistant defense

 

5. Hmm... This one I just don't agree with at all. Sorry.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

There aren't any characters with resistant defenses in comics either. They all have "Writers" and that defense keeps attacks from either a) hitting them or affecting their ability to fight...it's Combat Luck in champions.

[caris]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

5. Characters with no type of resistant defense

 

5. Hmm... This one I just don't agree with at all. Sorry.

 

No resistant defenses can be done, but the GM really has to manage the KAs.

[nexus]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

There aren't any characters with resistant defenses in comics either. They all have "Writers" and that defense keeps attacks from either a) hitting them or affecting their ability to fight...it's Combat Luck in champions.

 

All right, perhaps I should phrase that with no inherent ability to resist lethal attacks such as armor or a forcefield. Its comic convention that keeps them alive in comics, but that doesn't nessacarily apply in an rpg so I've rarely seen a character without some form of Resistant be it Combat Luck or the classic "armored costume".

[JJR]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

All right' date=' perhaps I should phrase that with no inherent ability to resist lethal attacks such as armor or a forcefield. Its comic convention that keeps them alive in comics, but that doesn't nessacarily apply in an rpg so I've rarely seen a character without some form of Resistant be it Combat Luck or the classic "armored costume".[/quote']

I believe this is why energy blasts were created instead of calling them all killing attacks. The energy blast is the "comic convention" which keeps characters alive.

[Theron]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

The classic Gardner Fox, "Let's split up and tackle the individual pieces of this crisis (or recover the McGuffins, or investigate, or whatever) and then get back together in the last act and whomp it" story is extremely hard to pull off.

 

Actually, it can be done, but it requires a GM and players who are entertaining enough to keep the players of the off-screen characters engaged. It's rarely done well though.

 

The sense of learning/coping with powers. There are some kludgy ways around it (mystery powers, where the GM creates abilities and springs them on the player at a later date, for instance), but, by and large, everything about a Champions character is so quantified, it's hard for the player to be truly surprised by anything he or she can do.

[nexus]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

I believe this is why energy blasts were created instead of calling them all killing attacks. The energy blast is the "comic convention" which keeps characters alive.

 

There was a list of comic "laws" I saw awhile back that summed it up pretty well. I think it was called "The Law on Inverse Accuracy":The more likely an attack is to kill the Hero the less likely it is to hit.

[Alex Raven]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

I'm playing a character with no resistant defenses and I have had no problem. If you understand that you cannot wade into the thick of combat you will do fine. I play a support role. I am not the guy to go in there and deliver the smack down. I do not put myself in positions where I have to rely on resistant defenses. If you play it smart, you won't have a problem.

[Theron]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

My last long term PC was a combat monster with no resistant defenses I don't think it was ever a problem.*

 

 

 

*To be fair, he WAS the best martial artist in the entire game world and could crank his DCV past 20 with the right skill levels and a Martial Dodge. But still...

[Enforcer84]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

All right' date=' perhaps I should phrase that with no inherent ability to resist lethal attacks such as armor or a forcefield. Its comic convention that keeps them alive in comics, but that doesn't nessacarily apply in an rpg so I've rarely seen a character without some form of Resistant be it Combat Luck or the classic "armored costume".[/quote']

Well combat luck was created to simulate the guys who have no resistant defenses. It's purpose is to make a game mechanic that allows characters to play the game witout abandoning the spandex only concept. Don't confuse game mechanics with special effects or visual results.

 

If you really wanted to split hairs, there really aren't Killing Attacks and Normal Attacks in comics. Particularly on the Energy side of things. No one fears the crushing strength of the Thing any less than they do a bullet. Comics pretty much don't use Killing Attacks. Every attack is vs normal defense. Though some have stated that the Authority is based mostly on killing attacks with low resistant defenses to get their high bodycount. YMMV of course.

[nexus]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Well combat luck was created to simulate the guys who have no resistant defenses. It's purpose is to make a game mechanic that allows characters to play the game witout abandoning the spandex only concept. Don't confuse game mechanics with special effects or visual results.

 

I don't think I am. I realize what the Combat Luck mechanic is supposed to represent. Its one of my favorite changes in Fifth Edition. But, mechanically, it is still Armor when in the "reality" of the comic these guys have no armor.

 

If you really wanted to split hairs, there really aren't Killing Attacks and Normal Attacks in comics. Particularly on the Energy side of things. No one fears the crushing strength of the Thing any less than they do a bullet. Comics pretty much don't use Killing Attacks. Every attack is vs normal defense. Though some have stated that the Authority is based mostly on killing attacks with low resistant defenses to get their high bodycount. YMMV of course.

 

I would respectively disagree on every attack in the comics being Normal Damage.

[Theron]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

I don't think I am. I realize what the Combat Luck mechanic is supposed to represent. Its one of my favorite changes in Fifth Edition. But' date=' mechanically, it is still Armor when in the "reality" of the comic these guys have no armor. [/quote']

 

I've seen write-ups of Wolverine that used Armor or DR to represent part of his healing factor on the grounds that Regen didn't necessarily work fast enough and ultimately, the net effect of it was that he'd get hurt, but get better extremely quickly. Basically, appearing to be hurt worse than he was for a moment was a special effect. Not sure I agree with it, but the Hero System allows folks to find some rather interesting hoops to jump through should they wish it.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

I don't think I am. I realize what the Combat Luck mechanic is supposed to represent. Its one of my favorite changes in Fifth Edition. But, mechanically, it is still Armor when in the "reality" of the comic these guys have no armor.

 

 

 

I would respectively disagree on every attack in the comics being Normal Damage.

Okay on the first point we'll agree to disagree because we might just end up repeating ourselves over and over...

Okay on the first point we'll agree to disagree because we might just end up repeating ourselves over and over...

 

 

As to the second, we could go the other way and everything is "Killing" and resistent defenses are inherent. a 2rPd is what turns a gunshot into a fleshwound. Most superhero games I had played besides champions (and later DC Heroes) never differentiated the two.

I don't know, you have me thinking too hard on this one. I hurt.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Another comic "bit" that translates poorly is scientific research. In the comics, we'll see characters engaged in heavy research, watch the build-up of panning over all the equipment, the lab, etc.

 

We get a picture of the character we're trying to save from a disease, or the device we're trying to make work, or what have you.

 

Perhaps we get the "smoke obscures the effect until Person X walks out" pictures.

 

In Champions (or pretty much any RPG) we get "make your skill roll. You need to roll an X."

 

Another genre convention that doesn't work in games is the hero whose power level fluctuates (1 issue, Spidey can hold his own with the Hulk, and the next the Kingpin smacks him down), because the game demands defined levels of ability.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

If you really wanted to split hairs' date=' there really aren't Killing Attacks and Normal Attacks in comics. Particularly on the Energy side of things. No one fears the crushing strength of the Thing any less than they do a bullet. Comics pretty much don't use Killing Attacks. Every attack is vs normal defense. Though some have stated that the Authority is based mostly on killing attacks with low resistant defenses to get their high bodycount. [/quote']There's a genre convention in mainstream comics that no one gets killed by fists or energy blasts, no matter how powerful the blows are. Usually the victim isn't even seriously hurt. A classic example is when Doomsday, a villain who can go toe-to-toe with Superman is beating on unprotected members of the JLA such as Booster Gold without his force field, Ice and Blue Beetle. By rights they should all have died but they all survived.

 

Bullets and blades OTOH seem to have their real world effect. If a non-bulletproof character is shot (as Cyborg was once, on a non-armoured section) it'll take them a long time to recover.

 

I think the Authority is trying to depict the 'realistic' result if superstrong fists met unprotected flesh.

[nexus]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Okay on the first point we'll agree to disagree because we might just end up repeating ourselves over and over...

Okay on the first point we'll agree to disagree because we might just end up repeating ourselves over and over...

 

I actually think we're agreeing on this. Combat Luck simulates the genre convention of the unarmored character that isn't splattered all over the landscape. Its a special effect. But there are some people, mainly some players I've had and Hero detractor that that idea doesn't click with. They feel that to "properly" represent characters that in the comics have no innate defenses you shouldn't have to buy any kind of innate defenses in their game stats. Combat Luck is a Defense. Its just a defense with a cool special effect. They don't think in terms of Special Effects. Its something I disagree with.

[Pegasus]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Being different mediums' date=' some ideas and material work in comics but don't seem to go over well in games. A few I have noticed (and these are all in my experience I'd be happy to hear counter examples).[/quote']

Some excellent points here. I've got a few to add, too.

1. PCs being captured/seperated for long periods. Occasionally is fine, but I've found it tends to annoy players if it happens to often

Very true. I've been involved in more than one game, though, that had multiple GMs for the express purpose of separating teams.

2. Being saved by a more powerful NPC

Deus Ex Machina. It doesn't work in the comics either.

3. Vastly different power levels (Point totals) on the same team

This one depends. In a combat heavy game, or if the players are min/maxers, it will not work. If the players are more into role-playing and character development, then it will. I played in a game with unlimited points. Everybody was to create their ideal character at the beginning. It worked fine, and no one went above 600, I think. There are players I would never do this with, though. "It says in your origin that you accidentally killed Superman..."

4. One Trick ponies.

I assume you mean characters that are wholly offense, or defense, or movement, or skills, etc. This is true. I've seen it tried a dozen times by myself and others, and it never seems to work. It's too bad, too, because those are some of the most interesting characters.

5. Characters with no type of resistant defense

Mostly agree. I was glad to see Combat Luck because it made those more viable.

6. Psychological villians. That is villians who's powers primarely affect the character's behavior and minds, altering their personalites in some way to cause chaos. Or Villians that can only be defeated threw pure role playing means like mastering your fear or overcoming an old trauma.

Again, this will work with role-players.

 

On a similar note:

7. Mastermind human villains: Villains whose whole schtick is planning, with no abilities in combat whatsoever.

 

8. PC romance. If two characters are romantically involved, it's because the players are. I knew one couple who always did this, no matter how different the characters were. One time they both created women in order to prevent it. It didn't work.

[Lightray]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

1. PCs being captured/seperated for long periods. Occasionally is fine, but I've found it tends to annoy players if it happens to often

 

2. Being saved by a more powerful NPC

 

3. Vastly different power levels (Point totals) on the same team

 

5. Characters with no type of resistant defense

I have a campaign where I regularly use all of these, without any complaints. That's because I'm running a "troupe-style" campaign, where each player has multiple characters at different point levels.

 

If they're rescued by an NPC, it's likely to be another of their characters. And since most of the characters share the same Active Points / DC limitations, they're free to choose whichever character is appropriate for an adventure, despite point totals.

 

I regularly run solo adventures for individual characters, but I run a batch of them at a time, so each player has his or her own solo going on. I just synchronize the action -- when player #1 is thinking of what to do next, I tell player #2 what's going on with her, and player #3 is helping them or me with details. When combat comes up, everyone goes down the SPD chart together, just like a group combat.

 

We've got characters with resistant defenses, too. Some rely on high DCV, but are slowly purchasing Armor or similar defenses. But we've also got a "teen champions" group of characters that don't need resistant defenses. They know one hit will take out their character, so when they're involved roleplaying and very clever tactics are the order of the day.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Being different mediums' date=' some ideas and material work in comics but don't seem to go over well in games. A few I have noticed (and these are all in my experience I'd be happy to hear counter examples).[/quote']

 

Your first five examples are discussed pretty thoroughly in the Champions book, chapter 4, in the section "The limits of superhero genre simulation". I don't think I'd have anything to add to the excellent advice found there.

 

However, this one is new:

 

6. Psychological villians. That is villians who's powers primarely affect the character's behavior and minds' date=' altering their personalites in some way to cause chaos. Or Villians that can only be defeated threw pure role playing means like mastering your fear or overcoming an old trauma.[/quote']

 

I have run several games which had one or more villians like this, and it's worked out very well. However, there are some things to keep in mind with this kind of villain. Confrontations with this kind of villain works best in games with only one or two players, or in "sidebar" solo game sessions with a particular player. I used to have the luxury of getting together one-on-one with players from time to time and run solo adventures, so this wasn't an obstacle for me then: it would be an obstacle for me in face-to-face games now.

 

You could also run this kind of encounter in a PBEM game, but that also has its drawbacks. Because of the time-dilation effect of PBEM games, a one-on-one encounter of this type could take a ridiculously long time. You could theoretically run it as a side game, parallel to the main PBEM game, but then you may get into continuity problems (a potential problem whenever characters separate). It might be best to reserve this kind of villain for solo PBEM games, unless you have a group of players who are all on board with the idea of the entire group spending the next several weeks or months doing nothing but posturing and playing mind games.

 

That leads me to the other main issue: some players just aren't into this kind of game. As the GM, our responsibility is coordinate the game so that everyone has fun. If some or most of the players don't have any interest in this kind of encounter, the GM shouldn't run it even if she thinks she can pull it off. But that's a GM judgement call: as long as the enjoyment of the players (including yourself) and the good of the game are the GM's highest priorities, she should do as she thinks best.

[Wanderer]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

There's a genre convention in mainstream comics that no one gets killed by fists or energy blasts, no matter how powerful the blows are. Usually the victim isn't even seriously hurt. A classic example is when Doomsday, a villain who can go toe-to-toe with Superman is beating on unprotected members of the JLA such as Booster Gold without his force field, Ice and Blue Beetle. By rights they should all have died but they all survived.

 

Bullets and blades OTOH seem to have their real world effect. If a non-bulletproof character is shot (as Cyborg was once, on a non-armoured section) it'll take them a long time to recover.

 

I think the Authority is trying to depict the 'realistic' result if superstrong fists met unprotected flesh.

 

However this convention may stretch credibility till it screams if pushed too far. Even the most ardent fan may sometimes be puzzled that a punch or energy blast strong enough to fissure a mountain is less lethal than a bullet. Hence best comic book authors give some thought to the issue, by not having characters lacking strong defenses being hit by powerful attacks (dodging, being shielded by more resilient comrades), being administered quick healing, and the like, or simply giving such characters other roles in the story rather than the combat with the heavy-hitting foe (maybe they target the minor goons, or infiltrate the lair and steal the McGuffin).

 

This difficulty is reflected in Hero by the fact that mundane weapon attacks are KA, whereas the (typically much more powerful than an handgun bullet) typical energy blast or telekinetic punch is Normal.

 

Mindful of this problem, I've decided that any combat-capable superhuman character of mine is going to have most or almost all (except what comes from Figured mundane Characteristics) of their Defenses be Resistant, be it Combat Luck, Armor, Force Field, an "armored spandex" costume, or Damage Reduction. This way, if character is going to be strong enough to soak a punch from the Thing or a fireball from the Human Torch, he's going to laugh at bullets as well. I also make all Real Weapon Attacks have the Reduced Penetration Limitation vs. superhumans (average superhero should be more threatening than a petty crook or beat cop with an handgun).

[tenscales]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Champions RPG is a game that players create characters of their own....unique characters.

 

They all think dissimilar to each other, not the cohesiveness thinking of one writer.

 

RPGs have to be fair in all players, comics dont have characters whining or complaining about munchkinism, unfair ruling, and such. That is why each have same power levels.

 

Bening saved by a mega-powerful NPC depends on the GM, after all the players are the main stars. Most GMs wont do this idea, because the PCs are the heroes that need to shine and prove themselves. Too easy to depend on 'big daddy' to save their butts. No rolls for the mega=powerful NPC to save them, he just does.

[pinecone]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

The only time I used the "Saved by the more powerful NPC" the MPNPC was the main Villian they were going to have to take out later (add evil chuckle here)

[Enforcer84]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

I actually think we're agreeing on this. Combat Luck simulates the genre convention of the unarmored character that isn't splattered all over the landscape. Its a special effect. But there are some people' date=' mainly some players I've had and Hero detractor that that idea doesn't click with. They feel that to "properly" represent characters that in the comics have no innate defenses you shouldn't have to buy any kind of innate defenses in their game stats. Combat Luck is a Defense. Its just a defense with a cool special effect. They don't think in terms of Special Effects. Its something I disagree with.[/quote']

Of course they don't have innate defesnes in the comics...Hydra agents never roll 3's to hit!

[nexus]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

I brought up psychological villians mainly because Hero doesn't have mechanics to really support that kind of play. Make an Ego (or not) its pretty straight forward and when I've played or run those sorts of encounters. Its felt kind of...flat for lack of a better word. To amend, a more narrativist play style would probably work better with them, or a game with more developed social mechanics.

 

I wasn't really looking for advice with this thread. Just opinions and other examples of differences between the mediums.