Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

[ZenStorm]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

No resistant defenses can be done' date=' but the GM really has to manage the KAs.[/quote']

 

That's what I was saying.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

11. Breaking the fourth wall. Example: John Byrne's She-Hulk knowing she's in a comic book. The roleplaying equivalent would be characters that know they're in a roleplaying game.

 

I played in a Champions game like that once.

 

Literally, once.

[OddHat]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

6. Psychological villians. That is villians who's powers primarely affect the character's behavior and minds, altering their personalites in some way to cause chaos. Or Villians that can only be defeated threw pure role playing means like mastering your fear or overcoming an old trauma.

 

I've had many scenarios like this over the years. It works, as long as your players are into the idea, and as long as they know enough about their own characters backgrounds and history. You do have to be careful not to do it too often, or with players who prefer just blowing things up.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

No win scenarios, of the literal type.

[dbsousa]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

I recall the time I spent three real-world hours doing nothing' date=' while my character sat in a helicopter on its way to [X'], while the GM finished up "just one brief thing" with one character.

 

Not fun.

 

"Let's take a helicopter ride" became a running joke for several weeks afterward.

 

 

In our game we call that "Waiting outside the Russian Embassy", which is what one PC did while the rest of the game happened without him.

[zornwil]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

The classic Gardner Fox, "Let's split up and tackle the individual pieces of this crisis (or recover the McGuffins, or investigate, or whatever) and then get back together in the last act and whomp it" story is extremely hard to pull off.

 

Actually, it can be done, but it requires a GM and players who are entertaining enough to keep the players of the off-screen characters engaged. It's rarely done well though.

 

The sense of learning/coping with powers. There are some kludgy ways around it (mystery powers, where the GM creates abilities and springs them on the player at a later date, for instance), but, by and large, everything about a Champions character is so quantified, it's hard for the player to be truly surprised by anything he or she can do.

For the most part we've done okay with splitting the team up, the players keep wanting to do it and the group keeps eachother suitably amused while I work with whoever's "on stage". But I do try to keep rotating through everyone fairly quickly. The other issue is I have many personal sub-plots for the characters, and like to give them all some air-time. But anyway, I do agree it's tricky. I avoided it with the prior group although it still happened on some reasonable occassion as they would go in that direction anyway.

[zornwil]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Since this seems to destined to drift...

 

re: PC vs PC conflict: Some players really don't like "inter party" conflict even if it is in genre/realistic. "PCs" are all on the same side and should not fight in their minds. Understandable way to look at things. Another big issue is, well, in comics there is no ego invested in the characteres (at least not as much) compared to a player character. The problem with a PC vs PC fight is that someone has to lose. This, for some reason, can be more upsetting to the player that loses. Its an ego thing. I've had players that didn't mind at all when their PCs failed or where beaten by NPCs that were positively crushed when they lost a battle vs another PC.

 

re Mass Combat: I tried using the Fantasy Hero mass combat rules for things like that. Didn't work too badly.

 

Another thing that hasn't worked well in my experience. Psychological warfare. You see it in the comics all the time. Batman's head games, taunting your opponent until he gets so mad he makes a mistake. That sort of thing. Its hard to do against PCs. One of the big reasons I think is that there's no rules or modifiers for things like "Being so made you can't see straight" in Champions/Hero. Actually, right now I can't think of a system that really takes those things into account. Its a genre thing. In some genre, getting mad/going berserk seems to improve you combat abilties. Part of it also stems from the fact allot of players aren't willing to have their characters do "dumb" things in the name in role playing.

I think this last paragraph is very true. I think most things mentioned in this thread can be done in games, but not to the same level of detail or exploration as in the comics - for example, breaking the fourth wall can be done but requires that the characters/players are simply willing to play in that way, which is not the norm for RPGing. I've heard some groups are great about getting in death traps a lot, as well (and I do have some players who seem to willingly sign up for that). But on all accounts, there's a gamesmanship that does "interfere" and distort the comic book picture. What you've stated here gets to the heart of the matter - the PCs are rarely willing to do things that are AS blatantly counter-productive as in the comics.

 

However, even there, experiences vary. We have one player in our group who plays a very naive character and routinely does things like react emotionally when it's inappropriate.

 

Hmmm, I'm rambling. I guess my point is that you do identify the heart of the matter, and the degree to which groups/GMs/players address things that don't routinely work in RPGing Champions has a lot to do with how willing they are to play a simulation or narrative as opposed to a game.

[David Blue]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Grabs in Champions are so un-comicy it's a crying shame. Look at the Incredibles - great movie. What was the Omni-Droid doing all the time? Grab-and-throw! It looked great, and boy was it in genre! In a game? Forget it. If the brick grabs at someone he's not doing his main job, which is to bludgeon helpless targets, it's a miracle if it comes off, and if a brick grab does come off you use it for all it's worth: to squeeze while the rest of the team savages the held victim. Grab and throw (except in unusual circumstances like a weak invulnerable foe who should be thrown as far away as possible) - no way, only happens in comics.

 

Also, comic characters out of combat routinely grab each other (usually by the upper arms or shoulders) to make some emotional point. You've got to remember never to do that in a game, even if the character is a physical/emotional type that would do that, because the answer is that that other character was ready, and due to his/her/its superior defensive combat value and/or dodge - you missed! Phase twelve … From an emotional discussion to a ridiculous fight in one easy move. That's pure gaming, not a comic reaction at all. In a comic the result is that the other charcter's panel comes up, the "grab" ends, and the confrontation continues (or else someone walks away).

 

Doug McCrae: "10. Whenever two superheroes meet for the first time, they fight. Tends to create bad feeling if they're PCs, in my experience."

 

Or, one of the characters dies. Constitution stun, your force field goes down, and a hail of autofire through zero resistant defences takes you to character generation. Maybe next time you'll be wise enough to generate an Iron Age killer who strikes first without mercy, instead of a Silver Age Sucker.

 

Doug McCrae: "11. Breaking the fourth wall. Example: John Byrne's She-Hulk knowing she's in a comic book. The roleplaying equivalent would be characters that know they're in a roleplaying game."

 

I've always let player characters use game knowledge, for example building a pseudo-pillbox with six blasters pointing out, "because as we know the universe works on a hex-grid" said the cheeky character. Why penalise him? He was right!

 

I agree mind control works very poorly. I used it to set up a scenario, where the mind-controller forced the player characters to start exploring a dangerous alien site with cool technology that I intended the player characters to receive. (The mega-mind-controller lacked the brute durability to do her own exploring.) Then an assassin knocked her off, leaving the player characters in charge of the expedition. The players were so angry and upset that their characters were controlled that when they were left in charge - when the real scenario began, from my point of view - the atmosphere was already no good for gaming.

 

Another ubiquitous dramatic bit that doesn't work at all is the long chase, like in the Terminator movies. Even though the player knew his character had a mighty battle-suit on the far side of the country, and if they could just stay ahead of the hunters till they got to it the worm would turn with a vengeance, the player simply quit on the scenario and let the character go too. Players really, really hate to flee, they have to advance, conquering. It's partly because of this that the limitation for foci is practically unenforceable. (Hence I am now reluctant to give any points at all for it.)

 

Though maybe that's not a real comic-book bit anyway, more of a universal dramatic situation.

 

What RDU Neil said about gadgeteers is smack on, in my experience. And I too have succumbed to the lure of doing stuff that's effective and easy to describe in rule-crunching terns but is like using a sledge-hammer to crack an eggshell in terns of engineering. And it was stupid and bad roleplaying.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

 

Jeez...

[McCoy]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

11. Breaking the fourth wall. Example: John Byrne's She-Hulk knowing she's in a comic book. The roleplaying equivalent would be characters that know they're in a roleplaying game.

That's why Foxbat is so much fun to play. Alright, technically he thinks he's in a comic book, not a RPG, But it is fun that he always narrates what he's doing and wonders why he never gets the element of suprise.

[Mike W]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

I think the only thing that is hard to manage is separating the group - unless you have two GMs. In college, we broke in new hero GMs by making them "assistant GMs" for a while before taking over the group or starting their own campaign. Once the assistant got comfortable, scenarios where the group got split up became real possibilities because, after all, you had one GM for each group.

 

More powerful guest stars can be tough but even that can work if it is done right. If you make the fight big enough that the PCs can play a major role(it sounds like a contradiction but it isn't) then you can get away with a whole lot. Heck, I'm looking at possibly having to run the PCs alongside a front line Avengers team in the near future. But since the PCs will be "cracking the case open" and will actually be needed for the final showdown to be successful, I can get away with sticking them on the same field as Iron Man, even though he could mop the floor with the whole team.

[Lightray]

Also' date=' comic characters out of combat routinely grab each other (usually by the upper arms or shoulders) to make some emotional point. You've got to remember never to do that in a game, even if the character is a physical/emotional type that would do that, because the answer is that that other character was ready, and due to his/her/its superior defensive combat value and/or dodge - you missed! Phase twelve … From an emotional discussion to a ridiculous fight in one easy move. That's pure gaming, not a comic reaction at all. In a comic the result is that the other charcter's panel comes up, the "grab" ends, and the confrontation continues (or else someone walks away).[/quote']

I sincerely hope this was intended as some form of humor, and not the way your games tend to be run...

 

HERO GUY: "I pat Keen-Man on the shoulder for a job well done."

KEEN-MAN: "Ha! My DCV is 17! Your well-intentioned congratulations miss their mark!"

 

 

KEEN-MAN: "I'm going to the bathroom before we leave the base."

GM: Roll to hit.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

One point on the "individual characters off doing different things" idea: I was in a game a GenCon where the GM did a knock-it-out-of-the-park excellent job of that, with a twist.

 

The game was basically a series of flashbacks as a group of superheroes were being interviewed individually for a documentary about their group ("now" gone their separate ways). Throughout, the GM would pick one (or in one case, two) PCs and initiate an out-of-nowhere combat -- just one or two phases -- before going back to the interviews and roleplaying.

 

By the time we got to the end, we found out that it all led up to one fight, spread over a large area. Each of the mini-combats, that seemed solo, were actually intros to the main combat, and since they were spread far enough apart, they stayed mainly solo against individual supervillains.

 

Frickin' brilliantly done.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

As to mass combat, I wrote up some rules for running mass combat with groups of individuals run as "mass-individuals" and that worked pretty good. (The VIPER book mentioned a similar idea, but only very briefly.) A grouped set's base OCV, Damage Classes, and STUN went up, the exact amount depending upon how many made up a group. I went with doublings, so 4 individuals grouped had +2 OCV, +20 STUN, etc., a group of 8 had +3 OCV and +30 STUN, and so on. If you had more than a doubling level (for instance, 10 instead of 8 in a team), you got to do a bonus attack (usually with a weapon different from the main group's attack).

 

For instance, ten VIPER agents, all armed with 10d6 EB blaster rifles and different specialty weapons, turn into one "character" with +3 OCV and 13d6 EB and +30 STUN (among other effects). During combat, one of the extra agents could do something individual (like throw a flash grenade, or threaten a hostage, or scream and run). Damage done to the group is reduced if it's a focused (single-target) attack, or normal if AOE or Explosion. And as the group takes damage, they lose effectiveness until they're down to one or two individuals.

 

The tricky part was the odd attacks (Flashes, Drains, Entangles), and almost winging handling of the group using AOE and Explosion attacks.

 

While it sounds like a lot of extra bookkeeping, most of that could be done up-front, making the actual combat faster.

[archermoo]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Really. We always had fun with that one. I think our GM was always careful not to let it get out of hand. I can't remeber getting really trashed by another player in one of those meeting scenarios. He would let it go on for just a few phases or so before distracting us. I remember other games where people wouldn't be interested in doing that part. They just wanted to get to the adventure.

 

That brings another one to mind, though: m ind controlled PCs fighting other PCs. Players hate to be manipulated, so mind control plots are hard to pull off.

 

My favorite experience with PC vs PC was a number of years ago. Me and someone else were joining in on a long running campaign. Our characters were the same power level as the old guard, but we started with fewer points than they had (although more than they started with). The two of us met the old guard team while persuing the same group of bad guys, who just took off in a plane. The old guard had a geomancer type who was going to rip out a section of earth with us on it and fly us after the bad guys, but the other new guy had a fear of heights. One of the old guard (a kind of Spider-Man type with no webs) decided to pull an A-Team on my buddy and cold-cock him with a kick to the head. Being a martial artist I step in and block him, and though he has a higher Dex than mine, I'm a better martial artist so I succeed with my block. The spidy type isn't used to anyone being good enough to do that, and after standing there stunned for a bit starts muttering about getting too old for this crap...

 

As far as being mind controlled, I'm more than happy as a player to play along with it. I don't try to weasel out of it, or fight under my abilities, or any of that crap. If for whatever reason I'm playing a bad guy for a while (mind controll, replacement, whatever) I'll do my best to role play the new situation. I've never had a gaming group get upset about it yet. Quite the contrary, most of they have thought it was great, and would do the same thing under the same circumstances. Part of keeping in mind that it isn't a matter of the players vs the GM, but everyone working together to have fun.

[David Blue]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

I should clarify:

 

That wasn't one game. That was a selection of "hits" from a variety of failed games over several years, including some that aborted in a single catastrophic session, mostly with a bunch of guys I no longer game with at all. They had good days as well as the bad, as I did, no better or worse. These examples were from the bad days.

 

But I did encounter this sort of stuff often enough to decide that gaming ain't comics. Much more than with a comic writer's character, a Champions character sheet represents somebody's ego in spandex, and that has a big effect on what you can expect to do smoothly and what's better to leave alone.

 

Sometimes it's good to look back objectively and say: "Hey, maybe none of us were too smart. I might want to learn from that."

[Kristopher]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

That's weird. I always got a kick out of that: being able to play a villain for a little bit. Everybody knows it's all in good fun. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it' date=' as long as it's not being used to humiliate anyone (that could be crossing a line, depending on the circumstances).[/quote']

 

I don't see why anyone wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

 

 

 

OK, not really, but I just wanted to turn that around for you look at for a moment.

 

A good GM knows which players don't mind that kind of thing, and which players will be bothered by it. Comments to a player about how they shouldn't be bothered by it are only going to cause problems.

[David Blue]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Lightray: " I sincerely hope this was intended as some form of humor, and not the way your games tend to be run...

 

HERO GUY: "I pat Keen-Man on the shoulder for a job well done."

KEEN-MAN: "Ha! My DCV is 17! Your well-intentioned congratulations miss their mark!"

 

OK, here is a made-up example:

 

An artist can draw "Y-Man grabs X-Wife's hand" and the writer can insert "Doesn't this diamond ring mean anything!?" and it's an unopposed action, no roll. Next panel, Y-Man is pushed aside, and X-Wife runs away through the hex Y-Man was occupying, even though he has 60 strength. In a game, X-Wife may have double digit defensive combat value, and immediately you have a contest of flying hands manoeuvring for position. If there was a next panel Y-Man would be way too strong for a wimpy martial artist to push. (I've seen that.)

 

Player dialogue, not made up: "I don't think so - go on, roll if you think you're tough!"

 

Now, I'm not sure if that quote was 100% right, I can't quite pin down where I heard it - but I did hear it in game in a situation a lot like that, not with the guys I used to adventure with regularly, but not in a convention game either. I mean, this is how plenty of people play.

 

I think it may have been from the game where I played a Daredevil clone who, like several other players had a total code versus killing. The campaign ended after about two or three sessions, when the big enforcer villains turned out to be from Robocop: huge mechanical killers that couldn't be affected at all unless you Found Weakness in the backs of their heads (which I could do) and stabbed them in the brain, killing them. I and some other players tried to carry civilians out of the way of the cyber-massacre till autofire killing attacks mowed us down too.

 

Does that give you a sense of the level of play I'm referring to?

 

(half-joking) Are we discussing Champions here, or just excellent Champions, played by expert gamemasters and players? Because there's an awful lot of the other kind, and I've played a lot of it, and made my own mistakes. Which I try to learn from.

 

One of these chronic mistakes is thinking that things will happen in a game the way they would happen in a comic, when they won't.

[BcAugust]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Wow. Just... wow.

 

Actually, I've had really good luck with my group, re: splitting up and Mind Control. We understand that it's just a game, and we have a lot of fun with it.

 

If anything, we're perhaps a little too antangonistic toward each other in some games. Then again, with five players having background in Vampire... you tend to get that.

 

Hmm. I think that Champions doesn't do that well with illnesses.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Lightray: " I sincerely hope this was intended as some form of humor, and not the way your games tend to be run...

 

HERO GUY: "I pat Keen-Man on the shoulder for a job well done."

KEEN-MAN: "Ha! My DCV is 17! Your well-intentioned congratulations miss their mark!"

 

OK, here is a made-up example:

 

An artist can draw "Y-Man grabs X-Wife's hand" and the writer can insert "Doesn't this diamond ring mean anything!?" and it's an unopposed action, no roll. Next panel, Y-Man is pushed aside, and X-Wife runs away through the hex Y-Man was occupying, even though he has 60 strength. In a game, X-Wife may have double digit defensive combat value, and immediately you have a contest of flying hands manoeuvring for position. If there was a next panel Y-Man would be way too strong for a wimpy martial artist to push. (I've seen that.)

 

Player dialogue, not made up: "I don't think so - go on, roll if you think you're tough!"

 

Now, I'm not sure if that quote was 100% right, I can't quite pin down where I heard it - but I did hear it in game in a situation a lot like that, not with the guys I used to adventure with regularly, but not in a convention game either. I mean, this is how plenty of people play.

 

I think it may have been from the game where I played a Daredevil clone who, like several other players had a total code versus killing. The campaign ended after about two or three sessions, when the big enforcer villains turned out to be from Robocop: huge mechanical killers that couldn't be affected at all unless you Found Weakness in the backs of their heads (which I could do) and stabbed them in the brain, killing them. I and some other players tried to carry civilians out of the way of the cyber-massacre till autofire killing attacks mowed us down too.

 

Does that give you a sense of the level of play I'm referring to?

 

(half-joking) Are we discussing Champions here, or just excellent Champions, played by expert gamemasters and players? Because there's an awful lot of the other kind, and I've played a lot of it, and made my own mistakes. Which I try to learn from.

 

One of these chronic mistakes is thinking that things will happen in a game the way they would happen in a comic, when they won't.

 

Well, if the other players aren't _trying_ to play Hero (not Champions) as a Comic Book Game, it's versatile and flexible enough that it won't end up being a Comic Book Game. I mean, there was a conscious play decision there to... I don't know... be all 'who has the bigger dice?'?

 

I mean, IMG, that 'grabs his hand' isn't a Grab, just a grab. The character is not being restrained by it. It's just flavour. (A big G Grab is a bearhug, or grabbing the arm, or tying them up with your stretchy arms).

 

 

Anyway. It's not about being excellent, it's about trying to do something else. I mean, I don't roleplay that _well_ (IMO, and if it isn't so, it WAS), but I try to. And this kind of scene can work with a noob who is trying.

 

I mean, it's not the game that got in the way of doing that well. It was the players (which doesn't make them, or the GM, bad people... just means their styles contrast).

[devlin1]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

An artist can draw "Y-Man grabs X-Wife's hand" and the writer can insert "Doesn't this diamond ring mean anything!?" and it's an unopposed action, no roll. Next panel, Y-Man is pushed aside, and X-Wife runs away through the hex Y-Man was occupying, even though he has 60 strength. In a game, X-Wife may have double digit defensive combat value, and immediately you have a contest of flying hands manoeuvring for position. If there was a next panel Y-Man would be way too strong for a wimpy martial artist to push. (I've seen that.)

 

Player dialogue, not made up: "I don't think so - go on, roll if you think you're tough!"

 

Now, I'm not sure if that quote was 100% right, I can't quite pin down where I heard it - but I did hear it in game in a situation a lot like that, not with the guys I used to adventure with regularly, but not in a convention game either. I mean, this is how plenty of people play.

These are petty players with petty concerns who care nothing for story or character, and as such, their "style" of "play" has little bearing on this thread's topic, which is what works in comics that doesn't work in Champions. Even the best RPG is easily ruined by idiots. They may as well be playing baseball for all this has to do with Champions or roleplaying in general.

Does that give you a sense of the level of play I'm referring to?

Yes. Unfortunately. Why even associate with those people, even at a con? I'd get up and leave.

[Eosin]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

OK' date=' here is a made-up example:[/quote']

 

I have met a few players like this and I consider it to be something of the "I will die before you capture me" mentality of gaming. It also has to do with the "My dice bag is bigger than your dice bag" syndrome.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

The persistent enemy--this can work, but it's very tricky to do well in Champions, because I think players get very frustrated having an enemy that keeps coming back, even when the heroes put forth a "full court press" to take the bad guy(s) out for good(or for a really long time). But in the comics, sometimes, a bad guy might take a year(or three) to finally bring down.

 

Having PCs temporarily get mind-warped and go bad can actually be a blast to roleplay, but you do have to have the right attitude as a player.

 

Mental powers are much more effective in the comics(and sometimes much less effective) than they are in Champions. I don't see a lot of instances of people instantly breaking out of the hold of a mental power. I think there's also a tremendous aversion to mentalists and mental powers among some players(they used to be the first target in a combat!)

 

The biggest difference, imo, is that nobody fights their archetypes that much in most games i play--everyone practices metagaming when combat starts, and goes after the mismatch(the mentalist does something nasty to the brick, the brick drops a car on the martial artist, the energy projector tees off on their mentalist, the martial artist puts a grab or throw on their energy projector, etc.) the only way to change this, somewhat, is if the PCs personal nemeses are the same archetypes, and the players roleplay a showdown accordingly("he's mine!")

 

Generally, combat efficiency is nice when you're a player, but sucks when you're a GM, because then you have to worry about "okay, what tweaked-out exploitative move will they pull in this scenario?"

[David Blue]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Megaplayboy: "Mental powers are much more effective in the comics(and sometimes much less effective) than they are in Champions.

 

Yep. I can't blame the game for being more consistently middle-ish though.

 

Megaplayboy: "The biggest difference, imo, is that nobody fights their archetypes that much in most games i play."

 

Yeah-yeah-yeah! This is the sort of thing in principle you can do, and some happy people play in games where it is done - but in practical politics the gaming experience is so often so different from what we see in the source material.

 

 

OK, stepping well away from my self-made quality-of-play quagmire, which I regret, let me take it from the top, again:

1. Does grab-and-throw enjoy anything like the eminence in Champions games that it does in the source material?

2. Is this a problem?

I suggest that the answer to those questions might be "no way" and "very much so".

[nexus]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Fighting crime in a thong. I've tried it and trust me, it doesn't work in the real world.

 

Not sure about in game though.

[David Blue]

Re: Things that work in comics but don't work in Champions

 

Fighting crime in a thong. I've tried it and trust me, it doesn't work in the real world.

 

Not sure about in game though.

 

Are you sure that's true for both sexes?