What to do about missing evidence?

[DoctorItron]

I've got a GMing dilemma due to a PC's arrest for hiding evidence from the Japanese cops. Please read and comment on the proposed resolution. Alternative resolutions are welcome, too.

 

My Champions players found some dragon eggs while assaulting a VIPER nest on Monster Island. One of the PCs, a teenage ubermage coincidentally named Dragon, determined that the eggs are too dangerous to leave lying around, so he cast a spell to send the eggs into a pocket dimension until he can further study the situation.

 

I'm not criticizing the player. It was a reasonable in-character decision for Dragon. However, the MTF (Metahuman Task Force, Japan's equivalent to PRIMUS) was participating in the attack on VIPER and saw the eggs disappear. The MTF agents politely asked Dragon to return the evidence, he politely refused, the MTF politely arrested him.

 

I improvised because I didn't foresee this event. Dragon was carted off to jail, fingerprinted, and then easily made bail. Other things took up the bulk of the session and we never delved into the legal issues. The MTF has a solid case. I don't expect Dragon to return the eggs, and I expect a speedy trial where he pleads guilty.

 

I'm most concerned about the character being sentenced to prison until he returns the eggs. Dragon's powers allow easy escape so he can go back to his NYC-based superhero team, but his secret ID is a Japanese citizen, making it unlikely that the United States would oppose extradition. I do not want to turn the PCs into fugitives from the law.

 

I'm thinking that, barring any surprises from my players, the MTF will request extradition and the US for some reason takes an extended time reviewing the request. That lets me postpone the issue until other in-game events cause a pardon to occur.

 

Your thoughts?

[Magmarock]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

That all depends.

 

If these dragon eggs are integral to the game, then have the PC convicted (unless he agrees to return the eggs) and then have the Player make a new PC to run.

 

If the eggs are not important, then the PC can claim that he destroyed the eggs because they were a danger to society. Then, let him off with a slap on the wrist (probation).

 

It's your game, so do what you want.

 

Personally, I'd have the eggs get recovered from the pocket dimension by a third party if the PC refuses to hand them over.

 

Mags

[Vanguard00]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

I've got a GMing dilemma due to a PC's arrest for hiding evidence from the Japanese cops. Please read and comment on the proposed resolution. Alternative resolutions are welcome, too.

 

My Champions players found some dragon eggs while assaulting a VIPER nest on Monster Island. One of the PCs, a teenage ubermage coincidentally named Dragon, determined that the eggs are too dangerous to leave lying around, so he cast a spell to send the eggs into a pocket dimension until he can further study the situation.

 

I'm not criticizing the player. It was a reasonable in-character decision for Dragon. However, the MTF (Metahuman Task Force, Japan's equivalent to PRIMUS) was participating in the attack on VIPER and saw the eggs disappear. The MTF agents politely asked Dragon to return the evidence, he politely refused, the MTF politely arrested him.

 

I improvised because I didn't foresee this event. Dragon was carted off to jail, fingerprinted, and then easily made bail. Other things took up the bulk of the session and we never delved into the legal issues. The MTF has a solid case. I don't expect Dragon to return the eggs, and I expect a speedy trial where he pleads guilty.

 

I'm most concerned about the character being sentenced to prison until he returns the eggs. Dragon's powers allow easy escape so he can go back to his NYC-based superhero team, but his secret ID is a Japanese citizen, making it unlikely that the United States would oppose extradition. I do not want to turn the PCs into fugitives from the law.

 

I'm thinking that, barring any surprises from my players, the MTF will request extradition and the US for some reason takes an extended time reviewing the request. That lets me postpone the issue until other in-game events cause a pardon to occur.

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

Realistically? The guy's screwed. Through the combination of circumstances you and the player have put the PC into a no-win situation. If you want to enforce game realism, have him take his lumps. You may have to let the character go to jail or risk undermining in-game authority.

 

Other options, however, present themselves. One...maybe someone else steals the eggs. Another mage, perhaps, or maybe some property of the eggs causes them to shunt back into the home dimension. However you do this, do it publically so the character is "off the hook" (though maybe with a stern warning).

 

Perhaps they're willing to give the hero the benefit of the doubt providing he can prove how dangerous the eggs are. Maybe he can bring just one back as representative, thus leaving the rest out of nasty hands.

 

Another idea is to simply allow the hero's testimony in lieu of the actual evidence. If the authorities (Japanese or US) are on good terms with heroes and vice versa, they may well decide to accept the testimony of the hero as an "expert witness", thus preventing the eggs from falling into the wrong hands while preserving the integrity of the system. They may still ask the hero to do community service of some sort--it doesn't do to have a hero flaunting the law, after all, but this scenario might give you a little leeway in handling the situation, and incidentally could provide other plot hooks.

 

It's late and I'm on drugs (cold medicine, that is), but these are thoughts off the top o' my head.

[wylodmayer]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

I'm not sure I agree with Vanguard's assertation that Dragon is screwed, although the rest of his advice sounds good to me. I disagree with that initial point simply because in any singular, given situation, almost anything can happen. In News of the Weird, I once read a story about a judge who used to fine defendants in front of him in strange ways, such as in foreign currency, beads, or cans of tuna. Now, this guy got forced into retirement not long after, but the point is, you never know.

 

The crucial point is the player's perception of the situation. Dragon sent the eggs into a pocket dimension because he felt that they were dangerous. Well, heck, it's not like the things are ready to hatch next week... or, if they are, it's not like there isn't a way to prevent that - certainly someone can cook up a stasis field or something. The point is, Dragon has to be convinced that bringing the eggs back (a) is not dangerous or at least not immediately dangerous and that ( bringing the eggs back serves some useful purpose.

 

Now, the authorities having already asked politely, and Dragon having refused, we can conclude that he won't be convinced by a simple request. Obviously the authorities already know what it was he sent away, and if he gave any kind of statement at all, they clearly know why he sent it away. Now, if these heroes are at all known as heroes, or if the authorities just want to avoid antagonizing people who can help them stop the odd alien invasion, they can always try honey rather than vinegar. Have someone he trusts or can be made to trust explain to him the benefits of cooperation. I mean, where did the eggs come from? Surely it's worth bringing them back long enough to examine them for evidence of how VIPER got them and what *kind* of dragon eggs they are. Besides, it would be a favor for some powerful people with influence, which never hurts. Also, this same person - perhaps a third-party superhero who is made aware of the situation - might emphasize the downside of not cooperating. If this Dragon guy has *any* Psych Lims that make him a hero, pointing out that failing to find some compromise might turn him and anyone who helps him into a fugitive (thus greatly reducing their effectiveness as superheroes) should work.

 

Of course, the key thing to keep in mind is what sort of message you want to send about your world. In a very four-color game, superheroes are sort of the be-all/end-all of justice. Superman doesn't (usually) arrest someone only to worry about chains of evidence and so on. On the other hand, in some games, that is precisely a concern. The question is whether you want to have a game where the superheroes are positioned as "larger" than the non-hero authorities. Because the players in a game world do not actually inhabit their characters, and therefore do not live in the world full time, they cannot be assumed to have the same intuitive awareness of the functioning of the world in the way we are aware of ours. It would be impossible to explicate every detail of the "feel" of the world, so certain key moments must be made to suggest the feel. In situations like this one, if Dragon's failure to cooperate with the authorities causes great problems in his life as a hero, then the implicit message is that heroes are not, in fact, above and beyond the human world, but rather entangled and responsible to it as much as any person. This may not be appropriate in some games. Think carefully about what sort of feel you are trying for, and how any given response by the NPCs will reinforce or detract from it. By developing a consistent feeling, the players will become comfortable enough to respond instinctively to situations, as we might automatically make assumptions about how things work here in the real world.

 

Hope that helped.

[Metaphysician]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

Did the character try explaining that they are too dangerous to be kept around?? Offer to return them after he has examined them sufficiently, expedited?? Bring them back so they can be used as evidence, but set up containment for within police custody??

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

Do the Japanese courts recognize the existance of dragons and dragon eggs? If so, what is their status? Are dragons recognized as sentients and entitled to any legal protections? If so, what's Japan's stand on legal status of the unborn?

 

If Japanese courts don't recognize them, this would be a hard case for the prosecution. For example, try telling a US judge "Mr. Johnson failed to produce the magical pixie dust observed at the scene, and will not reveal the mystic incantation used to shunt it into a pocket dimension, your honor." Even in a superhero world that may recognize aliens, telepathy, etc. this could easily be a big stretch if magic isn't recognized, etc. by the courts/law.

 

Also, how do the agents know these are dragon eggs or any kind of useful evidence? If the character says that they were egg-shaped bombs he sent away to avoid harm, or ostrich eggs, what can they prove? Were they in a box labeled "Dragon Eggs, Jumbo White"?

 

Do the Japanese authorities really need these specific items in order to convict anyone? They're VIPER - being in a secret VIPER base wearing VIPER uniforms, shooting at the MTF agents, etc should be more than enough to put everyone involved away. I can see the MTF dropping the matter, or making a deal to drop it if the PC does X for them.

[DoctorItron]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

Thank you all for the constructive comments. Keep 'em comin'. Now, my comments to your comments:

 

Superheroes in my campaign world are definitely not above the law. The campaign has a Bronze Age morality. There's no superhuman registration act or anti-mutant hysteria, but people don't want supers to get special privileges, either. Superpowers are still fairly new to the world (4+ years) and the legal system has yet to catch up.

 

The PCs are arguably the most powerful superhero team on earth. They are well respected. Their relationship with the Japanese gov't is currently tenuous, though, because in a prior adventure the PCs took actions that made the MTF "lose face". Additionally, the MTF works with Japanese supers, and they think they can competently deal with any items recovered from a VIPER nest.

 

The PC who took the eggs, Dragon, has been truthful with the authorities. He's already made a statement that "the eggs are too dangerous for your scientists to be allowed to study". If it came down to a legal battle, Dragon would probably not lie in court, and would therefore be convicted. I have several better options than a trial. (I won't post the options here because some of my players might read this)

 

The PC Dragon checked the eggs more carefully after he posted bail. The eggs *are* ready to hatch "soon" (whenever I deem dramatically appropriate, probably within a couple of months). The eggs' mommy is an ancient Chinese dragon known as "Serpent X". Very high rank within VIPER, and may even be the Supreme Serpent. That rules out returning the eggs to her.

[Chuckg]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

There's a very simple legal argument here.

 

Those eggs are not 'evidence'.

 

They're living beings. (Sentient ones too, presumably.)

 

So the Japanese government is taking the legal position that baby dragons -- dragons!!! -- are merely objects to be confiscated and stored away.

 

Whereas the brave and noble hero is making sure that these poor, little pre-infant dragons are receiving proper care.

 

... if the MTF is concerned about 'losing face', having it gently explained to them that they will lose positively *enormous* amounts of face should the above line of argument be taken to the press would probably enlighten them to the wisdom of a quick, discreet, ouf-of-court settlement.

 

 

ObSF -- "Little Fuzzy", by H. Beam Piper

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

Is there some "neutral authority" - a super-mage or someone else in the campaign who is not affiliated with Dragon's hero team - who might be acceptable to both the prosecution and the defense as an expert witness in this matter, and who could examine the eggs and either confirm or deny Dragon's assertion re: their dangerousness? If so, that might be an acceptable solution.

 

In general, disobeying a direct order given by law enforcement is a bad idea, but there are sometimes mitigating circumstances - and immediate risk is one of these. For example, a person who has to speed to get a critically wounded person to the hospital can usually successfully argue against not slowing for a cop, presuming the hospital records support his or her claims. At very least the penalty in such situations would be lessened greatly.

[freakboy6117]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

you need to offer him an out.

 

The MTF aren't really interested in the eggs[well they are but they know ist probably safer where he put them] but they cant just let him slide on it because it looks bad. Their the goverment and they can't just let a civilian take away something dangerous without some official reponse, would they let the teams super scientist just walk off with a alien dooms day weapon?

 

so they offer him a deal we drop the charges on two conditions

1 you report all your findings on the eggs along with regular status reports to our magic department and destroy or render them harmless following the research .

2 you work for us occasionally as a magical consultant.

 

Now he's free and you've just got an instant plot hook when ever you need to get the team involved insomething MTF call up Dragon an say 'hey can you come in an have a look at soemthing for us?'

[PoorWandering 1]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

The PC Dragon checked the eggs more carefully after he posted bail. The eggs *are* ready to hatch "soon" (whenever I deem dramatically appropriate, probably within a couple of months). The eggs' mommy is an ancient Chinese dragon known as "Serpent X". Very high rank within VIPER, and may even be the Supreme Serpent. That rules out returning the eggs to her.

 

I wonder how long mummy will wait after hearing that the hero has the eggs. If I were the hero I would keep an eye over my shoulder for viper kidnap squads. Also the hero effectively kidnapped serpent x's children. One can assume the gloves are off. Like it or not your game just went iron age. I expect viper to kidnap the staff and students on a school for the dependents of US Military personnel in retaliation. This is a Grendal's mother situation after all. The only way not to have to deal with this issue would be to talk with the player and change the past so that the eggs were never there for him to pocket.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

The PC Dragon checked the eggs more carefully after he posted bail. The eggs *are* ready to hatch "soon" (whenever I deem dramatically appropriate' date=' probably within a couple of months). The eggs' mommy is an ancient Chinese dragon known as "Serpent X". Very high rank within VIPER, and may even be the Supreme Serpent. That rules out returning the eggs to her.[/quote']

 

Here is another angle. Seeing that Serpent X is so far up at the top of Viper's food chain and that these eggs are so important to her, I think she would pullout all the stops to get those eggs back. I can't see why she could not dispatch a covert retrieval team equipped with a serpent mage. Detect/analyze recent dimension disturbances at the location to find the pocket and extradimensional movement usable against others to recover the eggs. This is child's play for a good serpent mage. While the eggs may be safe from the reach of the MTF, they are not safe from the reach of Viper. It is just a matter of time before they can recover them. As for the PC Dragon, they should start acquiring a taste for prison food or planing an escape because without those eggs they will have no bargaining position with the Japanese government.

 

 

.

[PoorWandering 1]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

of course Serpent X could also simply ask for the eggs return. Making it very clear what the penalties are for an incorrect answer. You could but the poor character in a nice mental/moral vice as the Govt and the Serpent increase pressure and hatching time gets closer with every passing second. Ooooo this could get EVIL. Poor doomed player. He's effectively holding a box with a timer counting down and two people are saying give it to me or die. Dammed if he does dammed if he doesnt and dammed if he does nothing.

[Magmarock]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

I see a hostage situation coming on, with the trade off being a few dragon eggs for the lives of... many, many humans.

 

Simple enough. Make the odds too tough for the heroes to beat, period. That will force the PC to turn over the eggs. Unfortunately, it will be to the bad guys. But hey, he did have the chance to give them to the Japanese athorities and he didn't.

 

Such is.

 

Mags

[BNakagawa]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

There's a very simple legal argument here.

 

Those eggs are not 'evidence'.

 

They're living beings. (Sentient ones too, presumably.)

 

So the Japanese government is taking the legal position that baby dragons -- dragons!!! -- are merely objects to be confiscated and stored away.

 

Whereas the brave and noble hero is making sure that these poor, little pre-infant dragons are receiving proper care.

 

... if the MTF is concerned about 'losing face', having it gently explained to them that they will lose positively *enormous* amounts of face should the above line of argument be taken to the press would probably enlighten them to the wisdom of a quick, discreet, ouf-of-court settlement.

 

 

ObSF -- "Little Fuzzy", by H. Beam Piper

 

So now he's a kidnapper? You aren't helping.

 

Any mage of any skill ought to be able to procure eggs of some other sort that can be altered to look like dragon eggs to the untrained eye. If they're very skilled, then even to the trained eye.

 

If he's got some sort of honor code that precludes any sort of chicanery, then he's in a bit of a pinch. Of course, he's going to have to also state for the record what right he has to the dragon eggs. This isn't D&D and you don't automatically get stuff because you snuffed the previous owner.

 

The world has laws and you either abide by them or you become a vigilante...or a villain.

 

$0.02

[DoctorItron]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

There's a very simple legal argument here.

 

Those eggs are not 'evidence'.

 

They're living beings. (Sentient ones too, presumably.)

 

So the Japanese government is taking the legal position that baby dragons -- dragons!!! -- are merely objects to be confiscated and stored away.

 

Whereas the brave and noble hero is making sure that these poor, little pre-infant dragons are receiving proper care.

 

... if the MTF is concerned about 'losing face', having it gently explained to them that they will lose positively *enormous* amounts of face should the above line of argument be taken to the press would probably enlighten them to the wisdom of a quick, discreet, ouf-of-court settlement.

 

ObSF -- "Little Fuzzy", by H. Beam Piper

 

Supers have only existed in the world for 4 years. There's not much precedent for applying human rights to non-human sentient creatures. The courts are still hashing out the definition of "human".

 

The Japanese gov't is taking the position that these eggs are "evidence" until proven otherwise. Beyond the word of a civilian superhero who "stole" the eggs, there's nothing to indicate the eggs are alive. All the gov't knows is: a) They saw a PC take two items from the VIPER nest, and The PC has stated the items are eggs. The gov't won't truly know if the missing items are eggs, bombs, or something else unless one of their experts examines the eggs.

 

If it's proven that the eggs are in fact sentient creatures that are entitled to the protection of human laws, it possibly becomes worse for the PC. The charges are upgraded from taking evidence to kidnapping. Imagine if Lex Luthor had 2 infants. Superman arrests Lex, turns him over to the police, then announces "these are my kids now, Lex is a bad parent, and I can't trust the courts to place these kids in a good home".

 

Most people, including gov't agencies, do not know if "dragons" really exist. PRIMUS is still baffled by a supervillain who can shift between hydra and human form - scientists are still debating whether she is a human with a superpower that allows her to change shape, or if she is indeed non-human.

[Chuckg]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

> Supers have only existed in the world for 4 years. There's not much

> precedent for applying human rights to non-human sentient creatures. The

> courts are still hashing out the definition of "human".

 

Then they'd fall under the legal classification of 'animals' -- which still can't be impounded in the same manner as non-living evidence, due to the need to care for them.

 

> The Japanese gov't is taking the position that these eggs are "evidence"

> until proven otherwise. Beyond the word of a civilian superhero who "stole"

> the eggs, there's nothing to indicate the eggs are alive.

 

Umm... they're eggs? They can easily be shown to be alive by any competent biologist who has a gander at them with an X-ray or ultrasound or test kit or something?

 

Heck, they're eggs of something new and unique. Drag the endangered species people into it.

[DoctorItron]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

I wonder how long mummy will wait after hearing that the hero has the eggs. If I were the hero I would keep an eye over my shoulder for viper kidnap squads. Also the hero effectively kidnapped serpent x's children. One can assume the gloves are off. Like it or not your game just went iron age. I expect viper to kidnap the staff and students on a school for the dependents of US Military personnel in retaliation. This is a Grendal's mother situation after all. The only way not to have to deal with this issue would be to talk with the player and change the past so that the eggs were never there for him to pocket.

 

Good observation. I see 2 other people made related comments.

 

The situation is even more complex than my original post. The eggs were found during a long story arc where the PCs and MTF have pretty much wiped out VIPER in Japan. The 5 largest nests and several smaller nests have been eliminated. The remaining nests may go rogue or defect to the yakuza, although Serpent X, VIPER's unseen commander for Asia, escaped and might be able to regroup.

 

After the PC got out of jail and checked the eggs, he cast a spell to search for mommy. It wasn't a tough spell; as he found out, there's only one dragon on the entire earth. The PC then made mental contact with mommy, said he found her children, made it clear he wasn't the one who stole them, and wanted to know how to return the eggs. Mommy teleported to the PCs and a conversation unsued. Too make a long story short, the PCs learn that ... MOMMY IS SERPENT X!!!

 

A battle unsues, ending in a stalemate. Serpent X is less concernedabout recovering the eggs than expected, and is actually more protective of her lackeys (The VIPER Super Serpent Squad supervillains). The PCs retain ownership of the 2 eggs. Serpent X may have more eggs under her control.

 

So, now the PCs know that the eggs are the offspring of a dragon with a senior leadership role in VIPER. This might give them even more incentive to hold onto the eggs. The PCs now know who Serpent X is, but have no convenient way to prove it to the Japanese authorities who distrust them because of the evidence theft and prior incidents, although the sight of the PCs fighting a huge Chinese dragon over Tokyo might help their case (ya think?).

 

Maybe I'll have the eggs hatch and give the PC a choice: spend XP to buy followers, or the babies are evil and escape to VIPER.

[DoctorItron]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

SNIP

Umm... they're eggs? They can easily be shown to be alive by any competent biologist who has a gander at them with an X-ray or ultrasound or test kit or something?

SNIP

 

I guess one of my earlier posts was vague. The Japanese gov't thinks the PC took "evidence". He told them otherwise. As long as he keeps the eggs hidden, though, no biologist gets a chance to check. So, the gov't continues to view this as a simple (but significant) case of evidence tampering rather than kidnapping or the discovery of a new lifeform.

 

Gov't prosecutors worry that VIPER's lawyers can argue "your honor-san, these dishonorable gaijin have absconded with evidence that is critical for my client's case, and planted this other evidence".

[UglyJimStudly]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

A factor that may bear on the discussion: Japanese criminal law is not especially similar to common law countries (such as the US). Wikipedia only has a short blurb on it, but notes:

 

"99 percent of criminal defendants are convicted in Japan, and almost all are convicted following their own confession. Prosecutors tend to bring charges only when they have a signed confession from the accused, and such confessions often occur after long questioning by police. Although defendants have a right to counsel, it is generally not possible for them to obtain counsel between their arrest and indictment."

 

I haven't been able to find any more detail on the actual processes involved, but it seems to me it's unlikely the hero will get out on bail, particularly if there's some kind of international repercussions. Possibly there would be a meeting involving the Japanese authorities, some kind of diplomat from the country the hero's from, and the hero himself during which they'd hash out a deal. Or more specifically, the diplomat and the authorities would hash out a deal, and then the diplomat would request the hero cooperate to smooth things over. That way it's not just the Japanese that are leaning on him, but his own country as well.

[freakboy6117]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

the goverment have mopre than enough case to make it stick even without the eggs they will need to compel dragon to testify as long as he is willing to state that the eggs where a clear and present danger and had to be removed for the safety of the public and MTF personell they can't pull that trick if the eggs wehre a bomb and the player had atomised it to stop it detonating he coulnt be charged with taking evidence he needs to explain and be a witness.

 

thats why you should offer him a deal

[philnicau]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

things to know about the Japanese Legal system,

1) They use the French based "Presumption of Guilt" ie: you are presumed Guilty unless you can prove you are innocent.

2) The police can hold you for questioning for 5 days you without being charged, and you have no right to a legal representative. or phone call etc, and at the request of the prosecution this can be extended to 30 days.

3) Japanese courts are very slow with trials often taking years.

4) 99.5% of all cases which go to court are found guilty

5) the prison system is very strict, and brutal, with prisoners having few if any rights.

6) Japan still has the death penalty and executes a few prisoners a year.

[Zeropoint]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

Eep!

[zornwil]

Re: What to do about missing evidence?

 

I know this is trite, but I'd look towards creating a situation where the PC can atone by going on a special mission for Japan that only he or he plus his team are uniquely suited for.

 

That or define non-imprisonment punishments that would make sense for Japan and make the game interesting - such as massive "work release" stuff whenever the PC isn't adventuring or some sort of house arrest scenarios or the like.