AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

[Vigil]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

I agree. Walt Simonson is one of the most underrated creators working in comics today. He's also responsible for what I think is singly the best Thor story ever - The Thunderfrog arc. I though it was pure genuius and a brilliant take on the character. Plus he created Beta Ray Bill and did the great, original Surtur story. All high points in my opinion but I think the current (?) Thor team of Michael Oeming, Andrea Devito and Lauar Villari had every possibility of becoming just as good. I think the current team could have been another high water mark given time.

 

And speaking of high water marks, given the universal disdain for the Disassembled story, what do you see as THE BEST AVENGERS STORY ARC EVER? ot THE WORST?

 

In my opinion the best was either, 1) The Nefaria arc from #164 - #166 or The Proctor/Gatherers Arc from #355 - #375. It started slowly but became , I think, the best alternate reality story ever.

 

As for the worst...there was a lot of crap in the early 200's that I'd like to forget but it'll take a while to figure out what was the worst...maybe issue #200.

 

 

 

Vigil

[Chimpira]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

As for The Captain Britain storyline, I never eally liked it and she really didn't seem to fit (since when are novice heroes, right out of the box, invited into The Earth's Mightiest Heroes

 

You mean besides The Vision, Jocasta, Rage, and Captain Marvel?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Oh' date=' and I know there is the "Suspension of disbelief" and all, but Wolverine would NEVER be an avenger. I am sorry.[/quote']

 

Or to phrase it more properly, the Avengers would never stoop so low as to admit a loser like Wolverine.

[winterhawk]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

I am a HUGE Avengers fan (I was working on a run from 1-200 before I got laid off), and I hate this storyline so much, I have dropped all other Marvel titles from my pull, especially the Bendis ones (even Powers, which I really enjoy). I have a feeling that this one is going to come back and bite Marvel on the posterior. I hope I'm right.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

And speaking of high water marks' date=' given the universal disdain for the Disassembled story, what do you see as THE BEST AVENGERS STORY ARC EVER? ot THE WORST? [/quote']

 

Best? Probably the Korvac/Michael saga, or the Celestial Madonna saga.

 

Worst? "The Crossing. No contest. Random fecal stains on paper would read better than the AVENGERS books of that era.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

You mean besides The Vision' date=' Jocasta, Rage, and Captain Marvel? [/quote']

 

Hawkeye, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch had appeared only a few times, and always as villains, before becoming the Avengers. Black Panther had maybe half a dozen appearances.

 

Mantis was brand spanking new when she joined. Patsy Walker got Avengers status pretty much as soon as she put on the Cat costume and adopted the Hellcat name. Moondragon had virtually no appearances before being an Avenger (nb: the last two were, IIRC, either probationary or tryout members).

 

There's a pretty lengthy list of freshly minted, or nearly so, Supers becoming Avengers.

[Blue]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Or to phrase it more properly' date=' the Avengers would never stoop so low as to admit a loser like Wolverine.[/quote']

Why not? They had Henry Pymm. He caused more problems than he fixed!

[Chimpira]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Hawkeye, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch had appeared only a few times, and always as villains, before becoming the Avengers. Black Panther had maybe half a dozen appearances.

 

Mantis was brand spanking new when she joined. Patsy Walker got Avengers status pretty much as soon as she put on the Cat costume and adopted the Hellcat name. Moondragon had virtually no appearances before being an Avenger (nb: the last two were, IIRC, either probationary or tryout members).

 

There's a pretty lengthy list of freshly minted, or nearly so, Supers becoming Avengers.

Mantis. I knew there was a lot more but I do not know why I forgot her. I knew Patsy from my Defenders days and so I left her out because I did not read any of the Avengers while she was there.

[Sketchpad]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Personally ... I find the storyline very dull ... yeah, so Bendis killed the Avengers ... big whoop. Buseik's already stated that, if need be, he'd bring at least one of them back. I'm half expecting to see them all return by the end.

As for the new team ... Guh! Spider-Man is a good character ... but pity the Avengers as his 20d6 Unluck creates Avengers: Disassembled II! And Luke Cage? LUKE CAGE?! Christmas! Wolverine? I can think of some better X-people to be in the story. Sentry? Umm ... oookay.

The best Avengers story, IMHO, is Avengers Forever. I loved the concept As I agree with the Crossing crap ... my second fav was the Busiek/Perez Ultron story ... good stuff!

[Vigil]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

IMHO there's a couple of types of charcters mentioned above and distinctions have to be drawn.

 

In the case of The Vision, like Wonder man beefore him he was, essentially, more powerful than the rest of that roster combined so he easily earned his place as one of Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Captain Marvel was exactly the same. At the point of her origin she was one of Earth's Mightiest Heroes and they showed that so she "earned' her place in that way, although she lacked any real skill or training...just had lots and lots of power.

 

Jocasta, to my knowledge never officially joined the Avengers. She was more an ornament than a member.

 

Members like Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and Hawkeye earned there place also by being (by the standrads of the time) among Earth's Mightiest Villains. So, if they reform it only makes sense that they would make the cut. Additionally, in the case of Hawkeye and Quicksilver they were also highly skillful and, in Wanda's case, she was a walking plot device...which is always handy...just ask Ultron.

 

Mantis falls into "the best there is at what she does category" so no problems there. Remember she was shown as punching Thor's punk card with her MA skills so she's a serious character.

 

Black Panther was an extraordinarily skilled fighter and thinker (he took on the whole FF prior to signing up) so there's little doubt as to his credentials.

 

In the realm of mentalists, Moondragon was right up there so she qualifiies.

 

The broad class of members such as Hellcat, Rage, Darkhawk, D Man, etc are what are technically termed "bad ideas" and we should speak no further of them.

 

Seriously, though, these charcters were added by various writers to fulfill, in one sense or another the role of "ingenue" and to add balance and diversity to the line up (remember the "All White Avengers" comments). As such, they worked to various degrees. Some worked pretty well (Firebird and Justice for example) and others were dismal failures (all those mentioned above and more). In fact, in certain cases, you get characters who cut it power wise (Gilgamesh and Sandman for example) but don't make it on personality. It's all part of the glorious chaos that is The Avengers.

[Vigil]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

In fact, looking at things realistically, if The Avengers absolutely held to the "earth's mightiest heroes" standard, they be the original Defenders. But they try their best, anyway.

 

Vigil

[starblaze]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

I started checking it out but after they brought up, yet again, the whole Hank/Jan wife beater thing that as far as I know was resolved issues ago. The Captain Britian story was OK, but Wasp really was acting like a rank amatuer.

 

IMO, after Busiek left the Avengers as their writer it all started going downhill from there. Kurt had brought back the Avengers to their former glory and then Bendis had to go an kill it.

[Eyendasky80]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

As for Sentry' date=' no but his ultimate foe was his own shadow or something. If he remembered more about himself this shadow thing would show up and make his life and everyone else's life hell. So he deleted his memories & the worlds memories of him with Mr. Fantastic's help. No problem. He must have remembered a bit more again.[/quote']

 

I was being sort of rhetorical because I knew the answer already and Sentry is the Void, it was a part of him. I guess you could say it was his shadow, but it wasn't a separate entity, he controlled its actions. He wanted to be a hero so he needed a villain as powerful as himself to protect the world from. It might have been subconscious but according the Sentry himself, it was more like denial.

 

 

 

and they said "The Sentry is the Void!!!!" about a million times.

[Hermit]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

I'm reserving judgement on the new team until I see how Bendis handles it. I'm actually interested in it cheifly because of Jessica Drew being back.

 

Frankly, IMO the worst writer for characterization I've seen was Austen. Gag. I paid fifty cents for one of his Avengers comics. I was ripped off.

[KawangaKid]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Haven't picked up the book.

 

Been told by friends that the New Invaders is interesting to read. I've picked up the current Thor run and have concluded that it's possibly one of the better things to come out of this. The writing is excellent and I'm glad the current writer will continue to the relaunch of the Thor title.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Best Avengers arc. Just about any of Busieks, and I also nominate John's Red scull story. I think that between the two of them the run was the best avengers there have ever been.....

 

But my favorite avengers bit was an old one, back when the bouncing blue beast was on the team, and they were in a hearing about whether the Avengers were needed by the government (with Gyrich trying to pull thier status or somesuch), and big monster shows up. Beast breaks off a chairleg and says (paraphrased from an imperfect memory) "Maybe you are right. Maybe the Avengers are passe, in that case you go deal with the the thing" and hands Gyrich the leg. Gyrich taps it into his open hand a few times as if thinkiing about it, then drops his head and says "Go". Case dismissed.

 

One of the best avengers moments, and one of the best in comics in general.

[Chimpira]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

IMHO there's a couple of types of charcters mentioned above and distinctions have to be drawn.

 

In the case of The Vision, like Wonder man beefore him he was, essentially, more powerful than the rest of that roster combined so he easily earned his place as one of Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Captain Marvel was exactly the same. At the point of her origin she was one of Earth's Mightiest Heroes and they showed that so she "earned' her place in that way, although she lacked any real skill or training...just had lots and lots of power.

 

Jocasta, to my knowledge never officially joined the Avengers. She was more an ornament than a member.

 

Members like Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and Hawkeye earned there place also by being (by the standrads of the time) among Earth's Mightiest Villains. So, if they reform it only makes sense that they would make the cut. Additionally, in the case of Hawkeye and Quicksilver they were also highly skillful and, in Wanda's case, she was a walking plot device...which is always handy...just ask Ultron.

 

Mantis falls into "the best there is at what she does category" so no problems there. Remember she was shown as punching Thor's punk card with her MA skills so she's a serious character.

 

Black Panther was an extraordinarily skilled fighter and thinker (he took on the whole FF prior to signing up) so there's little doubt as to his credentials.

 

In the realm of mentalists, Moondragon was right up there so she qualifiies.

 

The broad class of members such as Hellcat, Rage, Darkhawk, D Man, etc are what are technically termed "bad ideas" and we should speak no further of them.

 

Seriously, though, these charcters were added by various writers to fulfill, in one sense or another the role of "ingenue" and to add balance and diversity to the line up (remember the "All White Avengers" comments). As such, they worked to various degrees. Some worked pretty well (Firebird and Justice for example) and others were dismal failures (all those mentioned above and more). In fact, in certain cases, you get characters who cut it power wise (Gilgamesh and Sandman for example) but don't make it on personality. It's all part of the glorious chaos that is The Avengers.

True but you are the one that said "out of the box." Your statement as it was written was a little flawed. As for all the above, I think that The Vision worked quite well. Props on bringing out Gilgamesh though. I had wiped him clean from my mind. Oh, well time for another scrubbing then.

[Pegasus]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

I can't really think of a specific story arc, but my favorite Avengers era was when Hank was trapped at ten feet tall and became Goliath. The team was Cap, Hawkeye (his heyday), Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Wasp, and Goliath. I believe this is what is referred to as "old school."

[Cheiro]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

I have read the Avengers, off and on, for the better part of twenty five years and am of the opinion that this is a reversion to "event" comics that proliferated in the early to mid '90's (Death of Superman, Marriage of Spiderman). I think Blue is on the nose with the observation that the death of these mainstays is unnecessary.

I get the distinct impression that the new Avengers line-up is a response to the JLA.

D.C. has all their "biggies" in the JLA. Recognizable in their own right (for the most part) by the general public.

The Avengers, with the exception of Cap and possibly Iron Man, is composed of "unknowns" to the general public.

I believe Marvel is engaged in what is known as "brand building". They are attempting to capitalize on the successes of the Spider Man and X-Men movie franchises by adding recognizable characters to their flag ship hero group. Unfortunately, they are doing it at the expense of continuity.

It's the kind of decision made by corporate types wearing suits.

The success of Justice League on Catoon Network and the merchandising it generates is probably what they are looking at.

[Vigil]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

You may have a point Cheiro but it's a strange kind of brand building. Luke Cage isn't an "a" list character by any stretch of anyone's imagination and really isn't anything but a writer's vanity. The same goes doubly for Sentry and Spider Woman (unless you asssume there to be some sort of parallelism between the Spiders and the Hawks). I think if Marvel was really trying to build a brand of its most recognizable characters they would have had to have included The Hulk, at the very least and most likely would have to include characters like The Thing (or other members of The FF). On that basis alone I can't see this as any sort of serious attempt at brand nuilding but only as an exercise in egoism on Bendis's part.

 

Vigil

[SKJAM!]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Why not? They had Henry Pymm. He caused more problems than he fixed!

 

At the time he joined (founding member), Hank Pym was one of the most stable and respected heroes on Earth. Reading the Essential Ant-Man volume, it struck me just how respected Ant-Man was in his own title. Perhaps the best example was when he went up against the fellow with the hypnotic voice, who declared "If I can defeat Ant-Man, then there is no opponent who can stop me!" (paraphrased)

 

It was when he lost his own book and only ever appeared as an ensemble character in the Avengers that he started developing cracks.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

At the time he joined (founding member), Hank Pym was one of the most stable and respected heroes on Earth. Reading the Essential Ant-Man volume, it struck me just how respected Ant-Man was in his own title. Perhaps the best example was when he went up against the fellow with the hypnotic voice, who declared "If I can defeat Ant-Man, then there is no opponent who can stop me!" (paraphrased)

 

It was when he lost his own book and only ever appeared as an ensemble character in the Avengers that he started developing cracks.

 

Well, to be a bit more correct, it was during the exceptional AVENGERS run by Roy Thomas and John Buscema that Pym first started showing signs of breakdown, with the creation of Ultron and the original dissociation into his Yellowjacket persona. He was pretty stable for well over a decade after that, until pretty much out of nowhere Jim Shooter decided to turn him into a very unstable fellow - an insecure, attention-seeking, needy goof who committed one act of domestic violence (he slapped Jan one time) that contributed to his getting booted off the team. Even then, he ended up redeeming himself somewhat by the time that whole arc was finished (helping the Avengers defeat Egghead's Masters of Evil). Steady progress toward full rehabilitation occurred through his Dr. Pym personal in WEST COAST AVENGERS and through Kurt Busiek's exceptional run on AVENGERS and the AVENGERS FOREVER miniseries.

 

Now, with the success of the exaggerated, over-the-top version of Pym in ULTIMATES, the mainstream Hank Pym lost about 30 years of character development at the hands of Chuck Austen and Brian Bendis.

 

Pretty sad, really.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Frankly' date=' IMO the worst writer for characterization I've seen was Austen. Gag. I paid fifty cents for one of his Avengers comics. I was ripped off.[/quote']

 

You got that right. The capper for me was when a woman (who eventually came back as this dumbass, current incarnation of Captain Britain) appeared to have bravely sacrificed her life to save the lives of her children and the unconscious Captain America from the rampaging supervillain Thunderball.

 

Austen actually wrote Cap as referring to the woman's act of selflessness and bravery as "stupid."

[Blue]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Haven't picked up the book.

 

Been told by friends that the New Invaders is interesting to read. I've picked up the current Thor run and have concluded that it's possibly one of the better things to come out of this. The writing is excellent and I'm glad the current writer will continue to the relaunch of the Thor title.

I *do* like the New Invaders. I think it's an interesting mix of characters and the Blazing Skull is amusing as heck.

 

I've been reading the Ragnarok storyline too. I think the difference between the Avengers: Disassembled and the Thor: Ragnarok is that the Viking Gods are supposed to end in a great cataclysm, because that's how it was foretod. The Avengers are ending that way because it sells books to do things in over-the-top fashion.

 

I wasn't aware there was a Thor relaunch pending, but it doesn't surprise me. Now that I'll be curious to see how they put the pieces back together again.

[Hermit]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

You got that right. The capper for me was when a woman (who eventually came back as this dumbass, current incarnation of Captain Britain) appeared to have bravely sacrificed her life to save the lives of her children and the unconscious Captain America from the rampaging supervillain Thunderball.

 

Austen actually wrote Cap as referring to the woman's act of selflessness and bravery as "stupid."

 

Yeah, it was that sort of thing that did it for me. Heck, Hawkeye telling Cap how you 'gotta hit em' (women) was the start of my distaste.

 

Speaking of which, I hear the new Captain Britain chose the Sword of Might over the Amulet of Right... Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but isn't that the 'wrong' choice, that leads to death? or at least villainy?