Speedster question

[nexus]

In my New Universe game, I have a player who's character is a Speeder. High running, a buzz saw hand attack, they typical tricks. Recently a conflict has come up between myself and the player over an action of his I judged wouldn't work. Essentially, he wanted to tap a sheet of high impact resistant material to peices with his finger. He used the following argument

 

The principle in question, is not one of force, but based on the

principle of Harmonic Frequency, as Demonstrated by Nikola Tesla's

vibration MAchine. With it he demonstrated by using a repetitive

tapping, it was possible to set up a vibration that once the harmonic

frequency of the object was reached, would cuae it to shake apart as

if in an Earthquake. I believe I explained this in an OOC at the

time. It was using established 2oth century physics to explain how he

could statter the material, no mater how apparently indestructible,

and the fact is it doesn't take skads of time, just a steady

repetative thumping. Carlt's super speed would not allow him to smash

the wall, but it would allow him to produce the vibrations necessary

to bring it down. I reccommend getting to know Nikola Tesla, a lot of

mordern society is build on his inventions and theories.

 

I did not allow this since the wall in question was 20 Hardened Defense and couldn't ever by harmed even by his largest attacks. He did not have armor peircing, Penetrating or any other modifiers on his attack power, nor the Speedster tricks skill. Being able to completely destroy anything in a few seconds seemed, to me, a bit much to give away because of a SFX.

 

But, as I tend to get short tempered when I feel I'm being talked down, I brought it up here to see if I was being too stringent and robbing his character of a ability he should have.

[Guest rbezold]

Re: Speedster question

 

Your player is right. It is possible to accomplish the effect he wants. However, that does not relieve him of the responsibility to spend the points and buy it as a power.

 

He says he's a speedster? Based on what? High movement abilities? A rocket can do that. High Dex? Acrobat. High Speed? Anyone can have a high speed.

 

If he wants to do what no one else can do, he had better be prepared to pay the points for it. My advice would be some sort of low d6 hka with the advantages penetrating (double pen?) and autofire, and the limit "only for use on inanimate objects".

 

Beyond that, if you trust him, you might consider letting have a VPP limited to speed tricks and leave it to his imagination...

[nexus]

Re: Speedster question

 

Your player is right. It is possible to accomplish the effect he wants. However, that does not relieve him of the responsibility to spend the points and buy it as a power.

 

He says he's a speedster? Based on what? High movement abilities? A rocket can do that. High Dex? Acrobat. High Speed? Anyone can have a high speed.

 

If he wants to do what no one else can do, he had better be prepared to pay the points for it. My advice would be some sort of low d6 hka with the advantages penetrating (double pen?) and autofire, and the limit "only for use on inanimate objects".

 

Beyond that, if you trust him, you might consider letting have a VPP limited to speed tricks and leave it to his imagination...

 

High Movement and a few other speedster tricks. The character is a Speedster, that's not the problem. The "oh, I could tap on a block of solid adamantium for 20 seconds and reduce it rubble because I am speedster at no point cost" is what I have a problem with.

[JMHammer]

Re: Speedster question

 

I'm surprised this became a point of contention between the two of you. If your player wants to do damage to an object; and that object has defined defense and body values; and the player's character has defined attack values; then the basic mechanics of the Hero System should cover this situation completely. The only exception is if the GM wants to allow something to happen without recourse to the mechanics of the game by using his narrative exercise of power in order to move the story along or accomplish some other goal for the good of the game as a whole.

 

This is one of the strengths of the Hero System. There should be no arguments about whether you can or can't pound down that wall as you either have a power with enough dice of effect and advantages and whatnot to get the job done or you don't. A player arguing that his character should be able to do something means he needs to spend some character points to enable his character to do that thing. Or at the very least, have an appropriate Power Skill and make a die roll against that skill with an appropriate bonus or penalty to the roll to attempt the feat. But if the feat is to get the Double Armor Piercing Advantage or to add more dice of damage, that should only happen on a roll of 2 or less on 3d6 regardless of the base roll of the Power Skill.

 

Best wishes,

John H

[Zeropoint]

Re: Speedster question

 

Two problems with this:

 

First, as already pointed out, in Hero, you get what you pay for and you pay for what you get. If your particular special effect suggests that you should have a particular ability...BUY IT!

 

Second, while it IS possible to set up destructive vibrations in an object by exploiting the resonant frequency, there are two criteria that you have to meet. Obviously, you have to find the right frequency for your tapping, or sound, or whatever. If you're even a little off, it won't work.

 

Also, you still have to supply energy faster than the object is dissipating it. As the vibration from a single tap spreads out through the object, some of the vibrational energy will be converted to heat via molecular-level friction. How much energy is lost this way will of course vary with the material: hard steel is very elastic, and won't absorb much energy, while wood (for instance) would. The vibrating object will also radiate energy as sound, if in an atmosphere.

 

Well, as much as I enjoy waxing pedantic about physics, this isn't really the place for it, and I'm too tired to do it justice anyway.

 

Anyway, game balance overrides physics. If the player wanted to do this ONCE, as a power stunt, maybe. If he wants a reliable attack, he pays for it.

 

Zeropoint

[Hypnotoad, the]

Re: Speedster question

 

Anyway, game balance overrides physics. If the player wanted to do this ONCE, as a power stunt, maybe. If he wants a reliable attack, he pays for it.

 

He's got the general point down pat, IMHO. He wants a power he didn't pay for--an unbalancing power at that. He gets it once as a power stunt, and if he wants it again, he pays for it IN FULL.

 

I don't care what physics says.

[KA.]

Re: Speedster question

 

Nexus,

I pretty much agree with the other posters. The character can absolutely do what the player said . . .

 

right after he buys it and puts in on his character sheet.

 

I sometimes use Tunneling for this type of thing, but it may not be the best way.

Some sort of Penetrating, HKA, Only vs. Inanimate Objects would work too.

He could just keep doing 1 BODY until the object fell apart. The repeated attacks would be "setting up the vibrations".

 

But, the most important part is, in Hero, just because you define yourself as "Speedster" you do not get to do everything you have read in a Comic Book, or a book about Tesla for that matter.

 

You can't catch bullets like the Flash, unless you buy Missle Deflection.

You can't just vibrate through walls, you have to buy "Desolidification" or "Tunneling".

You can't just run on water, you have to buy "Flight must be in contact with a surface."

 

Otherwise, every Brick would be squeezing out diamonds.

 

Not to mention what a really powerful Shrinker could do . . .

"Hmmm. Need to take out Dr. Destroyer's Island. Think I'll shrink down and do some Fusion."

 

KA.

[AngryBug]

Re: Speedster question

 

If the player wanted to do this ONCE' date=' as a power stunt, maybe. If he wants a reliable attack, he pays for it.[/quote']

"Maybe" is right. We're talking about a 20 Hardened Defense wall, beyond the character's ability to even scratch with his most powerful attack.

 

If it was a very high-powered campaign, and the character was an extremely skilled Speedster, you might allow it. "Once, maybe". If he had a "Speedster Tricks" powers skill. Just saying "I'm a Speedster" isn't enough, any more than saying "I'm a Brick" lets you squeeze coal into diamonds.

 

I like the idea of using a Power Skill as a way of buying new powers "on credit", ie. using the skill to create an effect to which you will have to apply some XP to make permanent. This can reflect a versatile character who has abilities the player hasn't thought of or can't afford at creation.

 

This character didn't have a VPP or even a Power Skill to apply to this stunt, so its a flat-out "no freaking way". The player has a great imagination, though- maybe he should invest some XP in a Power Skill, eh?

[levi]

Re: Speedster question

 

I could see him using the Power Skill for this Speed Trick, but only if the GM allows it. You can't think of everything when you are making a character and that's what the Power Skill is for.

 

If he wanted to buy it for his character, he could buy it for very little as...

HKA 1 point, NND (Force Field; +1), Does BODY (+1) (15 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; -2), Limited Power (Only v. Inanimate Objects; -1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2) 15 Active Points 6 Real Points 5 END.

 

The wall in the example would require 20 PHA to bring down, but it would be possible.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speedster question

 

I'm not sure this will add anything, but the differentiation between your view and your player's, IMO, is this:

 

He argues that this is POSSIBLE under Supers Physics. I agree.

 

He also argues that, because it is possible, his character can do this. I disagree.

 

According to quantum physics, it is possible for two physical objects to pass through one another without either being harmed (eg. a bowling ball can pass through a wall). The space between molecules just has to line up right. However, the odds against it ocurring are so low that it's statisticaly impossible.

 

I would let a character buy a suite of desolidification powers based on his "quantum powers". But just having some powers with a "quantum" SFX does not mean he gets to become desolid (or make other things desolid) for free. He needs to buy the power, buy a VPP for quantum power tricks or buy the powerr skil, in descending order of both:

 

- Utility: the power, absent limitations, can be used any time; the VPP will likely require a skill roll at least to change the power; power skill will require a skill roll, and maybe some other disadvantages;

 

- GM Scrutiny: the power is clearly defined, and I won't restrict it. The VP and Power Skill might be restricted (eg. "Questonite is indestructible. It is triple hardened. As such, your VPP/Power Skill cannot let you override more than two levels of Hardened, because I rule you can't destroy the indestructible with your power concept")

 

The same logic applies to our Speedster. You don't get the ability bvecause comic book characters with a similar power suite have the ability. You buy the power suite because you want to simulate the comic book character.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Speedster question

 

Whether or not physics allows him to do this or not is beside the point. The point is, you've already said no. If you, the GM, decide he needs to pay for it before he accomplishes it, then the issue has been decided.

[OddHat]

Re: Speedster question

 

Just a ditto to what others have posted. He pays for it one way or another, or it doesn't work.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Speedster question

 

Your player is also ignoring another significant factor in his attempt to "vibrate it to bits": He first needs to find the resonant frequency of said object, which is going to be unique for every item. Nikola Tesla's vibration gadgets had to be "tuned" to the resonant frequency, generally by trial and error, before it started to work as described. Simply tapping something at a random frequency is not going to work, he needs to find the exact resonant frequency. (Since I read a biography of Tesla in June, I'm fairly up on this.) Tesla, an undoubted genius, still did it by trial and error. How even a speedster would do that in the midst of combat I don't know, but I think it's safe to assume that until he's bought it he hasn't mastered the technique.

 

If he has actually bought "Speedster Tricks" as a Power Skill, then letting him do this at a lower power might work if he makes his Skill roll. Character points do not represent "Powers I've Bought," they represent the character learning how to do certain things with his powers. That's not the same thing. Points are nought but a game mechanics method of bookkeeping; no character says "Hey Superman, how many points did that Invulnerability cost you?"

 

The other posters have it right: Pay for it, or it doesn't work. No tickee, no shirtee.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Speedster question

 

Next verse, same as the last couple: physically possible, yes. No slot for it, no power skill?? You ain't doing it.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Speedster question

 

LOL! You gotta like someone who says, essentially, "My character is a speedster, so he should just be able to do all the things comic book speedsters do"... without purchasing any of the abilities to let him do those things.

 

If he played an alien character, would he demand that he get all of the powers of Superman or the Martian Manhunter for free?

 

Anyhow, pretty much like the others here have said - if you didn't pay for it, you don't have it and you can't do it, save perhaps as a one-time stunt when dramatically appropriate if you burn all your END and make your Powers Skill roll.

 

What's that? No Powers skill? You really decided you would rather have more HTH CSLs?

 

Tough luck then, dude.

[MitchellS]

Re: Speedster question

 

I would allow it. As Levi point out above it is only a 15 active point power. That's well within the guidelines of a Power Skill roll - assuming the character has a Speedster Tricks skill roll. If the character wants to take the 20 phases to do it then let him. It's part of being heroic, in my opinion.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Speedster question

 

Not to mention that it wouldn't be expensive at all to buy it as a slot in his Speedster Tricks multipower. I mean, if you aren't willing to burn 2-3 XP for a useful trick. . .

 

Or did he not have a Multipower, either??

[Kristopher]

Re: Speedster question

 

It's a pay for play system. No pay, no power. No CP spent, no power/skill/whatever.

 

And the "________ Tricks" skills make me nervous. It's like opening a Pandora's box, even with otherwise good players. "What do you mean, I can't keep using this new Speedster Trick all the time. You let me do it last week without actually having the power, why not now?"

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Speedster question

 

It's a pay for play system. No pay, no power. No CP spent, no power/skill/whatever.

 

And the "________ Tricks" skills make me nervous. It's like opening a Pandora's box, even with otherwise good players. "What do you mean, I can't keep using this new Speedster Trick all the time. You let me do it last week without actually having the power, why not now?"

 

I generally only allow characters to use the power for really unusual actions which make sense for the character to do, but which aren't anywhere near as useful as things they'd need to buy outright as powers. Things like allowing a brick to write something in a concrete wall using his fingertips without causing large chunks of concrete to fall out of the wall or a flame-using energy blaster to light other people's cigarettes without taking off their eyebrows.

 

Power Skill is also the default skill for Variable Point Power Pools in the GGU.

[Hermit]

Re: Speedster question

 

Does the Character have Science skills like Physics or metalurgy? I might allow that to substitute for a power skill roll in a case like this, but even then it would be chancey. I'd probably ask for a luck/unluck roll as well. Hey, three 6s on that, you might accidentally hit it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Speedster question

 

It's a pay for play system. No pay, no power. No CP spent, no power/skill/whatever.

 

And the "________ Tricks" skills make me nervous. It's like opening a Pandora's box, even with otherwise good players. "What do you mean, I can't keep using this new Speedster Trick all the time. You let me do it last week without actually having the power, why not now?"

I don't believe Champions is a point-based game. I believe it's a game that uses points. Far too many gamers get too caught up in the points aspect of the game and forget about special effects and versatility.

 

The Human Torch had "Flame Control" in the Marvel Game and players were just able to come up with which ever suitable powers to fit within that effect scheme as they willed. There are just too many thing a character can do which do not require point-usage. That's the beauty of the Power Skill. It allows for free-thinking ideas without the need to justify everything. Free-thinking is the one major advantage M&M has over Hero. Creative use of Power Skills reverses that advantage.

 

Is being able to vibrate a bank vault door open in a minute that big of a deal? Does it really change the course of the game if a player can do that without spending 1 point in a Multipower? The character pays more to offset the negative modifiers for the roll than he would in a Multipower. I believe players should be commended for thinking outside of the box and coming up with interesting aspects to their character. Our group loves the Power Skill and stunts it allows. It's added a lot of versatility to characters.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Speedster question

 

Is being able to vibrate a bank vault door open in a minute that big of a deal? Does it really change the course of the game if a player can do that without spending 1 point in a Multipower? The character pays more to offset the negative modifiers for the roll than he would in a Multipower. I believe players should be commended for thinking outside of the box and coming up with interesting aspects to their character. Our group loves the Power Skill and stunts it allows. It's added a lot of versatility to characters.

You make some good points here' date=' Oh Hairy Primate. Provided the character is using this "power skill" to cleverly escape a deathtrap or some other plot device, I'd say allow it. But if he thinks he's going to destroy a VIPER tank or vibrate Dr. Destroyer's armor off in combat he's probably going to fatally mistaken. I'd make any such use, if not bought with character points, take several [u']minutes[/u]. In other words, it's not a combat ability. I think that would prevent abuse reasonably well.

 

My general view is that if a character in question has not even purchased the requisite Power Skill, he's probably not skillful enough with his powers to do this. He may know how it should work in theory; he just doesn't know what resonant frequency to actually use.

 

I too believe players should be commended for thinking outside of the box and coming up with interesting aspects to their character. But the correllary to that is that the players won't try to abuse such permissiveness. I'd allow such a thing with my current gaming group without hesitation. With some of the others I've played with over the years? No way.

[nexus]

Re: Speedster question

 

The character doesn't have any science skills or power skill. He does have a small multipower of speed tricks.

 

I dunno though, am I still hesistant to hand out, because o sfx a power that amounts to: Give me a minute or so and I can utterly destroy anything in the universe that doesn't have a forcefield. Just seems to be a little much for just a Power Skill roll. How much Body does the Earth have again?

[levi]

Re: Speedster question

 

The character doesn't have any science skills or power skill. He does have a small multipower of speed tricks.

 

I dunno though, am I still hesistant to hand out, because o sfx a power that amounts to: Give me a minute or so and I can utterly destroy anything in the universe that doesn't have a forcefield. Just seems to be a little much for just a Power Skill roll. How much Body does the Earth have again?

 

I couldn't agree more and this is one of those times as a GM where you just have to be firm about saying NO. Discuss it with the player after the game, I'm sure je'll understand that this is a game and as such all players (GM included) are supposed to have fun. This is also "dramatic reality" and as such, nothing is more important than the story. Pay him back by setting up an obstacle that only his speedster can get them past so he doesn't feel picked on.

[Badger]

Re: Speedster question

 

Pretty simple to me, if he wants it he buys it. Period. End of story.