The New Circle

[zornwil]

Re: The New Circle

 

It's a bored dimensional conqueror who moonlights as a superhero in this dimension to pass the time. Half the points are for perks which only come in to play in his own dimension. He has a set of shtick powers in a MP, a massive VPP which is much harder to use outside of his home dimension, and a giant adamantite colossus that he "pilots" inside(it looks like a spartan warrior clad in Hellenized plate)--his "Machina". His weaknesses, aside from susceptibility to boredom, are that he was abused as a child deity, and tends to collapse when physically assaulted by any powerful male foe; that almost all of his active powers require him to gesture with his hands and fingers, and thus a simple entangle could disable him; and that his machina is too huge to be useful in many situations, requiring him to do without its formidable protection.

I've gone through two writeups already, and was working on the "final" version when my newer PC crashed

Sorry to hear about the crash, that sucks.

 

As to the character, sounds neat, I like the thing about him being prone to collapse when physically assaulted by a male foe, that could also really surprise and confound some PCs!

[Chuckg]

Re: The New Circle

 

OTOH, it sound a bit cruel for a four-color villain -- he's having a nervous collapse because you're triggering flashbacks of child abuse? Whatever happened to just having flashbacks of being buried alive?

[Kristopher]

Re: The New Circle

 

I noticed that Black Rose's text mentions Kung Fu, but the character sheet doesn't have any MA listed, just a block of placeholders.

 

Anyway, I'l give both Black Lion and Black Rose a closer look when I get home tonight, but I like what I've seen so far.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: The New Circle

 

I noticed that Black Rose's text mentions Kung Fu' date=' but the character sheet doesn't have any MA listed, just a block of placeholders.[/quote']

 

A character doesn't have to have actual Martial Arts maneuvers to be a martial artist. My most skilled martial artist PC doesn't have any extra maneuvers at all, just a good Dex and a fair number of levels. Granted, he's the exception.

[Kristopher]

Re: The New Circle

 

A character doesn't have to have actual Martial Arts maneuvers to be a martial artist. My most skilled martial artist PC doesn't have any extra maneuvers at all, just a good Dex and a fair number of levels. Granted, he's the exception.

 

Looking at her character sheet again, I can see where Black Rose's physical stats would be a decent representation of an all-around but non-superhuman martial arts ability, if a few more points of STR were added. The other thing that sets MA apart, IMO, is the non-CV, non-Damage aspects of some of the maneuvers.

[Lightray]

OTOH' date=' it sound a bit cruel for a four-color villain -- he's having a nervous collapse because you're triggering flashbacks of child abuse? Whatever happened to just having flashbacks of being buried alive? [/quote']

Well, Mordru did end up having some LSH storylines wherein he was (emotionally) abusing his wife, the White Witch. Granted, it was in the "darker" 5 Years After period -- more "4 color with a lot of black" -- but it was completely in character.

[zornwil]

Re: The New Circle

 

A character doesn't have to have actual Martial Arts maneuvers to be a martial artist. My most skilled martial artist PC doesn't have any extra maneuvers at all' date=' just a good Dex and a fair number of levels. Granted, he's the exception.[/quote']

This is neither a criticism of the game nor how people do it, as in both cases I don't have a good suggestion or alternative but...

 

...the fudginess of how Martial Arts gets handled really bothers me! As someone pointed out, it's just as easy to buy some CSLs and be just as martial arts efficient without maneuvers, and similarly the maneuvers, while imparting flavor, get kind of generic themselves. Also, it's annoying that a big brick with 80 STR (just as an example) can just as easily be a martial artist as anyone else, it just seems not quite right.

 

I don't know why it bugs me, it just does. I don't even know much about martial arts or play in martial arts genres. But this sort of issue is why I still hearken back to Champions of old and base the cost of martial arts maneuvers on STR.

 

Anyway, that's quite a tangent and it's just a tiny vent, as stated, for the core rules and how people execute concepts, I really don't know a better way, so I'm really not saying HERO is screwed up, or to the extent I am I'm saying it as one of those "yeah but I'm no better," things.

 

Anyway again, to get back on topic, do you all tend to have, particularly in superhero games, a lot of cross-over between mystics and martial artists? I've noted a good bit of that, and I've had some of those myself as noted elsewhere.

 

Also, while there are mystic energy blasters and mystic martial artists, doesn't it seem there's not much overlap between mystics and supers whose chief physical ability is shape-changing, and not many mystic bricks? What do you think/know in your games about how mystic archetypes overlaps with other archetypes?

 

Is there even a mystic archetype, aside from specifically mages?

[nexus]

Re: The New Circle

 

[Fishing for comments]

 

Any opinions on Sin or the Astaroth guys?

 

[/Fishing for comments]

[zornwil]

Re: The New Circle

 

[Fishing for comments]

 

Any opinions on Sin or the Astaroth guys?

 

[/Fishing for comments]

Sorry not really, per se, I think they're both decent and don't have much to add. Upon rereading Sin, though, I think I will incorporate some elements into my rewrite of M&M's Beholder, whom I'm using in my campaign now, so thanks!

[Lightray]

Is there even a mystic archetype' date=' aside from specifically mages?[/quote']

One of the things that I think Champions (5e) did a disservice was in it's list of archetypes.

 

Brick, Energy Projector, Mentalist, Metamorph -- these are all descriptive of a character's powers.

 

Mystic and Super-Patriot are descriptive of a character's origins.

 

Yet we talk about them as though they're all equally archetypes. I'd have preferred if the organization was more along the lines of "Mystic Brick" (e.g., Solomon Grundy) or "Super-Patriot Weapons Master" (e.g., Captain America).

 

I don't even think supermage-type Mystics are a good power-descriptive archetype. There's too many ways to build one (VPP, Multipower, EC, etc.) and the list of powers to choose from is nigh endless. If I'm making a Martial Artist I know I'll be buying DEX, and STR for a Brick, and EGO for a Mentalist. That's how those characters are made effective. For a supermage? INT and EGO, probably, but it's going to depend on how you build those powers.

[zornwil]

Re: The New Circle

 

One of the things that I think Champions (5e) did a disservice was in it's list of archetypes.

 

Brick, Energy Projector, Mentalist, Metamorph -- these are all descriptive of a character's powers.

 

Mystic and Super-Patriot are descriptive of a character's origins.

 

Yet we talk about them as though they're all equally archetypes. I'd have preferred if the organization was more along the lines of "Mystic Brick" (e.g., Solomon Grundy) or "Super-Patriot Weapons Master" (e.g., Captain America).

 

I don't even think supermage-type Mystics are a good power-descriptive archetype. There's too many ways to build one (VPP, Multipower, EC, etc.) and the list of powers to choose from is nigh endless. If I'm making a Martial Artist I know I'll be buying DEX, and STR for a Brick, and EGO for a Mentalist. That's how those characters are made effective. For a supermage? INT and EGO, probably, but it's going to depend on how you build those powers.

Wow, I had totally forgotten Solomon Grundy had a mystic basis.

 

Although I think you raise a good point, one that should have been addressed by better descriptions/purposes perhaps in 5th ed., I think that they were trying to respond to the fact that so many players are going to say precisely, "I want a metamorph!" (Or "I want Mystique!" if more specific) As such, I think they had to do something like this.

 

Anyway, re mystic, that's true, it's really a matter of origin, unless we're talking about some specific mage types (which then break down into things like "Modern Gritty Urban Mage" meaning Constantine or Dresden, and so on and so on).

[Kristopher]

Re: The New Circle

 

Maybe it's to be expected from a thread of mystic characters, but I've noticed a preponderance of curses, infernal pacts, and other dark origins, even for heroes.

 

Sin (the character) has a lot of potential.

[Agent X]

Re: The New Circle

 

Maybe it's to be expected from a thread of mystic characters, but I've noticed a preponderance of curses, infernal pacts, and other dark origins, even for heroes.

 

Sin (the character) has a lot of potential.

Good point. I'll work on a mystic with a sunnier disposition.

[Chuckg]

Re: The New Circle

 

*facepalm*

 

Mystic? Sunny disposition? I've had one on this board all along!

 

Starguard, of course.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=414259#post414259

 

Hope this helps.

 

Note; The background/history are for the campaign she's currently in, which is in progress. Portability can be achieved simply by dialing her life story back to where it started in-play, which was 'one week after getting her powers, not knowing a damn thing about who or what she is, and working in a diner.'

 

She is not intended as an antagonist, but as something for the PCs to deal with -- a tremendously powerful innocent who needs mentoring, guidance, and a figuring out of "Why the hell *did* Fate have this happen right now, anyway? What the heck is coming up on the mystic horizon that such as this is required to be?"

[Lightray]

Mystic? Sunny disposition? I've had one on this board all along!

 

Starguard, of course.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=414259#post414259

While her disposition may be sunny, her origin is still rather dark. It would be interesting to see if it's possible to make an angst-free mystic origin that leaves you with any hooks to hang plots from.

 

BTW, I noticed Starguard has Invisibility to Mental Group -- how do you find that working in play? I've got an NPC with that, and have been considering allowing PC mentalists to make Mental Group PER rolls (with Telepathy or some other pseudo-Sense mental power) to "find" the character's DECV. Otherwise, it just feels a bit too much cheese to pull out of a minor Invisibility power.

[Chuckg]

Re: The New Circle

 

Actually, we handle it the same way as if an Invisible character is perceived with another targeting sense that they're /not/ Invisible to -- i.e., attack at your full CV.

 

The effect of Mental Invisibility is to render the character in question proof vs. Mind Scan, Detects based on the Mental Sense Group, and Telepathy. She can't be mind-read, and neither can she be located psionically. Her mind is entirely unfathomable. But it's not invulnerable.

 

If the attacking mentalist can perceive her with any /other/ Targeting Sense he possesses -- such as, oh, Normal Sight -- he can attack her normal ECV with any Mental Power besides Telepathy (and special effects based on reading the information contained in her head) -- such as Ego Attack, Mind Control, etc, etc. She hasn't learned to shield herself from those yet (read: she hasn't bought Mental Defense).

 

The in-game purpose of putting it there was so that a) the mystery of her amnesia and her true nature could not be solved simply by mind-probing her and/or applying some psychic surgery(*) and so that the Dragon (see Mystic World) would be utterly unable to access her head... she's at least part human, so that gives him an "in", and we thought that allowing the personification of all evil in the human soul to have access to the mind of an archangel would be a really bad thing.

 

As for the darkness of the origin -- actually, depending on how you work it, it can be fairly bright. After all, the forces of evil not only /lost/, but they created their own worst enemy...

 

... maybe that was intended all along.

 

Plus, of course, it can be easily changed to anything else that would take a nice young girl from British Canada and imbue her with the essence of an archangel, with a minor power overload accidentally traumatizing her neurons a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

(*) While she has no Power Defense vs. Mental Transforms, it's a reasonable adjudication of special effect to say that if the psychic can't see what's wrong with her head, he can't fix the broken connections in her memory. It'd be like trying to do an appendectomy on the Invisible Man.

[zornwil]

Re: The New Circle

 

Good point. I'll work on a mystic with a sunnier disposition.

In the Books of Magic, I liked Rose, Dr. Occult's other personality.

 

PS - and Zatanna in many versions is quite sunny without being a bimbo

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: The New Circle

 

...the fudginess of how Martial Arts gets handled really bothers me!

 

You are entitled to be bothered, of course (I am bothered by all sorts of silly things). However, consider this: martials arts is just a special effect, like energy control or magic. You can have a character whose special effect is "Energy Control" without buying the power "Energy Blast", and vice versa. The labels on the various game mechanics are just there for conveneince: I do not consider them to actually mean anything in-game. That's the way I look at it, at least.

 

What do you think/know in your games about how mystic archetypes overlaps with other archetypes? Is there even a mystic archetype' date=' aside from specifically mages?[/quote']

 

There are four main mystical archetypes, I think:

 

• the magician, who tosses fireballs and summons demons, and generally redirects energy from place to place
  
• the mystic, who is so in tune with the universe and herself that she can do things that would otherwise be impossible
  
• the magical creature, which simply is magical or supernatural
  
• the person who uses magical stuff, but isn't a magician herself
  

 

That's pretty much how I'd slice it up, anyway.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The New Circle

 

OTOH' date=' it sound a bit cruel for a four-color villain -- he's having a nervous collapse because you're triggering flashbacks of child abuse? Whatever happened to just having flashbacks of being buried alive? [/quote']

 

(nigh-omnipotent being curled up in fetal position, shivering and crying)

 

"Daddy, no! I'll be good, I promise!"

 

(team brick looks around sheepishly)

 

Team leader: I told you not to actually hit him!

 

Team Brick: but he was going to turn us all into Smurfs!

[zornwil]

Re: The New Circle

 

You are entitled to be bothered' date=' of course (I am bothered by all sorts of silly things). However, consider this: martials arts is just a special effect, like energy control or magic. You can have a character whose special effect is "Energy Control" without buying the power "Energy Blast", and vice versa. The labels on the various game mechanics are just there for conveneince: I do not consider them to actually mean anything in-game. That's the way I look at it, at least.[/quote']

 

BUT THAT"S JUST NOT RIGHT!

 

(turns all pouty and adds...) And you're a doo-doo head!

 

 

Yeah, it's a good point, and I certainly acknowledge it. And to your point, quite another argument for no core game changes.

 

I am still fond of pricing Martial Arts based on STR, since it does mean that to have access to the more specialized SFX maneuvers, it's more costly if you're basically a brick, but again that's more my campaign/my "style". I do that as every 5 points of MA maneuvers = a +1/4 advantage to STR. It's a little weird, but basically it translates to a 10 STR gets very cheap maneuvers, while a 20 STR pays the base price, and >20 is where you start to rack up costs.

 

However, I have only used it for supers/Champions, for my modern heroic level game, I scrapped it for simplicity and balance.

 

There are four main mystical archetypes, I think:

 

• the magician, who tosses fireballs and summons demons, and generally redirects energy from place to place
  
• the mystic, who is so in tune with the universe and herself that she can do things that would otherwise be impossible
  
• the magical creature, which simply is magical or supernatural
  
• the person who uses magical stuff, but isn't a magician herself
  

 

That's pretty much how I'd slice it up, anyway.

 

Seems like a good typology. To follow it through (recognizing no character necessarily just fits a single category perfectly):

 

Spectre - the magical creature

John Constantine - the magician (more or less)

Phantom Stranger - the mystic

(boy, my DC is showing...)

Sandman (Gaiman) - the magical creature (god-scale, but same idea)

Willow (of Buffy) - the magician

Dr. Fate - the magician

Dr. Strange - the magician

Cloak - the magical creature? little harder to classify energy projectionists who are mystical-based and mystically-powered, but I think Cloak anyway falls into more of a creature type, a mystic elemental

Ragman - hmm, I guess more of a magical creature, similar to Cloak

Tim Hunter (and Harry Potter) - the magician

 

Of my own game, I can see:

China Left - person who uses magical stuff

Nexus (PC) - the magician

Kietersling - the magician

Death - the magical creature

 

I know nobody knows my characters, just testing out this typology. Yeah, I think this works pretty well.

[Lightray]

Team Brick: but he was going to turn us all into Smurfs!

Team martial artist Australian ninja: *gasp* That fiend!

[zornwil]

Re: The New Circle

 

(nigh-omnipotent being curled up in fetal position, shivering and crying)

 

"Daddy, no! I'll be good, I promise!"

 

(team brick looks around sheepishly)

 

Team leader: I told you not to actually hit him!

 

Team Brick: but he was going to turn us all into Smurfs!

I like it more from this angle:

 

Smart Guy: Team! Watch out, he's deadly, OH MY GOD, DIVE, DIVE!

 

Flying Girl: He almost hit me! I'll cast my death ray, my greatest power! Oh, no, no effect!

 

Weirdo Powered Thingamabob: My mystical dark cloaking will embrace him! DRATS! WATCH OUT LOSER SEEKER CLONE, YOU'RE TOO CLOSE!

 

Loser Seeker Clone: Uh...I hit him!

 

(nigh-omnipotent being curled up in fetal position, shivering and crying): "Daddy, no! I'll be good, I promise!"

 

Everyone stands staring, confused...players equally confused thinking this was the fight of their life...

 

(edited for better HERO appreciation, reminded by Lightray.. )

[Fireg0lem]

Re: The New Circle

 

There's also the problem of the random destination -- if the guy teleported is the one with the MegaMovement, he still has to spend time orienting himself and flying back... and remember, even as little as one minute means that the fight is on Turn 6 by the time he gets back there, and Knucklebones doesn't stick around that long.

 

If the PC bamfed away doesn't have MegaMovement, and the other MegaMovement PC has to go out and /fetch/ him back, that's even more time lost.

 

That's also why the remove-PC-from-the-fight powers (the big attacks, the EDM, and the Teleport) are all at the edges. There's only a 1/6 chance of any one attack leaving a PC with nothing to do for each hit - all the ones in the center range will leave the PC screwed over, but still fighting.

 

Also, it's nothing that your typical master villain can't do - an 18d6 EB or the like will nullify a PC just as efficiently, and this way at least it's fun, relatively speaking.

[Chuckg]

Re: The New Circle

 

> That's also why the remove-PC-from-the-fight powers (the big attacks,

> the EDM, and the Teleport) are all at the edges. There's only a 1/6 chance

> of any one attack leaving a PC with nothing to do for each hit - all the

> ones in the center range will leave the PC screwed over, but still fighting.

 

Zero out of six would, IMO, go better -- just megascale teleporting someone away from the fight is a clear-cut "blue bolt from the sky". It's like dropping an NND Entangle on a group(*) -- do not pass go, do not collect $200, go directly to 'waiting to respawn... and waiting, and waiting, and waiting'.

 

In short, to many players, it would *feel* like an outright hose job -- and when players start /feeling/ hosed, /even if that's not the DM's intent/... well, better to just not go there in the first place.

 

[snip]

> Also, it's nothing that your typical master villain can't do - an 18d6 EB or

> the like will nullify a PC just as efficiently, and this way at least it's fun,

> relatively speaking.

 

To use the 'respawn' example above -- the average 350-point PC, having eaten an 18d6 EB, will be back on his feet inside of 3 phases... 1-2 Recoveries, and they should be at positive STUN again. If they're a 350-point brick, they're not even down, just (maybe) CON Stunned. Meanwhile, their teammates have presumably moved to cover them, to prevent finisher shots... being Stunned or Knocked Out is not a fight-ender, but being hit again while Stunned or KO'ed is.

 

OTOH, Mega-Teleporting someone away, unless they just happen to have Mega-Teleport of their own, knocks them out of the ballpark not just for a few Segments, but for a few /minutes/... or hours... or maybe even days, if they landed in the middle of the Serengeti or somewhere.

 

So no, the two cases are not parallel.

 

 

 

(*) Granted, I /have/ done this once, but not to beat them up -- it was a plot point that started an adventure. And it was Captain Chronos who did it.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: The New Circle

 

> Also, it's nothing that your typical master villain can't do - an 18d6 EB or

> the like will nullify a PC just as efficiently, and this way at least it's fun,

> relatively speaking.

 

To use the 'respawn' example above -- the average 350-point PC, having eaten an 18d6 EB, will be back on his feet inside of 3 phases... 1-2 Recoveries, and they should be at positive STUN again. If they're a 350-point brick, they're not even down, just (maybe) CON Stunned. Meanwhile, their teammates have presumably moved to cover them, to prevent finisher shots... being Stunned or Knocked Out is not a fight-ender, but being hit again while Stunned or KO'ed is.

 

OTOH, Mega-Teleporting someone away, unless they just happen to have Mega-Teleport of their own, knocks them out of the ballpark not just for a few Segments, but for a few /minutes/... or hours... or maybe even days, if they landed in the middle of the Serengeti or somewhere.

 

So no, the two cases are not parallel.

 

First, if you are counting large attacks and the "Go To Hell" power seperately, it's only 1 in 18. Remember that the big energy blast, if it deviates enough from average, could also KO someone past the -10 mark. IMC, I'm probably leaving it as it is. However, if there was no way to retrieve people from Hells, I'd remove the Go to Hell power. BTW, the maximum teleport distance is 16 km - not far enough to put the PC away for longer than a scene, and they can likely tell where they are. Since it's a random destination, they could wind up as little as 1 km away - not outside the movement range of a superspeedster.

 

For anyone who likes Knucklebones, but is unhappy with the EDM and Teleport powers, here's some sample replacements.

 

3, Buried Alive: 10d6 Entangle, 5 Defense, Blocks Sight Group and Hearing Group - 0 Endurance Cost (+1/2); No Barriers (-1/4)

11, Living Ghost: Desolidification - Useable as Attack (+1), Ranged (+1/2), 0 Endurance Cost (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2; 2 Turns or appropriate KS/PS roll)

 

The entangle buries the character six feet underground. They can try to dig their way out, and their friends can help. It's assumed that asphyxiation won't come into play before they get free, here, although if this power hits a normal and nobody bothers to help them, they will eventually be assumed to die.

 

Living Ghost turns the character into a ghost, temporarily. They can still move around and use their powers, but they are transparent.

 

Both of these still take people out of the fight, but the entangle can be dug out of (and allies can help), and many supers can teleport or desolid back aboveground. Living Ghost is annoying, but lasts at most two turns (and the fix condition should be possessed by any magical-oriented party). Also, even if they're left desolid and don't have any way to generate an ARW attack, they can at least interact, maybe even put their incorpereality to good use.