Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

Hey Hugh,

 

I hadn't noticed that you're up there in Edmo-town. I was assuming that most of thee readership of the forums are American so it's pretty much all up from there, lol.

 

What can I possibly add?

 

You mentioned the problem of certain characters being held as sacred cows and' date=' somehow, that that's bad thing. I beg to differ. I think it's a good thing. Characters should be sacred cows. Killing them should be such a rarity as to become almost unthinkable. I think that, as readers, we invest in characters; hopes, dreams, aspirations. They're there as idealization and as heroic touchstones which tie us into the mythical. To allow their wholesale, or even reatil slaughter is incredibly cyncial and, I think, undercuts the entire premise of comics. That's one of the multitidinous flaws of the Authority, a complete failure to understand the fundamental premise of the genre. The death of a hero should be a monumentous, transformative event. It should have impact and consequence. Sadly, over the past 2 decades (especially given the influence of Image) it's become trivial. Now, it seems, if someone doesn't die it's somehow not an event...or even a story. And I think that's what's truly tragic. [/quote']

 

It's a balance, to be sure. I don't like the idea of "death of the week" any better than "heroes can never die".

 

Move too far one way, and some of the suspense is gone. Not all - we still get stressed over whether the hero will succeed - but when it's a beloved character's life on the line if Batman fails, we feel it more than when it's the Joker's next faceless victim.

 

Move too far the other and, well...don't get attached to the characters because they won't live out the year.

 

The same issue arises in RPG's. If death becomes an impossibility, some of the thrill is gone because some of the risk is gone. If it becomes commonplace, well, don't invest a lot of time in that character's backstory since chances are he'll be a statistic in a short time and you'll be rolling up another one.

[Vigil]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

I know what you mean, RPG-wise, Hugh.

 

I sued to play CofC all the time and for somenone who likes to get attached to his charcters it was truly a recipe for unhappiness. If our entire party wasn't dead or irrevocably insane at the end of any adventure than our GM somehow felt that he'd failed. Now since those are pretty simple things to accomplish as GM in even the most non-lethal RPGs just think of how unthinkably easy it is in CofC. After a while it became Character or charcaters of the week and we never succeeded in finsihing a game since none of the characters who began irt were alive or sane at the end of it and the others didn't have the full story. Somehow, the GM felt this to be satisfying and "true to the genre". Maybe, but it was a shitty way to spend a Friday night.

 

I feel the same way about the spate of deaths in comics of the last 20 years or so. Why bother investing in characters as a writer or reader if the next teams gonna come in and wipe it all away. best to do it yourself, first. I think that's exactly the thinking that's operative in Avengers Disassembled (or maybe BNB just thought it was such a clever title he'd come up with that he simply had to kill off the team to justify it...I've heard of more trivial reasons.) Both the Authority and X Factor (the Milligan one) do this all the time. And does anyone care? When they finally killed Supes for real around 10 years ago it actually made the front pages and got real coverage. Has anyone else? That's the difference between death in iconic or trivial characters. Unfortunately, in Superman, it was handled in just about the worst way possible and the return was worse. I guess to me, the death of a major character in comics should be such a pivotal event that it should only be approached when absolutely nothing else will satisfy the story. Unfortuntealy the industry seems to have so little integrity and the fans have become so bloodthirsty and ADHD that nothing else gets a rise. And the rise is less and less each time.

 

Vigil

[Kristopher]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

The Law of Diminishing Returns, Vigil.

 

 

As to the death of Spoiler, my objection was that it was a meaningless, gratuitous death, and a complete waste of an interesting character with a lot of potential.

 

And that was before I learned that she was killed in a fit of self-indulgence by a new creative team. Well, maybe "creative" is giving them too much credit.

 

Fucking morons. Asshats.

 

 

PS: I used to watch pro wrestling, but it seems it's nothing but cheap heat and gratuitous titilation now, expecially with McMahon running the only televised game in town.

[Vigil]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

Hey Kristopher,

 

I agree completely, esp. with your comments on McMahon's dog and pony show. I do a live internet based broadcast http://www.wrestletalkradio.com every Sunday night from 6 - 8 pm MST. Obviously, pro wrestling is the focus but I have to tell you I find it painful towatch even a few minutes a week of Vince's self indulgent drek, esp. knowing how much better a lot of the stuff on the indy circuit is then the stuff Vinnie is shovelling. That's why we try to focus on up and coming workers and legends since I really don't feel obliged to give Vince any more free PR. Check us out if you get the chance. We're also the only internet based show tto have live caller interactivity where you can call us toll free on the net and chat with us or ask questions of our guests. This week we have taleneted indy worker Synn on and Marty janetty will appear eoither this week or next, depending on his road schedule. We also have Dr. Tom Prtitchard and Kamala coming up soon. So check it out.

 

Now that I've plugged my show I have to agree with your diminshing return comment also. That's a lot more succinctly put then my ramblings..I guess I did way too many psychedelics in the 80's to remmeber my philosophy degree, lol. It is true, however, that with death being rank in comics these days, it's utterly trivialized it and leeched it of any meaning whatsoever. It seems that it now takes gruesome, disturing and very graphic deaths or death on a vast scale to even get a rise. I think both options suck.

 

Vigil

[egyptian]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

Ghost Rider-I think they kind of got off on the wrong tack with this guy. To me the soul of the character was that he was a guy possessed by a demon. Every night was a fight for control, one that he couldn't afford to lose. The bike, the hellfire, that's all secondary. The real battle is going on inside.

 

The New Gods-I guess nobody but Jack Kirby could dream big enough to make these characters work. These are characters that should be handled like a Wagnerian opera, not like conventional heroes. The end will come in Armaghetto...

 

The Marvel Family-You know, it must kind of bug Superman to know that there's someone out there who has all of his powers only better and no weaknesses. And a couple friends who also have all of his powers only better with no weaknesses. And they're all really likable.

 

Franklin Richards-You know, for 30-some odd years they teased that he was going to grow up and become the most powerful being out there, someone of such incalculable might that even Galactus was concerned about him. So why not show him grow up?

 

Doctor Fate-His helmet was once a god. Without it he is merely powerful, but with it he is nearly invincible. Perhaps only the Spectre can challenge his magic. But, if he dons the helmet he loses himself within Nabu. What kind of person would risk their soul every day just to help other people?

 

Too late at night to think of any others

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

I used to play CofC all the time and for somenone who likes to get attached to his charcters it was truly a recipe for unhappiness.

 

I remember god old CoC! I recall a scenario which intro'd by stating it was intended for experienced characters, then went on to define that as a group consisting of no more than 50% new characters

 

In defense of CoC, if characters had a high survival rate, it wouldn't be true to the genre. Plus, the character generation system was quick. I'd hate to play a Hero game where the mortality rate was that high!

 

Actually, I recall in high school (more years back than I care to remember) a friend summarizing the three games we regularly played.

 

Champions: If you play half decent, your characters will probably succeed and they will almost certainly survive.

 

D&D: If you play well, your characters will probably succeed. If you play half decent, they will probably survive.

 

Call of Cthulhu: If you play exceptionaly well, make noerrors, cover off all possible research and double-check everything three times, your characters have a shot at survival.

 

As I recall, he was always the guy saying "Let's do a little more research in the library".

[starblaze]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

Ah, CofC. The only game where if you survive long enough you are eventually rewarded with insanity!

 

But in reality I grew to like the feel of Call of Cthulu. The big mistake with the game is that the Keepers are often to willing to toss out the big powerful sanity draining monsters like Cthulu and Nylarthotep. And the combat system is really deadly.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

Ah, CofC. The only game where if you survive long enough you are eventually rewarded with insanity!

 

But in reality I grew to like the feel of Call of Cthulu. The big mistake with the game is that the Keepers are often to willing to toss out the big powerful sanity draining monsters like Cthulu and Nylarthotep. And the combat system is really deadly.

 

The problem is that, if characters are able to learn the secrets of the universe, and defeat the Elder Gods consistently, the game falls out of its genre. It needs to be defeatist if it's going to work. And that's contrary to GamerThink!

 

As for combat, I used to describe the opposition as "Weak opponents only have a couple of stats in excess of human maximums". I liked the Cthulhu stats - stats in the w/u, but the narrative discusses how many he can get at a time, not how mcuh damage he'll do.

[Vigil]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

Our eventual solution to the CofC dilema was to convert the entire thing to Champions or, more properly, Jusitce Inc. We created analogues of the insanity inducing presence of Cthulhoid types and tried to recreate the feel as best we could and went from there. It was a hybrid, to be sure, but it was hybrid which worked and which was quite playable. The villains were still significantly more powerful but characters still had a chance and could buy skills like resistance and even limited forms of power defense (makes more sense than Ego Defense given the basis of the Cthulhoid types powers) to keep from going wing ding every time a zombie walks in. I liked the original CofC as a concept. As an actual game, however, I think it may have been abit too true to its sources.

[Kristopher]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

I said this before about comics, but it applies here too. Sometimes, what works in the source material does not make for a good game.

 

I've never bothered to play CofC because of the hardwired hopelessness. The real world has enough hopelessness, I don't need it in my hobbies. There's also the issue of wondering why I'd put any real work into a player character that I know is going to die, and probably soon. CofC shares this flaw with Paranoia.

[Moody Loner]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

Smilar experience with CoC here. If I need hopelessness and futility, I'll write "D20 Six O'Clock News".

 

Or sit in the basement and beat myself over the head with a two-by-four.

 

Both of which were more fun than the "Watch me create interesting, complex NPC madmen for the GM" that was my CoC experience.

 

And I won't even start about my wife's game-winning double critical hit getting retconned because actually managing to be competent would derail the campaign, because that was bad GMing.

[Lightray]

Like most games, CoC sucks if it's not run well, rules notwithstanding.

 

I've still fond memories of one game where a couple investigators went mad as loons only from some byakee -- and spent the rest of the game session occasionally hooting at us from the table they were playing cards at. Or sneaking up to our table and just staring at us.

 

The rest of us found the cave wherein was the problem, and one by one gave in to some temptation and got turned into ghouls. They all slunk under the table and gibbered at each other.

 

By the time I died 20 minutes later-- eaten alive by my "colleagues" -- the GM and I were alone at the table, with hands occasionally coming up from below to paw at our dice or character sheets. Actually, I think one of the GM's NPC character sheets got eaten (leading to the same fate for my faithful sidekick).

 

Good times.

[Kristopher]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

Different tastes, I guess.

[Vigil]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

To me, CofC is one of those games where the concept, the theory far outshines the reality. I remeber 20+ years back thinking, "wow, it would be cool to play an occult investigator who uses nothing but his knowledge of "the enemy" to squeak out of the closest calls. " or somesuch.

 

Unfortunately, the calls weren't close. They were delivered right to my door promptly and on time by Migo Express and the package always included a heapin' helpin' of insanity and death.

 

I'm not really sure how CofC could even be fun for a GM considering how dispiriting the whole thing is. It was only when we converted the system to JI that there was even any vague sense of balance. If you look at it, a lot of CofC PCs would be incompetent normals by Champs standards and just think of what fun a campaign built around those types would be. When Aunt May is your muscle, not your hostage, you're screwed.

 

Vigil

[Vigil]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

I guess this question could be a sub-question of this topic. Given that we've all played a lot of systems, I'm sure, which have had the most potential, which were the most frustrating ansd which were the most fun?

 

I recall enjoying the Awful Green Things from Outer Space quite a lot and Demon Lord and Titan absolutely ocked, whereas Illuminati NWO and Armageddon (I think it was called, essentially nuclear Risk set in the Mediterranean region) were true pigs that weren't never goin' be silk purses.

[Rapier]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

I guess this question could be a sub-question of this topic. Given that we've all played a lot of systems' date=' I'm sure, which have had the most potential, which were the most frustrating ansd which were the most fun?[/quote']

Believe it or not, I've not really played that many RPGs. I spent my youth mostly with AD&D (up through high school) and my adulthood (uni and beyond) with Hero.

 

In the middle there I played some:

 

- Dr Who (this had such potential, but I was too young. I don't recall much about the system other than we didn't really understand it, but the setting...CMON! Its DOCTOR WHO!)

- MSH (I have no idea which version or anythhing, but it was fun, just not really fond of the system itself)

- TMNT (ack, that was bad)

- SFB (too rules heavy)

- Toon (fun, but only really good as a 1 shot)

- Paranoia (HATED IT)

- Star Wars (was fun, but the GM was not so good so this died before it ever really got going...but the setting, of course, RoXXoReD!)

- ShadowRun (I really like ShadowRun, I would even considering running/playing that again for the CyberPunky stuff)

- CyberPunk (eh, wasn't so fond of the game)

- Jorune (only limped through 1 game)

- GURPS (couple games that ran concurrently with the Champions...and Champions pwned GURPS)

- RoleMaster (I did like RoleMaster, it was probably what actually triggered my out-and-out dislike (which had been only grumblings until this point) of AD&D)

- Vampire/Werewolf (I don't like LARP, the game system sucks (which is actually kind of a rule with LARP since you can't really run around with lots of books and dice) and there is a rather large majority IME of LARPers that are REALLY, REALLY creepy. When not actually LARPing WW, the game system just SUCKS)

 

And of course there was a whole bunch of board games, card games, war games and miniature games that we played too.

 

Thats about all I can think of. Hey, actually I guess I have played a number of RPGs!!

[Vigil]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

I remmebr playing and enjoyint the very first iteration of Dand D back in the mid 70's. Unfrtunately the experience was soon destroyed by a novice GM (weren't they all back the?) who thought the best thing in the world was to invent clever but inescapable death traps ("Isn't that brilliant?! There are dragons behind all the doors!" apparently the point was to demonstrate that rtue heroism is demonstrated in how you face certain death or soemsuch twaddle).

 

Be that as it may, after ward we moved on the Chivalry and Sorcery in HS. I recall that C&S had potential to be one of the greatest and most interesting RPGs ever, if only it didn't take itself so deathly seriously. They started with a great idea and quickly killed it by trying to be too "realistic" about their system (it's magick not magic seemed to be the philosophy). Somewhere around that same time we began experimenting with the Hero system. Ah, the wonder and the joy of one's first experience with Champions. After that we flirted with DCH only to find that the system was a really expensive date that wouldn't put out. Then there were tons of lesser systems and a period of playing lots of war games (most of which were pigs to one degree or another but Squad Leader was probably the worst) before ultimately gravitating back to Champions and JI.

 

Vigil

[assault]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

Like most games, CoC sucks if it's not run well, rules notwithstanding.

...

By the time I died 20 minutes later-- eaten alive by my "colleagues" -- the GM and I were alone at the table, with hands occasionally coming up from below to paw at our dice or character sheets. Actually, I think one of the GM's NPC character sheets got eaten (leading to the same fate for my faithful sidekick).

 

CoC is vulnerable to heavy handed GMing. With a lighter touch, it's fine.

 

It also makes a fine semi-LARP. Lightray's description indicates that.

 

My favourite CoC game was played in a rundown old farmhouse in the hills, on a foggy night. That was where we _played_ it. The setting in the _game_ was a rundown old mansion in the hills, on a foggy night...

 

None of us died or went insane.

 

The plot was broadly lifted from Robert E Howard's "Dig Me No Grave".

[st barbara]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

My vote would go to "The Global Guardians". Every time I see them they are either underpowered, have some members turn evil or get (temporarily) killed off. I think that they could make a great comic ! Do they have a token Yank by the way ?

[nexus]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

Call of Cthullu...

 

I've played it once or twice. I can see why some people might like it, but I didn't. Complete doom and insanity isn't really my idea of a good time.

 

Paranoia always felt different because you aren't supposed to take it seriously. Its a black comedy. The goal of the game is to see how long it takes you to go threw your clones, your "companions" clones and how spectacularly you can go out.

[robbneu]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

It's nice to see all the Alpha Flight love on here. All this time I thought I was one of the very few people who counted Alpha Flight as one of my favorites (who have spent there *entire* careers in the "superhero ghetto"). I can't say that I blame Byrne for any horrible slight against them, but writer after writer, they seem to exist solely for being tortured. Sometimes that made for some really great stories... other times you just felt like the team couldn't get a break, no matter what they did. Kind of like Daredevil in the 80s.

 

It's not hard to draw up a list of underused characters, though. Look at Iceman in the X-Men. I haven't read any of the X-Books in years, but most of the time, Bobby Drake exists only as scenary. I mentioned The Question in another thread. The Rachel Summer's version of Pheonix was a really neat idea that was drained of anything useful or interesting. I don't even know what she's doing or if she even exists any more. I also used to really like the Elementals, but they seem doomed to a glut of "mature only" sex issues and only being published every two years.

 

Robb

[Kristopher]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

This always draws an assortments of groans, giggles, and vague threats, but what the heck.

 

I've always thought that Domino had a lot more potential than the Marvel crew ever realized. I think she's been mistreated, misused, and underused.

 

And there's always something to be said for a character who keeps putting holes in Deadpool.

[csyphrett]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

I guess the Blue Beetle should go on the list, but wait he's dead.

CES

[Eyendasky80]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

I guess the Blue Beetle should go on the list, but wait he's dead.

CES

 

He is on the list, does that qualify as Irony?

[csyphrett]

Re: Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

 

I missed his addition, so I guess it qualifies as irony and a bit of bitterness.

CES