Anyone know the stats of the average Cop?

[Col. Orange]

Converting Cyberpunk chars to HERO, need a baseline. Ta.

[JmOz]

I beleive there is a cop in both FRED and Champs

[coach]

Okay, this may actually be a little over the top, but it's pretty close. Some who take good care of themselves will have a little higher STR and CON, and others who don't will have a little lower.

 

Average Police Officer

 

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

11 STR 1 11- 115kg; 2d6

11 DEX 3 11- OCV: 4; DCV: 4

11 CON 2 11-

10 BODY 0 11-

10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-

11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4

13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack 2½d6

10 COM 0 11-

3 PD 1 Total PD/rPD: 3/0

2 ED 0 Total ED/rED: 2/0

2 SPD 0 Phases: 6, 12

4 REC 0

22 END 0

25 STUN 3

 

Movement:

Runnning: 6"/12"

Swimming: 2"/4"

Leaping: 2"/4"

 

Cost Skills, Perks Roll

2 WF; Common Melee Weapons: Clubs, 0; Small Arms: Small Arms, 2

8 +1 Level w/All Combat

3 +1 Level w/Pistols

2 KS: Police Procedures 11-

1 Criminology 8-

 

 

 

Costs: Char.: 15 Disad.: 0

Powers: + 16 Base: + 25

Total: = 31 Total: = 25

[BNakagawa]

Seems a little spartan to me.

 

Police are trained observers, shouldn't they have at least one level in perception rolls?

 

Police tend to be well regarded by the general population, shouldn't they have reputation of some sort?

 

Of course, there's always the perks for local police powers, weapon permit, concealed carry (perhaps)

 

I wouldn't be surprised if your average cop didn't have a better city knowledge than the average citizen, so that should probably be improved over the everyman 11-

 

Depending on if the cop is a beat cop or a desk cop, he ought to have either streetwise or bureaucratics at the very least. Many cops issued squad cars are given combat driving training.

 

Depending on if your general population is based on 8s or 10s, the stats might be a little on the light side. Aren't all cops given at least some basic hand to hand combat training?

[Chris Goodwin]

FREd p. 17 has a Policeman package deal. FREd p. 227 has Noteworthy Normal, Skilled Normal, and Competent Normal. Choose where you want your cop's rough power level, add the package to the normal, and viola.

[coach]

Oops, yeah, I did miss out on the Perquisites to allow them to carry and enforce the law. But, for your average patrolman, I think you may be overestimating their skill/ability level.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by coach

Oops, yeah, I did miss out on the Perquisites to allow them to carry and enforce the law. But, for your average patrolman, I think you may be overestimating their skill/ability level.

 

All of those sharp eyed, quick witted detective types were patrolmen once.

 

Don't underestimate the average patrolman. They can be pretty competent, and many small and medium departments cross train them in other disciplines, such a criminology.

 

Aslo - a lot of departments pull the ranks of their swat teams, bomb squads, and hostage negotiators from people whos FT job is patrol.

 

And a seasoned street cop is going to have developed excellent conversation and streetwise skills.

 

Woe be to he who underestimates a beat cop and finds himself up against a SWAT member with an MP5 and heavy vest in his trunk.

[NuSoardGraphite]

You know...all this completely depends on the cops normal environment.

 

Is he a small town cop? if so, chances are, he's not even as good as the cop detailed above.

 

Is he an inner city beat-cop? If so, he's definately going to have streetwise and related Knowledge skills and City-based area knowledges.

 

Is he a cop in Beverly Hills or Hollywood? If so, then he doesn't see much action, but will probably have connections with various stars, directors etc, as movie studios coordinate with hollywood police often to keep the masses at bay as they film.

 

The above characteristics are actually pretty good for an "average" cop. Assume the average cop doesn't see that much action, but has the skills to deal with it when it does occur. Adjust the package slightly depending on environment.

 

I do agree though, that all cops should have at least a +1 Perception bonus, if not more...they are trained to look for things out of the ordinary, moreso than any other profession aside from detective.

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by coach

Oops, yeah, I did miss out on the Perquisites to allow them to carry and enforce the law. But, for your average patrolman, I think you may be overestimating their skill/ability level.

 

I don't really think so. Police screen their members, have physicals to pass and so on.

 

Take the average population. If you say the average citizen has all 10s for stats, then the average cop is going to have more than that.

 

Why? Because their screening process is going to eliminate the lower end of the spectum, leaving only the 10s and the higher than 10s. Any idiot can tell you that the average of a population with 10s and higher than 10s is going to be higher than 10. How much higher than 10 is an entirely subjective sort of measurement unless you get bench numbers for the entire cop population and general population, etc. Too much work.

 

If this was Sparta and the process of growing up eliminated the weak, clumsy and stupid, then the screening process for becoming a cop wouldn't change the averages much, because pretty much anybody who survived to their majority was capable of passing the tests for being a cop. But it isn't. There are large numbers of people in our population who could not pass the tests and exams for being a cop.

 

Ergo, Cops are going to be built on more points than your average burger flipper. Rookie cops are going to tend towards stat heavy writeups. Veterans will trend towards skills and levels. (the physicals for staying a cop are easier than the physicals for becoming a cop)

 

The difference between the stats for the average cop and the average citizen is going to be a function of how many applicants there are for each opening on the force. The more applicants per spot, the larger the difference is likely to be, because the police can select only the very best applicants.

 

$0.02

[Starcorp Man]

Page 177 of the Champions book has a sample cop, not that I agree but it is there, roughly 35 points (I figure Cops would be 50 point norms).

[sbarron]

I think that the average person now has stats of 8, not 10. Stats of 10 are used for characters that are already assumed to be healthy, fit, and generally above the average Joe.

 

For what it's worth, I'd give the average cop 10's and a 2 Spd, with WF but no levels. I just don't think they spend enough time shooting to merit having any levels. Some will, but it certainly wouldn't be the average.

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by sbarron

For what it's worth, I'd give the average cop 10's and a 2 Spd, with WF but no levels. I just don't think they spend enough time shooting to merit having any levels. Some will, but it certainly wouldn't be the average.

 

Given that some departments will require officers issued firearms to undergo training of no less than 35 hours with a class size of no more than 5 trainees per instructor with a minimum of 1,000 rounds fired in training, I think your opinion is very off-target.

 

How many hours and rounds fired do you think it takes to warrant a level with handguns? 70 hours and 2,000 rounds? 140 hours and 4,000 rounds? With a SPD of only 2, it's going to take a normal a loooong time to get a level in your world.

 

$0.02

[TheEmerged]

Attempting to link to two police writeups I've used for a while...

 

Generic Cop 1

 

Generic Cop 2

 

For comparison purposes, here's what I use for "baseline civilians". Note that GC1 and GC2 would have EveryMan skills while Area Man doesn't.

 

Area Man

Area Woman

 

/* crosses finger and hopes he did that right...

[Vondy]

Originally posted by sbarron

I think that the average person now has stats of 8, not 10. Stats of 10 are used for characters that are already assumed to be healthy, fit, and generally above the average Joe.

 

For what it's worth, I'd give the average cop 10's and a 2 Spd, with WF but no levels. I just don't think they spend enough time shooting to merit having any levels. Some will, but it certainly wouldn't be the average.

 

I don't disagree with your assessment of stats and speed, but as to marksmanship and other skills, you might be suprised.

 

A lot of departments require quarterly recertification, not only at the range, but in the simulator, and in essential drills as well.

 

I depends on the department. Some departments are extremely professional, and require stiff standards for their officers.

[coach]

One thing ya'll seem to be forgetting is that WF basically comes with 3 free combat skill levels with the weapon in question. That is, without the WF, you take a -3. So, just by merit of an officer having a WF makes him significantly better than a normal.

 

On the other stuff, well, the one officer I know, who underwent all this supposedly rigorous testing and training, has a tested 80 IQ. So, don't give me this "rigorous" stuff. She passed all those tests. I can outrun her. I have more stamina that she does. I'm more agile than she (and *nobody* would mistake me for a dancer). And I'm a gamer, so you know I won't be qualifying for the triathalon anytime soon. And yet she passed all those tests. And, lots of the cops who have pulled me over over the years have been WAY overweight. Actually, I do know some very nice cops who are in okay shape and decently intelligent, but I would not give them any higher rolls in their primary skills than I would any other professional. And none of them are what I would consider body-builders. Sure, they go through training, but so do plumbers, computer programmers, doctors, and game-designers. And there are many professions that go through WAY more training than police. Remember that an 11- roll means that you are "Competent" at something. That's really all you need to make a living at something. And a 4 CV is way better than a 3 CV. Just a point or two can make a huge difference in champs, you know, particularly at the low end.

 

Anyway, I think that 31 points is way enough for a competent normal. If you add in the proper Perqs that I forgot, you probably get around 40 points, and that's quite a bit for an *average* police officer. That's all the original question asked about. Sure, some will indeed be higher, and some will be lower, but that's a good average.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by coach

One thing ya'll seem to be forgetting is that WF basically comes with 3 free combat skill levels with the weapon in question. That is, without the WF, you take a -3. So, just by merit of an officer having a WF makes him significantly better than a normal.

 

On the other stuff, well, the one officer I know, who underwent all this supposedly rigorous testing and training, has a tested 80 IQ. So, don't give me this "rigorous" stuff. She passed all those tests. I can outrun her. I have more stamina that she does. I'm more agile than she (and *nobody* would mistake me for a dancer). And I'm a gamer, so you know I won't be qualifying for the triathalon anytime soon. And yet she passed all those tests. And, lots of the cops who have pulled me over over the years have been WAY overweight. Actually, I do know some very nice cops who are in okay shape and decently intelligent, but I would not give them any higher rolls in their primary skills than I would any other professional. And none of them are what I would consider body-builders. Sure, they go through training, but so do plumbers, computer programmers, doctors, and game-designers. And there are many professions that go through WAY more training than police. Remember that an 11- roll means that you are "Competent" at something. That's really all you need to make a living at something. And a 4 CV is way better than a 3 CV. Just a point or two can make a huge difference in champs, you know, particularly at the low end.

 

Anyway, I think that 31 points is way enough for a competent normal. If you add in the proper Perqs that I forgot, you probably get around 40 points, and that's quite a bit for an *average* police officer. That's all the original question asked about. Sure, some will indeed be higher, and some will be lower, but that's a good average.

 

An anecdote isn't evidence. Its not even an argument.

 

Different departments have different entrance requirements, and some departments have different entrance requirements based on age or gender.

 

In my area people who qualify for the Seattle Police Department or King Country don't necessarily qualify for the State Police (a very hard test physically in my state), or several of the smaller suburban departments who have more exacting requirements (often requiring highter written scores with picky oral boards).

 

Some departments even require officers to pass the same test as firefighters, and those can be very rigorous, physically. And many, gasp require at least two years of college, while many require a 4 year degree.

 

The average cop depends on the department in question, and there are thousands of local departments in the united states. Thus your experience with a ditz cop in bad shape, or your presumption that what you've seen in your area as average, may not be representitive of the profession as a whole, or the department another person has experience with.

 

The cop you use as an example wouldn't make several of the departments in my local area - including the one I used to volunteer for - but she probably would have made Seattle or King County.

 

Your assertion requires some sort of statistical evidence, or a broader examination of the profession as a whole, preferably in an active participation role. Impressions from people not in the trade aren't typically accurate or informed.

 

You knew an officer who... so what?

 

On the squad I worked with when I volunteered (11 +1 Lt) there were four expert marksmen (one was on the swat team which required additional time per week), six who took martial arts at least two nights a week (four passable, two black belts), one who had been trained as a crime scene investigator, and one who was a hostage negotiator.

 

The hostage negotiator had been a combat controller in the air force (special ops) before becoming a cop, and the lieutenant had been a fighter pilot in the air force for 12 years when he decided to enter the civillian sector because his wife was tired of moving around. He liked to call his squad car his strike-eagle. All of them had at least two years college, and three of them had 4 year degrees.

 

As you can see my anecdote, which comes first person as a volunteer who suited up and rode with these cops, is very different. Its still just an anecdote, however. Its not evidence. Its not indicative of the profession as a whole.

 

I knew a bunch of officers too... also so what?

 

There are so many variations that a GM will make a call for his Campaign City and will be right, even if their call is different from yours. Cops are people, not cardboard cutouts. And even if the GM could come up with the archetypal average cop based on accurate statistics - it might not work in the game.

 

The GM will have to decide how professional the department in their city is, how well trained its officers are, and how much of a challenge they want them to be for players or villains.

 

If you want out of shape bumpkin cops in your game with IQ scores that put them on the lower end of chimp that your call - and in your game you'd be right. Some of us may not share your impressions and prejudices and put them nigh on the end of 25+25. We'd be right too.

[Jhamin]

OK. Avoiding "I knew a guy" arguments (and that includes "I rode along") it seems like one of our problems is defining basics.

 

According to FREd, there are six basic categories of "normal". If we throw out Elderly and Small child we are left with 4. Check page 224. Now we have to decide is the Average police officer Averate, noteworthy, skilled, or competent? I doubt they are as good as a competent normal, that is the high end of the scale and beat cops often are not as skilled as their superiors or members of special units (who were once beat cops but have since been promoted) We will set aside what category they will be in, and just say for arguments sake that they are in a category higher that the average beat cop.

That leaves Competent, Noteworthy, and Skilled.

The question now becomes, what does a police officer need to have. In Hero terms. Now we have to ask some questions.

 

Stats - In Hero "normal guy" has 8s in everthing. Is a Cop as good as normal guy? Or better?

If he is better he is either noteworthy or Skilled. Which one? Hard to say, we aren't given any criteria which is which. What kind of stats does a fireman have? Is he stronger than a Police officer? How about a soldier in a combat unit? They are normals too. Where does everyone fit?

 

Moving on:

A weapon Fam? Probably.

 

CSLs with weapons? Harder to say. They certanly do practice, but you probably need to practice alot to even get the weapon Fam in the first place. How much do you need to get CSLs? Does the average hobbyist at the range have them? Does the average military recruit out of basic? Does the average infantry soldier? Before we can answer the question for the Police, we need to figure this out.

 

A CSL in all combat? Harder even to guess than the ranged CSL. If the average Cop has one, does that mean that the average martial arts student does as well? They probably spend more time on the mat if they practice three times a week. On the other hand the police probably need to worry about it more than the rest of us, so shouldn't that count for something? Or do they? How often does the average Police Officer get into a fight anyway?

 

How does this all relate to the total # of points it takes to be a Police Officer? If we acknowledge that it is a skilled profession that takes a 2 or 4 year degree to qualify for then does that put it on the same footing as other 2 or 4 year degree level jobs? How many points is a Police Officer compared to a Junior Engineer? Or a Pharmicists assistant?

[Crimson Arrow]

Isn't a large part of this argument simply about what one means by "average"?

 

1. There are NO average people in the real world.

 

2. For the sake of gaming, you have "average" characters.

 

3. Everyone acknowledges that IF you want, you can easily tinker round the edges of an "average " character, to reflect differences you would find in the real world. This may involve giving characters extra points, skills, levels etc, or possibly giving them extra disadvantages or slightly lower stats (the out-of-shape cop or the one who's scared of heights). Of course you can do both at the same time.

 

4. Decide what you are trying to simulate. Is it the average cop from films, comics etc., who is often portrayed as incapable of dealing with bank robbers, or is is more like how a policeman might be in the real world?

 

The answer is likely to depend on your genre. D-Man's argument is about what cops are like in reality. He may well be right; he has real world experience. As long as you remember that what's true in real life is not always what should be shown in a game, there's no problem.

 

Others are basing their arguments on the former option, which is entirely valid for game purposes, but might be a little harsh on cops in the real world. There are certainly going to be lots of ones at the lower end of the spectrum, though. Of course, part of the reason police often seem ineffective in fiction is because they are following procedures designed to safeguard people and their rights. Heroes are maverick cops, private detectives, vigilantes or superheroes who ignore those rules. It being fiction, they normally get away with it.

 

I think for most genres, cops should not be built on very many points, so that the PCs can shine. There will always be more or less competent ones and even outstanding beat cops and detectives (just like the Gotham P.D. in the Batman comics). Alternatively, just PLAY them as bound by the rules etc., so they SEEM less competent.

 

Just my views, of course YMMV.

[Captain Obvious]

I suppose if D-Man were to give us the marksmanship requirements for his police department, someone could convert that into game statistics and crunch the numbers to determine the minimum OCV for a cop (at least in his area). Of course, this wouldn't differentiate between OCV from DEX and OCV from CSLs, but it wouldn't be too too difficult to hash that out based on the noteworthy or skilled NPC descriptions....

[sbarron]

I agree with coach that the WF is really what makes a cop better than the average person using a firearm. That 3 levels diffence is a big one. And I also agree that you will see a wide range of proficiency in the spectrum of cops. Many have military experience, most were athletes in high school, etc. This all essentially boils down to the world that you are running. Do you want cops to be pretty tough? Then give them a level or 2 with guns, a 13 STR, and go with it. I generally wouldn't, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't.

 

I might actually up the Spd from the 2 I initially stated to a 3. Cops generally will be among the first people to start "doing something" in a crisis situation, and that's probably best reflected by a 3 Spd.

 

And since we are telling our "cop stories," my Dad has been a cop for about 20 years, and my younger brother has been a cop for about 3. I've been going on "ride alongs" since as far back as I can remember. All we talk about when we get together for Thanksgiving every year is cop stuff. No one wants to talk about the cool things trade analysts do. It's all about the arrests, drugs, murders, etc. Trade analysts are important too!!!

 

Do I seem bitter? I'm not. I'm a little envious of excitment, and the chance to actually do something "good" once in a while. And who every saw a movie about a trade analyst who gets to track down a hideous monster from beyond that is destroying their town? The cops get all the cool roles! But I do get to sit here in air conditioning and read about Hero games all day...and I make more money.

[Chris Goodwin]

Wow. A lot of discussion here.

 

Dude, just write up the damn character and play.

[Starcorp Man]

See I don't like the 8 stat normal, I really prefer the 10 base stat normal, working from there.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man

See I don't like the 8 stat normal, I really prefer the 10 base stat normal, working from there.

 

Fair enough. I used that standard for years.

 

I personally feel that the 8 stat normal thing does go along way toward fixing some of the problems with granularity at the low end of the system though. It solves alot of the "I'm mainly an investigator, but I still want to be in good shape so I have to spend 15 of by 25+25 points just to not be as wimpy as normal people" issues.

 

YMMV