Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

[jml]

I'm thinking of including a Shadow dragon (found in D&D) in my next FH campaign. This dragon's breath weapon bestows 2d4 negative energy levels on those unlucky enough to be caught in its path.

 

Now, when suffer level drain in D&D, you lose a Hit Dice, lose access to quite a few spells and take a -1 penalty to pretty much all of your d20 rolls.

 

I was thinking of doing this with Drain BODY and Drain Power -- where it always drained the character power with the most Active Points. I don't really know if this is possible, I'm just making guesses from Sidekick.

 

Does anyone have an better ideas?

[Fitz]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

You could do it as a combination of negative CSLs, negative PSLs and a BODY Drain. That should have roughly the same effect as a D&D negative level.

 

If you want the effect to be permanent, and to replicate the D&D mechanic of a Fort roll to negate the effect, it would probably be better to do it with a Major Transform with the Healing method set to something like "Victim makes a CON roll after 24 hours"

 

That's just off the top of my head; I'm sure there's a more elegant way to go about it.

[badger3k]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

For my own games I haven't looked at negative levels, because they don't translate smoothly. I figured I might do something similar to a Suppress - either random ability/power, or else in a general way (affects all abilities and powers at a 1d6 level maybe). One negative level (or two) might drop everything by 1d6 CP. Could be pretty nasty in the long run.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

Personally, I don't see it as worthwhile, but then again, negative levels and energy drains were never my favorite element of D&D. Always seemed *waaaay* more dangerous than the alleged power level of the undead in question, especially in 2nd Ed, where they allowed no saving throw at all.

[badger3k]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

Personally' date=' I don't see it as worthwhile, but then again, negative levels and energy drains were never my favorite element of D&D. Always seemed *waaaay* more dangerous than the alleged power level of the undead in question, especially in 2nd Ed, where they allowed no saving throw at all.[/quote']

 

It's still nasty in the latest, but it is easier to recover from (you get two saves, and the experience points needed are a lot less than they were before). They also have temporary levels that are lost for holding certain items (like a paladin holding an evil sword) - those losses are best figured with side effects, IMO.

[Rick]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

The actual Special effect of Negative levels is what? Negative levels is a powert that effects a system specific mechanic, what is the in game (not system) effect? The weakening of your soul, entropy being mystically enhanced or some other random thing. Start there than move on to a power that'll fit.

 

Remember Convert the game world not the game system.

[Old Man]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

Yeah, sucking your soul sounds like a CON and/or BOD Drain/Destruction.

[AlHazred]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

Try this power construct:

 

Cost Power END 85 Shadow Breath: Drain 3d6, Area Of Effect (19" Cone; +1), all Magic spells simultaneously (+2) (120 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1) plus Change Environment 2" radius (4" Cone; +0), -3 DCV, -3 OCV, Long-Lasting [Permanent], Multiple Combat Effects, Sticky (effects linger on individuals until they succeed in a Con Roll 1 Day later, or receive Restoration; +1/4) (75 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1), No Range (-1/2), Linked (Drain; -1/2) [4] Powers Cost: 85

Edit - I neglected to Delay the Return Rate on the Drain. It should probably be really long. Oh, well, it was a rush job anyway...

[Sketchpad]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

I like this build .. rep for you The only thing that I may've changed was a drain on END rather than just spells and maybe include a drain of Stun

[badger3k]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

Try this power construct:

 

Cost Power END 85 Shadow Breath: Drain 3d6, Area Of Effect (19" Cone; +1), all Magic spells simultaneously (+2) (120 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1) plus Change Environment 2" radius (4" Cone; +0), -3 DCV, -3 OCV, Long-Lasting [Permanent], Multiple Combat Effects, Sticky (effects linger on individuals until they succeed in a Con Roll 1 Day later, or receive Restoration; +1/4) (75 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1), No Range (-1/2), Linked (Drain; -1/2) [4] Powers Cost: 85

Edit - I neglected to Delay the Return Rate on the Drain. It should probably be really long. Oh, well, it was a rush job anyway...

 

I'm trying to figure how you calculated this one. Doing it in HD, I came up with the following:

 

Shadow Breath: (Total: 329 Active Cost, 124 Real Cost) Drain Magic 3d6, AOE (38" Cone; +1), All magic Spells/Effects Simultaneously (+2), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Century; +3 1/4) (217 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1), Power will stop upons successful Con roll or Restoration spell (-1/2) (Real Cost: 87) plus CE 16" radius (32" Cone; +0), -3 DCV, -3 OCV, Long-Lasting Permanent, Multiple Combat Effects, Range limited to 19" cone (+0), Mobile (+1/2) (112 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1), Linked (Energy Drain; -1/2), Power ceases upon Con roll or use of Restoration spell (-1/2) (Real Cost: 37)

 

Part of it is that for some reason CE doesn't have a range (haven't looked into it to see reason for this). I used mobile since it stays with the target (unless you use a different version, sticky would make other people get targetted with it if they touched someone under the effects). I am curious as to why you limited the cone to 4", since the total range is 19" for the Drain cone.

[AlHazred]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

I'm trying to figure how you calculated this one.

I've attached a prefab file. I no longer do calculations, man; HD does it all for me. My brain is shrinking - soon, I'll be able to keep it in a retainer cup on my nightstand...

 

Part of it is that for some reason CE doesn't have a range (haven't looked into it to see reason for this). I used mobile since it stays with the target (unless you use a different version' date=' sticky would make other people get targetted with it if they touched someone under the effects). I am curious as to why you limited the cone to 4", since the total range is 19" for the Drain cone.[/quote']

I was only offering one suggestion. I'm at work, so I tend to rattle them off fast, and then find a better way to do it later. You're absolutely right that Mobile would fit it better, as would, perhaps, Nonselective (especially if you made it BOECV). I've put mobile on the prefab instead of sticky.

 

The reason No Range wasn't available, is that in HD, the Mobile Advantage seems to take the range off of Change Environment. Perhaps a flaw, I'll have to look at my book when I get home.

[CDad]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

Shadow breath - nice ability!

 

I'm curious - not saying this is a bad idea - why attempt a "level-based" ability in a "point-based" system. I like the idea, just would not have thought of trying to do it!

[badger3k]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

I've attached a prefab file. I no longer do calculations, man; HD does it all for me. My brain is shrinking - soon, I'll be able to keep it in a retainer cup on my nightstand...

 

 

I was only offering one suggestion. I'm at work, so I tend to rattle them off fast, and then find a better way to do it later. You're absolutely right that Mobile would fit it better, as would, perhaps, Nonselective (especially if you made it BOECV). I've put mobile on the prefab instead of sticky.

 

The reason No Range wasn't available, is that in HD, the Mobile Advantage seems to take the range off of Change Environment. Perhaps a flaw, I'll have to look at my book when I get home.

 

I know what you mean - HD has caused my brain cells to go other ways. I looked up the "No Range" thing - you're right - making it mobile automatically gives it no range (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16363)

[Greatwyrm]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

A number of negative level effects also turn you into an undead creature. You may want to set that up as a major transform. Maybe link it with unluck to get the penalities to doing anything useful.

[AlHazred]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

I'm curious - not saying this is a bad idea - why attempt a "level-based" ability in a "point-based" system. I like the idea' date=' just would not have thought of trying to do it![/quote']

I imagine there're people who have only ever played D&D, who might be interested in some of the other games coming out during the "D&D Renaissance." I don't think they'll have much staying power, but it's interesting to try to fit their (pre)conceptions into HERO System terms - I often say it "can" do anything, but I don't usually have to put my money where my mouth is.

[AlHazred]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

A number of negative level effects also turn you into an undead creature. You may want to set that up as a major transform. Maybe link it with unluck to get the penalities to doing anything useful.

Major Transform (normal person to one with Unluck) would be another way to relfect the power of Negative Levels; it really depends on the GM's idea of the metaphysics of his setting. My method was more a "hard numbers" way to reflect the in-game effects of something that seems to be more of a game-mechanical effect rather than a "real magical power." At least, I've never read of Viziers in Arabian Nights stories who fight with ghuls and end up "less skilled" than before...

 

If you want the possibility of turning into an undead if it kills you, the most accurate way to model the ability would be either a Major Transform (target to undead creature) with Gradual Effect or a Summon; either of those powers would have Trigger. If I was GM, I'd rule it as an unpredictable effect of dying under the influence of "dark magic" and wouldn't bother statting it out, just like I don't bother statting out the source of most ghosts that inhabit my campaign setting...

[AlHazred]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

Here's another way to model the power, that may be more to your liking, as it has the potential to ding the characters more on OCV and DCV before capping off.

 

Cost Power END 122 Shadow Breath II: Drain 3d6, Area Of Effect (4" radius; (8" Cone; +0); +1), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Week; +1 3/4), all Magic spells simultaneously (+2) (172 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1) plus Negative Combat Skill Levels (-1 to opponent's DCV), Uncontrolled (removed when the character makes a Con Roll after 1 Day, or by Restoration; +1/2), Cumulative (24 points; +1), Area Of Effect (17" Cone; +1 1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 5 Years (+1 1/2) (27 Active Points); Linked (Drain; -1/2) plus Negative Combat Skill Levels (-1 to opponent's OCV), Uncontrolled (removed when the character makes a Con Roll after 1 Day, or by Restoration; +1/2), Cumulative (24 points; +1), Area Of Effect (17" Cone; +1 1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 5 Years (+1 1/2) (27 Active Points); Linked (Drain; -1/2) [4] Powers Cost: 122

[jml]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

Wow. I'm pleased to get so much info back.

 

I think Rick had it right when he said I should rethink what shadow breath actually does in world terms and then do the HERO modelling.

 

Alhazred, when my brain shifts back into stats mode (currently in story mode atm) I fully intend to sit down and sift through the stats you've done up. I'm certain I can find a use for everything. (Now where is the evil GM grin emoticon?)

 

And I certainly agree about the coming back as undead thing. That sort of thing has more mystery if its not statted out.

 

cheers,

jml

[paigeoliver]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

Ok, level drain is an absolutely rediculous effect based on a metagaming concept. You can easily bring the danger of draining undead into your campaign without going to extensive lengths to translate a brain fart someone had in 1975 that got repeated over and over again.

 

It is quite simple.

 

Simplest solution.

CON drain with the return rate bought down to like 1 point per year.

 

More complicated solution.

CON drain linked to BODY drain and/or DEX drain.

 

a 1d6 or 2d6 CON drain by itself is REALLY nasty to a heroic level character when the return rate is bought down to annually. It even effects the character's spell casting abilities since they will no longer have as much END as they used to.

 

While the 1d6 con. 1d6 body, 1d6 dex drain pretty much nicely and simply mirrors the overall effects of the D&D level drain, without getting intensely stupid about it.

 

Using the triple drain the average heroic character will lose (close to permanently), 1 DEX, 2 con, 4 end, 1 REC, 1 ED, 2 body, 1 SPD, 1 level of OCV, 1 DCV, and 3 stun. The effects of all that are going to be pretty darn close to level draining a D&D character. Note, the speed and OCV/DCV loss is based on the fact that the character likely bought his dex up to a level that rounds in his favor, and likely bought his speed up as well, and will now end up having CV rounded down, and being .1 short on speed.

 

And of course the triple drain will take about 10 XP to buy off the effects of, which takes about as long to earn in hero as it takes to earn a D&D level.

 

I would personally suggest changing it up a bit. Don't make all your level drainers the same. Give some the triple drain, give others the really nasty 2d6 or even 3d6 con drain. Let others drain body, let others drain STUN, DEX, STR, or even an EGO drain.

 

For something REALLY nasty like a vampire lord or Demogorgon then you could do a 1d6 drain of ALL attributes (get hit with that more than once and bie bie career).

[AlHazred]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

Ok' date=' level drain is an absolutely rediculous effect based on a metagaming concept. You can easily bring the danger of draining undead into your campaign without going to extensive lengths to translate a brain fart someone had in 1975 that got repeated over and over again.[/quote']

Hey, I was just trying to stick to the project's original specs!

 

Since Hero is an "Effects" driven system, I would consider how I want the characters to feel after the battle. If you want them to feel "drained" then include STUN and END draining effects. If you want them to feel "listless" then include EGO. If you want them to feel "ill" and "sick" (or maybe "nauseated") then include CON. If you want them to be "fearful" or less sure of themselves, include PRE. If you actually want to drain "life-force" include BODY.

 

This can be extended quite a ways in Hero. If you want the to feel the effects for a long time, drain REC. If you want people to notice something "odd" about them (maybe the taint of Shadow) then include a Major Transformation to give them a Social Limitation (-2 to -5 on Interaction Skill Rolls, depending on the person being Interacted with).

 

I'd surprise players with some weird, freaky stuff. For instance, if they were reasonably powerful, I'd include an Extra-Dimensional Movement (to the Plane Of Shadow), Usable As Attack, Area Effect (Nonselective), Activation Roll 8- (or even lower). Then, I'd include a side trip to the Plane of Shadow to discover their lost companion(s). [Perhaps they can bargain with the dragon for the return of their friends, and then have it send them to the Plane Of Shadow. While there, they discover the source of the dragon's weakness, or whatever.] Maybe I'd make the dragon a drain on the landscape (sort of like the basilisk of the medieval bestiaries) and give it a 1 pip Major Transform (normal landscape to shadowy blight) [see Surbrook's Stuff's Basilisk writeup for the Create Wasteland power] and throw a bunch of shadow creatures at them prior to the dragon encounter. Heck, combine these two ideas: the dragon's presence has "weakened" the substance of the area, and it's possible to stumble into the Plane Of Shadow just by wandering through a deep shadow.

 

Sorry, I got carried away. I'm just agreeing with paigeoliver that you should make unique most of the "individualistic" monsters in your game to keep the players guessing, and Hero makes that pretty easy.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

I'm just agreeing with paigeoliver that you should make unique most of the "individualistic" monsters in your game to keep the players guessing' date=' and Hero makes that pretty easy.[/quote']

 

This was one of the big draws for me, back when we starting playing Hero games other than Champions. The simple idea that a goblin could become powerful enough to be a dragonslayer turned fantasy roleplaying on its ear back in the day.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

The classic Dungeon Hero website conversion from AD&D has an interesting take on negative levels, which ties into the whole concept of levelled advancement. Essentially the author treats levels as a Continuous Aid which simultaneously increases certain Characteristics, Skill Levels, spell Powers and the like by a set amount per level. Thus energy level draining effects are run as Drains vs. those level "Aids."

 

Here is the section specifically describing levelled advancement. It would require a little adjustment for 5E (and IMHO would be more work than duplicating the concept warrants ), but it is a uniform mechanic which conforms more closely to how these things work in the source material.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

That's an interesting idea that makes for consistency between the source material and the Hero version, but it just seems clunky to me.

[Nevenall]

Re: Modelling d20 Negative Levels in HERO

 

If you have 5ER check out page 112. Specifically, Variable Effect Multiple Special Effects.

For the cost of two +2 Advantages your Drain can affect all powers and characteristics that a target has at the same time.