Why super tech never goes mainstream

[starblaze]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

I came up with a supervillian group who had the ability to create supertech items. They were all magicians but were influenced by Star Trek at an early age. They built a "transporter", their magic wands looked and acted like phasers and they communicated with each other via a communcator that on the inside had a round crystal ball hooked up to a 9 volt battery.

 

Anyone who saw the phaser in action could use it, but if they just found it, it would be a plastic toy to them. The transporter required one of the magicians to operate, otherwise it was just a huge prop. The magicians would travel around in a huge VW bus that would hold ten of them (three weren't in seats) and they had to take the middle seat out to make room for the transporter platform which was built into floor. You could also stand up inside the VW which shouldn't have been possible.

 

 

 

In the current campaign, supertech works with principles with magic but running counter to them. Another words, magic works where supertech has problems and vice versa.

 

Was the bus called the Mystery Machine by any chance?

[starblaze]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Some supertech doesn't get reproduced because the guy that built it can no longer reproduce it. Call it some kind of savantism, dumb luck or falling and smacking your head on the toilet. The scientist had a single breakthrough that helped him develop the technology. He cannot get it to reproduce so that one instance has become pricelss. He daren't take it apart to see how it works, because he may never get it back together again.

 

Kind of like Dr. Emmit Brown and the Flux Capicitor from the Back to the Future. Another example is the Professor character from Futurama, he built a StarShip that really should not be working at all because it defies so many physical laws but it does anyway.

[Storn]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

I am glad I'm in RDU Neil's campaign. I like, and agree, with his take on technology and really dislike the convention that many of you are trying to shoehorn an explanation for.

 

I think it is infinitely more interesting to change the world. Neil's Dr. Destroyer as a govenor was interesting cause and effect... and now that he is gone (natural causes), the world is even MORE interesting. Cops are starting to get nonlethal blasters (re: energy blasters), which makes their lives SO much easier.

 

UNTIL has a fairly sophisitcated network of teleports up now. REally changes the dynamic of UNTIL's superteam (UNITE in our game). Several characters have been at the forefront of Teleportation theory, and this is known by mathematicians and physicists, not hoarded.

 

The fact that aliens are out in the open, and humanity KNOWS BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that FTL is possible, not only that, used... changes the world. And that we are not alone. Then, of course, the backlash. Hungary is ruled by a paranormal fanatical christian who thinks he is an angel of god.. and we are not entirely sure he isn't.

 

The United States DOES have 50 Powersuits that they can put up into the air, several models based off of important PC and NPC Power Armor characters. That's cool. It is also annoying because the only time they've been deployed, they were late to the crisis and politically against our PC team .

 

The very rich can afford aircars. Almost all militaries have VTOL on a level that doesn't fall outta the sky like the real world Osprey.

 

UNTIL has Gateway, a name we came up with long before UNTIL was published, a shining beacon of hope, mankind's last, best..blah,blah,blah. But it does change things from our own world... in exciting new ways.

 

Neil and I have discussed this... we aren't doing superheroes anymore. We are doing a science fiction (or social fiction, if you prefer) with folks who have superpowers.

[Kristopher]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

I am glad I'm in RDU Neil's campaign. I like, and agree, with his take on technology and really dislike the convention that many of you are trying to shoehorn an explanation for.

 

I think it is infinitely more interesting to change the world. Neil's Dr. Destroyer as a govenor was interesting cause and effect... and now that he is gone (natural causes), the world is even MORE interesting. Cops are starting to get nonlethal blasters (re: energy blasters), which makes their lives SO much easier.

 

UNTIL has a fairly sophisitcated network of teleports up now. REally changes the dynamic of UNTIL's superteam (UNITE in our game). Several characters have been at the forefront of Teleportation theory, and this is known by mathematicians and physicists, not hoarded.

 

The fact that aliens are out in the open, and humanity KNOWS BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that FTL is possible, not only that, used... changes the world. And that we are not alone. Then, of course, the backlash. Hungary is ruled by a paranormal fanatical christian who thinks he is an angel of god.. and we are not entirely sure he isn't.

 

The United States DOES have 50 Powersuits that they can put up into the air, several models based off of important PC and NPC Power Armor characters. That's cool. It is also annoying because the only time they've been deployed, they were late to the crisis and politically against our PC team .

 

The very rich can afford aircars. Almost all militaries have VTOL on a level that doesn't fall outta the sky like the real world Osprey.

 

UNTIL has Gateway, a name we came up with long before UNTIL was published, a shining beacon of hope, mankind's last, best..blah,blah,blah. But it does change things from our own world... in exciting new ways.

 

Neil and I have discussed this... we aren't doing superheroes anymore. We are doing a science fiction (or social fiction, if you prefer) with folks who have superpowers.

 

This is probably closest to my opinion on the matter.

 

However, if the people who originate the cutting edge power armor, blasters, force fields, etc, are stingy with it, for various realistic reasons ("national security", paranoia, mistrust of the public at large, fear that a rival will get ahold of it, record companies being asshats, etc) that slow down the spread of technology in real life, you can at least moderate the scope and rate of change.

[Publius]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Neil and I have discussed this... we aren't doing superheroes anymore. We are doing a science fiction (or social fiction' date=' if you prefer) with folks who have superpowers.[/quote']I think that this is a fine way to do a game of that type if you want that "20 Minutes into the Future" style. I'm opting for something in the middle, with the products of supertech being available (super alloys etc.) which will eventually have a mounting effect, but the supertech itself (blasters) not having too much effect. It has a more "mainstream comic book" feel. In the future, I want to do some straight up near-future scifi and do something more like this.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

The simplest way to restrict the mass production of "Super Tech Devices" is to assign the device some rare or unique material needed for its construction or used as a fuel source. The ability to mass produce something assumes an abundance of base materials needed for their construction. This is not magic, it's economics.

 

Moreover, by doing this, a GM can also create interesting plot devices as well. For instance, a group of VIPER agents have a far better reason for busting into the high security warehouse to get more materials to build VIPER blaster weapons which makes more sense than stealing some DVD players for beer money. A player could really predict VIPER's next move using their own innate intelligence without having to make a Deduction Roll. When villain and agent groups are motivated by more logical goals, other than providing the players a good fight, a campaign acquires more depth to it.

 

[Whitewings]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

The simplest way to restrict the mass production of "Super Tech Devices" is to assign the device some rare or unique material needed for its construction or used as a fuel source. The ability to mass produce something assumes an abundance of base materials needed for their construction. This is not magic' date=' it's economics.[/quote']

 

A good example of this would be Antarctic vibranium in the Marvel Universe. Because it breaks down the structure of metals, mining and refining it is an enormously manpower-intensive job. It must be mined using ceramic tools, carried out by pack animals, refined over gas fires in ceramic crucibles, transported to its destination in metal-free sailing vessels... You get the idea. Granted, the natives of the Savage Land will work in the mines for relatively low wages (which must be paid in the form of trade goods, not cash), but you still have to get the stuff to market over some of the harshest and most inhospitable terrain in the world.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

The simplest way to restrict the mass production of "Super Tech Devices" is to assign the device some rare or unique material needed for its construction or used as a fuel source. The ability to mass produce something assumes an abundance of base materials needed for their construction. This is not magic, it's economics.

 

Moreover, by doing this, a GM can also create interesting plot devices as well. For instance, a group of VIPER agents have a far better reason for busting into the high security warehouse to get more materials to build VIPER blaster weapons which makes more sense than stealing some DVD players for beer money. A player could really predict VIPER's next move using their own innate intelligence without having to make a Deduction Roll. When villain and agent groups are motivated by more logical goals, other than providing the players a good fight, a campaign acquires more depth to it.

 

 

This is exactly what I've done with "crys-tech" as a source for the more "fantastic" super technology. That doesn't mean there aren't other sources of super-tech... bioengineering, raw improvements in conventional tech, etc. Just that truly reality altering tech has severe "resource constraints." This is great for managing the change inherent in such tech, but also great for plots. Much of the driving force behind many villain and government plots is trying to control crys-tech, alien tech, bio-tech, metahuman tech, etc.

 

Also, it's not like I do extensive cost/return analysis for every villain plot or tech device... it's just that I establish that there will be semi-realistic resource constraints in the world, and the players expect this. Sometimes they don't have access to all the cool stuff they want... and at the same time, they have completely destroyed villain organizations over time with key victories that choked off funds and resources. In fact, the best way to ever get to a villain is force him/her to become desperate by choking off resources. Most master villains are smart. They avoid straight up confrontation, and run things through intermediaries and peons. Only when they have lost everything and no one will work for them, do they come out in the open... then the climatic battle happens.

 

(In fact, the idea of co-opting opponents over to the heroes side by offering resources and support for productive development has turned at least one villain into a positive NPC.)

[Myrmidon]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Apart from comic books where time is an arbritary concept anyway...

 

{One sentance summary of post}

 

The time drag from experimental one offs to mass production takes too long to be noticed in game.

 

{Back to full post}

 

Supertech does go mainstream, it just takes too long to be played out in games for any really noticable effect. Supertech is usually represented as extremely cutting edge stuff built as perfected one offs, and not as a ready to mass produce item. If its easy to manufacture Ironman suits why wouldn't Stark industries be rolling them the production line as fast as possible into the sweaty little hands of which every branch of the US military they had a contract with, and every nation or movement that could afford it. That in fifty if not thirty years down the road Stark industries will be doing just that doesn't crop up in comics or in most games.

 

A good example of this time drag in effect can be found by looking at computers. Computers were big, complicated, expensive pieces of equipment back in the 50s that preformed unsual and at times unbeviable tasks. It took until the 80's for computing technology to be minaturized and understood enough to start the commercial production of them in large quanties, and until the 90's for computers to really start becoming commonplace.

 

What was cutting edge back in the 50's & 60's (reference Batmans crime computer ~ which was a solid database of villians and targets around Gotham) to something thats commonplace today and can held in the palm of ones hand.

 

Another example is steam, Inventors were mucking around with steam powered locomatives at the start of 19th century, but it took decades before trains became a common mode of transportation.

 

Heck look at airplanes, it took two major wars to really get aviation off the ground and into something more than a toy for the ultrarich or adventuers into something relatively commonplace.

 

So fifty years down the road for the starting story people would be hopping in and out of teleport booths to travel the globe, or just down to their local gaming store...

 

 

Cheers, David

[sinanju]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Another example is steam, Inventors were mucking around with steam powered locomatives at the start of 19th century, but it took decades before trains became a common mode of transportation.

 

Heck look at airplanes, it took two major wars to really get aviation off the ground and into something more than a toy for the ultrarich or adventuers into something relatively commonplace.

 

So fifty years down the road for the starting story people would be hopping in and out of teleport booths to travel the globe, or just down to their local gaming store...

 

I remember reading some (by G. Harry Stine, I think) many years ago. In the article he described the likely results if a modern nuclear cruise missile were to land in the middle of the Manhattan Project in the 1940s.

 

They'd be able to figure out that it was a nuclear weapon, and they'd probably learn a lot about _that_.

 

But the computer chips that guide and operate it? Not a chance. Even trying to test it with contemporary tools would destroy them. They wouldn't have the tools to make the tools to begin to reverse-engineer much of what they saw. And even if they could figure out what it was supposed to do ("all the wiring to control the flight systems leads to this mass of slightly impure silicon, obviously that's the 'brain' of this device, but....") they couldn't possibly recreate it.

 

Sure, Tony Stark is a supergenius and can build a suit of powered armor. And, yeah, Dr. Doom could undoubtedly replicate it, but that doesn't mean the US governmetn could reverse engineer it even if they had a working model to start from. Not for years and years, anyhow.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

I remember reading some (by G. Harry Stine, I think) many years ago. In the article he described the likely results if a modern nuclear cruise missile were to land in the middle of the Manhattan Project in the 1940s.

 

They'd be able to figure out that it was a nuclear weapon, and they'd probably learn a lot about _that_.

 

But the computer chips that guide and operate it? Not a chance. Even trying to test it with contemporary tools would destroy them. They wouldn't have the tools to make the tools to begin to reverse-engineer much of what they saw. And even if they could figure out what it was supposed to do ("all the wiring to control the flight systems leads to this mass of slightly impure silicon, obviously that's the 'brain' of this device, but....") they couldn't possibly recreate it.

 

Sure, Tony Stark is a supergenius and can build a suit of powered armor. And, yeah, Dr. Doom could undoubtedly replicate it, but that doesn't mean the US governmetn could reverse engineer it even if they had a working model to start from. Not for years and years, anyhow.

 

well, we had a situation in a campaign where the alien prince, his science advisor, and his princess crash landed in their FTL-capable starship on Earth, in the city where our superteam happened to be. One of the other team members had built his own power-armor and was a super-engineer. Another had an innate talent for figuring out exotic tech. Also, the alien prince's evil counterpart had also crash-landed in his FTL capable ship, and was cutting a deal with the smartest guy on Earth/CEO(who happened to be a villain in his free time) of a high tech company.

So the 3 PCs sit down and work out a deal to help the prince rebuild his stardrive, in exchange for a 3-way deal to develop FTL drives, and starships, for commercial use, trading with the prince's planet, and eventually other planets. It took a year or two of game time, but eventually earth-built starships came to fruition. The campaign didn't quite last long enough for the full implications of that to be realized, but suffice to say, the PCs in question became ridiculously rich. I had plans to introduce an interstellar war based on a trade dispute, but the game ended before then.

[Storn]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

I just simply disagree with much of what has been said, aside from the game style I prefer. But everyone keeps talking how difficult it would be to "figure out" supertech. To this I say; bullpucky.

 

I know engineers in the auto industry. They buy cars from everyone, take them apart and learn from what the other guy is doing. So an energy blaster or power suit would be no different. The tony stark model couldn't be reproduced by the US gov't? Why the heck not? Now, it might be too expensive to retool Winchester factory (or Mcdonnal Douglas, Boeing, whomever) to produce it... but not be able to understand it? That is simply ridiculous. Stark and Doom aren't doing anything all that radical, at least from what i've seen. It isn't incorporating alien technologies or mystic forces... it is my conntention is how all the pieces fit together that makes Iron Man suit superior. And figuring out how all the pieces fit together is very easy with taking it apart.

 

Now, most nations and corporations probably cannot afford to pull apart a power suit and start producing their own, but the U.S. and certainly several European nations, China and Japan could. If there was sufficent enough cause. I also think that there would be a real, strong DESIRE by normal mankind to match up vs. paranormal mankind. Cops will want to be able to stand toe to toe with Grond if it is at all technologically possible.

 

One offs to mass production is different for every technology. So Myrmidon's model of the computer doesn't necessarily hold. Graphite and polymers made it to my tennis racquet & my bicycle rim pretty damn quickly.

[Korvar]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

So the model you see in comics of only governments and large corporations having supertech could actually hold? We can simply decide that most of the advances in "super" tech aren't of the carbon fiber mould...

[RDU Neil]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

My problem with all of this is that it is a double standard. We'll allow for practically magical super-tech... 'cause the PC wants it, and it is "genre"... but then we'll come up with as many real world reasons to justify why it can't be reproduced... just to justify some misguided notion that because it was done in the comics, that is the right way to do it.

 

If you are going to let tech realism slide... let it slide consistently. The PC doesn't get special treatment just because he wants a powersuit character. If he wants one in the game world, then he has to create it within the parameters of "real" for that game world. This means if there are limits on tech, he has to stay in those limits or have very good story reasons why he goes beyond. Nothing "just is." It must make sense within context.

 

If he can justify super-tech, the next question is "Why is it unique? Can it be reproduced? Why hasn't it been? Will it be?"

 

The impact of the hero on the game world is extremely important. I can't imagine gaming where these questions are not answered and investigated through game play (to some extent, at least.)

 

As for reverse engineering, sure there is a lot that would take years to figure out... the more advanced and alien, the longer it takes... but when the inventor is making money off of advanced machines and tooling, well it isn't like dropping an ICBM blind into the Manhattan project. That simply isn't an appropriate metaphor.

 

Taking it further, even if Stark/Doom is twenty generations ahead, they had to develop their tech a step at a time. They'd have to develop and refine the tools that make the tools that make the device. That kind of thing takes resources and production and funding, and that kind of thing leaves paper trails and ex-technicians and industrial espionage, etc. All of this would be useful in reverse engineering things.

 

All these excuses just seem like a lot of effort to maintain a trope from the comics that is pretty stupid in the first place.

 

And as for the time issue... well Marvel and DC have been around for decades. If the didn't reboot all the time and maintained a consistent continuity like they should, they could actually address these issues in a fantastic, literary, dramatic way that spans years of stories. Since my game has been running almost 18 years... well, I've been able to do what the lousy comic companies can't.

 

I game to be better than the comics... not to emulate their worst aspects.

[dbsousa]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

In my Superhero game the secret behind supertech is this: People's imagination shapes reality. Thus, in the 50's, radiation created mutant ants, and superpowers. As scientists studied it, they could find no logic behind it, and it stopped happening. Today radiation just gives you cancer. Gadgeteers in my game are either tremendous optimists or mad scientists, who are out on the cutting edge of science, and their expectations shape reality. When the plodding scientists follow behind to check their work, reality conforms to their scientific method. Dr. Destroyer became aware of this phenomenon, which is his secret reason for creating Menton and Mentalla. By controlling the minds of enough people on the planet, he can remake reaity in his image, by forcing the world to accept it...

[Agent X]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

My problem with all of this is that it is a double standard. We'll allow for practically magical super-tech... 'cause the PC wants it, and it is "genre"... but then we'll come up with as many real world reasons to justify why it can't be reproduced... just to justify some misguided notion that because it was done in the comics, that is the right way to do it.

 

If you are going to let tech realism slide... let it slide consistently. The PC doesn't get special treatment just because he wants a powersuit character. If he wants one in the game world, then he has to create it within the parameters of "real" for that game world. This means if there are limits on tech, he has to stay in those limits or have very good story reasons why he goes beyond. Nothing "just is." It must make sense within context.

 

If he can justify super-tech, the next question is "Why is it unique? Can it be reproduced? Why hasn't it been? Will it be?"

 

The impact of the hero on the game world is extremely important. I can't imagine gaming where these questions are not answered and investigated through game play (to some extent, at least.)

 

As for reverse engineering, sure there is a lot that would take years to figure out... the more advanced and alien, the longer it takes... but when the inventor is making money off of advanced machines and tooling, well it isn't like dropping an ICBM blind into the Manhattan project. That simply isn't an appropriate metaphor.

 

Taking it further, even if Stark/Doom is twenty generations ahead, they had to develop their tech a step at a time. They'd have to develop and refine the tools that make the tools that make the device. That kind of thing takes resources and production and funding, and that kind of thing leaves paper trails and ex-technicians and industrial espionage, etc. All of this would be useful in reverse engineering things.

 

All these excuses just seem like a lot of effort to maintain a trope from the comics that is pretty stupid in the first place.

 

And as for the time issue... well Marvel and DC have been around for decades. If the didn't reboot all the time and maintained a consistent continuity like they should, they could actually address these issues in a fantastic, literary, dramatic way that spans years of stories. Since my game has been running almost 18 years... well, I've been able to do what the lousy comic companies can't.

 

I game to be better than the comics... not to emulate their worst aspects.

Stark and Doom aren't alone they are just two of the leaders. Where are you getting that idea? You can game to be better than the comics all you want but what is better to you and what is better to me are two different things. And your rationale doesn't jive with my experience in reading comic books. Marvel has Stark, Doom, Richards, Pym, The Mad Thinker, and AIM and so on. Governments have Helicarriers, Flying Cars, Blasters, Space Bases, Adamantium and so on. It's far from what you are implying.

[sinanju]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

As for reverse engineering' date=' sure there is a lot that would take years to figure out... the more advanced and alien, the longer it takes... but when the inventor is making money off of advanced machines and tooling, well it isn't like dropping an ICBM blind into the Manhattan project. That simply isn't an appropriate metaphor.[/quote']

 

It was a cruise missile, not an ICBM. And my point was only that simply having a working model to study doesn't mean you'll be able to do anything with it. If the tech is advanced enough over what you're capable of, you simply don't have the tools or the paradigm necessary to figure it out.

 

Taking it further, even if Stark/Doom is twenty generations ahead, they had to develop their tech a step at a time. They'd have to develop and refine the tools that make the tools that make the device. That kind of thing takes resources and production and funding, and that kind of thing leaves paper trails and ex-technicians and industrial espionage, etc. All of this would be useful in reverse engineering things.

 

On this point, however, you're right. A single cruise missile appearing out of nowhere is one thing. But unless Stark is making the tools to make the tools to make the tools to build the armor, and building _all_ the pieces himself, he's got to be working from the general tech base, and making use of standard techniques, tools and possibly even parts.

 

All these excuses just seem like a lot of effort to maintain a trope from the comics that is pretty stupid in the first place.

 

It's not stupid, it's just not what YOU want to do. You see it all the time in movies and television as well. The _real_ reason why the secret of Immortals (Highlander), Stargates (SG-1), invisible men, bionic men, witches (Charmed) must be maintained at all costs is not because the public will panic or they'll be arrested and dissected. It's because they want to set the stories in the real world, and in the real world we know these things don't exist, so they have to justify public ignorance.

 

And as for the time issue... well Marvel and DC have been around for decades. If the didn't reboot all the time and maintained a consistent continuity like they should, they could actually address these issues in a fantastic, literary, dramatic way that spans years of stories. Since my game has been running almost 18 years... well, I've been able to do what the lousy comic companies can't.

 

No, you've done what the comic companies don't WANT to do.

 

They're doing stories about fantastic characters and events in today's world. They "reset" the background and continuity on purpose, not by accident. As years or decades pass, occasionally this requires them to revamp the background. Character origins don't fit anymore (chemical accident, then radiation accident, now it's genetic engineering or nanotech); character backgrounds don't fit anymore (WWII vet, then Korean vet, then Vietnam vet...). They're also writing for new readers, not the vocal but smaller crowd of long-time fans. New readers mostly don't know and don't care about the last 40 years of Spider-Man continuity; they're perfectly happy with a rebooted version who is a teenager again.

[Storn]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

. And your rationale doesn't jive with my experience in reading comic books. Marvel has Stark' date=' Doom, Richards, Pym, The Mad Thinker, and AIM and so on. Governments have Helicarriers, Flying Cars, Blasters, Space Bases, Adamantium and so on. It's far from what you are implying.[/quote']

 

Precisely, Marvel and DC universes are LITTERED with all this high tech stuff and yet every day life goes on EXACTLY like our own. Or worse, even more behind the times than our own (simply can't expect huge creative staffs to keep up with every ish of Sci. American or Harvard Medical..what have you).

 

Not even fashion is affected (negatively or postitively) within the pages of those comics. Sure, an issue here or there, or a run of a book (Superman and teh current incarnation of Metropolis, where it is truly the City of Tomorrow comes to mind... but why hasn't that spilled to London, Paris, New York, pop! Pop music!)

 

We don't see the exploration of space because Green Latern donates 72 hours a month to NASA to get payloads into orbit up at savings to the tune of Billions! Or even a mention really.

 

We don't see Iron Man/Stark putting out a line of clothes with networkable computers for business execs on the arm sleeves.

 

We don't see Doom, who has a freakin' tiny country besieged by not only the FF, but the US, the most power country in the world, selling a better tractor and dealing with outsourcing of labor to Albania. I, mean, c'mon, the dude needs some funds.

 

We don't see non lethal energy blasters getting to cops in Gotham, despite the fact that every tom, dick and harry in a Cobra outfit seems to have one. Wouldn't Israel come off a lot better if they stunned Palestinian kids throwing rocks with an electro bolt instead of shooting them with lead and rubber bullets? Granted, the EB is really a byproduct of Champions Normal attack mechanic... a lot of comic energy blasters could be considered lethal.

 

We don't seem the enterprising scientists at 3M chasing Spiderman around, hoping to get some of his webbing for analyzation so they can make a better sticky-note.

 

I'm being a bit goofy, but it is to make a point.

 

Bottom line, there is no cause and effect and that strikes Neil and me as a false assumption. An easy assumption to be sure. It is easier to write, easier to run if there is a status quo on technology impacting society. But I think a lot of really dramatic ideas get avoided with this path. NO. This style of game is not for every group or every GM... we aren't suggesting that. But I am suggesting there are REAL rewards for going on the harder path. And it is hard, Neil and I bump heads over expectations from time to time. He has to put a lot of thought into how a new character might affect the overall perception that the world has... it ain't easy. But sure is fun.

 

People with Powers would affect the world. Super tech would transform it. In ways we cannot imagine. Maybe that energy blaster is a reall cool, powerful weapon for supers to wield... but a possible side application of cleaner fuel for cars would transform our world. What if that happened? What happens if the Middle East is no longer as important on the Global Resource stage? What happens when Supers who fly are crossing borders? Do they carry passports? What happens when powersuits are standard issue to the air force? These are really damn cool questions... and the answers can be as varied and different as there are Champions players.

 

Sure, some folks wanna have slugfests and the 4 color experience. Not me. I want coversations about that Shining City on the Hill, global politics, the responsiblity of power (tech or otherwise), destiny and dreaming. I just like expressing those conversations thru Superheroes and have the occasional slugfest with dramatic ramifications. I want Supertech. But I want the ramifications as well. I don't want to hand wave it away. I want to tackle it head on and think it through and make some choices.

 

that's all.

[Storn]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

The _real_ reason why the secret of Immortals (Highlander), Stargates (SG-1), invisible men, bionic men, witches (Charmed) must be maintained at all costs is not because the public will panic or they'll be arrested and dissected

 

And ya know what? That always bugs me. Especially Highlander. If they just slunk off and died quietly, sure, I would have no problem with a secret war in the shadows down the ages. At least Buffy's vampires curled up into dust... tough on CSI, ya know? But explosive pyrotechinics!!! C'mon!!! Paris looks like chinese new year at least 14 times a year! Always with some headless body on the scene afterwards.... hmmmm.....

 

I think X Files should have had the balls to have an alien invasion that was out in the open and the whole world had to wake up to. Pull a freakin' V, have BeeCloneSuperSoldiers walking into the White House and taking over. Sure, it would have changed the show, but it was time in the last 2 seasons.. it was stale anyway.

 

I like change. I like thinking big. I like challenging assumptions. And I love being surprised. Stargate revealed?!?!? Sure, why not. Opens up tons of new stories as the Chinese complain bitterly that the Russians and the US are sending folks all over 2 galaxies. Or surprise, humanity grows up a notch as they have to face full scale galactic conflict. It doesn't have to take away from the main cast... in fact, if it does, its pisspoor writing in my book.

 

Now, granted, it is tough for a tv show to do this because of only one thing... not lack of imagination.... budget. Tough to have lots of cast. Lots of locales, etc. etc. But in roleplaying games & comics? WE DON'T HAVE A BUDGET. we can be as BIG as we wanna.

 

Sure, I admit, you have to pick your spots. Example Assumption: If supers existed, there would be laws on the books pretty damn fast trying to deal with them. I don't think supervigilantism would be tolerated IF it could be prevented. So, the group has to make a decision... are Supers so powerful they are above the law (Kingdom Come, Aberrant).. or just too damn sneaky and covert... (Sleeper)... or do we have a world that looks like Harvey Birdman, Attorney at Law... all are completely valid campaign benchmarks.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

The short answer: because a world where super tech went mainstream would quickly look very different from the real world; because characters whose abilities come from super tech would become much less special if much of their tech was available off the rack; and because comic book writers don't want to deal with that stuff, so they hand wave it away when they have to.

 

In a superhero RPG campaign, the GM and players are not necessarily bound by the same conceit. It's up to the group to decide whether or not supertech can be developed commercially. If the GM decides one thing and the players wanted the other, grumbling will ensue.

[Agent X]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Precisely, Marvel and DC universes are LITTERED with all this high tech stuff and yet every day life goes on EXACTLY like our own. Or worse, even more behind the times than our own (simply can't expect huge creative staffs to keep up with every ish of Sci. American or Harvard Medical..what have you).

 

Not even fashion is affected (negatively or postitively) within the pages of those comics. Sure, an issue here or there, or a run of a book (Superman and teh current incarnation of Metropolis, where it is truly the City of Tomorrow comes to mind... but why hasn't that spilled to London, Paris, New York, pop! Pop music!)

 

We don't see the exploration of space because Green Latern donates 72 hours a month to NASA to get payloads into orbit up at savings to the tune of Billions! Or even a mention really.

It's a comic book, not an RPG. They are setting up the action, running a few subplots, and having a superfight. I see no reason why they would spend too much time explaining how much better cell phones are in Marvel Earth than Real Earth.

 

And Supes has saved how many astronauts? DC Earth seems busier than Real Earth up there in space.

 

We don't see Iron Man/Stark putting out a line of clothes with networkable computers for business execs on the arm sleeves.

We do see him helping the military develop Mandroid Armor, Guardsman Armor, Specialized Armor, and weapons systems galore. His contributions center on this because his comic is action oriented.

 

We don't see Doom' date=' who has a freakin' tiny country besieged by not only the FF, but the US, the most power country in the world, selling a better tractor and dealing with outsourcing of labor to Albania. I, mean, c'mon, the dude needs some funds.[/quote'] He's got robots all over Latveria and one heck of a communications/surveillance network. They've indicated there is a lot of hidden tech helping out in Latveria. And remember Wakanda? Consider the technological implications of the Underground Tech Jungle there.

 

We don't see non lethal energy blasters getting to cops in Gotham' date=' despite the fact that every tom, dick and harry in a Cobra outfit seems to have one. Wouldn't Israel come off a lot better if they stunned Palestinian kids throwing rocks with an electro bolt instead of shooting them with lead and rubber bullets? Granted, the EB is really a byproduct of Champions Normal attack mechanic... a lot of comic energy blasters could be considered lethal.[/quote'] I could swear I've seen special forces of the government using blasters in Marvel and DC.

 

We don't seem the enterprising scientists at 3M chasing Spiderman around, hoping to get some of his webbing for analyzation so they can make a better sticky-note.

 

I'm being a bit goofy, but it is to make a point.

Most of Spidey's webbing is designed to dissipate so it can't be analyzed. Also note, in DC Earth it has been established that prosthetic, for example, are more advanced and available to far more people than in Real Earth.

 

Bottom line' date=' there is no cause and effect and that strikes Neil and me as a false assumption. An easy assumption to be sure. It is easier to write, easier to run if there is a status quo on technology impacting society. But I think a lot of really dramatic ideas get avoided with this path. NO. This style of game is not for every group or every GM... we aren't suggesting that. But I am suggesting there are REAL rewards for going on the harder path. And it is hard, Neil and I bump heads over expectations from time to time. He has to put a lot of thought into how a new character might affect the overall perception that the world has... it ain't easy. But sure is fun.[/quote'] I disagree that there is no cause and effect in comics. I think the big problem is that comics aren't generally about Super Society. They are generally about Heroic Conflicts with Super Powers. The other issue is Continuity. The companies don't pay enough attention to continuity to address these issues in a way that is easy to follow.

 

People with Powers would affect the world. Super tech would transform it. In ways we cannot imagine. Maybe that energy blaster is a reall cool' date=' powerful weapon for supers to wield... but a possible side application of cleaner fuel for cars would transform our world. What if that happened? What happens if the Middle East is no longer as important on the Global Resource stage? What happens when Supers who fly are crossing borders? Do they carry passports? What happens when powersuits are standard issue to the air force? These are really damn cool questions... and the answers can be as varied and different as there are Champions players.[/quote'] I don't know if you should be speaking for RDU Neil. He's telling me that he's gaming to be better than the comics. Those what ifs can be interesting, but it isn't MORE rational than the standard superhero settings we see.

 

Sure, some folks wanna have slugfests and the 4 color experience. Not me. I want coversations about that Shining City on the Hill, global politics, the responsiblity of power (tech or otherwise), destiny and dreaming. I just like expressing those conversations thru Superheroes and have the occasional slugfest with dramatic ramifications. I want Supertech. But I want the ramifications as well. I don't want to hand wave it away. I want to tackle it head on and think it through and make some choices.

 

that's all.

The ramifications of Supertech are dependent on the rationalizations of Supertech. My assumption in my games is that some technological masterminds are way ahead of everyone else and no one is going to mass produce their technology unless they (the masterminds) are so inclined, and maybe not even then.

 

I game to have fun and to emulate the themes in comics, and elsewhere, that I like. I don't worry about "better." There is no "better." There is what I like more and what I like less and what I just plain don't like or loathe.

[Rapier]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

My Champions campaign kind of sits the fence. Some supertech doesn't get around for the usual reasons. But my campaign is (as of last weekend) in 2088. That is far enough in the future for me to tinker with some technology. I can also get around any kind of current socio-politcol problems.

 

Cops do have blasters.

Petroleum is not the fuel of choice.

There are laws regarding the use of superforce.

There are space stations in orbit and a new one on the moon.

 

It also gives me lots of free reign. President Munoz (child star of Malcom in the Middle) served two consecutive terms in the 2050s.

 

Yes, its a LOT of work. But not so much when you spread the work over a decade and a half.

[Myrmidon]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

I just simply disagree with much of what has been said, aside from the game style I prefer. But everyone keeps talking how difficult it would be to "figure out" supertech. To this I say; bullpucky.

 

One offs to mass production is different for every technology. So Myrmidon's model of the computer doesn't necessarily hold. Graphite and polymers made it to my tennis racquet & my bicycle rim pretty damn quickly.

 

 

True materials like graphite and polymers had a shortened span from exotic high end material used for expensive one offs to mass production in current products. It doesn't however discount the long development span of ground breaking technologies, graphite and polymers after all are merely subsets of synthetic and exotic materials that have been developed over the past century. We've already done this with aluminum, nylon etc.

 

For example: If a PC/NPC developed Ultratough a ubertough fabric that was highly resistant yet breathable and soft and silkly it would likely experience a rapid transition to the marketplace. Its merely stretching the bounds of todays technology, not cutting new ground. Sure the player would earn mega $$$ buts the concept isn't new, its simply upping the potential of todays stuff.

 

Would blasters take that long to diseminate into mass production for militarys around the world, not really as they're already working on High Energy weapons for battlefield applications. Of course the real trick is minaturizing the blasters into infantry weapons.

 

I have no problem with tanks, and other vehichles armed with big kick ass energy cannons. The real problem with blasters is downsizing the powersupply. However given that people have been serious work for years on creating really powerful small batteries, with the advantage of supertech I can see it being solved quickly.

 

Powerarmour being manufactured prettly quickly, of course DARPA is already working on the basis for it with Future Solider. Supertech simply speeds it up.

 

Faster Than Light, Gravity control, and teleportation technologies are something I don't see having a quick turnaround. They really are "Super Tech" items that we can talk about in Science Fiction, but barely can begin to talk about even in the most current cutting edge science.

 

If supers suddenly appeared tommorow can I see some radical advances in the level of Earthly technology in five years, sure. Blasters, Power Armour, and flying cars all over the place. Basically our current items would recieve some kick ass upgrades. Would we see the sudden creation of mass produce FTL drives, gravity control devices, and teleportation circles I seriously doubt it.

 

Cheers, David

[Korvar]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

We don't seem the enterprising scientists at 3M chasing Spiderman around, hoping to get some of his webbing for analyzation so they can make a better sticky-note.

 

Actually, there was one Spider-man story (possibly a team-up) with exactly that plot. An industrial manufacturer wanted Spider-Man's webfluid so he could make a better bullet-proof vest. He eventually roped in Wonder-Man to do a demonstration of his ersatz webfluid, to draw Spider-Man into a trap and try and steal his secrets.

 

Not sure how it was resolved in the end. I don't know if Spider-Man eventually gave the guy his secrets or not... I suspect not, but I'd like to recall his justification...

[Storn]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Spidey's webs stick around for about an hour. Enterprising researchers would have 45 mins, assuming 15 mins of getting to it, to anaylze the damn stuff. Not easy, but the profit margin? whoo boy. be totally worth the trouble.

 

Yes, blasters appear in special forces hands, yes, spidey's formula is a plot of ONE comic book (outta how many issues since 1964?), yes, wakanda and doom's robots ploferate the plotlines of some comics.

 

I acknowledge all that. But I think I got to what is the core of my argument with AgentX. He states that he seeks to emulate comics. But comics are created by endless, rotating teams of creators. There is no WAY consistency in world building can happen. He is seeking to emulate a body of work that is ALL about the status quo.

 

I'm simply not interested in the status quo. I"m interested in the implications of super powers impacting the world, and by association, interested in supertech impacting the world. Gaming is different, a campaign CAN be consistent in the way, Comics, can not. There might be a few rotating players, but for the most part, the creative team is going to be the same. I think we are using comics as the foundation, and building from there.

 

I believe for Neil (and correct me if I'm wrong, Neil) that "better" means working in that model, comics as the foundation, lets build from there. Better might mean something different to many of you. That's cool. But I've been posting in this thread to shake up things. To point out other possibities, other ways of doing supers.

 

However, I do find superhero comics in a rut. I want better comics, better stories. I prefer the graphic novel or mini series approach, because it does allow for more exploration of "super society" than is seen in monthly titles. I want to see superpowered history in the now. Kingdom Come, Watchmen, the Ultimate line... these are internally consistent because they break out of the monthly grind (except for Ultimates, which is a small & young enough line to be managed). Note the words internally consistent. That, I think, is the real key. I do think 'continuity' in comics has created some real disasters, like the splintering of way too many X books. Forcing them to create several lines of X books that aren't even in the continuity... but the funny thing is, those outside lines are internally consistent in a way that the main line is not.

 

So in that context, I understand what Neil means by wanting to game better than comics. Trust me, he loves comics... as do I. We both acknowledge that there should be comics for all types of readers. But we also believe that they should strive for more. One place for improvement, in our opinions, is this area. That's all.