Why super tech never goes mainstream

[Agent X]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Point of Clarification: I'm emulating what I LIKE in comics and tossing out what I don't. I'm also going places comics don't usually go. Biggest trick for me is finding the time and getting my players to appreciate the possibilities. But my emphasis is on the story at hand, not so much the profound qualities of the setting. I'm happy for anyone who wants to deal with supertech in a more aggressive manner in their game. What I am disputing is the idea that DC Earth and Marvel Earth have been written with the notion that they have not been affected by supertech and that supertech hasn't influenced mass produced technology and I'm disputing the notion that you HAVE to speed up mass production of supertech to have an internally consistent supers campaign.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

The Silver Age, in its purest form, is all about a magical, fairy-tale like world with magical people who don special garb and often exotic magical weapons to do battle with those evil villains who would challenge the status quo, and then once the status quo is protected resume the virtue of conformity by putting their costumes and special technology away. Supertech, which undermines and transforms the status quo, is an evil to be kept away from mainstream society. And supertech behaves like magic more than real technology. It's built for individuals and it is wrong for anyone but its owner to use it except in dire emergencies.

 

Iron Age worlds tend to be a bit more liberal on these matters, however they do take the more realistic view that it would be difficult for anyone but the government or a corporation to fund the development and manufacture of supertech. And even then it tends to be expensive. Cost is the simplest way to keep supertech comparatively rare. If a flying shuttle costs a hundred times that of a helicopter, not many people are going to get one.

 

Also, there can be manufacturing techniques that require a special breakthrough in order to work out. Just because someone understands how something works doesn't mean that they can build it themselves. "Well, the alloy here is made of three metals that we can't really blend all that well, and in a special lattice array that we can't recreate in our own laboratories. We don't know how they're making these elements." Of course the solution to this is espionage, to find out how they are making it.

 

Exotic elements are also useful, for the big guns. If you need element X and there's only a limited amount of it, brought in by meteor hits and so on, then you're out of luck unless you can figure out how to invent a way around it.

[Jinx999]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

In my world, super-tech depends on crystalised anomolies - effectively holes in the laws of physics. A quirk in the physical laws makes it fairly easy to create them - all you need is some soldering skills, some fairly generic electrical components and a garage or shed to work in. However, their properties are random. You cannot create a duplicate. You also need to be a genius to work out what one does and how to use it.

 

The most valuable ones are those that can be used to run powerplants. These power plants can provide electricity with no fuel and usually no polution. These can be sold for lots of money. They also make very good mcguffins and things for vilians to steal.

[zornwil]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

The quoted posts below probably come closest to my thoughts and make good springboards.

 

The short answer: because a world where super tech went mainstream would quickly look very different from the real world; because characters whose abilities come from super tech would become much less special if much of their tech was available off the rack; and because comic book writers don't want to deal with that stuff, so they hand wave it away when they have to.

 

In a superhero RPG campaign, the GM and players are not necessarily bound by the same conceit. It's up to the group to decide whether or not supertech can be developed commercially. If the GM decides one thing and the players wanted the other, grumbling will ensue.

 

I think this is a good point, and also would acknowledge Mutant For Hire's point about how the Silver Age is very much a sort of fantasy setting and cannot be held accountable to the same standards, as, say, a gritty "realistic" story.

 

I think that while I not only respect but would love to play in RDU Neil's world sometime, I thnk it's a huge mistake to have a disdain for supers campaigns that "unrealistically" limit the role super-tech has in the world at large. First, I am not so confident that ANY campaign, unless it carefully controls the realism of super-tech (which, to be fair, I tend to thnk RDU Neil's does, so it can deal with things easier), can reasonably extrapolate as to the impact of super-tech being distributed to the general population/general militay/general what-have-you. The impact, say, of people having instant teleportation or instant food generation is just...enormous. So I think that it's not as if those not interested in or unwilling to explore such an issue in depth or allow for it "realistically" are just sticking their head in the sand in a silly way.

 

Second, bear in mind that we often want to tell stories that relate to the world we live in, so letting our campaign world get too far away takes us away from some of the themes we wish to explore, as Megaplayboy's point indicates. And, emphatically in this vein to Storn's implied point (though I don't claim he was being necessarily deliberate in this implication), campaigns can be quite serious in themes, not being just excuses for super battles, and yet very much restrain the "realism" of the spread of super-tech.

 

Point of Clarification: I'm emulating what I LIKE in comics and tossing out what I don't. I'm also going places comics don't usually go. Biggest trick for me is finding the time and getting my players to appreciate the possibilities. But my emphasis is on the story at hand' date=' not so much the profound qualities of the setting. I'm happy for anyone who wants to deal with supertech in a more aggressive manner in their game. What I am disputing is the idea that DC Earth and Marvel Earth have been written with the notion that they have not been affected by supertech and that supertech hasn't influenced mass produced technology and I'm disputing the notion that you HAVE to speed up mass production of supertech to have an internally consistent supers campaign.[/quote']

 

I'm probably a tad heavier than AgentX on setting, but generally this is a good summation of my position (you can always tell by the incidence of agreement with AgentX that we're not in NGD ).

 

To take off from this point, in my supers campaign, super-tech is carefully controlled by some world governments to the extent they have it - and in fact in some ways the economy and society have suffered a bit. Because of these tight controls (NB - supers began just post-WWII, so you are aware of timing), for example, the Internet isn't as widespread in usage as it is in our world. In general, even in Western democracies, including the US, government has more control over technology and thus businesses have less, although, especially in the West where there is of course still very much a reliance on capitalism, some high-tech companies of course are developing, with governmental cooperation/approval, extreme technology. And of course, a rare few (Stark Industries, ABC (Atomic-Bacterial-Chemical) Corporation namely/especially) certainly have access to super-tech that they use privately, particularly in developing commercial technologies but sometimes in more nefarious or beneficial ways.

 

Moreover, though, most of the super-intelligent guys who make super-tech simply can't or won't communicate their inventions, or at least not well enough. Dr. Magnus' ability to make robots has never been replicated, and in fact in general robotic beings (the AI, super-being sort, not the common robotics of course) have been very hard to recreate reliably on any cost-effective scale. The circumstances of this vary, but I've hinted in some part it has to do with the fact many of the super-robot beings are in fact rarefied designs with human brains at their center; naturally, they aren't too interested in being dissected and most super-robot vigilantes never are.

 

However, re the Magus Metal Men, the situation is different. Re robotics, one particular largely-but-not-entirely-correct viewpoint, expressed in a sort of white paper, in my world is at http://realschluss.org/x-champions/x-champions_setting/x-robots.htm and has been posted elsewhere on the boards (actually I forgot this is a pretty decent doc and in part actually was written as I was thinking about this "why doesn't super-tech have more impact?"). I bring this up mainly as it may be of interest in this context, but also moreso because of this quote re Magnus - "Doc Magnus has claimed that others simply have been unable to understand and replicate his sophisticated technology. A few close to him have suggested he is in essence an idiot-savant of some high order, who, despite this high achievement, is incapable of properly detailing how the robots work. But others suggest some far-reaching and undetectable mental powers. Neither of these wash on closer examination: it is inconceivable that in over 35 years no one could properly duplicate the Metal Men; and MIT brain studies have shown no energy, brainwave, or other correlation between Magnus and his Metal Men." I won't tell precisely which is correct, but I will say that a lot of super-tech is actually resonant mental power manifestation (albeit rather convoluted and I don't want to get too deep as it gets into the core of the construct of why supers exist, which I haven't revealed to the players, though I think they might have figured it out or suspect) and some of it is, however improbable, simply so dense and bizarre that it can't be understood.

 

Bear in mind that two of the PCs have well over 100 INT. Imagine the ramifications of that - anything someone of that order would make might well be just like alien technology to everyone. Now, realistically, I ENTIRELY grant that scientists and industrialists certainly should be able to at least replicate a design even if they don't understand it. But here I simply do outright say "suspension of disbelief" and just move on. Largely because I don't want armies of Metal Men in the major world powers. Which isn't to say the major world powers don't have some pretty esoteric AI robots...

 

Of course re the Metal Men, given their emotional make-up, to be fair, I don't think a lot of governments would WANT to replicate them. In fact the US certainly does not; their emotional character does in fact make them unreliable. But it goes hand in hand with their AI. Also, one thing which does make sense, is that so far all the AI designs haven't been reliable at all, even those made by the most brilliant inventors, so that super-tech simply hasn't occurred, anyway.

 

Sort of related on this topic, re supernatural stuff (discussed in another "white paper" at http://realschluss.org/x-champions/x-champions_setting/x-magic.htm re my campaign), it usually just disintegrates or disappears when destroyed, Buffy-like. One explanation is, as indicated in the referenced paper, "This strange dissolution of magical material has led many to believe in mass hysteria or mutant psionics as explanations. "

 

Re magical materials, the paper indicates "Whatever magical material remains appears generally to be no more than what it looks like until wielded by an appropriate party. Perhaps the best known is the modern Thor’s hammer, so-called Mjolnir, which under subsequent investigation appears to be normal. Only the traces of Thor’s genetic material are not normal. Yet when wielded in experiments by Dr. Strange it can produce theoretically impossible results, such as breaking through materials dozens of times tougher with no discovered weakness points."

 

All this stuff on the super-tech (and related "magic tech") in my game is just indications of how I handle it for my campaign, not a soapbox or recommendation or such.

[Rapier]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

The quoted posts below probably come closest to my thoughts and make good springboards.

 

[sNIP]

 

Kriminey Kristmas!!

 

You expect me to READ all that?

 

Maybe tomorrow.

 

And they say that I tend to be wordy.

[zornwil]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Kriminey Kristmas!!

 

You expect me to READ all that?

 

Maybe tomorrow.

 

And they say that I tend to be wordy.

I was just thinking earlier this evening that I'm ESPECIALLY wordy today, sorry.

[Kristopher]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Personally, I like longer, thoughtful posts, at least when they have a point and are rational and calm. I even enjoy reading a thoughtful, calm post presenting a position I disagree with.

 

They make for better reading than a lot of the trite and blithe comments that get passed around in online discussion forums.

[Agent X]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

On the notion that it is easy to duplicate technology: I was watching the History channel discussing Archimides' Odometer that used gears, one with 40 teeth and one with 1 tooth, to measure long distances. Descriptions, including graphics, had existed for some time. Many, including Da Vinci, had used these descriptions and still couldn't make a working model. It wasn't until underwater excavations and the discovery of an Archimedian device in the present that someone successfully duplicated the design.

 

Now, that makes me think, if Archimedes' designs couldn't be duplicated without an actual example but basically everything else that it may very well be that the designs of a Reed Richards, Victor Von Doom, Lex Luthor, Mad Thinker, Doctor Destroyer, Teleios, or Mentiac may very well be beyond the capability of any scientist who isn't a peer in ability and intellect. The intricacy of the designs that these Super-Scientists fashion could very simply be beyond the ability for most to comprehend even if they have designs right in front of their face.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

I would point out that in the RDU, the considerations of super-tech are made for dramatic purposes as well. There are, of course, and infinite number of permutations and possibilities that could stem from something as simple as a highly efficient fuel cell... and no, I'm not going to explore and extrapolate every thing out to an absolute. What I do is... when it makes sense for a story or is a dramatic element of the RDU world in general... I will make a simple comment... provide a bit of description (electric cars being 40% of the market... HK has sold off it's plasma weapons division... whatever) that it provides just enough of the "we live in a fantastic world" element that the players can fill in the rest in their collective imagination.

 

More importantly, when the players come up with ideas for tech or social engineering, or a plot turns on a battle for resources or tech... it seems real for this world. It fits. You don't end up scratching your head saying, "Wait a second... VIPER has all these flying cars, and I'm supposed to find it plausible that this one scientist and his ideas for an new alloy is somehow SO important?" The issue here being, that I do expect plots to have ramifications and to "change" the game world at least a little bit. I want players paying attention to details and saying, "Oooh... what if..." in a way that provides for dramatic exploration of changing society.

 

In the end, the biggest payoff of this is that the players and their characters really feel important. They don't fight battle without meaning (well, rarely...) they don't just live in the world, but shape it... I have players blue book theories on metahuman biology, and then spend chits to say "This is published, lauded, as I get my PhD, and justifies my character as being seen as one of the foremost experts in metahuman evolutionary biology!"

 

Players remember tech they captured, turn it over, and follow up to see if that shuttle has been created to cut in half the travel time to Mars!

 

That kind of stuff thrills me, and provides so much "grist for the mill" that none of us have to be tech/science experts. We just have to be a little (just a little) more aware of cause and effect... possibilities and ramifications.

 

It just provides a deeper, more emersive, shared environment to game in... but YMMV.

[zornwil]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

I think I took the degree tow which you tried to extrapolate from all super-tech in an exaggerated fashion - thanks for the clarification. I do agree it's a great path/opportunity to let super-tech affect the world, whether one takes it or not.

 

On a side note but related, during my prior campaign, as a result of some botching up in a mission in the electronic dimension (long story...), the fictional creations of animation were all set free into our real world. So I just figured we now had a Roger Rabbit world and let it happen! Allowed for some interesting moments/ideas, though I always wished I'd spent more time on it as it got relatively short shrift.

 

PS - very importantly, I DO agree that PCs, at least where they are supposed to have large impact, should feel they can affect/alter the world, and so I do think it's good to allow for that.

[st barbara]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Did Marvel ever give any explanation as to why "The Wingless Wizard" , who can conquer gravity with a disc small enough to wear on the palm of his hand and strong enough to lift "The Thing" who ways several times the weight of a normal human, didn't simply patent and market his anti-grav discs and retire on the royalties, then simply buy out anyone he didn't like and wreck them financially ?

[Agent X]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Did Marvel ever give any explanation as to why "The Wingless Wizard" ' date=' who can conquer gravity with a disc small enough to wear on the palm of his hand and strong enough to lift "The Thing" who ways several times the weight of a normal human, didn't simply patent and market his anti-grav discs and retire on the royalties, then simply buy out anyone he didn't like and wreck them financially ?[/quote'] Not that I know of. I think part of it is that he wants to prove he's smarter than Reed Richards in a more direct way than a corporate takeover. It's pretty cool that his grav discs are powered by a couple of double A batteries (triple A?) though.

[Korvar]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Did Marvel ever give any explanation as to why "The Wingless Wizard" ' date=' who can conquer gravity with a disc small enough to wear on the palm of his hand and strong enough to lift "The Thing" who ways several times the weight of a normal human, didn't simply patent and market his anti-grav discs and retire on the royalties, then simply buy out anyone he didn't like and wreck them financially ?[/quote']

 

No.

 

There was a time when "I Invented It" was Just Another Way To Get Superpowers. On the same level as "I Fell Into A Vat Of Chemicals" or "I Got Struck By Lightning" or whatever.

 

You know, I wonder if the real reason nobody actually markets SuperTech - especially the villains, who seem to come up with the lion's share - is that you have to be slightly unhinged to come up with it in the first place... Not that that explains Reed Richards or Tony Stark...

[st barbara]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Note to self "Way" rather than "Weigh" ? My spelling is getting worse with all this typing !

[Enforcer84]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Turnip shaped aliens. It's the only sufficient answer.

[Broblawsky]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

Did Marvel ever give any explanation as to why "The Wingless Wizard" ' date=' who can conquer gravity with a disc small enough to wear on the palm of his hand and strong enough to lift "The Thing" who ways several times the weight of a normal human, didn't simply patent and market his anti-grav discs and retire on the royalties, then simply buy out anyone he didn't like and wreck them financially ?[/quote']

 

The Wizard not only patented much of his technology, but was a multi-billionaire before he started as a super-villain. However, he more or less went crazy and tried to frame the Human Torch out of boredom, went to jail, and probably lost most of his money from lawsuits. Then: BAM, super-villain.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

I always thought most of high tech villains spent as much money as they earned on supersecret bases and such. The mainstream applications for such items as Paste Pot Pete's Glue Gun would be limited I'd think and let's face it, it would be hard for guys like that to sell their technologies to legitimate businesses. Mostly they're going to be purchased through underworld channels who may or may not distribute them to the mainstream.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

It all depends on how you want your campaign to go, because nobody knows exactly how things would go in real life. So, as long as there's a somewhat plausible explanation, you're good.

 

Reasons villains don't patent their inventions:

-Someone else already owns the patents (they were working for the gov't, a business, or a business partner stole it from them--if you really want an origin, have the villain work w/ the hero, have the villain disappear in a lab accident (time travel?), and have him reappear 5 years later, after the hero has already patented the technologies)

-The villain was driven insane, and thus, he's not interested in "normal" goals

-The villain is already rich, and has no use for more cash, or anyone else knowing his secrets (you have to make designs and blueprints public when you patent them)

-The villain found some alien tech, and while he can get it working, he doesn't know how every little do-dad works, so he can't patent it

-The villain is already a known wanted criminal, and he doesn't want to give the authorities a return address

-The US patent office rejects his invention, calling it "absurd" and "completely ridiculous--it'll never work" (remember, they've stopped taking applications for perpetual motion devices). Thus, the villain will have to show them, show them all!!! that the machine works.

-Reed Richards already patented the damn thing. He hasn't done anything with it, but he sure got that patent in there fast. Another reason to hate the cursed Richards!

-The US patent office maintains a staff of technical experts (i.e., guys with a 13 Int and an engineering skill or two), and those morons can't tell the difference between one of Reed Richards' cross-temporal hyperspace viewfinder and your trans-dimensional quantum receiver. They look at the designs, scratch their heads, and go "Duh... 'dis looks 'da same, boss." So the patent office rejects your application. Or maybe they call in Reed Richards, and have him decide whether your invention is too closely related to his. Of course, he says they're the same. But you know different. First, you'll avenge yourself on those fools in the patent office. Next is that lying Richards. Then, the world!!!

-Someone (secret gov't agency, supervillain organization) intercepts super-tech patent applications and steals the designs. You didn't think Lex Luthor got so rich by inventing stuff himself, did you? No. He hires people to steal inventions and then patents it himself. "Lost in the mail" my ass.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

That's a damn nice list of motivations, Champsguy. Unfortunately, I can't give you any rep for a while.

[Whitewings]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

The mainstream applications for such items as Paste Pot Pete's Glue Gun would be limited I'd think and let's face it' date=' it would be hard for guys like that to sell their technologies to legitimate businesses.[/quote']The US Army, and police forces throughout the world, would *love* to get hold of an effective, reliable, fast-acting non-lethal weapon like that. He'd have no trouble selling it.

[st barbara]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

To "Broblawsky" Okay that at least is an explanation. Not a particularly great one, but an explanation that sort of works. When was this information revealed and which writer came up with it ?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Why super tech never goes mainstream

 

"In this campaign, Einstein still works in the patent office, he's about 114 years old, and if the invention doesn't follow his rules of physics, you're not getting the patent."