What should be DROPPED from HERO?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I'm not sure if the 1/2 DCV after bowshot should be removed' date=' but perhaps something should be done to make it more fair?[/quote']The 1/2 DCV on a bow comes from having the Concentrate Limitation on it. Maybe your GM will let you buy "Nimble Archery" or some such as a Skill or Talent, with the cost based on the amount it would take to "buy-off" Concentrate on your kind of bow.

 

(For example, a Heavy Longbow is 2d6K (30 Active Points). Concentration throughout is a -1/2 Limitation. A -1/2 Limitation on a 30 point power lowers the cost to 20 points. So it's saving 10 points on the bow. Maybe you could buy a Nimble Archery skill for 10 points.)

[Kristopher]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

The 1/2 DCV on a bow comes from having the Concentrate Limitation on it. Maybe your GM will let you buy "Nimble Archery" or some such as a Skill or Talent, with the cost based on the amount it would take to "buy-off" Concentrate on your kind of bow.

 

(For example, a Heavy Longbow is 2d6K (30 Active Points). Concentration throughout is a -1/2 Limitation. A -1/2 Limitation on a 30 point power lowers the cost to 20 points. So it's saving 10 points on the bow. Maybe you could buy a Nimble Archery skill for 10 points.)

 

Funny thing is, on a bow, the concentration should apply before it's fired, not after.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Funny thing is' date=' on a bow, the concentration should apply [i']before[/i] it's fired, not after.

It applies to both.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

If you go by the letter of the rules' date=' you're not supposed to just "hold." (snip) [/quote']

 

By the way, isn't that a 5th "tweak"? I mean specifically the rules around declaring a hold.

 

Tangent here, but I think that holding "just because" is okay. Then again, I used to actually disallow holding actually and only recently have reallowed it, so I'm coming from this perspective where I didn't like the idea at all in the past, and from liberalizing to the standard rules (or slightly more liberal as i don't require an explanation re holding) I've discovered that concern was moot.

 

As another tangent, in a phase, I'm fairly hardcore about most actions happening "simultaneously." Thus just because you have DEX 30 and I have DEX 15, you can't shoot me BEFORE I get a shot in. We will BOTH get shots in, no matter what. The only caveat I add is that defensive actions (putting up a force field, etc.) can take place prior (even for lower-DEX characters) IF the character makes a DEX roll, and similarly any sort of heroic actions, such as rescuing an innocent or blocking a shot for a teammate, can also be done just before an attack hits, again a DEX roll required. If it's particularly dramatic/critical, usually I require a DEX-vs-DEX roll.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

By the way' date=' isn't that a 5th "tweak"? I mean specifically the rules around declaring a hold.[/quote']Nope. It goes back to at least 4th.

[Agent X]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I have a character built around Multiple Power Attacks. It wasn't cheap. As a result, he definitely does not have the highest damage class attacks in the group. It has been very effective upon occasion but is certainly not overpowering in its use (Works well on low defense opponents/Not very well against high defense opponents). It's design allows me to choose between an array of energy attacks, physical attacks, a flash, and images (not that I've used images in an mpa). There is a big endurance cost and the maneuver's modifiers. I can comfortably say, that Multiple Power Attacks, in and of themselves, are not imbalanced or cheesy. I don't think there is any reason to add advantages to MPAs or to disallow them because someone might find a "cheat." You'd have to disallow everything in HERO for that reason.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Nope. It goes back to at least 4th.

Ok, thanks.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I have a character built around Multiple Power Attacks. It wasn't cheap. As a result' date=' he definitely does not have the highest damage class attacks in the group. It has been very effective upon occasion but is certainly not overpowering in its use (Works well on low defense opponents/Not very well against high defense opponents). It's design allows me to choose between an array of energy attacks, physical attacks, a flash, and images (not that I've used images in an mpa). There is a big endurance cost and the maneuver's modifiers. I can comfortably say, that Multiple Power Attacks, in and of themselves, are not imbalanced or cheesy. I don't think there is any reason to add advantages to MPAs or to disallow them because someone might find a "cheat." You'd have to disallow everything in HERO for that reason.[/quote']

If it's not too much trouble (as in transcribing from paper or other real work), could you post this character or the relevant power parts just as an example? I'm curious as to how it was done, as we just don't have anyone doing MPAs at all (I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that of our group most people have played HERO for a couple decades so they "think" in older rules terms).

 

PS/EDIT - FYI, as stated above, a lot of the additional barrier I place has to do with genre as I prefer/understand it, not an issue of "cheating" or (necessarily, though I think there's a genre link) balance.

[Agent X]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

If it's not too much trouble (as in transcribing from paper or other real work), could you post this character or the relevant power parts just as an example? I'm curious as to how it was done, as we just don't have anyone doing MPAs at all (I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that of our group most people have played HERO for a couple decades so they "think" in older rules terms).

 

PS/EDIT - FYI, as stated above, a lot of the additional barrier I place has to do with genre as I prefer/understand it, not an issue of "cheating" or (necessarily, though I think there's a genre link) balance.

Don't have him on me but he looks something like this:

 

EC: Celestial Powers

a) Flight

Force Field w/Life Support linked in (GM approval)

c) Starburst EB vs. ed

couple of other slots

 

Primary Multipower OAF

Starblast, no range energy blast

Starbolt, energy blast vs. ed

Force Bolt, energy blast vs. pd

Various Telekinetic Slots

Force Wall

 

Secondary Multipower OAF

Cosmic Flare, flash

Force Phantasms, images

Star Strike, hand attack

couple of other slots

 

Ranged

He can fire two energy blasts and a flash at the same time. One energy blast has to be against ed. The other can be either. I could throw TK in there somewhere but it's not really that effective to do so generally.

 

Melee

He can use the no range energy blast and the hand attack at the same time.

 

It has its advantages against low defense opponents and it allows me to figure out what works best against my opponents pretty quickly. However, it doesn't work as well against high defense opponents. Out of the five characters on the team, three have more damage classes in their single attacks and one has Find Weakness to help him out. Sometimes my character's versatility has proven decisive but it's someone else, more often than not, who has been the key to victory.

 

I really think folks are just afraid of MPA because it's new to them and they're already comfortable with a given style of play.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Zornwil, I'm currently running a VPP based character who MPA's fairly commonly. He';s caped at 12.5DC in aggregate, and most commonly uses fairly esoteric attacks.

 

He might carry, for example, a 5d6 AVLD (Flash Defense) and a 5d6 Flash. He can use the full AVLD (12.5 DC), or use a 3d6 AVLD (7.5 DC) + 5d6 Flash (5DC), or 4d6 AVLD (10 DC) + 2d6 Flash (2 DC).

 

I've also used a ranged Drain, any one stat, 1/2 END (3d6 = 60 AP, which I countbas 12 DC for this purpose) and carry a 4d6 Flash, so he can lower the Drain to 2d6 and use a 4d6 Flash.

 

He also once used a NR Drain + a punch (13 STR, but he was holding an object the villain seemed susceotible to).

 

The DC limit is rather artificial, and done out of an abundance of caution to maintain game balance. Within these paramneters, however, I don't think the character has proven unbalanced.

 

I'm surprised we don't see more characters designed to toss a little something extra on top, however. For example, a character with a 12d6 EB and a Multipower of 1d6 Ranged Drains, Flash, etc. woud seem fairly cost-effective, and able to deliver a little extra with each attack. Similarly, a "Swiss Army MP" with standard, rather than Ultra, slots would provide some interesting options to, say, trade off a couple dice EB for 2d6 Flash and a chance at blinding an opponent without wasting the shot entirely if he has enhanced senses or substantial flash defense.

 

I'd rather cap the DC's on the total atack than raise the AP on the powers, as your approach would seem to do. There's not much point having the ability to use 2 attacks at once if you have to pay 60 points and only get (effecively) 30 or 40 point attacks.

[Markdoc]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

MPAs have been around a lot longer than 5th Ed. - I remember debating them on the old AOL board. It's just that 5th Ed. was the first to give them official imprimateur.

 

As such we've had MPA'ing character's around in our games many times. The most abusive of these have generally been characters with VPPs or two multis. A VPP offers flexibility, but at the cost real power: it's hard to get a VPP up to a point where you do mongo damage - that's always been their major "real world" limitation.

 

Unless you MPA.

 

It doesn't have to be some gonzo power combination - if you have a -1 in limits on a power (not that hard to do) then you can do two full strength attacks. A 60 point gadget pool can churn out 2 4d6 RKAs. Ugh.

 

To me the argument "Yeah, but Batman can punch someone and throw his batarang at once" simply makes no impact. It could as easily be two actions, occuring close together as two simultaneous actions - after all would you allow an attack and an abort at the same time? You see that in single panels in cartoons too.

 

MPAs reek of munchkinism. The only good suggestion I have seen is Zorn's with the ice blast/iceblast plus entangle, but I prefer to model that with two powers (for examples, slots in a MP), a linked power or a power stunt.

 

cheers, Mark

[slaughterj]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

What do you think should be dropped?

 

I think a lot of powers, e.g., killing attack & energy blast, armor, force field, & damage resistance, etc. should be combined and make into a much leaner system. Then examples can be provided for making a gun, brass knuckles, fire blast, carapace, etc.

 

Similarly, to the extent that the system feels the need to rely on Transform for so much, it should have many examples on how to do things, like Create Object, etc., that it is used for as a fall-back. These examples should be in the main book.

 

Basically it should be clearer how to make characters like Green Lantern and Molecule Man.

[OddHat]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Well' date=' I could point out that, yes, Spider-Man essentially can evade a single SPD 4 character with no Area Attacks indefinitely. [/quote']

 

And we can argue about whether that is DCV or DFC all day. As things stand, a 1 point SPD advantage and a few levels with DFC and Breakfall make a character nearly invincible in a one-on-one confrontation, regardless of your foes CV. That is stupidly overpowered, and you have modified the rule in your own games accordingly.

 

Seriously, we've made it a house rule that, if you use Dive For Cover against a single-target attack, you must actually be able to reach some kind of cover in order for it to work. If you just dive one hex over, but are otherwise still in plain sight, the gunman will simply shoot you in your new location.

 

It's illogical to ban it against single-target attacks completely; if a gunman is firing at me, and I can dive behind the wall I'm standing next to and get out of his line-of-fire, then there's no reason that shouldn't work.

 

It is being able to dive to the ground and bouce up again, and again, and again, with no actual cover at all that makes it just plain silly.

 

But as written, I agree that it makes it a little too easy to use DfC to evade single-target attacks.

 

Yes.

 

'Course, all this only holds as long as there is only one attacker... If there are multiple attackers, using Dive For Cover to evade one of them is a desperation move indeed. (Which frankly brings up another point. Dive For Cover isn't hideously abused because the penalties make it a desperation move. Who in their right mind would DfC (cutting their DCV in half) instead of Dodging (increasing their DCV by 3 or more), unless they just absolutely couldn't allow themselves to be hit under any circumstances?)

 

Again, that only applies if you are facing multiple attackers. No matter how you slice it, it's still velveeta.

[Chuk]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I don't like how Transforms (e.g. man into frog) that you could buy as one power in 4th now have to be three (Transform man's mind into frog's mind, Transform man's spirit into frog's spirit, Transform man's body into frog's body). I guess in some cases you could get by with less, but we usually just make people pay for one.

[slaughterj]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I don't like how Transforms (e.g. man into frog) that you could buy as one power in 4th now have to be three (Transform man's mind into frog's mind' date=' Transform man's spirit into frog's spirit, Transform man's body into frog's body). I guess in some cases you could get by with less, but we usually just make people pay for one.[/quote']

 

I haven't looked at that in a long while, but certainly does seem excessive, compared to simply buying a killing attack.

[Fenixcrest]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Read the full Dive For Cover rules on p.260 of FRED' date=' specifically the last couple of paragraphs. It allows you to automatically avoid non-area attacks by diving 1 hex away. With a few Dex levels a character with Breakfall and a high enough SPD can avoid anything, so long as he holds his action until the bottom of the phase (another munchkin option). Yes, there are counters, yes, it's optional. It's still cheesy as hell.[/quote']

Well, the FAQ states that a character can't use Breakfall to prevent itself from becoming prone due to DFC, so it'd theoretically be prone for at least an instant. You just hold action until it is, and beat the bastard at its own game.

 

Personally, I want to get rid of Armor and Force Field. They could be easily replaced by "Extra Defenses" or something, and just have one version that's persistent and invisible, and one that isn't. There's some other powers that could be easily compressed like that, too, such as Killing Attack(ranged/HTH) and Flight/Gliding.

[MitchellS]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I don't like how Transforms (e.g. man into frog) that you could buy as one power in 4th now have to be three (Transform man's mind into frog's mind' date=' Transform man's spirit into frog's spirit, Transform man's body into frog's body). I guess in some cases you could get by with less, but we usually just make people pay for one.[/quote']

That's how you get Thunder-Frog stories.

[MitchellS]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Well, the FAQ states that a character can't use Breakfall to prevent itself from becoming prone due to DFC, so it'd theoretically be prone for at least an instant. You just hold action until it is, and beat the bastard at its own game.

 

Personally, I want to get rid of Armor and Force Field. They could be easily replaced by "Extra Defenses" or something, and just have one version that's persistent and invisible, and one that isn't. There's some other powers that could be easily compressed like that, too, such as Killing Attack(ranged/HTH) and Flight/Gliding.

I agree about the defenses.

 

Force Field = Armor with Costs End: -1/2

Extra Pd or Ed = Armor with Non-Resistant: -1/2

[OddHat]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Well' date=' the FAQ states that a character can't use Breakfall to prevent itself from becoming prone due to DFC, so it'd theoretically be prone for at least an instant. You just hold action until it is, and beat the bastard at its own game.[/quote']

 

That FAQ entry would have saved me some frustration at one point.

[slaughterj]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I agree about the defenses.

 

Force Field = Armor with Costs End: -1/2

Extra Pd or Ed = Armor with Non-Resistant: -1/2

 

I'd prefer something that started at a more basic level, e.g.:

 

1pt of PD or ED (not sure if I like those distinctions anymore either, but that's another topic) for 1pt - this way it is no different than buying PD/ED, and thus not another level of complexity

- Uses no END

- Provides no damage resistance (which may be impacted by how killing attack, energy blast, hand attack, etc. would work once combined into a "Damage" power)

- From there, apply lims for Costs END (-1/2) (i.e., non-resistant Force Field), or advantages (i.e., with the Costs END, add Resistant (+1/2), to get Force Field; or just add Resistant (+1/2) to get Armor)

[RDU Neil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I'd prefer something that started at a more basic level, e.g.:

 

1pt of PD or ED (not sure if I like those distinctions anymore either, but that's another topic) for 1pt - this way it is no different than buying PD/ED, and thus not another level of complexity

- Uses no END

- Provides no damage resistance (which may be impacted by how killing attack, energy blast, hand attack, etc. would work once combined into a "Damage" power)

- From there, apply lims for Costs END (-1/2) (i.e., non-resistant Force Field), or advantages (i.e., with the Costs END, add Resistant (+1/2), to get Force Field; or just add Resistant (+1/2) to get Armor)

 

Yeah... this is what is happening... they should just simplify it to have the basics under "Defense" and then have "Armor looks like..." and "Force Field looks like..." examples, so the work is still done, but the background mechanics are visible.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Don't have him on me but he looks something like this:

 

(snip)

 

It has its advantages against low defense opponents and it allows me to figure out what works best against my opponents pretty quickly. However, it doesn't work as well against high defense opponents. Out of the five characters on the team, three have more damage classes in their single attacks and one has Find Weakness to help him out. Sometimes my character's versatility has proven decisive but it's someone else, more often than not, who has been the key to victory.

 

I'm sure it's a team effort, though. I like the concept with this, very nice. Thanks for citing it.

 

I really think folks are just afraid of MPA because it's new to them and they're already comfortable with a given style of play.

 

I don't disagree, essentially, and like many things I may just completely roll back the current restrictions. Yours is a good example of something I think is wholly in-genre.

 

I don't worry too much about what I restrict in my house rules since my players know that I bow to concept anyway (so long as it's reasonable of course) and tend to make exceptions for the sake of concept/fun/interest, etc..

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Hee hee... we're getting back to the "Five Powers" model.

 

You could arguably build any of the other Powers in the book by starting with five basic Powers (Attack, Defense, Sense, Move, and Transform) and applying Adders, Advantages, and Limitations.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Zornwil, I'm currently running a VPP based character who MPA's fairly commonly. He';s caped at 12.5DC in aggregate, and most commonly uses fairly esoteric attacks.

 

He might carry, for example, a 5d6 AVLD (Flash Defense) and a 5d6 Flash. He can use the full AVLD (12.5 DC), or use a 3d6 AVLD (7.5 DC) + 5d6 Flash (5DC), or 4d6 AVLD (10 DC) + 2d6 Flash (2 DC).

 

I've also used a ranged Drain, any one stat, 1/2 END (3d6 = 60 AP, which I countbas 12 DC for this purpose) and carry a 4d6 Flash, so he can lower the Drain to 2d6 and use a 4d6 Flash.

 

He also once used a NR Drain + a punch (13 STR, but he was holding an object the villain seemed susceotible to).

 

The DC limit is rather artificial, and done out of an abundance of caution to maintain game balance. Within these paramneters, however, I don't think the character has proven unbalanced.

 

I'm surprised we don't see more characters designed to toss a little something extra on top, however. For example, a character with a 12d6 EB and a Multipower of 1d6 Ranged Drains, Flash, etc. woud seem fairly cost-effective, and able to deliver a little extra with each attack. Similarly, a "Swiss Army MP" with standard, rather than Ultra, slots would provide some interesting options to, say, trade off a couple dice EB for 2d6 Flash and a chance at blinding an opponent without wasting the shot entirely if he has enhanced senses or substantial flash defense.

 

I'd rather cap the DC's on the total atack than raise the AP on the powers, as your approach would seem to do. There's not much point having the ability to use 2 attacks at once if you have to pay 60 points and only get (effecively) 30 or 40 point attacks.

Thanks also for the example/info. The "swiss army knife" MPA is the kind of thing that would concern me, although, kind of as with AgentX' character, I can see that as part of a particular character's concept, just not a generalized one, or one I'd want to see generalized. Of course, that could be said of a LOT of game mechanics, so I wouldn't want to overstate that with MPA.

 

Not a bad idea to contain DCs as opposed to AP cost (I don't have the book but isn't there some sort of condition or limitation relating to DCs already? I can't recall the MPA rules well enough at all as we just haven't had occassion to use them), although the former gets trickier in battle/during play whereas the latter allows you to roll in play without considering that. Just a thought, not so much of a debate on the matter.

 

My primary concern is that in supers games I think MPAs don't "feel" common enough, although I'm aware of examples. I'd prefer to see them minimized but available. However, I may just eliminate the house rules at some point if only to try to encourage someone to use them AT ALL, I dunno. Until someone in the group has a desire or concept I probably won't think all that much more about it.

 

Although perhaps a good villain with MPAs...

[OddHat]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Hee hee... we're getting back to the "Five Powers" model.

 

You could arguably build any of the other Powers in the book by starting with five basic Powers (Attack, Defense, Sense, Move, and Transform) and applying Adders, Advantages, and Limitations.

 

Transform is just Attack with different end results.

 

I like my old Cool Stuff model:

 

We can use just one stat: Coolness. Your character's Coolness is all you really need to know anyway.

 

All non-gadget based powers will be replaced by one power: Cool Stuff.

 

All gadget based powers will be replaced by one power: Cool Junk.

 

All disadvantages will be replaced by one disadvantage: Funky Stuff. Note that while Funky Stuff is a disadvantage, it is almost implossible to be really Cool without also being kinda Funky.

 

Dice rolling will be replaced by arguments.

 

Say you want to roll play a fight between Batman and Superman. Who wins? It would go something like this:

 

"Batman wins! He's much cooler than Superman!"

 

"No way dude! Superman can do all kindsa Cool Stuff!"

 

"Dude, Superman's all funky! Way funky!"

 

"So what! He can do all the Cool Stuff!"

 

"Batman has his Cool Junk! His Cool Junk is way cooler than Superman's Cool Stuff! He can use it to take out Superman, 'cause Superman is Funky!"

 

(player and GM start punching each other)