Rapid Fire reality check

[Zeropoint]

I recently got a chance to do some shooting, and the results I got don't match the predictions of the Hero rules very well.

 

I'm DEX 10 at best, for 3 OCV, and have WF: Small Arms but no CSLs (at least, I didn't think so). I seriously doubt that my SPD is higher than 2.

 

I was shooting a Browning Hi-Power in .40 S&W (+0 OCV, +0 RMOD, 1.5d6 RKA, 10 shots) at a row of ten steel targets about the size of a human head and torso (0 DCV) at a range of about 22 feet (3 or 4 hexes: no range modifier).

 

By the book, that should give me a base 14- roll to hit a target, for a 90.7% hit rate.

 

I was able to hit all ten of them in 2-3 seconds on about half of my attempts. Over the course of ten or twelve attempts, I acheived a 90-95% hit rate.

 

Even if we assume that I started with a held action and took two phases back-to-back, I was engaging five targets per phase. By the Rapid Fire rules, that would incur a -8 OCV penalty, for a final to-hit roll of 6-, for a 9.3% hit rate.

 

So, what's up with that? Are the rules just off? Do I have seven or eight CSLs with Rapid Fire that I didn't know about (or with Hi-Powers? with pistols?)? Should there be some kind of "out-of-combat bonus" to represent increased accuracy in less stressful situations? Maybe an "all-out attack" would be in order, reflecting the fact that I wasn't trying to dodge at all?

 

Or should I just accept that the rules are for combat situations, and should not be expected to accurately simulate non-combat actions?

 

Zeropoint

[Susano]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

Or should I just accept that the rules are for combat situations, and should not be expected to accurately simulate non-combat actions?

 

I'd go with this.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

And here I was hoping I was the next Harbinger of Justice. . .

[Alibear]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

And here I was hoping I was the next Harbinger of Justice. . .

 

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

And here I was hoping I was the next Harbinger of Justice. . .

 

No, you're the old one, I'm the new one: I can't shoot at all.

[Blackjack]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

I recently got a chance to do some shooting, and the results I got don't match the predictions of the Hero rules very well.

 

(snip)

 

Or should I just accept that the rules are for combat situations, and should not be expected to accurately simulate non-combat actions?

 

Zeropoint

 

Zeropoint,

 

As you said, the rules are for combat situations. Also keep in mind that the rules are designed for two objectives. The first is a modicum of reality, but the second and more pressing is game playability and balance. I have seen an RPG that required taking square roots to calculate the damage from explosives because it produced a "more realistic" result! Sometimes you have to sacrifice _ pure realism_ for playability.

 

Clearly, the ability to attack more than once in a phase requires a significant penality to prevent overuse. The limits applied to Rapid Fire, Sweep, etc. are logical; consistant with other, similar rules; discourage overuse of the manuever; and most of all, are EASY to apply.

 

Finally - nice shooting.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

Also, it is MUCH easier to fire in a noncombat situation. You aren't trying to dodge enemy fire, you aren't scared. You aren't moving.

 

When I was in the army I could put 3 or 4 bullets into a 2 inch circle at 500 yards EASILY.

 

But I would miss that same target 4 times if it was shooting back at me.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

I'd say it represents a non-combat situation. I've never tried to shoot anything that shoots back, so I can't speak from experience, but I believe anyone who tells me a practice target and a target that shoots back are totally different things.

 

 

Of course, since I'm AR and must break it all down into rules anyway...

 

I'd also grant you a Set bonus against all targets due to a non-combat situation (one in which you aren't in any danger, potential or otherwise). Also, since you mentioned you are proficient in firearms, I'd say you have at least a SPD 3. As a general rule, anyone trained in any kind of combat has developed the instincts to move a little quicker.

 

On top of that, I might even double your SPD for non-combat situations. I went into the fridge for dinner earlier. In under 12 seconds I had located and grabbed a package of hot dogs, jar of relish, jar of mustard, bottle of ketcup and two cans of Dr. Good Guy and in a seperate cabinet I grabbed a bag of buns. That's seven items, each of a size granting them a DCV bonus despite that fact they are motionless. At best, I have a SPD 4 (most likely 3). So in each of my other phases I would have had to Sweep Grab at least two items (most likely 3) and would have at least a -4 OCV penalty against targets with a DCV equal to or higher than my OCV (my DEX is at best a 14). But hey, I didn't miss a single one, and some of the stuff wasn't were I put it (damn roommates). So I figure my SPD is doubled while out of combat. Not that it matters, since SPD is only used while in combat (or when running really fast).

[paigeoliver]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

Also, you REALLY want an approximation of Hero?

 

Then do this, start 40 feet away from the spot you will fire from, run to it, raise your weapon and fire with no pauses.

 

Do that and see how many hits you get.

 

Not only is the rifle range a noncombat situation, you also have the advantage (probably), of bracing and extra time.

[Kristopher]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

Also, you REALLY want an approximation of Hero?

 

Then do this, start 40 feet away from the spot you will fire from, run to it, raise your weapon and fire with no pauses.

 

Do that and see how many hits you get.

 

Not only is the rifle range a noncombat situation, you also have the advantage (probably), of bracing and extra time.

 

There are shooting competitions that involve a lot of what you're describing, as to be more realistic. The competitors still hit the targets, and in quick succession, as they move quickly and defensively through the course. They don't Set, Brace, or take extra time.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

I have done that as well, my accuracy fell to a fraction of what it is on a traditional range.

 

Of course anybody can improve at anything with practice.

[Old Man]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

Do I have seven or eight CSLs with Rapid Fire that I didn't know about (or with Hi-Powers? with pistols?)

 

That is also quite possible. How long have you been shooting? How often do you practice with those pistols?

[Zeropoint]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

Finally - nice shooting.

 

Thanks! In all honesty, at least part of my reason for posting this was to brag a little.

 

That is also quite possible. How long have you been shooting? How often do you practice with those pistols?

 

I don't exactly remember when I started shooting, but I would guess it's been about fifteen years now--Dad got me started pretty young. However, I haven't been practicing regularly or even frequently. I put two magazines through the Hi-Power on Thanksgiving weekend, when I got it, but aside from that, I hadn't touched a real gun for at least a year (the Navy's keeping me away from my guns). That's why I'm reluctant to assign myself any CSLs.

 

As far as the specific model of pistol, my Hi-Power is the first I've ever shot. I was surprised that I did that well, really. On the other hand, one reason I picked the Hi-Power was that it fits my hand very well, almost as though it were made specifically for me. That seems to help a lot when shooting "instinctively".

 

I'm sure that if I were out of breath, had quarts of adrenaline flowing through me, and were trying to dodge, I wouldn't be doing so well!

 

Zeropoint

[Zeropoint]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

As you said, the rules are for combat situations. Also keep in mind that the rules are designed for two objectives. The first is a modicum of reality, but the second and more pressing is game playability and balance. I have seen an RPG that required taking square roots to calculate the damage from explosives because it produced a "more realistic" result! Sometimes you have to sacrifice _ pure realism_ for playability.

 

Clearly, the ability to attack more than once in a phase requires a significant penality to prevent overuse. The limits applied to Rapid Fire, Sweep, etc. are logical; consistant with other, similar rules; discourage overuse of the manuever; and most of all, are EASY to apply.

 

So true. We simulationists tend to forget that this is a GAME and it should ultimately be judged on how well it PLAYS.

 

The square root for explosives--was that GURPS?

 

Zeropoint

[Boll Weevil]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

One possibility that I am suprised no one else has suggested is that you simply are the chosen one. One needs only to look at your avatar. Those hands were made to hold a gun.

[gewing]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

Yes, but IPSC competitors DO have lots of skill levels, and special guns, usually.

 

 

 

 

There are shooting competitions that involve a lot of what you're describing' date=' as to be more realistic. The competitors still hit the targets, and in quick succession, as they move quickly and defensively through the course. They don't Set, Brace, or take extra time.[/quote']

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

I don't see the point of the comparison. HERO System was never intended to accurately reflect reality! Having some explicit rules / modifiers for noncombat situations would be a nice idea though.

[Old Man]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

 

I don't exactly remember when I started shooting, but I would guess it's been about fifteen years now--Dad got me started pretty young. However, I haven't been practicing regularly or even frequently. I put two magazines through the Hi-Power on Thanksgiving weekend, when I got it, but aside from that, I hadn't touched a real gun for at least a year (the Navy's keeping me away from my guns). That's why I'm reluctant to assign myself any CSLs.

 

 

Last time I checked character points don't go away with time

[Blackjack]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

So true. We simulationists tend to forget that this is a GAME and it should ultimately be judged on how well it PLAYS.

 

Exactly. Well said.

 

The square root for explosives--was that GURPS?

 

Zeropoint

 

No. It was a game I saw being test-played at a convention years ago. I don't remember the name of it, but I don't think it ever got off the ground simply because it wasn't very playable.

[Silbeg]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

back to the original discussion... I would assume that you were braced and set (helping with range penalties), and you were probably taking extra time (at least to set up the first shot).

 

As for the rest... the target had, at most, a 0 DCV (could be considered less... how was your spread)? It certainly wasn't trying to avoid being hit!

[zornwil]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

I don't see the point of the comparison. HERO System was never intended to accurately reflect reality! Having some explicit rules / modifiers for noncombat situations would be a nice idea though.

 

 

So true. We simulationists tend to forget that this is a GAME and it should ultimately be judged on how well it PLAYS.

 

The square root for explosives--was that GURPS?

 

Zeropoint

 

I want to add on here the obvious but EXTREMELY important distinction that HERO (like many RPGs that are "universal") is intended to simulate HEROIC FICTION within a game setting. So the question really becomes, is Rapid Fire a mechanic that reasonably simulates an action in heroic fiction literature/movies/what-have-you.

 

I would add, as a tangent, furthermore (IMNSHO on this, this is not a HERO ruling/orthodoxy) the question must also be asked, does it do so across more than one distinct/contained genre. I have come to the conclusion that we should ensure the core rule book applies to at least 2 or more genres. If a power or ability is ONLY used in a SINGLE genre, it should truly be in the genre book. I'm not sure anything in the book is really that way, anyway, save a few examples, and examples of course are warranted that way. But I think from DOJ/HERO Games' standpoint that should be the measuring stick and I think ultimately it would be worthwhile, for v6, to prune the book accordingly, if indeed it can be so pruned. I don't think this leads back to having the rules too scattered as, first, the rules already are scattered in this light (take a look at Fantasy HERO, lots of cool stuff in there, but it all applies only to that genre or at best cross-overs to that genre, such as Buffy which is a crossover (in my view) between Dark Champions and Fantasy HERO). Second, if it only applies to a genre, by definition, it's not "scattered" as it's too specialized then for a "universal" RPG system - IF (importantly) said mechanism is simply being replicated from the core rules. Again, most if not all of the innovations in Fantasy HERO meet this bar - the addition of Arcane Defense is based on the core book and the core book's rules on adding new elements. It does not require the introduction of anything truly to the core system.

 

Of course in context of this discussion the tangent paragraph could be thrown out...

[Lupus]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

Exactly. Well said.

 

 

 

No. It was a game I saw being test-played at a convention years ago. I don't remember the name of it, but I don't think it ever got off the ground simply because it wasn't very playable.

Twilight 2000 did this. Couldn't have been that game?

 

(Come to think of it, isn't squre root itself not accurate? Wouldn't you need a cube root to accurately model a three-dimensional explosion?)

 

(I don't mind games that don't attempt to be totally realistic, like Hero. I do mind games that try to be absolutely real, yet fail miserably.

[Blackjack]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

Twilight 2000 did this. Couldn't have been that game?

 

(Come to think of it, isn't squre root itself not accurate? Wouldn't you need a cube root to accurately model a three-dimensional explosion?)

 

(I don't mind games that don't attempt to be totally realistic, like Hero. I do mind games that try to be absolutely real, yet fail miserably.

 

It may have been Twilight 2000... Thanks!

[Zeropoint]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

(Come to think of it, isn't squre root itself not accurate? Wouldn't you need a cube root to accurately model a three-dimensional explosion?)

 

No. The blast energy moves through a solid sphere over time (obviously) but at any given instant, the energy is concentrated in the spherical surface of the shock wave. That surface will expand as the square of the radius, and the energy density, and therefore the energy delivered to a target, will vary with the inverse square of distance from the explosion.

 

Wait a minute, where does the square root come in? To calculate the effects of an inverse-square law, you divide by the square of distance, not the square root.

 

Was the square root involved with calculating the damage from the amount of explosive?

 

Zeropoint

[Short Shot]

Re: Rapid Fire reality check

 

I'm decent with a pistol, better than most people I see at the range. Slow fire, I can put 10 rounds of .45 in an inch and a half at 20 ft, an inch on a good day. Doing double taps my group opens to about 4 inches. Under combat conditions, group size usually doubles.

 

Now, picture a T shape on someone's face, lines being about 2 inches wide, the top of the T going across the eyes, the vertical part going down the nose, mouth, chin, etc. According to the self defense class I took, to be sure of stopping someone with a pistol bullet to the head, you have to hit them in that T. Below the T area you are in the area of sinus', painful but not necessarily fatal. Above the T there is supposedly a good chance of the bullet being deflected to a large extent and preventing the kill shot.

 

Now try this simple drill. Have a friend stand about 20 feet away and do a bit of head bobbing he is getting into the music. I'm not talking major, maybe a couple inches to either side. Point your finger at him and try to keep it in the T area. You may be suprised at how hard it is to keep on target.

 

Slow fire, my group would be 3 inches, my double taps 8 ". On a target that is moving even a bit, no way am I going to chance a head shot with any expectation of hitting consistently.