assault Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? I don't even like Superman's overall concept, and don't get me started on Martian Manhunter. The Martian Manhunter's concept is simple enough: he's the Silver Age, science fiction based, equivalent of the Spectre. Basically, he's a detective with scary mystical powers. Of course he usually isn't portrayed like that these days, but that's how he started. Would it bother you if a player came up with a detective who used magic to help solve crimes? Because that's what the Spectre and the MM do, although the MM doesn't admit it's magic. For what it's worth, almost all of my characters tend to have martial arts, even if it's only cinematic brawling, irrespective of their other powers, or even if they have other powers. In particular, my bricks rely heavily on Offensive Strike as their main way of doing damage. And so do most of my energy projectors, since "a right to the jaw" is cooler than just zapping someone. Oh yeah, and so do my mentalists... Of course, I also think that Air Wave and Jimmy Olsen are playable characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Arrow Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Unfortunately, this example is completely backwards. Black Canary was a non-powered martial artist character who was given an energy blast twenty-five years after her first appearance! So, you technically should have written: "For example, say you built Black Canary. You could say that she's a Martial Artist, why does she need Energy Blast?" Silliness aside, your main point is absolutely correct. I was thinking of Black Canary II, but I think her continuity got very muddled, didn't it? I meant the current DC universe BC II, not the one who was once her own mother (or whatever it was). However, the example does work the other way round, in fact it probably works even better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSword Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? I was thinking of Black Canary II, but I think her continuity got very muddled, didn't it? I meant the current DC universe BC II, not the one who was once her own mother (or whatever it was). However, the example does work the other way round, in fact it probably works even better! Not to get muddled up in the comicbook details (cause I don't know 'em), but I would consider the current Black Canary to be a martial artist first, who just happens to have her Canary Scream. I think current Canary had it, lost it, got it back. But you are right, imagine the GM, "You are the best martial artist on the team, and one of the top in the campaign world, now you want a EB that will cause naseau and disorientation to everyone that hears it?!?!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Not to get muddled up in the comicbook details (cause I don't know 'em)' date=' but I would consider the current Black Canary to be a martial artist first, who just happens to have her Canary Scream. I think current Canary had it, lost it, got it back. [/quote'] Correct in current continuity. The history is that BC was a golden age character who was a skilled combatant/detective (ie a normal person with unusual dress sense). In the 60's she came back with the rest of the Justice Society, and had a "utility amulet" added to her repertoire, as well as extensive skills in judo. In the '70s, someone decided the JLA needed a female member (Wonder Woman being off the team at the time) and BC was transplanted to Earth-1 to join the JLA. Her husband was killed off, and she picked up the sonic scream mysteriously (and with very little control). In the '80's, someone got the great idea that she was really the origina;l BC's daughter, born with the Cry and held in stasis between the two Earths. The mother died from aftereffects of the conflict which killed her husband, and this (and the fact the new Canary was her daughter) was kept from the JLA, and the new BC, by magic. With the Crisis restructuring, we got the present mother (golden ager)/daughter (silver age martial artist with canary cry). Then she was tortured and lost the canary cry, and subsequently regained it through immersion in the Lazarus Pit. Who says 60 years of continuity has to be difficult? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rikathos Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Falcon all the way. And if we are going to rate Winged heroes lets not forget Nighthawk(Defenders version) and Red Raven. I'm sure there is another Winged Marvel hero I am forgetting..Mimic? Nah technically not winged on his own....Sub Mariner?..Technically winged. And although I love the flat headed Atlantean-halfbreed The ankle wings..silly. Which makes me wonder why an Atlantean has wings on his ankles but then I digress. Its Comics! Is There anyone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSword Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Who says 60 years of continuity has to be difficult? The problem was that DC put it over 60 years of publishing. Other companies are much more efficient and would have put that into a 4 issue miniseries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Falcon all the way. Blue Falcon? and DynoMutt!?! They RoXXoRd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Blue Falcon? and DynoMutt!?! They RoXXoRd They what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? They what? Kristopher is not l33t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Kristopher is not l33t. You're right, I'm not -- I actually learned the English language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caris Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? You're right' date=' I'm not -- I actually learned the English language.[/quote'] Try this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Let's not derail this thread any further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackerjacker Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Angel and simmilar characters can simply be athletic/martial arts capable characters with flight as well. And winged fliers in comicbooks tend to have much more control and acrobatic manueverability than normal superfliers. So....you could say that Angel isnt much different than Spiderman, as far as his only big powers involve acrobatics and movement without involving superspeed or teleportation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? The core problem with Angel is mainly that the power level of the other four original X-Men, not to mention the second team have been creeping steadily upwards. And Angel doesn't have any obvious attacks or defenses that can be raised easily. The whole Death business, while a butchery on many levels, was an attempt to make him somewhat relevent. So is the Magik's sword or healing blood business. Of the attempts, Death was the best attempt. Angel's wings were powered up and remained the focus of his mutation. The main problem was that they gave him a completely different appearance and dragged him a bit too far away from his roots as a character. My powerup for Angel would start with him retconned to have innate telekinesis focused internal to his wings as the main motivating force for his flight. It wouldn't have invalidated any history since he could never use his TK outside of his wings. Xavier, Warren and others knew about his innate TK but since it couldn't help him do anything but fly, no one talked about it. Then I boost the TK but leave it internal to his wings. The first effect is his top speed rises to the point he can race the Blackbird. His wings become charged with telekinetic power, reinforcing his feathers. His wings become close to invulnerable to attack. He's not a full brick though. Only his wings are invulnerable to attack. He can probably smack things with them for a fair amount of damage as well. No blue skin or razor feathers needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakboy6117 Posted January 8, 2005 Report Share Posted January 8, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? lol for some reason mutant for hire your upgrade makes me think of BATFINK warren worthing ton smashing into a warehouse full of thugs with guns enshroduing him self in his wings as they let rip and then as they cease fire and the smoke clears appearing from between them and saying "You cannot harm me for MY WINGS ARE LIKE A SHIELD OF STEEL!!!!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just A Guy Name Posted January 9, 2005 Report Share Posted January 9, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? lol for some reason mutant for hire your upgrade makes me think of BATFINK..Hah! And his faithful sidekick, Karate! "Your bullets cannot harm me..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rage Posted January 9, 2005 Report Share Posted January 9, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? I hope I didn't offend you. Shh... He helped write it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magmarock Posted January 9, 2005 Report Share Posted January 9, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Joining the party late, folks. My comments: Superman was originally not a team hero. As a solo hero, he needs to have the various powers to handle all the various situations, not having so much as a sidekick for back up (I don't count the normals as sidekicks, more like DNPCs). He is a poor example of a "tight" concept, because of this. Groups like the early X-Men were perfect for tight concepts because they relied on each other to fill in the gaps. That's what teamwork is all about. ~~~ It is perfectly reasonable for Angel's wings to have a significantly larger amount of strength than his arms or legs- Warren uses his wings far more than any of his other limbs. This could be bought as additional STR only for lifting additional weight in flight OR the GM and Player can come up with a system where the more weight carried will reduce the inches of flight, cost more END, etc. It would be nitpicking to claim his arms need the extra STR, too, and would force the character out of concept, IMO. ~~~ I agree that Cypher concept done in current times would be much more effective and with a much farther reach. I didn't read much of the earlier stuff, but I did like the concept of Douglock. ~~~ I thought that Jean Grey was the worst concept ever. Boring, dumb, and did I mention boring? Oh, and redundant, too (they should have called her Redundant Girl). They should have stuck with only TK based powers on her and expanded on that. With Prof X, they didn't need her weaker mental powers, in the group. ~~~ I think the initial allure of Shadowcat was the inexperienced newbie being thrust into a group of experienced heroes. By sheer luck and determination, she managed to pull the older heroes' collective asses out of the fire. They kept her around for it. I wonder if anyone here has ever tried playing an underpowered newbie who just joined an experienced group. What would that be like? ~~~ Comic book time sucks. It is confusing as all get-out. But the thing to remember is this: Some stories are progressive, others are not. Some stories are meant to show the growth of the characters, while others prefer to maintain a status quo and even though time passes, the characters always remain the same. Once you identify what type of story you are reading and accept it, then comic book time won't mean a darned-thing anymore. Personally, I prefer progressive stories where the characters learn, change and grow in powers. This is why I don't read Superman comics. Superman has all his powers already and all of the challenges will be external in nature. It's like no matter how much experience the hero gains, he'll never get a chance to expand and become something better than he already is. Sad. I find that people who prefer to read comics that have such rock-steady (and stagnant, IMO) characters, are least likely to enjoy a progressive campaign that allows growth and development. I remember several years back a friend offered to run our campaign for a while. He allowed us a larger amount of XPs to build our PCs with, but then warned us to build the characters as we envisioned them as experienced, because he'd be awarding very little XPs during the game. I had a hard time building my "completed" character, because I like to have some sense of progression as the game moves along and so my PC turned out too flawed for the game. It was frustrating for me to not be able to fix the PC's flaws through spending XPs, like we'd done in so many games before. That's when I made the correlation between campaign types and comic book types. I realized this friend preferred the comics with heroes that were already "complete" and would never change. Woah, it's late and I'm closing now, even though I have so much more to say on the subject. Last comment: I've never played in a low level campaign where each PC was a one-trick pony. But I bet it would be fun. Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st barbara Posted January 10, 2005 Report Share Posted January 10, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? To "Freakboy" "Jubilee" is sort of like "St Barbara's" little sister ! "St B" shoots fireworks too, nice multicoloured umpteen D6 area effect fireballs of fireworks ! Oddly enough, when I created the character I had completly forgotten about "Jubilee" ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st barbara Posted January 10, 2005 Report Share Posted January 10, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? To "Magmarok" I never had any problem with the concept of "Marvel Girl", just the way she was written in the early days . Typical Dialogue ; "Oh I have a headache, I don't know how much longer I can keep this feather aloft with my powers ". Humbug ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted January 10, 2005 Report Share Posted January 10, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? If I were to give an award for a 'Huh?!' character concept in this manner, Angel wouldn't have been it. Flying's useful, especially when you add in all his other avian characteristics (keen eyes, almost silent gliding) ... which makes him a damn fine scout and spy. No ... mine would have to go to Matter-Eater Lad. (Alternately, Arm-Fall-Off Boy, but he was designed for a comedy campaign.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightray Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 If I were to give an award for a 'Huh?!' character concept in this manner, Angel wouldn't have been it ... No ... mine would have to go to Matter-Eater Lad. Pshaw. Shows what you know. What's going to happen when you got Angel on your team instead of Matter-Eater Lad -- and you have to get rid of the Miracle Machine? Or you're trapped with Sugyn puffing into the giant pipe organ in Evillo's Hell? Angel's wings and megabucks gonna help you then? I think not! (although I'll give you Arm-Fall-Off Boy) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakboy6117 Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? yeah jubilee is designed as a little sister not powerful enough to really hold her own. not enough charecter advancment to make her into something worthwhile. at least shadowcat has had constant change and improvment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? The lamest concept? How about the android Captain Marvel whose main power was to split into pieces at his joints? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just A Guy Name Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? The lamest concept? How about the android Captain Marvel whose main power was to split into pieces at his joints? Heh, I actually read those comics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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