OIF for Powered Armor why?

[Lord Beavis]

The Obvious Inaccessible Focus limitation for Powered Armor (or for that matter any type of OIF) seems a bit high at -1/2.

 

I think this is one of the most over used (abused) limitation. Remember:

 

" A limitation that doesn't limit the character isn't worth any bonus"

 

Has anyone ever attacked the powered armor suit instead of the guy wearing it. Wouldn't that make more sense. In some cases yes, others no.

 

If breakable, the DEF of the all Focus (Foci) is the highest power (with the focus limitation)/5. A gun with 10d6 EB is DEF 10. If the focus (as in powered armor) can use the PD or ED provided as DEF if higher. You have to do 1 more Body than the DEF to penetrate the armor. Then you destroy one Power. (by the way a multi-power counts as one power).

 

I just don't see don't see how taking the OIF limitation for powered armor is a limitation? Where is the limitation???

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

I just don't see don't see how taking the OIF limitation for powered armor is a limitation? Where is the limitation???

It's wherever the GM decides it is. It isn't always worn. It can be destroyed. It can be taken away. Etc.

 

If the GM doesn't want to exploit these factors, then it may not be a Limitation in that particular game (or may be a lesser Limitation, such as Only In Heroic Identity).

[MitchellS]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

If the player is knocked out the powered armor can be removed. Your game never has players knocked out?

 

If you attack the armor you can break items. I see Defender's armor provides 15 pd/ed defense. Do a 16 body attack to him and break one power. Is 16 body hard to do? No. It's a 12d6 attack with a haymaker maneuver. Defender's armor only has 6 powers. You have as much chance of disabling the multipower or end battery as you do the search light. It seems fairly limiting to me.

 

And as Derek said. If the GM never removes the powered armor or never allows it to break, then it's not worth a limitation. Most GMs are not so easy though. Not in my experience anyway.

[Sean Waters]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

OIF at -1/2 should mean that the powers in the armour are not available about 1/3 of the time (from memory). There isn't a game running where a hero doesn't have his power armour one game in 3, so many GMs allow Only In Hero ID for power armour rather than OIF, which at least only gives a -1/4.

 

However, what is less easy to quantify is this: if you have one minor power with OIF and lose it temporarily, no real biggie.

 

If most of your powers are in an OIF and you can't use it even 1 game in 20, it is a major problem and you are likely to spend a lot of time guarding against the eventuality, so the 1/2 is 1 time in 3 logic doesn't work equally of all applications of the limitation.

 

Are you GMing or playing a OIF character, or just sounding off (a perfectly valid use of your time, i might add)?

 

(Someone on this thread, at some point, is going to suggest that power armour should be a disadvantage and not a limitation. Ignore them and they will go away...)

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

No, OIF means that it is Focus, that can be noticed that can be taken away if someone is given the appropriate amount of time. It also means that the armor is not just waiting for him if he needs it, it means he needs to go to where ever he keeps his Foci and get it.

 

Only in Heroic Identity is not a big enough disadvantage for anyone who has armor or equipment that can be taken away.

 

Just my opinion.

 

John

[OddHat]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

Obey your dog!

[MitchellS]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

There isn't a game running where a hero doesn't have his power armour one game in 3

The fact that a player might have disabled, broken, taken away, or not with him armor 1/3 of the time is a real possiblity. As I said above, it's not that difficult to disable part of Defender's armor. A 2.5d6 AP RKA will do it, and that's not anything more than a 60 AP attack.

 

Each type of armor needs to be based on the special effects. Black Paladin's magic powered armor can be removed because it's just normal armor with magic [OIF]. Ironman's armor can only be removed only by someone with exceptional skill and it would take a long time [OIHID]. Dr. Destroyer's are will die on him [No limitation].

[sbarron]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

However, what is less easy to quantify is this: if you have one minor power with OIF and lose it temporarily, no real biggie.

 

If most of your powers are in an OIF and you can't use it even 1 game in 20, it is a major problem and you are likely to spend a lot of time guarding against the eventuality, so the 1/2 is 1 time in 3 logic doesn't work equally of all applications of the limitation.

I disagree. I think 1 time in 3 (buy the way, where did these numbers come from?), if that the standard, should happen regardless of the PC guarding against it, and regardless of how much his character is screwed as a result. If you put a limitation on all of your powers, you are asking to occassionally have big trouble. That's the price you pay for the extra powers.

 

I played in a game with my high school buddies for years where powered armor characters ruled the game. None of the GMs ever really[/b[] enforced limitations, and as a result, the powered armor guy was working with more way points than everyone else.

 

If the character takes a limit, the GM has to limit him, or the point balancing act just doesn't work.

[MitchellS]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

buy the way' date=' where did these numbers come from?[/quote']

5E, pages 194 & 195.

[Sean Waters]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

The fact that a player might have disabled, broken, taken away, or not with him armor 1/3 of the time is a real possiblity. As I said above, it's not that difficult to disable part of Defender's armor. A 2.5d6 AP RKA will do it, and that's not anything more than a 60 AP attack.

 

Each type of armor needs to be based on the special effects. Black Paladin's magic powered armor can be removed because it's just normal armor with magic [OIF]. Ironman's armor can only be removed only by someone with exceptional skill and it would take a long time [OIHID]. Dr. Destroyer's are will die on him [No limitation].

 

 

I have to disagree;take your average PowerArmourHero: power armour with a number of other powers. Even if one or two powers are targetted and taken down every game, it will be rare indeed that the armour (power) is taken away in combat as it goes last, and that gets the same bonus as the rest. In fact for power armour, unless you build powers designed to damage focii, damage to armour systems is often vary rare: the defences make taking BODY a rarity. Of course this means that some types of OIF are far easier to disable than others (your flash defence goggles and your armoured helmet both cost the same points, but the goggles are far easier to disable with damage).

 

As far as taking armour off the unconscious body of the hero goes, this too is a rarity unless the whole team has gone down: who can spend a couple of phases not concentrating on the rest of the team to strip Defender down to his underoos?

 

I reckon unique armour is probably worth more: it gets taken away you need to get it back to use it. in your example, that would apply to Black Paladin; Iron man could just fire up another suit, but that is only as an intellectual exercise, really: If The Blonde Beetle has just managed to keep her armour for 12 straight sessions and The Evil Screwdriver has just got her out of it, are you really going to have her chase him for six sessions to get the armour back? No, it would be boring for the rest of the players, so it isn't going to happen.

 

Having said that, I have no problem with focus cost because I do think that not having the armour at all one time in 10 or 20 is a major problem, and spending half your time guarding against loss of the armour requires role playing, which should be rewarded: not all limitations have or should have direct combat consequences, but if there is a limitation it should force you to do things you would not otherwise do.

[incrdbil]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

I played in a game with my high school buddies for years where powered armor characters ruled the game. None of the GMs ever really[/b[] enforced limitations, and as a result, the powered armor guy was working with more way points than everyone else.

 

 

So the rules have to be changed, because your old GM's couldn't, or wouldn't, enforce the rules?

 

Focus is a limit; the approiximation of how limiting in terms of time is just that, an approximation. Just because you have an OIF just doesnt mean the GM should have a stopwatch to make sure you dont have access to your powers for 33% of an encounters--just that he brings home the problems of focus enough so as to make the non focus guys feel happy, and occur in a way to accurately balance out the extra effctiveness the player gets from a focus--qualitative, not quantitative balance is the goal.

 

You could have 5 average games where the focus character is in the fray and not deprived of a power, but then having one game where he's spending the entire fight 'naked', in danger, and the team underpowered is definitely going to stick in his mind and make him envy Captain Inherent Power.

 

Every game can feature minor complications over not having a place to hide his armor, or to change into it--every game a character plays with a breakable focus is a game where the GM can decide to have an NPC attack the focus and damage it. Yes, if the GM never has a villain try to take the focus, never has the hero caught without it, then the player is getting a freebie. He's also being cheated out of good role playing opportunities.

 

Is that a problem with a mechanic for the rest of us? No, its a problem in that particualr campaign with the GM who can't balance the game properly.

[Sean Waters]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

Defences gained from armour are often as good or better than defences gained from powers.

 

2 points:

 

1. Captain Inherent Powers will be taking damage before Captain Power Armour anyway, so the fact that CPA's hologram projector is playing up may be of little comfort when CIP is bleeding to death, and

 

2. If you can get BODY damage through the armour you've probably better off taking out the squidgy thing inside the armour than the armour systems.

 

Two words though: armour virus.

 

Two more: remote control (remember what The Joker did to Batman's car in the film?)

 

As has been pointed out, and as I have said, combat utility is often seen as the whole point and it ISN'T. The point is to enjoy participating in the game, and if CPA is dominating to the detriment of the other player's enjoyment, there is a problem. Mind you I've played in games where there are wildly different effective power levels between characters (even though they had the same points) but because everyone was clearly delineated their roles, and there was not much overlap, no one really minded. CPA may be able to take on half the team in combat, but so long as he uses that to keep off the villains and it is The Timid Stoat who (heroically) pulls the plug on the Doomsday Device, everyone is happy.

[Mortuorum`]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

The fact that a player might have disabled' date=' broken, taken away, or not with him armor 1/3 of the time is a real possiblity. As I said above, it's not that difficult to disable part of Defender's armor. A 2.5d6 AP RKA will do it, and that's not anything more than a 60 AP attack. [/quote']

 

I had a battlesuit Villain ("Battlelash") whose motivation was taking out other powered armor characters. A HKA with Armor Piercing and Penetrating will make short work of any powered armor suit... and usually the person wearing it.

[sbarron]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

So the rules have to be changed, because your old GM's couldn't, or wouldn't, enforce the rules?

 

Focus is a limit; the approiximation of how limiting in terms of time is just that, an approximation. Just because you have an OIF just doesnt mean the GM should have a stopwatch to make sure you dont have access to your powers for 33% of an encounters--just that he brings home the problems of focus enough so as to make the non focus guys feel happy, and occur in a way to accurately balance out the extra effctiveness the player gets from a focus--qualitative, not quantitative balance is the goal.

 

You could have 5 average games where the focus character is in the fray and not deprived of a power, but then having one game where he's spending the entire fight 'naked', in danger, and the team underpowered is definitely going to stick in his mind and make him envy Captain Inherent Power.

 

Every game can feature minor complications over not having a place to hide his armor, or to change into it--every game a character plays with a breakable focus is a game where the GM can decide to have an NPC attack the focus and damage it. Yes, if the GM never has a villain try to take the focus, never has the hero caught without it, then the player is getting a freebie. He's also being cheated out of good role playing opportunities.

 

Is that a problem with a mechanic for the rest of us? No, its a problem in that particualr campaign with the GM who can't balance the game properly.

I'm not sure where you think I disagree with you. I didn't claim there needed to be any rule changes. Your point above is almost the same as mine. My GM not enforcing the limitation was the problem, not the mechanic. That's what I said.

 

So just to be clear, I think characters should be limited by the limitations they take. I'd rather do it with big "lose your armor" problems, but I'm just as happy with your generally worrying them about losing powers or armor. So long as they pay the price for thier limit, I'm happy.

[Lord Beavis]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

If you attack the armor you can break items. I see Defender's armor provides 15 pd/ed defense. Do a 16 body attack to him and break one power. Is 16 body hard to do? No. It's a 12d6 attack with a haymaker maneuver. Defender's armor only has 6 powers. You have as much chance of disabling the multipower or end battery as you do the search light. It seems fairly limiting to me.

 

True, but you have to land that Haymaker. He's not just going to stand there and wait. It is a realistic maneuver, but not seen in quite some time.

 

It's wherever the GM decides it is. It isn't always worn. It can be destroyed. It can be taken away. Etc.

 

So without the OIF limitation, you are saying Powered Armor is:

Always Worn....huh???

Cannot be destroyed......Say what???

Cannot be taken away....what you talking about Willis?

 

If the GM doesn't want to exploit these factors, then it may not be a Limitation in that particular game (or may be a lesser Limitation, such as Only In Heroic Identity).

 

True, if the GM doesn't make it a limitation, it isn't. This goes with the armor not being available 1 in 3 times. (Who follows that rule??)

 

I believe Powered Armor, which makes up most of the OIF, has really evolved into its own Power Framework. It has access to offensive, defensive, movement, and sensory powers.

[Mentor]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

I guess that I don't understand the problem with the limitation because as GM,I "master" the game. Thus a limitation is not defined by the Focus (it is realy good armor so nothing can hurt it so there is no limitation and besides I never take it off) the Focus is defined by the limitation (Oops, the fight started a the symphony I need to change somewhere, wow that Flash overloaded my IR vision goggles, or how did my radio get jammed while Wavelength's still works fine).

 

Also if a player says it is worth -1/2, it is affected as necessary for game drama and not just a die roll.

[MitchellS]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

True' date=' but you have to land that Haymaker. He's not just going to stand there and wait. It is a realistic maneuver, but not seen in quite some time.[/quote']

If that were the case haymakers would never land on anyone, would they? I see at least one attempted every game session.

 

So without the OIF limitation, you are saying Powered Armor is:

Always Worn....huh???

Cannot be destroyed......Say what???

Cannot be taken away....what you talking about Willis?

I believe what being said is that the GM shouldn't impose limitations on a power that doesn't have any.

 

True, if the GM doesn't make it a limitation, it isn't. This goes with the armor not being available 1 in 3 times. (Who follows that rule??)

I think our player of Mapleleaf [our Canadian son of Guardian] would disagree with you about who follows the rules.

[incrdbil]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

So just to be clear, I think characters should be limited by the limitations they take. I'd rather do it with big "lose your armor" problems, but I'm just as happy with your generally worrying them about losing powers or armor. So long as they pay the price for thier limit, I'm happy.

 

I think I replied to you while having the reference frame of disagreement with the original post who didnt see the limitation in power Armor as an OIF.

[Kristopher]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

Personally, I don't understand the obession with mathematical purity and slavish devotion to "fairness" that seem to underly so many of the discussions on this board.

 

"Well, guys, we were going to continue with the rescue of the space station that we started last week, but Captain Arsenal hasn't had any trouble with his power armor in three sessions, and so he's overdue to have someone steal it while he's asleep. So we're going to come back to the space station next time, and have a flashback session now, so that we're absolutely fair to everyone. Wouldn't want Captain Arsenal to not pay for his Limitations, now would we? Oh, and before we start, I need to roll all of your 8 or less Disadvantages..."

 

[Lord Beavis]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

I believe Powered Armor, which makes up most of the OIF, has really evolved into its own Power Framework. It has access to offensive, defensive, movement, and sensory powers.

 

My overall point is this, Powered Armor with the OIF limitation is no different than Powered Armor without the limitation. The only difference is the reduced cost. The same armor, in both cases, does not have to be worn all the time, can be damaged, removed, require repairs, be stolen, be affected by magnetic powers (unless specifically protected from that; which is an Advantage).

 

Can someone name me a limitation that is OIF and not just normal for Powered Armor?

[MitchellS]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

My overall point is this' date=' [b']Powered Armor with the OIF limitation is no different than Powered Armor without the limitation[/b]. The only difference is the reduced cost. The same armor, in both cases, does not have to be worn all the time, can be damaged, removed, require repairs, be stolen, be affected by magnetic powers (unless specifically protected from that; which is an Advantage).

 

Can someone name me a limitation that is OIF and not just normal for Powered Armor?

The overall reply is, without the limitation the GM has no basis to use the powered armor against the character. The GM might run a story where the player loses, breaks, misplaces, can't have access to his non-limitation armor once but he is not going run stories based on that 8 times a year. If the GM did that more often then he is imposing limitations which do not exist on the character.

 

OIF armor man is going to get his suit damages, forgotten, put into situations where he can't access it on a fairly regular basis. Non-limitation armor man is not. For non-limitation armor man it is a GM's discression once-in-a-campaign things.

 

I don't understand your OIF question so I'll skip it and wait for clarification.

[Mentor]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

My overall point is this' date=' [b']Powered Armor with the OIF limitation is no different than Powered Armor without the limitation[/b]. The only difference is the reduced cost. The same armor, in both cases, does not have to be worn all the time, can be damaged, removed, require repairs, be stolen, be affected by magnetic powers (unless specifically protected from that; which is an Advantage).

 

Can someone name me a limitation that is OIF and not just normal for Powered Armor?

It is more a question of how the limitation or lack thereof, affects gameplay.

 

If two PCs have identical Power Armor, the guy/gal without the OIF limitation is more likely to find an empty broom closet to change, or will have nano filaments that cover his body and power up in an instant or will be very unlikely to suffer component damage or breakdown than the PC with the OIF. On the other hand, he will be doing all of this with only 2/3 of the points available for powers and defenses to the guy with the OIF limitation. The actual running of the game by both player and GM is where the relative advantages and disadvantages of OIF reveal themselves.

 

I have played a Power Armor PC since our campaign started some ten(?) years ago. My PC has had to duck Energy Blasts from villains who were hunting his Secret ID in order to find a place to change into his armor. He has had to escape from ship on which he was held prisoner in order to get back to HQ and suit up to fight the baddies. He has had to fight his way through an area effect spell over Manhatten which slowly was destroying technology, thus making his armor function only intermittently and with random effectiveness.

 

As always, it is about the roleplaying, not the mathematical comparison of character construction.

[sbarron]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

As always' date=' it is about the roleplaying, not the mathematical comparison of character construction.[/quote']Yeah, right...

[incrdbil]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

My overall point is this, Powered Armor with the OIF limitation is no different than Powered Armor without the limitation. The only difference is the reduced cost. The same armor, in both cases, does not have to be worn all the time, can be damaged, removed, require repairs, be stolen, be affected by magnetic powers (unless specifically protected from that; which is an Advantage).

 

I'm not really understanding you--the special effect 'Power armor' if not bought as an OIF, just straight out, can't be taken away, it can't be daqmaged, it doesn't require parts (and really, the OIF one 'needing parts' wont really come into play unless you've increased the focus disadvnatage to be hard to replace/repair)--and as for Magnetic powers, it can even be questionable then depending on the very description of the Pa--if its of non magnetic materials. non focus Power Armor guy isnt going to be deprived of his abiliyties any more than any other non limited hero is. non Focus Power armor guy cant have his armor removed by dumb thug agents when he's knocked out.--or the villain cant stop him from 'renergizing' or 'teleporting' his armor back to him on a regualr basis (maybe as a very unusual, campaign effect--, if it keeps happeninge, and the GM is applying a limitation unfairly)

 

Villain with OIF power armor--he's knocked out, armor removed, easier to handle. Dr Destroyers' power armor--you cant get it off. you might be able to suppress/drain the effects, but you cant take it away. You'll never find Dr.D sitting in his bath robe without his PA handy. You can't make a called shot on his weapons array and damage it.

 

there is a very distinct difference between Power Armor (no limitation), Power Armor (Hero ID only) and Power Armor (OIF), and not just in the cost of powers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: OIF for Powered Armor why?

 

My overall point is this' date=' [b']Powered Armor with the OIF limitation is no different than Powered Armor without the limitation[/b]. The only difference is the reduced cost. The same armor, in both cases, does not have to be worn all the time, can be damaged, removed, require repairs, be stolen, be affected by magnetic powers (unless specifically protected from that; which is an Advantage).

 

True. And a 20d6 ray blaster with one charge, act 11-, is still a ray blaster with one charge, act 11-, whether the GM allows the limitations (20 real points) or not (100 real points). However, because the ray blaster will sometimes fail to activate, can only try once and is easily disarmed, it gets limitations which reduce its point cost.

 

Similarly, the fact that the armor will not be worn all the time, can be damaged, removed, require repairs, be stolen, be affected by magnetic powers limits the effectiveness of the power and consequently reduces its cost. Many players prefer OIHID, to indicate their armor is not often damaged, is generally available and just doesn't cause the same hassle as an OIF would. The character will be less limited, so the point savings is reduced.

 

Can someone name me a limitation that is OIF and not just normal for Powered Armor?

 

The villain sees it is the source of your power and can arrange sitruations where it is not available. If you are knocked out it can be stolen. Tis does not require total team KO unless your character is with his teammates 24/7. It can also be stolen when you are not wearing it (say, because you are making a trans-Atlantic flight in your sevret ID), or it could just get rerouted (luggage does that - or were you taking your 125 pound briefcase full of metal on as carryon - this is a greater drawback for armor than, say, OIF Magic Ring). Targeted with attacks, it can be broken. Captain Inherent is in his deathtrap with all his powers available. Powered Armor Man has his wits and his underwear. And that's all he will have until he gets back to the lab to replace his armour, or finds the guy that took it (not an option if it was broken). This may be a while if he's currently trapped in the Alterniverse.

 

That's an OIF. Still want the 1/3 point savings?