FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

[Dust Raven]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Where are the HERO books? In specialty game stores only.

That likely a huge part of it as well. Locally, I've only seen a good supply of Hero Products at two stores, and both are game stores. All of my old spots for picking up RPGs (comic book shops) don't carry hero, or have a pitiful supply. And the game store in the mall started with an excellent supply of Hero products, but it seems they have never restocked the shelves.

[Dust Raven]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I just thought I would add that when my Champions campain ended in December, I made a list of games I'd be willing to run. On that list were a number of Hero System Games (Champions, Ninja Hero and Star Hero), several D&D campaigns and even Amber Diceless.

 

The vote was almost unanimously for Champions (almost because one player said he'd just play anything).

[incrdbil]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Same old story; stores only carrry the big sellers; nothing else sells big because stores don't carry it.

 

Only the biggest of game stores can carry big inventories--but hey, in a few years, I think those will be the only ones left, besides a few comic book shops carrying a small sample of game products--besides Games Workshop crackhouses.

[Agent X]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Part of the problem is that a lot of RPGnet's have a blind spot when it comes to the difference between supporting a concept and not outlawing it. Because there are no rules against the concept, the system is considered to support it, because you can always make up something on the spot. By that logic, any system can do just about anything. The most common example of this is when a subject is covered, but not in great detail - such as senses in BESM. Sure, you can say your character has X, but it's not represented by the rules.

 

Someone mentioned the d20 bias on RPGnet. It pales in comparison to the bias against generic games, or games that aren't rules-light.

Sounds about right.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Er? Make with a link please?

 

Here ya go, KS:

 

Shadowpunk

 

Lovely piece of work, too.

[Corven_Ren]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Same old story; stores only carrry the big sellers; nothing else sells big because stores don't carry it.

 

Only the biggest of game stores can carry big inventories--but hey, in a few years, I think those will be the only ones left, besides a few comic book shops carrying a small sample of game products--besides Games Workshop crackhouses.

 

It's kind of funny, the only Hero Supplier near me is a comic book store. Wheras as the hobby shop that is aimed more towards roleplaying carries not Hero at all.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Call me a dreamer... (sorry, long post)

 

I have always seen HERO's mix of detail and flexibility as having a wonderful potential for allowing guest shots of characters from wildly different settings with a very small amount of work compared to other systems. A smuggler pilot and crew who encounter a world of Dragons and Magic! A group of Supers that meet a group of Old West Lawmen (or WWII Freedom Fighters)! A Fantasy Adventure group that finds itself in the middle of the New York of today (with or without supers). etc...

 

Most long lasting gamer groups that I keep in touch with have a pretty good rotation of GM's and various Game Systems. One GM have only recently got to know has even ran Champions 4th ed. a while back. But for the most part he and the other GM's rotate amongst the the more established settings based systems.

 

I have talked to many of these gamers about HERO and the new 5E and 5ER and even loaned them Sidekick (and offered to loan other 5th ed books) to look at to generate some interest but it is really hard to get this idea across. I think last week's Justice League Unlimited is a really good example of what HERO could do very easily. It doesn't even have to be a mix of Supers and Old West. The idea is that one of the system's greatest strengths is the ability to model wildly different world settings with basicaly identical combat mechanics. It is my (possibly flawed) understanding that D20 Modern can't do this as well if you wanted to mix it with D&D since the hit point scales are too different.

 

Lord Liaden, The Question Man, Killer Shrike and many others have done bang up jobs of gathering or creating information on how to transfer characters from other RPG's to HERO. Unfortunately, I haven't seen much in the way of a consistent sales pitch by either HERO Games or any of the various conversion sites that bring up the, IMHO, very important point about HERO's core universal nature. Maybe Steve L. might consider writing something similar to Sidekick(for sale or a free PDF download?), that in turn, could be used as a starting point to attract experienced to try HERO as not just a good system to start a new game in but as one to export existing game settings and characters to from several other systemes to allow interaction between wildly different characters like one player's favorite Vampire and another's favorite Ranger.

 

This is no small undertaking and from what I can tell from the HERO boards it seems to only happen when extremely dedicated GM's with existing HERO gamers offer this option. I assume that they took the approach of starting players on Champions and then introducing them to Star and/or Fantasy Hero and so on. This usually only works if the players are willing to try a NEW game which 9/10ths of the time is Champions which some non-comic reading gamers just have on interrest in.

 

I understand that the gaming industry is very tight and HERO is a relatively small company in many ways compared to the big guys but this is one area of potential new growth that seems to under used.

 

one can only dream....

 

HM

[shem_whistler]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Also' date=' in England, there just isn't that much product on the shelves. I know I can buy through the net, but I like to weight a book in the hand and open it at random before I make that decision to buy. I have dozens of different game systems and that is how I would up buying most of them. I just don't get as excited about stuff on a computer screen.[/quote']

See that's where I'm lucky, I have leisure games not too far from me and they tend to hold at least 1 of the whole product line. I agree that seeing a book is nice before handing over the cash.

 

Shem

[zornwil]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I can see where a lot of the criticism comes from. As a GM, I sometimes tire of all the work that comes with the gig when it comes to Hero.

 

What I don't get is folks claiming that M&M or SAS or BESM are as flexible as Hero. I just don't see it. If they mean flexible enough, I can buy that as preference but I sincerely have problems with the idea that those games are as flexible.

I'm on the M&M list and have checked out their boards in the past (though I'm miffed, for some reason I can't log back in and my username is registered, but the web admin never returned my email request for help), and I can testify that the kinds of "how to" questions well demonstrate it's not AS flexible as HERO. Flexible enough, as you say, sure! And they have a nice chapter on creating your own powers. But using the rules "as is" and setting power creation aside (which HERO also indicates and which one can figure out from ALMOST any system), no way is it "as" flexible.

 

PS - and that's not even a bad thing. The purpose of M&M is to be a relatively simple system , balanced primarily for a certain scale of superhero characters. That's a fine purpose, and runs counter to the idea of HERO and the level of flexibility it promotes as a universal system.

[Furry Fox]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I think one of the reasons that people aren't playing Hero despite its complexity is the fact that it might not be the best game for every genre.

I hope this does not get me into too much trouble here but I think it might be a valid point. I feel that for supers you can't beat Hero. It is the best I love it. Considering the well known fact that Hero has evolved from Champions this is not a surprise. But for fantasy I feel that other games might be better tailored to meet the specific needs of the campaign. The difficulty with a generic system that tries to do everything is that it might not do anything well. This is clearly not the case with the Hero system but clearly it is hard to expect one system to be the best in all categories all the time.

[nexus]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Off topic, but that is the oddest thing. I've heard just as many people say that Hero is only good for Supers as people that say they'd never use it for Super but use it for anything else.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Off topic' date=' but that is the oddest thing. I've heard just as many people say that Hero is only good for Supers as people that say they'd never use it for Super but use it for anything else.[/quote']

 

Well, Superheroic and Heroic rules ARE wildly different within HERO.

[Cmonkey]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

One idea, and I know it has been done to an extent with Sidekick, is the D&D idea of the boxed introductory set: cheap, easy, spoon-fed, pared down rules, pre-generated characters, scenario designed to show the strengths of the game and introduce new concepts gently, that sort of thing. I know scenarios generally don't sell well, but one or two introduction scenarios would be a loss leader if they got people interested in the larger game.

To a large extent' date=' that's what [i']Teach Yourself The HERO System[/i] will be like, if I ever get it finished (and it'll be a free PDF available here at the website). But since it's a "spare time" project, it has to compete with all the other things I'm interested in doing, so it's only about half completed.

Regarding the ease of use of Hero, you may want to consider pre-packaged settings+rules books, like the "powered by GURPS" line by SJG. You could customize the rules to the setting and provide it in a single book. You could write expansion books to these "powered by Hero" lines, or just let the one book stand on its own.

[MitchellS]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Regarding the ease of use of Hero' date=' you may want to consider pre-packaged settings+rules books, like the "powered by GURPS" line by SJG. You could customize the rules to the setting and provide it in a single book. You could write expansion books to these "powered by Hero" lines, or just let the one book stand on its own.[/quote']

For the most part I agree. Gamers don't really understand this marketing approach Hero Games has taken with this rule book/genre book/setting book style. Gamers like complete packages. They don't want to have to buy 3 books to sample Fantasy Hero or Champions. They want to buy one book and then decide if they want more of it or not. Players want to see a 200-250 page complete game book. They don't really want to see a 600 page rule book and a 400 page genre book and a 250 page campaign book just to sample-play Fantasy Hero.

 

I said it before and I'll say it again: The best thing Hero Games can do is take Sidekick add 30 pages of genre information and 40 pages of campaign information and market those 200 page books to new gamers. Champions Sidekick and Fantasy Hero Sidekick are just the types of books that can lead players into the system and make them want to purchase the expanded versions of the genre and campaign books later.

 

The Hero System, as it stands now, is too intimidating to players due to the sheer size of the books. These monstrously wordy tomes impress the fan-boys but they do nothing to bring in new gamers to the system. Sidekick does help but people really have no idea where to go after that.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

Regarding the ease of use of Hero' date=' you may want to consider pre-packaged settings+rules books, like the "powered by GURPS" line by SJG. You could customize the rules to the setting and provide it in a single book. You could write expansion books to these "powered by Hero" lines, or just let the one book stand on its own.[/quote']This is mildly amusing, considering that, before the 4th Edition, that's exactly what HERO products were. Each genre had its own customized rules specific to the setting.The problem with that setup was that the rules weren't easily transferred between genres. Hence the consolidated rules. I doubt Steve wants to go the reverse direction.

[Cmonkey]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I didn't mean custom in that way. Mitchell S, above, has the right idea with the various sidekick titles...

 

They would not be a totally different ruleset, as was the case pre-4th, but rather only the rules needed to run the particular genre in question, perhaps even simplified a bit, if needed. The custom part would be that in a Special Ops game, there's no need for magic rules, so you customize the ruleset to be without magic, but maybe add more guns and equipment particular to the genre.

[nexus]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I didn't mean custom in that way. Mitchell S, above, has the right idea with the various sidekick titles...

 

They would not be a totally different ruleset, as was the case pre-4th, but rather only the rules needed to run the particular genre in question, perhaps even simplified a bit, if needed. The custom part would be that in a Special Ops game, there's no need for magic rules, so you customize the ruleset to be without magic, but maybe add more guns and equipment particular to the genre.

 

I see what you are saying but I don't really see how it could be implemented. The difference between Hero and say, GURPS, is that there are no "magic" rules per se. Magic is built with the same exact rules as technology, just applied a bit differently and with differently special effects. An RKA with Focus and Charges can be a gun or a wand of fireballs. Its all special effects. You could leave out magic as special effect, perhaps certain constructs, but there not one way to do magic in Hero.

[Cmonkey]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

That's just it, you build a magic system for that particular book, or take it from another published book, at least a stripped down basic magic system (not 1000s of spells). You do the same with equipment and powers and whatnot, until you have a complete game that is compatible with Hero's core book, but doesn't require it, or even sidekick, to play the game.

[MitchellS]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I see what you are saying but I don't really see how it could be implemented. The difference between Hero and say' date=' GURPS, is that there are no "magic" rules per se. Magic is built with the same exact rules as technology, just applied a bit differently and with differently special effects. An RKA with Focus and Charges can be a gun or a wand of fireballs. Its all special effects. You could leave out magic as special effect, perhaps certain constructs, but there not one way to do magic in Hero.[/quote']

I think you're taking it one step too far. Imagine a Fantasy Hero Sidekick. It has a few skills/etc. from 5Er removed. These would be skills like computer programming which have no basis in a fantasy world. Now throw in 30 pages of fantasy genre information. This will include some package deals, spells [mage and priest], and basic genre information for TA. Then throw in 40 pages from the TA atlas. Not the whole book but one small section of Ambrethel. Just enough to get appetites wetted. Then throw in half dozen TA monsters. Wrap it up and sell it for $20.00.

 

If gamers find the world interesting they can buy the complete TA sourcebook. Same goes for 5Er rules. It's a double entry point to both the Hero System and the Turakian Age material. And the best part is that there is not cost to Hero Games other than layout time and printing. Everything is already paid for. Then you can do something similar for Champions Universe. Those are going to be the two big genres but you can also do a Dark Champions Sidekick with Hudson City and a Star Hero Sidekick with Terran Empire material if the books seem to take off.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Well' date=' Superheroic and Heroic rules ARE wildly different within HERO.[/quote']

 

With that I have to respectfully disagree, WW. The largest default difference between heroic and superheroic conventions is the "pay for everything with Character Points" approach for the superheroic genre, which doesn't have any mechanical impact on the game. The rest is a fairly limited set of rules "toggles" which can be switched on or off as the GM prefers: Normal Characteristic Maxima, Knockdown instead of Knockback, and optional rules modules like Hit Locations and some Combat Maneuvers.

 

IME it's remarkably easy to port characters from any HERO genre game into any other, and have them function together.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

For the most part I agree. Gamers don't really understand this marketing approach Hero Games has taken with this rule book/genre book/setting book style. Gamers like complete packages. They don't want to have to buy 3 books to sample Fantasy Hero or Champions. They want to buy one book and then decide if they want more of it or not. Players want to see a 200-250 page complete game book. They don't really want to see a 600 page rule book and a 400 page genre book and a 250 page campaign book just to sample-play Fantasy Hero.

 

With all due respect, MitchellS, I think it would be more fair to say "some gamers don't understand." Just looking at this empirically, HERO from all reports is selling quite well compared to other game companies that aren't the established industry juggernauts: WotC, White Wolf and Palladium. I see more newbies coming to these boards every week, as well as folks at the RPGnet boards asking questions about it, so this approach must be appealing to someone. Whether and how it could appeal to more is a different topic, which I'll address further below.

 

 

I said it before and I'll say it again: The best thing Hero Games can do is take Sidekick add 30 pages of genre information and 40 pages of campaign information and market those 200 page books to new gamers. Champions Sidekick and Fantasy Hero Sidekick are just the types of books that can lead players into the system and make them want to purchase the expanded versions of the genre and campaign books later.

 

The Hero System, as it stands now, is too intimidating to players due to the sheer size of the books. These monstrously wordy tomes impress the fan-boys but they do nothing to bring in new gamers to the system. Sidekick does help but people really have no idea where to go after that.

 

I definitely agree that some gamers would be attracted to the kind of package you describe. The real issue is whether enough would be drawn to it to justify Hero Games's time and expense in putting it out, and that's far less clear. IME HERO seems to attract system tinkerers; people who enjoy modifying stuff or building their own, rather than having a lot of prebuilds. Certainly HG has gone a long way down the "prebuild" road with the USPD, the Bestiary, the Grimoires and all the similar books they've published, but even those include numerous options for customization. It's a judgement call as to whether you could bring in enough gamers with a "package" approach to make it worth the effort.

 

OTOH let's look at some of the competition. Dungeons and Dragons is the juggernaut of all RPGs, and it does put out some limited introductory sets. Then again the company seems to have no problem selling its Players Handbook and DM's Guide, both big expensive books with no setting information in them at all. Of course comparing any other game to D&D is a bit of an apples-and-oranges thing.

 

Then there's HERO's long-time rival in the generic RPG market, GURPS. From the beginning it's marketed a core rulebook with virtually no setting, concentrating on a diversity of supplements adding to the rules, and has done quite well in its niche with that approach.

 

IMHO Hero Games has been pretty attentive to what their fan base wants, but I'm not convinced that enough would want what you're suggesting to be worth pursuing. By all means make the suggestion, though; Darren, Steve and co. have been pretty good at listening to their buyers. I think they've proven they understand this business well enough that I'll accept their decisions.

[RDU Neil]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I see what you are saying but I don't really see how it could be implemented. The difference between Hero and say' date=' GURPS, is that there are no "magic" rules per se. Magic is built with the same exact rules as technology, just applied a bit differently and with differently special effects. An RKA with Focus and Charges can be a gun or a wand of fireballs. Its all special effects. You could leave out magic as special effect, perhaps certain constructs, but there not one way to do magic in Hero.[/quote']

 

 

Long Rant - On

And this... IMO... is why more people do not play Hero System. They don't want a tool box to construct with... they want a magic system that is constructed as part of a bigger system which is part of a world... all that is provided and defined by itself. They want limited choices, and a provided setting, and genre enforcement, et al.

 

Think about it... maybe I'm unique in this, but I really doubt it... but when I got into Hero... it was called CHAMPIONS! It was a game system for superheroes, with a power system for superpowers and a growing world where you could play superheroes and it DEFINED superhero role playing for the most part.

 

I would NEVER... at the age of 14-15, whent 1st Edition Champs came out... been drawn to something called "The Hero System: A Generic Role Playing System"

 

What the hell is that? It conjures no images... it tells no story... it implies no adventure or "wow!"

 

I was attracted to Champions: The Superhero Role Playing Game! This meant finally playing out what I loved in comics... it meant aerial combats of fire and light... it meant facing world dominating villains for the fate of humanity! Damn straight I picked up that crap box set with the horrible Mark Williams art where he couldn't even draw a straight line on the energy blast on the front cover! It was magic in a box!

 

It was only after playing for a while, and when 1st Edition Fantasy Hero came out, that it occurred to us you could do more with Champions than just supers... and it was YEARS later before we actually did do more.

 

The problem is, Champions is gone. It is a sub-book... and not a very good one, at that. The fact was, 4th Edition... for all it's flaws... was a great piece of game crafting. It took the idea of the universal system and built it into Champions... but still kept the bright colors... the gut appeal of supers... as it's primary focus. It allowed for the generic, universal system aspects... but that was SECONDARY to it's prime marketing appeal, which was Champions. (The Hero System Rulebook was a subbook, not the otherway around.)

 

Now... from an analytical/lawyer/engineer perspective... the new 5th Edition line is probably more "true" and more "pure" in concept. Core Rules... from there, spin off the multiple different genres/games/concepts. Makes sense, and I can appreciate that construct... but purity of form and analytical cleanliness is NOT A GOOD MARKETING PLATFORM!

 

I shouldn't have to say "Oh... before you can look at this neat book on science fiction role playing... you need to read this... "THUD!"... first." and drop the friggin' applied mathematics textbook that is FReD or 5ER in front of them.

 

Nobody wants to play "Hero System." They want to play "Champions!"

 

The only way I've been able to get new players into the game... is to get them excited about the STORY... the PLOTS... the GAME itself... long before I even beging to talk about what system I use. I get them into a play session, and see how cool it can be... get them hooked on the world... their character... and never even get close to the rules... until they ask? "How does that work? How do I change my character? What is happening when I roll three dice?" Then we get into it... slowly.

 

Of course, the fact is, almost none of these new players go out and buy the books. None of them seem to want to delve into it and the realize very quickly how much work it takes to create a game. There is no easy "stepping in point." There is no B2 - Keep On The Border Lands that every single Hero System player has gone through as every single D&D player likely has. Every campaign is unique... every interpretation of the rules and the intent and the theme of the game is unique.

 

I have new players, after a game, ask me, "Where did you get that?" in reference to a villain or a scene or a device that came up in play. They want a book where I can show them "Here... page 223... in the Grimoire of Arcane Devices!" I can't do that... instead I mumble something about... "Oh, it was just a absorbtion, linked with a minor transform... focus... charges... side effect limitations... I made it up." Not only do they not quite understand... but they are disappointed. There is no shared experience... there is no talking with other friends and saying, "Man... last weekend we fought a 27th Level Dragon Lich who had a the Wand of Orcus!" and everyone in the room goes "Oooooooooh!!"

 

At best, they can say, "Damn... it was a great game, and we had to face down this villain who was an interdimensional warlord... and his armies were coming through this one... well you'd need to know why that was important... and he took control of UNTIL... but in this world, UNTIL is not the same as it is in the books... and... well... it's hard to explain.... but you just had to be there..." There is no shared experience, really, outside of the gaming group itself... and even then, you have to build it up over time and experience with that group.

 

The thing that D&D... and Amber... and White Wolf... and IMO, 4th Edition Champions... did well, was to create a shared world experience. Of those first three game systems, I know so many people who have the books and read them cover to cover much more than they actually played them. They loved the immersion in a world/experience that they could share with others... even gamers they'd never met before. Early 4th Edition Champions had that feel... and only later, as supplements became each fan putting their own world view into print (stemming from Strike Force, which was actually 3rd Edition)... folks like Sean Fannon and our own Steve Long. There was no editiorial control... no focus on creating a consistent and tight world with consistent and tight interpretations of the system. Things began breaking down.

 

As we see here, on these boards... every individual sharing of campaigns and stories... there is very little shared ground. It is a huge, fascinating study on individuality and permutations... I love it for that... but it is NOT a way to create a popular, mass selling game system.

 

The simple fact is... to make things appealing quickly... you need to say "Do this one thing." Hero says, "Oh, there are lots of ways you could do that!"

 

That doesn't work. People have to grow into the understanding of the flexibility and limitless possibilities... not have it thrust upon them. They need to have a tight, solid... rigid even... set of rules and examples to create a consistent shared experience... and that will get them devoted. When those who want more realize that the system is truly expandable and flexible and CAN do more... then you have added massive longevity to the initial appeal... but those who just want it "Like it's always has been" can have to too... and be comfortable.

 

Right now, Hero doesn't offer that. It is controlled by the analysts and the engineers and the lawyers... of which I am part, I admit. It is too insular... too abstract... too theoretical in it's current incarnation. It needs to be more concrete... more linear... more directive... more complete... for it to have ease of entry to the great majority of gamers. Until that happens... you'll never win over the majority of gamers... even to have them try it out just once. You need to be evocative... to appeal to their hearts... and then win their minds over time. CHAMPIONS is evocative. Hero Systen... Fantasy Hero... Star Hero... etc., those names are just dust in the mouth. That is only a symptom of the problem... but it is the main problem the whole line faces.

 

End rant.

[nexus]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

[sarcasm]

To make Hero sell, we must make it less of what is it. We must dumb it down and think only of the "Story Oriented" because that is the natural and superior evolution of role playing games. No one is interested in the toolkit aspect of the Hero system so make it exactly like every other prepackaged setting out there. Lets put a stranglehold on the creativity and possibilites of the system and make just like any other one out.

[/sarcasm]

 

IThat is not why I or most other people I know buy the Hero system. There are other systems out there if you want them. Its cool if you do, but I'd prefer Hero always reamin a niche game than have it mutate into something just like everything else strictly for sales. I like the mini game of character generation. I like the fun of creating my own worlds and tinkering with the rules to get them started. If I wanted a premade, pre set up world I could go for any of dozens of different system. I got to Hero because I like to do it myself. I love the Hero system because it gives ME the control. I think that this is a stupid way to do magic, then I can change it. Easily and without headaches. I don't have to do "this way" because "this way" is the only way the rules are set up for it. That is the very reason I game to Hero over other systems (including GURPS which is moving towards a similar model). If I wanted prepackaged worlds with lots of "support" and staight jacket rules I could play d20. If I wanted "Story based" with "Make it up as you go along" rules, I could play Storyteller. There are choices out there. That's the beauty of a mass market. I play Hero because its gives me Flexible consistent and fairly balanced rule to provide a platform for MY creativity not what Steve Long or someone else comes to feed me. I could give less than a damn about "shared world" outside of my group and my games.

 

As far as I know, Hero is selling pretty good. Its not going anywhere anytime soon so I don't think "nobody wants to play this way" is a accurate assesment.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Actually, the two comments above highlight a very interesting divergence of opinion: would making HERO System "package" books that are more like many similar games on the market, including the best sellling ones, lead to more people choosing HERO over those games? Or would it divert attention from the things that make HERO unique and cause people to stay with it instead of those other games?

 

I really don't have an answer to that.

[Heroman]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

OTOH let's look at some of the competition. Dungeons and Dragons is the juggernaut of all RPGs, and it does put out some limited introductory sets. Then again the company seems to have no problem selling its Players Handbook and DM's Guide, both big expensive books with no setting information in them at all. Of course comparing any other game to D&D is a bit of an apples-and-oranges thing.

Actually, there is no comparision between PHB and a FH thing. While the base D&D does not offer a campaign, it establishes rules. A wizards does THIS. Has THESE spells. A druid is THIS. It generates the important formalized structure for the players which is lacking from FH. Why? Because FH is so hugely fluid and open ended....too open IMHO for players who would like something a little more solid to work from. New players need to have something they can put their hands on, not something completely fluid. As they become comfortable with the system, then would they venture into different options and the need (and possibly desire) to start custom designing.

I can see it being a bit challenging for GMs too. Like the players, they are used to having a framework to start from. There is a much larger laundry list of possibilities as they decide on how the core things are (since this has not been done for them yet), and now have the dual task of preparing something for the players to establisht he FH rules in play AND the actual game world. Twice the work a D&D GM needed to do (if not more).

 

At least in the old days, they had the PHB which targeted the character formation, rules, and such and the settings book which was the rest of the world. Hero does not; they actually skip in between all those, mostly. There is the core book (rules, but more fluid than the PHB), the genre books (rules, less definitiive than the D&D settings books; much closer to the DMG), then the source books (hopefull close to the PHB+settings book).

 

Hero + Fantasy Hero book != D&D. It is still much closer to a toolkit to making a fantasy world, but still more abstract than the base D&D system. A Hero GM needs to use these 2 and publish their own 3rd book to build a set fantasy system, irregardless of the world. This is a strength of D&D in that a structure is established from which both the GM and players can operate, hence the huge number of modules which can be published. You don't need to worry how the magic system is done, etc; it is established for you.

 

In the end, I think that a player likes rules and things to follow. Yes, eventually they will (hopefully) desire more once the comfort sets in, but we lack that first step (something which I am guessing SK helps fill in a bit)

 

Instead of a Fantasy SK book, I would like to see a "Jobs!" FH book. Something which goes into great detail on a huge number of potential professions, (The Ultimate Fantasy Jobs?), including how they rank their order, spells used, etc. Since there is a sourcebook out there, focus on how stuff is constructed for that, allowing GMs who want different styles of play (diff magic systems, etc) to handle the conversion.

 

In the end, after this rambling, I think the sourcebooks are off mark a bit. To me, the players never should need to see the genre book. It contains the details and information which is important to help build the source book, but the important stuff should be reiterated in the source book because a) there is no reason for a player to leaf thru looking at stuff which does not apply, and I really should not have to pay $40 (BBB) + $30 (SH) + $25 (TE) to think about playing TE. If you plan to play 3 different sci-fi games with entirely different implementation of the SH rules, then yes, this breakout (and money investment) makes sense. Otherwise, not so much...

The SK is a incredible move in the right direction, but I think the genre book needs to get dropped from the new player's checklist and the TE book augmented properly to support that move (just from the TE perspective).