Inconsitancies

[Vorsch]

has any one ever noticed that a brick is proportianly less fit than a normal human.

 

Brick str 60, con 30, end 60

 

tires completely after 10 phases, gains 3 phases per rec

 

The milkman str 10, con 10, end 20

 

tires completly after 20 phases, gains 4 phases per rec, thats forever even at spd 4

 

So much for superfit bricks.

 

I argue that this is not genre, and a flaw in the 20+year old rules.

 

comments?

[MitchellS]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

A 60 strength brick with a 2 or 3 speed never tires. It's the extra "heroic" actions the characters takes which cause him to tire quicker.

 

I'd also point out that your math is slightly off in that milkman with 10 strength never tires either, unless you are using the long-term endurance rules [4 end per turn with 4 recovery].

[Just Joe]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

I haven't thought about this recently, but I think it's more a matter of typical character design than rules. Otherwise, why not 60 str, 60 con, 120 end? I think the typical solution is reduced end on str.

 

I'm always struck by the high ratio of str to con and especially of str to bod, not only in bricks but in a wide range of characters, creatures, etc.

[Vorsch]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

Bod is seriously under bought

 

My point was End expenditure in superhumans increase faster than their fitness/energy levels. All normals can pelt alround at full abilities for ever while Supers have to conserver thier energy like geriatric grandmas, alway worring about over taxing themselves.

 

Not genre, most if not all genuine super never tire

[MitchellS]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

And that's why you have the 1/2 endurance advantage. The advantage really just shows the added level of fitness the hero has.

 

I'd also point out that 10 str 10 con milk man is a 100% proportion character whereas 60 str 30 con brick is not. A better comparison would be 20 str 10 con milk man, who would then exhaust himself in 10 turns, the same amount of time as the 4 speed brick, but the brick gets twice as many actions within those 10 turns.

[Vorsch]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

No its impied from ther high level of fitness.

 

Few champions bricks have reduced end

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

well that might be a fair description of the published bricks but of the team based bricks, Durak stands out as one of the most effecient examples of the archetype and he DOES have Reduced End on STR. Within the published universe, Eurostar is one of the more powerful villain teams that can pose a problem to nearly any power level of character team. With that said, I don't think that the published characters are supposed to represent a statistical cross section of all abilities as much as just example powersets.

 

Endurance is one of the trickier rules to handle since, to some, it appears to slow down a game and requires addtional bookkeeping that rarely comes into play. I personally like dealing with it but I love wargaming too so I am the exception to the typcial RPGamer. Just depends on how much realism you want in a game.

 

As far as examples in the comic or other source material I remember an early episode of Justice League Animated that has Superman facing off against Mongul and nearly getting winded by the effort that he has to put forth to take Mongul down. It can be argued that he is pushing his STR which is causing him to tire more quickly but I think that seems to go against the 'one-time' last resort aspect of Pushing that is implied in the rules.

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

And just to add...

 

What is it about Reduced End that cannot be attributed to a high level of fitness?

 

How would you buy the movement abilities of Flash? Are you seriously recommending that he must buy an incredible REC which also affects his STUN (which doesn't seem right for that character IMO)?

 

HM

[Dust Raven]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

One of the differences I've noticed between the genre (any genre) and how that genre is played in an RPG, are the lulls in combat. The source material has lulls, and the RPG usually does not. There's rarely any time that the combatants stand back for a little while to catch a breath or simply observe each other for a moment in the RPG. That goes a long way to maximizing a character's stamina.

 

Granted, that doesn't address the proportion issue. The way I look at it is thus: Examine what each character actually accomplishes. Say the milkman runs as fast as he can until he's out of breath. The milkman run forever with a SPD 2, REC 4 and 6" of Running. The brick, with a 20 REC can run forever as well (assuming up to a SPD 5 with 20" of running). I would think the Brick looks healthier.

 

If you completely overwork them, make them each hold as much as they can and still Run full SPD... Milkman is spending 1 END for STR and 1 for Running, and is still going forever. The brick is spending 3 for STR (only half STR or else his movement is penalized for encumbrance) and can still run at 6" (with a SPD 5) and outpace the milkman. Sure, he can probably go faster and windhimself, but that's what makes him super, and the milkman normal.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

I like the idea of the milkman out-performing the brick.

 

Ernie (the fastest milkman in the West) takes on Obsidian as an apprentice on a cash-in-hand basis (after he was sacked from The Champions and spent some time as an illegal immigrant, desperate for work). Within minutes, poor old Obsidian is staggering around panting, barely able to lift the empties without knocking himself unconscious, whilst good old Ernie is still hot to trot. It is fair to point out that Obsidian has been carrying the milk float since the battery conked out, but he's a big lad, you'd think he'd be fitter than that....

[zornwil]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

FWIW, I always thought that the heroes in comic books' pauses were recoveries, indicating they indeed burnt up energy quickly.

 

The "problem" in replicating the genre that Vorsch' post points out to me more so, then, is that most characters tend to buy up their END to assure it's not an issue for 2-4 Turns (depending on their character). I'm not really concerned with it, but it's an interesting point.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

I would agree. With the metagame changes in 5ER and FRED we see combats ideally taking less time as the damage potential is up (slightly) and the defenses are if anything lower.

 

If we could play *like* the source material instead of our wargaming roots we could indeed pause, give a little monlogue and go back in swinging like the comics. But we gamers are an impatient lot and want to Monologue and Strike in the same phase.

 

Hawksmoor

-My money is on the Milkman!

[zornwil]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

Of course HERO encourages this by stating monologues are free. My players (some, anyway) do some occasional monologues in battle, but it doesn't count against a Phase or Turn. This was/is HERO's solution to the pauses - they are there, but HERO doesn't have them have any other game effect, so the time is irrelevant.

 

Here's a possible and weird germ of an idea, not at all thought out but getting back to work here, so just please somebody take it and run with it .... what if we gave "half recoveries" with full or 3/4 DCV for "half phase monologues", and not only that, but perhaps if we also indicated that if you FAIL to do so you burn END at a double rate after the first turn without a monologue? Or by failing to do a monologue over a Turn, you actually start losing 1 in combat rolls (IOW, -1 on DCV and OCV). Only applies to superheroic genre. I dunno, it's a stupid idea...but maybe there's a good idea in there somewhere...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

Of course HERO encourages this by stating monologues are free. My players (some, anyway) do some occasional monologues in battle, but it doesn't count against a Phase or Turn. This was/is HERO's solution to the pauses - they are there, but HERO doesn't have them have any other game effect, so the time is irrelevant.

 

Here's a possible and weird germ of an idea, not at all thought out but getting back to work here, so just please somebody take it and run with it .... what if we gave "half recoveries" with full or 3/4 DCV for "half phase monologues", and not only that, but perhaps if we also indicated that if you FAIL to do so you burn END at a double rate after the first turn without a monologue? Or by failing to do a monologue over a Turn, you actually start losing 1 in combat rolls (IOW, -1 on DCV and OCV). Only applies to superheroic genre. I dunno, it's a stupid idea...but maybe there's a good idea in there somewhere...

I don't know about all the tracking that you suggest but you bring up a very good point about monologues being central to the genre of superheroes. The Incredibles paid homage to this idea when Syndrome caught himself doing it once and even gave nods to Mr. Incredible for goating it out of him.

 

Maybe, within the Champions genre at least, PC's and NPC's alike could attempt to use monologues as a way of disguising their need to take a recovery due to the quick pace of a battle. It would require everyone to take a step back from the pure wargame aspect of the combat rules and integrate everything a little more than is normally suggested but it could be very cool. This might only really be appropriate for really big encounters either with a Master Villain or a roughly equal powered villain team though.

 

HM

[RDU Neil]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

I don't know about all the tracking that you suggest but you bring up a very good point about monologues being central to the genre of superheroes. The Incredibles paid homage to this idea when Syndrome caught himself doing it once and even gave nods to Mr. Incredible for goating it out of him.

 

Maybe, within the Champions genre at least, PC's and NPC's alike could attempt to use monologues as a way of disguising their need to take a recovery due to the quick pace of a battle. It would require everyone to take a step back from the pure wargame aspect of the combat rules and integrate everything a little more than is normally suggested but it could be very cool. This might only really be appropriate for really big encounters either with a Master Villain or a roughly equal powered villain team though.

 

HM

 

While I allow players to talk while acting... even speech-a-fying while acting... if they decide to stop and talk, then it takes an action to do so. No monologues for free... as stopping to talk in combat can be a very effective combat action. If your speech might have stopped a battle, but before you can finish, another person blasts the villain and makes the battle continue... that is important drama to me.

 

I also require Presence Attacks to take a full action... or to accompany an action... no PRE attacks for free. PRE is a very powerful combat maneuver, so spending an action to make all the agents pee their pants and run is good for me.

 

As you noted above, I'm totally out of the wargaming aspect. I hate when wargaming impinges on role playing. Combat should be dramatic story-telling, just like non-combat. No minis... no hex maps... no measuring... no maximizing power efficiencies. Act in character in combat, just like you'd act in character out of combat.

 

Played this way for so long, I'm surprised when the original rules crop up... as I haven't considered them in years.

[zornwil]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

While I allow players to talk while acting... even speech-a-fying while acting... if they decide to stop and talk, then it takes an action to do so. No monologues for free... as stopping to talk in combat can be a very effective combat action. If your speech might have stopped a battle, but before you can finish, another person blasts the villain and makes the battle continue... that is important drama to me.

 

I also require Presence Attacks to take a full action... or to accompany an action... no PRE attacks for free. PRE is a very powerful combat maneuver, so spending an action to make all the agents pee their pants and run is good for me.

 

As you noted above, I'm totally out of the wargaming aspect. I hate when wargaming impinges on role playing. Combat should be dramatic story-telling, just like non-combat. No minis... no hex maps... no measuring... no maximizing power efficiencies. Act in character in combat, just like you'd act in character out of combat.

 

Played this way for so long, I'm surprised when the original rules crop up... as I haven't considered them in years.

Yes, but you're a lunatic extremist!

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

RDU Neil,

 

I have a similar playstyle. I haven't used more than a roughly sketched map in ages.

 

More power to the role-players!

 

Hawksmoor

-No the Villian is talking you have to sit and listen! He just PRE attacked you so you have to hesitate to hear his dastardly plot to poison the girl scout cookies!

[badger3k]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

RDU Neil,

 

I have a similar playstyle. I haven't used more than a roughly sketched map in ages.

 

More power to the role-players!

 

Hawksmoor

-No the Villian is talking you have to sit and listen! He just PRE attacked you so you have to hesitate to hear his dastardly plot to poison the girl scout cookies!

 

We game online over yahoo chat. All maps are either quickly sketched or in my head. Distances are numeric and I keep rough track. It's worked since we started this a few years ago (and I found it amusing that people in the D&D boards couldn't believe you can play that without a map! Try Hero sometimes...). It actually works out pretty well, although we mostly do Fantasy Hero and not too much Champs . As for pauses, when we play where END rules are needed, our group takes recoveries as needed - but then I learned to do that back in '85/'86, and may have taught them that. I'd say the soliloquy is not a major part, thoug I like the idea.

[proditor]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

I'm with the peanut gallery on this one. In addition to the examples provided by MitchellS and DustRaven, I'd point out that the gasp of breath to ready "ONE LAST TRY! " is as comic book genre as you can possibly get. It's also what we call taking a recovery. Serioiusly, some of my more favorite moments in comic history are based around that last regrouping. 1) Thor gettting his breath back to use Unfettered Might against the Midguard Serpent in Thor #486 (series 1) 2) Wolverine trying to dig deep to keep Mariko from getting shot by Viper "No strength...and even less speed..." in Uncanny X-men #173...really I could list a whole lot more. They aren't just genre friendly, they help DEFINE the genre. The hero who catches his breath to give it one last shot for Mom, Apple Pie and Chevrolet. If we then include all the instances of pushing past those last few END points to win anyway, well to save time I'd just start at Crisis with Barry Allen and try to keep it under 1000 pages of text.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

I handle monologues dramatically. If saying something should take time, it does. If it shouldn't, it doesn't. If Doctor Destroyer wants to gloat a bit and curse the heroes before ducking into his escape pod, he can and does do this and the heroes have to wait for him to finish before anyone can act. It isn't the least be realistic, but it's dramatic and it's genre. If Foxbat wanted to do the same thing, however, I just tell the players he's using his action to talk and it's their turn. Then again, Foxbat isn't Doctor Destroyer and nobody much cares what he says. Dr. D is likely to same something very important (such as hinting at the next stage of his master plan, and since the heroes don't have a shot of taking him down now anyway, they might as well hear it).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

Of course HERO encourages this by stating monologues are free. My players (some, anyway) do some occasional monologues in battle, but it doesn't count against a Phase or Turn. This was/is HERO's solution to the pauses - they are there, but HERO doesn't have them have any other game effect, so the time is irrelevant.

 

Here's a possible and weird germ of an idea, not at all thought out but getting back to work here, so just please somebody take it and run with it .... what if we gave "half recoveries" with full or 3/4 DCV for "half phase monologues", and not only that, but perhaps if we also indicated that if you FAIL to do so you burn END at a double rate after the first turn without a monologue? Or by failing to do a monologue over a Turn, you actually start losing 1 in combat rolls (IOW, -1 on DCV and OCV). Only applies to superheroic genre. I dunno, it's a stupid idea...but maybe there's a good idea in there somewhere...

I just buy END/STUN Healing as one of the slots in my multipower. Make a half move, keep you FF on, retain your full DCV, regain 10 END & 9 STUN (with a 4d6 Healing 1/3 to END, 2/3 to STUN; 0 END Self Only).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

....The hero who catches his breath to give it one last shot for Mom' date=' Apple Pie and [u']Chevrolet[/u]....

LOL!

HM

[RDU Neil]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

I'm with the peanut gallery on this one. In addition to the examples provided by MitchellS and DustRaven' date=' I'd point out that the gasp of breath to ready "ONE LAST TRY! " is as comic book genre as you can possibly get. It's also what we call taking a recovery. Serioiusly, some of my more favorite moments in comic history are based around that last regrouping. 1) Thor gettting his breath back to use Unfettered Might against the Midguard Serpent in Thor #486 (series 1) 2) Wolverine trying to dig deep to keep Mariko from getting shot by Viper "No strength...and even less speed..." in Uncanny X-men #173...really I could list a whole lot more. They aren't just genre friendly, they help DEFINE the genre. The hero who catches his breath to give it one last shot for Mom, Apple Pie and Chevrolet. If we then include all the instances of pushing past those last few END points to win anyway, well to save time I'd just start at Crisis with Barry Allen and try to keep it under 1000 pages of text. [/quote']

 

Seems this thread is talking about a lot of different things. Soliloquies and PRE attacks don't normally line up with Recoveries... but if the question is "What else can a hero do while recovering..." well, I've allowed them to stand up and take perception rolls, and gasping a few lines of dialogue is no problem... it just all happens at 1/2 DCV.

 

As for Recovering at the last second for one last shot at the big bad... sure... and I have my Luck Chit system for that. One of the most basic actions a character can take with the lowest level luck chit is an instant recovery that costs no action. It often gets used for that dramatic return to combat when they should have been KO'd moment. With my pushing rules (you can push up to half the active points of the power at 1 ap per 1 END) I've had several dramatic "last... chance... to... finish... him... !" actions that cost the player something like 40+ END and do stun to him, and leave him collapsed in a heap... but the villain is pulling a Nighthawk, with his legs sticking out of a hole in the wall. That's awful fun at times!

[fbdaury]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

Yes, but here's something to keep in mind- that str60 brick does not need to use his full strength all the time and can usually use less str for less end expenditure. That milkman MUST use all his strength to lift 100kg but to the brick it's less than nothing, and the stronger that you get, the less you need to use your full strength.

[zornwil]

Re: Inconsitancies

 

Personally, I used to allow recoveries to be effective even if you took STUN damage, so long as you were willing to take it. I don't do it anymore as I try to be closer to the "real" system.