Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

[Elbandit]

Howdy!

 

I was looking through the online USPD and spotted the Danger Sense Dodging and had a question about how it worked it game play. Is it a power that requires you to spend an action similar to dodge? OP

 

Here is the power in question:

 

Game Information: Armor (20 PD/20 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (75 Active Points); Requires A Danger Sense Roll (-1/2), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Instant (-1/2). Total cost: 30 points.

 

Game balance wise, would you allow this power for a character with a 7 SPD and 11 DCV?

[MitchellS]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

The power requires no use of an action. It only requires that you can sense the danger. The special effect is that the blow is only glancing due to your ability to "dodge" away from it.

 

I wouldn't allow it because of the fact that I feel it infringes on the brick's stick of immunity to harm. High dex and speed characters have dex and speed as their stick. They shouldn't get access to levels of invulnerability too, IMO.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Well I know we are supposed to reason from effects and all, but defences defined as dodging always seem so...dodgy to me. They are silly in that if someone fires a green ray at you that does a killing attack you can 'dodge' it, but if they fire a green ray at you that does a Body drain then you can't. Makes suspending the old disbelief a real effort, y'know?

 

As to your question, it is a legal buld and it probably works fine in practice - I recently designed something similar for a brick, defined as a 'super block' - basically scads of armour and KB resistance that took up a full phase and required concentration...

 

Would I allow a character that had DCV 11 and SPD 7 to have it? Well, no problem in principle: if they can buy block and missile deflect they can do something similar anyway. If it is supposed to be a dodge I'd make it a dodge: buy it as a full phase action, not an persistent power, but that is just style.

 

I can see this one getting stuck in a multipower and being grossly useful. I'd want to check just how many active points the character had on defence before I made a final decision and even then it would depend on how the rest of the character was built, and how the rest of the game group was built and...

 

 

....so I don't know, really.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

I'd want to check just how many active points the character had on defence before I made a final decision and even then it would depend on how the rest of the character was built, and how the rest of the game group was built and...

 

....so I don't know, really.

 

That's key to me. If the character already had defenses of 30, my answrer would be very different than if he has 5/5 defenses if his danger sense fails.

[Elbandit]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

That's key to me. If the character already had defenses of 30' date=' my answrer would be very different than if he has 5/5 defenses if his danger sense fails.[/quote']

 

The character has defenses equal to 18, 8 of which are resistant. His danger sense roll is 13-.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

The character has defenses equal to 18' date=' 8 of which are resistant. His danger sense roll is 13-.[/quote']

 

First off, then, his "requires danger sense roll" should be -3/4, not -1/2, for a 13- "activation" roll.

 

We now get to "standard" defenses for the campaign. If the "standard" defenses are 20/20, I think this character has defenses that are excessive. If the standard is 25/25, I might be inclined to allow it (though he'll still be well above the norm), although his already high DCV makes him pretty well defenses. If his defenses are well below the norm for the campaign, I would very likely allow it.

 

Looking more closely at the construct, I don't believe I would allow both "instant" and "requires danger sense roll". It wouldn't stay active after the roll anyway. I believe Instant would also require him to have a phase available each time he wants to use the defenses.

 

I would also seriously consider how "costs END" will work. If this were a force field, the character woud pay END every phase he wants it to be possible for the Danger Sense to activate, not just every phase in which he is attacked and wants to roll (much less succeeds with the roll). With a 7 speed, and a 75 AP power, this is going to cost him 49 END per turn, assuming he wants the ability to have this defense available at all times. I suppose he could rely on Aborting to activate it, but he'll likely be doing a lot of Aborts, and he better hope no one attacks him after his action on a phase.

[MitchellS]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

The question is will in imbalance your game? For 7 endurance and a skill roll the character can have a 38 pd and ed. Does your team brick have 38 pd and ed? Would you allow your team brick to buy:

 

Thump-Proof: +7 DCV, Requires Brick Trick Roll: -1/2, Instant: -1/2, Cost End: -1/2, x2 End: -1/2. Total Cost: 12 points [special effect being he can position his body in such a way that attacks bounce off him]?

 

My personal feeling is that Thump-Proof infringes on the martial artist and speeder character's concepts and that Danger Sense Dodge infringes on the brick and tank character's.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

The question is will in imbalance your game? For 7 endurance and a skill roll the character can have a 38 pd and ed. Does your team brick have 38 pd and ed? Would you allow your team brick to buy:

 

Thump-Proof: +7 DCV, Requires Brick Trick Roll: -1/2, Instant: -1/2, Cost End: -1/2, x2 End: -1/2. Total Cost: 12 points [special effect being he can position his body in such a way that attacks bounce off him]?

 

My personal feeling is that Thump-Proof infringes on the martial artist and speeder character's concepts and that Danger Sense Dodge infringes on the brick and tank character's.

 

 

Hummmmm.

 

It may infringe, but is that a reason to disallow it?

 

My own feelings would be that you cant make a call on this unless you have information on the campaign as a whole. IF, IF this makes the character significantly more powerful/effective in combat than the other characters, then you can say "this is unbalancing, so you can't do this". BUT, if the only objection is that power "infringes" on another class/archtype then I would allow the power. One of the things I love about hero is there are no predefined roles, no character classes. Who says the strongman cant be really hard to hit? Who says a speedster can't be tough? If you want to play some kind of fusion/crossover from the traditonal design concepts more power to you. I would only stop it if the result was overpowered, and thus unfair to the other characters.

 

The Hyborian

[Lanith]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

The way the power is built looks fine, but I agree with everyone above the use of this would need to be "balanced" in the game. This character already, most likely, has the highest DCV and highest SPD. Would his/her having this power just "throw the game out of whack"?

 

Why is this power bought as Armor with the disad of Costs End? Why not just have the player spend the extra points and buy Force Field?

 

EDIT: I re-read the post and noticed something I missed before.

[Elbandit]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Keep in mind that I pulled the power from the online power database, I did not make it and I am confused on its actual use. Right now I am more concerned with how this power functions.

 

I believe the original author wanted the power to represnt dodging based on the Dange sense ability... which is a neat idea. However, with the instant add-on, does that mean the power just works for the phase it is activated it? Suggestions for a better build are more than welcome.

 

Let me give you a little background on my campaign. All of the characters, along with their advancement potential, was constructed by me with input from the players. I did that mostly to keep a sense of balance and make sure the characters stay unique enough from each other.

 

Standard defenes seem to range from 15 to 25. The brick is running around with defenses that range from 30 to 35. I would be concerned about the brick but he takes double damage from magic and has been KOed several times already.

 

When I started finalizing the advancement process for the team's spiderman clone I hit a wall since I have run out of ideas on what to do with him. The player has been less than helpful with suggestions. The character is constantly getting KOed since he will try to go toe to toe with bricks or fails to dodge.

[Lanith]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Your player doesn't seem to know where to put his powers to best advantage (which would explain the KO's) but that will be fixed with time or more KO's.

 

Personally I see the concept of the power and the best reason I can give for the Instant add-on is that the "Armor" isn't really there, it is only in effect the "instant" that the character realizes the attack is coming and tries to avoid as much damage as possible. (In game terms, the player would need to make a DS roll on every incoming attack to get the bonus DEF)

 

That's just my thoughts and I hope they help.

[MitchellS]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Yes, the power only works for the 1 phase it is activated, unlike regular armor which is constant and would stay up all the time.

 

For a better example look at Thump-Proof and change requires brick trick roll to requires danger sense roll. That would basically then be the classic Spider-man danger sense dodge. Higher DCV makes more sense for a high DCV character than armor does, IMO. Also, armor would not really be a "dodge" as the character would always be hit, and would always take knockback from the attack.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Yes' date=' the power only works for the 1 phase it is activated, unlike regular armor which is constant and would stay up all the time. [/quote']

 

OK, I'm even less clear on the power. Either it should be Requires Danger Sense Roll (-3/4 as its 13-, and no Instant because it either acts or does not each time), or RSR: Danger sense (-1/2) and Instant (-1/2), in which case the Danger sense roll is at -7 (-1 for each 10 AP of the power) and will succeed only rarely.

 

hmmm...the power also requires a visible manifestation as the Armor costs END.

 

For a better example look at Thump-Proof and change requires brick trick roll to requires danger sense roll. That would basically then be the classic Spider-man danger sense dodge. Higher DCV makes more sense for a high DCV character than armor does' date=' IMO. Also, armor would not really be a "dodge" as the character would always be hit, and would always take knockback from the attack.[/quote']

 

If I assume the roll allows the character to sense the attack and roll out of the way entirely. As I read the "Armor" power, it allows the character to divine, at the last instant, the best manner to roll with the hit and blunt the damage done.

 

As for "stepping on the MA's schtick", so what? Isn't the whole point of a flexible, point-based system to AVOID predefined archetypes ("classes") whose abilities are fixed in stone, and may not be varied?

[MitchellS]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

As for "stepping on the MA's schtick"' date=' so what? Isn't the whole point of a flexible, point-based system to AVOID predefined archetypes ("classes") whose abilities are fixed in stone, and may not be varied?[/quote']

If that were the case all genre books wouldn't have so many predefined archetypes.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

If that were the case all genre books wouldn't have so many predefined archetypes.

 

 

Oh come now my good man. It sounds like you want to punish people for originality. I would have no problem with a GM saying "this power is unbalancing, so no." Or "I think this is stretching the rules, so no." OR even "thinking through the result of this power, it doesn't match the concept you described, so no". But to say no to a power because its not the kind of thing a classical Martial Artists/Brick/Metalist/ what-have-you would take is really class based thinking. The joy of Hero is that it is totally open ended. Now, Im not saying that I would approve the power that the original poster was asking about; that depends on a great many factors. But I would never say, "sorry, your not a brick, you can have defenses that high". Instead I would be happy that I had creative players.

[devlin1]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Personally, I'm stuck on why "Danger Sense Dodging" is defined as the ability to take a hit instead of the ability to avoid one. Were it me, I'd just buy more DCV with "Activation 13-" to equal his Danger Sense roll. I'm just not a fan of confusing Armor and DCV. Yeah, the guy can still get hit by an AoE attack, and he can't take damage as well as a brick, but really, that's okay. Not everyone can do everything, nor should they, IMO.

 

As for getting knocked out in toe-to-toe fights with bricks... he should stop doing that. Going up against bricks that way, I mean. If he's that fast, there are better ways to take them down.

[zornwil]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

If that were the case all genre books wouldn't have so many predefined archetypes.

I tend to think the opposite. I think the HERO source material provides these archetypes and classic characters so that the "easy" stuff is done and that means you have a foundation to play on.

 

Let me put it this way - how many people have actually played a character out of the books??? I bet very few, I've never known anyone who has done so with HERO in the games I've played, out of about 15 or so people that I've gamed specifically HERO with more than a couple or so times.

[badger3k]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

I tend to think the opposite. I think the HERO source material provides these archetypes and classic characters so that the "easy" stuff is done and that means you have a foundation to play on.

 

Let me put it this way - how many people have actually played a character out of the books??? I bet very few, I've never known anyone who has done so with HERO in the games I've played, out of about 15 or so people that I've gamed specifically HERO with more than a couple or so times.

 

Actually, I see the archetypes as for both reasons. I think most gamers are at least familiar with the concepts of the archetypes, and they provide a good and solid (if often cliched or stereotyped) base for adventure construction/team formation/etc. At the same time, they allow those who want to expand on the basics to use them as a starting point. It's also helpful for those who want to imitate comic characters to have a reference point. Anyway, it wouldn't be superheroic without the traditional roles.

 

That said, the power looks ok, although the modifications mentioned make sense to me. I'd have to look at the character concept before I allowed this - if the character is the spider-man type, I'd go more along the lines of the hyper-dodge power (the +DCV for DS roll option), so that the entire attack misses. If the character is more of an ultra-boy type (or perhaps a martial artist who can use his chi to bolster his physical defenses), where he can somehow either roll with the blow or just endure more damage than normal through some effort, then I'd go with the armor. It all depends on how you want it to work.

 

The hardest part is balancing it in the group. For myself, I tend to try to get a good balance, but all my players know that the first few games are trial periods - any power can be changed if it is overpowered for the game (sort of like the comics continual changing/development of many characters). Naturally, I can't give any solid opinion for the group in question, but my gut instinct is that it is potentially unbalancing. The fact that he equals (roughly) the brick but lacks the weakness to magic, for a slightly better than average roll...I'd watch it carefully.

[Mike W]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

For me, the archetypes provide a starting point for game balance. Sure, you can give a "brick" martial arts - but he has to sacrifice some raw strength or defenses to compensate. I don't see the need for the "danger sense dodging" as it is defined here - especially not 20 points worth. Just buy decent defenses and a couple levels of Combat Luck. It's basically the same thing and balances easier.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Help me understand Hero rules here...

 

First off' date=' then, his "requires danger sense roll" should be -3/4, not -1/2, for a 13- "activation" roll.[/quote']

 

 

Either it should be Requires Danger Sense Roll (-3/4 as its 13-' date=' and no Instant because it either acts or does not each time), or RSR: Danger sense (-1/2) and Instant (-1/2), in which case the Danger sense roll is at -7 (-1 for each 10 AP of the power) and will succeed only rarely.[/quote']

 

I thought RSR was a "roll once, it works from then on" kind of thing, with -1 / 10AP penalty. Adding "Instant" essentially converts it to act like an Activation Roll, and SHOULD provide the same limitation (after adding the two together)... ? Please correct if wrong somewhere.

 

My mental shorthand has always been that RSR is to be avoided for instant powers, and Activation is to be avoided for constant powers. Of course, you can use an Activation limitation and label it "Danger Sense" if you want...

[MitchellS]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Help me understand Hero rules here...

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought RSR was a "roll once, it works from then on" kind of thing, with -1 / 10AP penalty. Adding "Instant" essentially converts it to act like an Activation Roll, and SHOULD provide the same limitation (after adding the two together)... ? Please correct if wrong somewhere.

 

My mental shorthand has always been that RSR is to be avoided for instant powers, and Activation is to be avoided for constant powers. Of course, you can use an Activation limitation and label it "Danger Sense" if you want...

For a constant power RSR is a roll once limitation [until the power is turned off]. For instant powers RSR is a roll each time it is activated limitation. In this instance both limitations [RSR and Instant] are correct. RSR is to activate the power and instant is to make it stop working at the end of the character's phase. The armor only lasts for that 1 segment. If you attack the character on the very next segment he is armorless.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

I thought RSR was a "roll once' date=' it works from then on" kind of thing, with -1 / 10AP penalty. Adding "Instant" essentially converts it to act like an Activation Roll, and SHOULD provide the same limitation (after adding the two together)... ? Please correct if wrong somewhere.[/quote']

 

I don't think RSR and Instant mesh well. RSR allows activation, after which the power should remain on. The roll in the example given would be 6- (13 less 7 for AP/10), but if activation succeeds, the power would remain in effect for the rest of the phase.

 

For this type of ability, I would be more inclined to use Act 13- (as 13- is the character's danger sense roll) and perhaps "not vs attacks which Danger Sense could not sense" (either -1/4 or -0). In my opinion, Act 13- is far less "limiting" than RSR resulting in a 6- roll, especially combined with Instant.

 

My mental shorthand has always been that RSR is to be avoided for instant powers' date=' and Activation is to be avoided for constant powers. Of course, you can use an Activation limitation and label it "Danger Sense" if you want...[/quote']

 

I think the two are fundamentally different limitations. RSR for an instant power requires a roll every time, but the odds of success can be enhanced by restricting the power level used. RSR for constant powers is even better, as the power can be maintained once activated (other than that "instant" limitation in this case). Enhancing RSR success with xp is pretty easy - boost the skill roll.

 

Activation is a fixed roll which does not vary. Enhancing it is more costly, in most cases, since I have to change the limitation itself.

 

With a non-variable Danger Sense roll of 13- to activate Armor that does not vary, I would be inclined to take the Activation Roll limitation - making the roll against one opponent should not mean the armor is there against anyone else who attacks in the next second or so, so I find RSR/Instant kludgy. If you buy up your Danger Sense, buy down the limitation. With 75 AP, RSR results in a 6- success chance, assuming the character doesn't decide to try for less armor (a choice which makes no sense to me for this power construct).

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Personally' date=' I'm stuck on why "Danger Sense Dodging" is defined as the ability to take a hit instead of the ability to avoid one.[/quote']

 

Because with OCV Levels, AoE attacks, dumb luck and a dozen other factors, a high DCV just isn't that reliable a defense. Spider-men and Nightcrawlers seem to go down a lot easier in Hero than they do in the comics.

 

Armor bought as a last-minute "roll-with-the punch" and tied to Dex or Danger Sense rolls helps Artful Dodgers last through a combat without compromising their concept.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

Danger sense dodging is not a Hero power, it is a power built using Hero powers, and the name is wrong*: it does not simulate dodging, or it would work against, for example, entangles.

 

Similarly the excellent counter example, ThumpProof, is not what it says on the box: it doesn't allow you to toughen up so that you don't feel it or, for example, entangle would work.

 

It seems to me that the problem with these powers is that they are badly designed for the effect that is apparently desired. They are not illegal or wrong, just not well thought out**.

 

You could swap the names and they would be good to go....then you just need to worry about game balance.

 

 

 

 

*the distinction was included because Hero powers are supposed to be 'generic', whereas I think a power you specifically build and name should correlate to the stated design criteria.

 

 

**no criticism implied of MitchellS who was clearly using reflection to point out absurdity, and in a most effective way IMO.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Question about "DANGER SENSE DODGING"

 

The USPD build is maybe ok for a low realism game.

 

But, if you want to be even semi-realistic in you game, using defenses to simulate not being hit has one MAJOR PROBLEM. To really make sense you have to buy EVERY type of defense which none of the proposed builds that I've seen are suggesting. I'm talking about Power Defense, or any other applicable defenses to attacks like: NND, Flash, Drain, Grab (STR, TK or ForceW), etc.. 'attacks' that Danger Sense should go off for but that Armor would not defend against. And I haven't even began to talk about knockback which other posters already mentioned earlier.

 

I agree that DCV levels alone are not always enough because they are not applicable to DiveFCover and maybe even RollWPunch. But Overall Levels can be used for characteristic rolls (which is what DFC boils down to). And with a limitation that they can only be used for defensive actions based on Danger Sense (-3/4 to -1) it ends up at about the same cost as basic DCV levels. It might even make sense to buy the character a little extra Leaping or Running with the same limitations if AOE attacks are a major concern.

 

HM