[Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

[cursed]

I'm concerned about lethality of the system. I had 4th edition of the Hero System and Fantasy Hero+2 companions. IIRC, system was lethal. Normal STR 16 barbarian could land such a mighty blow that no normal man could take it and live.

 

I'm thinking about purchasing new 5th edition, revised, but I'm not sure if the system suits for me and my gaming group. We use Shadow World, but somewhat toned down-version. Currently we play with GURPS 4th ed., and I probably will not ever stop using it.

 

My concerns:

1) Normal (unarmored) humans are really fragile and die easily when hit by battle-axe. I'd like see them have a decent chance not to die instantly.

2) How current rules work in low-fantasy genres.

3) Speed. Is it really useful in low-fantasy? If I plan to use SPD, then maybe average SPD will be 4-6(system will be more fine-grained then??)

 

Any pointers/insight/helpful thoughts on this one?

 

-Cursed

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

1) You have GOT to be misreading the rules. A normal is almost impossible to kill with a single attack, even if it's a haymaker from a _Titan_.

Normals don't die until -8 BODY, they just start dying at 0. If you need them to be a little more survivable, have them start with 10 BODY - 20 BODY is enough to keep them from dying to 2d6 or so killing attacks.

 

2) Be more specific.

 

3) You could do 4-6 SPD, but 2-4 is pretty detailed. SPD 2 thugs suck and are easy to outshine, SPD 3 average notable characters are more evenly matched, and SPD 4 quick guys are scary...

 

Obviously, SPD 5+ would thus be terrifying...

[cursed]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Ok.

 

2) Can the system be tweaked to be gritty/realistic? It's not larger-than-life playing style we are after.

Following are Fantasy Hero-specific: Are there any rules/ideas for adventuring(travelling distances, diseases, infections...) that make sense? I prefer simulationistic(?) style to abstract rules(like D20), that is, tactical combat, like in GURPS, works for us.

 

3) SPD 5+ would not be problematic, if average SPD is something like 4. It just doubles the resolution. (Increasing SPD by one wouldn't be +50 boost to speed anymore)...

 

-Cursed

[MarioTani]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

2. I use Hero for Fantasy. The matter here is what you mean to be "gritty/realistic".

I usually use an High Fantasy Realistic Setting, there's magic there's a lot of it, but not everyone use it.

The "normal" (not mages or magic using) follow normal world law of physiscs and the like.

 

In general the greatest problem that arises is the lifting capacity of the players, as it is easy to have them with 15 -18 strenght. I use logic in that (and some tweaking from FH as for the armor).

 

Travelling: there a complete section in FH that is based on the velocity of the character to make it possible calculating the distance travelled in a given time over a given terrain.

 

Diseases & Infections: in FH are left to the GM (you can find some guideline in HARN MASTER )

 

Tactical COmbat: There a chapter about it (battles, sieges things like those) but I've never used it so I can't judge them gamewise.

 

3. SPD in a Fantasy Hero campaign with 150 Starting point (75+75) and NCM it's difficult to arrive at SPD 5 as DEX ususally is lower than 20 so the minimum cost to have SPD 5 is 30 points. (to which you have to add 1 point per point of DEX under 20 and 3 point per point of DEX over 10)

To make an example:

DEX 15 SPD 5 costs: DEX 15 SPD 35 total 50

DEX 18 SPD 5 costs: DEX 24 SPD 32 total 56

DEX 20 SPD 5 costs DEX 30 SPD 30 total 60

 

That's a lot of points on a 150 base. It's not impossible, but it's rare.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

The default combat in HERO tends to be a little cinematic, e.g. well suited to action heroes in any genre, but the ruleset has modular options to tweak it to be pretty "gritty." Combat can be very tactical, with lots of options that you can readily add or subtract as desired. Same thing with lethality; your past campaign may have used the optional Hit Location rules, which can make combat very deadly, but those and similar rules can easily be left out.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Valdorian Age is supposed to be pure sword & sorcery, with a "Low Fantasy" feel. Does anyone know whether it is addresing mundane matters such as disease?

 

[Aside: I generaly only see "disease" as part of specific creatures or scenarios in Fantasy. If I'm going to have a chance that Mervyn the Magnificent has a cold and will suffer penalties, I need to assess those odds for al the opponents as well, if I'm to be fair. That's too much work, frankly.]

[MitchellS]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

1) Normal (unarmored) humans are really fragile and die easily when hit by battle-axe. I'd like see them have a decent chance not to die instantly.

I think humans die easily when hit by a battle-axe in the real world too.

 

But looking at the averages, a battle axe does 2d6+1 in the hands of an 18 strength character. That's 8 body on average. A normal can have a 10 body. So on average the battle-axe won't kill the normal unless you're using the optional hit location rules.

 

2) How current rules work in low-fantasy genres.

As I don't have Fantasy Hero I can't really address this question. I would assume the book contains rules for travel times on various surfaces and some diseases. I think infections is something you need to decide for yourself as that is not so common to the genre. All you need to do is make a list of infections and how they might effect you. I'm not familiar with infections so I can't really help you with that.

 

3) Speed. Is it really useful in low-fantasy? If I plan to use SPD, then maybe average SPD will be 4-6(system will be more fine-grained then??)

I'm a little confused by your comment here. You say you want a low-fantasy feel but then talk about speeds in a superhero range. The speed range for a low-fantasy game would be 2-4 with 3 being the average. Only exceptionally quick people would have a 4, and probably only some monsters and gods would go 5 or more.

 

There are many wants to simulate more attacks besides speed. Sweep and Rapidfire are two good examples of that. You can also purchase counter-strike maneuvers with damage shield for an exceptionally skilled combatant.

 

I personally like the speed chart, though I don't believe it has anything to do with realism. I think it can give a nice flow to the game and makes using combat maneuvers and tactics more essential [which is good in a low-fantasy game, IMO].

[Guest joen00b]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

I use Characteristic Maxima, and for my games top Speed is 4, no more. The average is 3, and for average Joes, it's 2. Is it lethal? Yes it is.

 

You put a sword in an average Joe's hands, and ask him to try to cleave you in two with it. That's pretty deadly right there, and HERO is good at emulating this lethality. I agree with it.

 

Then again, the characters are Heroes in the making, so there should be some exceptions.

 

1) Armor is rPD. This is pretty much a given, and since the average Joe will only do 3-4 body on average, and a max of 6, anyone in Plate Mail is pretty much safe from getting killed, it's going to take a Zweihander, Polearm or AP missile weapon (or Find Weakness) to get through his crab like shell. The average hero uses 3-4 rPD armor, so they'll get nicks and cuts, taking some body damage here or there, but on average, should not take any.

 

2) I don't use Stun. When the Heroes face off against 10-20 Goblins, it's straight body damage, and no stun. This is a heroic campaign. My group are the Heroes. Cinematically, they'd be the Rock, or Arnold cleaving through the no name extras till they get to the main boss. For this reason, underlings and minions, and low level creatures don't getto do stun, and additionally, neither does the group. It saves time, it saves lives (20 guys doing an average of 5-10 stun getting through per attack can knock the party unconcious quickly), and it saves math. Less paperwork, everything. But, when we get to the main boss, Stun is back on the menu, it does count.

 

3) I fudge rolls. I'm not going to lie, I'm the GM, and it's my world. If I don't want the character to die, perhaps I won't do the damage I rolled on the dice. After all, I also record the damage done to the characters just like the players do. It allows me to secretly add an element of suspense to the game by ALMOST beating the group, but they somehow pull through in the end. Believe me, as long as the group dsoesn't know for sure, they'll get much more enjoyment out of barely surviving a fight, than walking all over the bad guys, or, ultimately getting beaten and killed.

 

Those are the tricks I use to keep combat from one hit one kill on my players. Kobolds and Goblins deserve a 1 hit 1 kill ratio:P. Just don't mess with the orcs in my world, they knock the snot out of ya.

[tancred]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Kobolds and Goblins deserve a 1 hit 1 kill ratio:P. Just don't mess with the orcs in my world' date=' they knock the snot out of ya.[/quote']

 

Ya know, after MMM I thought we goblins could catch a break. But NOOOO!!!

The ethnic slurs just go on, and on, and on, and on......

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, try making goblins into archers. We don't go down as easy when you have to wade through arrows to get to us.

[Guest joen00b]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Actually, there was a Dragon magazine published some years back (which I still have), a gentlemen authored an Article called: 'Tucker's Kobolds'. I believe Tucker was his last name, though it could have been his first, but that's neither here nor there. What made these Kobolds exceptional was their high intelligence. IN D&D terms, we're talking 15-18.

 

Well, these kobolds, being genius' and all, knew they were weak little beings and could never stand up to an armored guy with a sword, no matter how talented they could get, so they decided to use their brains. They devised clever traps and consecutive numbers of traps so foolhardy adventures would not hit just one, but a succession of traps that would lead to their doom.

 

I loved this idea, so I incorporated it into Goblins in my world. To this day, my older players that have run into these critters visibly shudder at the mention of 'Goblins in the tunnels'.

 

So, they may be 1 hit, 1 kill, but just try getting close enough to make that hit.

[tancred]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Actually, there was a Dragon magazine published some years back (which I still have), a gentlemen authored an Article called: 'Tucker's Kobolds'. I believe Tucker was his last name, though it could have been his first, but that's neither here nor there. What made these Kobolds exceptional was their high intelligence. IN D&D terms, we're talking 15-18.

 

Well, these kobolds, being genius' and all, knew they were weak little beings and could never stand up to an armored guy with a sword, no matter how talented they could get, so they decided to use their brains. They devised clever traps and consecutive numbers of traps so foolhardy adventures would not hit just one, but a succession of traps that would lead to their doom.

 

I loved this idea, so I incorporated it into Goblins in my world. To this day, my older players that have run into these critters visibly shudder at the mention of 'Goblins in the tunnels'.

 

So, they may be 1 hit, 1 kill, but just try getting close enough to make that hit.

 

I must remember this.

 

I got hooked on goblins playing The Fantasy Trip 20 years ago. Goblins made excellent PCs in that system, and were even described as the dominant race in one county in the main kingdom of the published world.

It was suggested that they made excellent archers and fair wizards, and I found that to be the case.

[Old Man]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

 

My concerns:

1) Normal (unarmored) humans are really fragile and die easily when hit by battle-axe. I'd like see them have a decent chance not to die instantly.

 

You're not serious are you? No offense meant but read that line out loud to yourself or to your friends. Heroes are supposed to be able to take a couple hits, not normal unarmored humans.

 

3) Speed. Is it really useful in low-fantasy? If I plan to use SPD, then maybe average SPD will be 4-6(system will be more fine-grained then??)

 

-Cursed

 

Use lower Speeds. It works better for fantasy.

[Old Man]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Normal STR 16 barbarian could land such a mighty blow that no normal man could take it and live.

 

Well... yeah. Especially if you use critical hits and/or hit location.

 

1) Normal (unarmored) humans are really fragile and die easily when hit by battle-axe. I'd like see them have a decent chance not to die instantly.

 

Lightly armored combatants in FH are advised to block and dodge a lot. Typically these are the high-dex adventurers anyway.

 

2) How current rules work in low-fantasy genres.

 

They work fine, although PCs should be more careful in an environment without magical healing. Low-point-total campaigns might see an increase in granularity.

 

3) Speed. Is it really useful in low-fantasy? If I plan to use SPD, then maybe average SPD will be 4-6(system will be more fine-grained then??)

 

I've toyed with that idea, and I've also toyed with the idea of just throwing out SPD for fantasy and assigning everyone a default SPD of 3. SPD is a really godlike stat, as befits its cost of 10 cp; it's extremely hard to defeat someone who has a higher SPD. If this is your first Hero game in a long time and you insist on modifying SPD I would recommend that latter modification over the former, at least at first.

[cursed]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Thanks for the all helpful answers!

 

You're not serious are you? No offense meant but read that line out loud to yourself or to your friends. Heroes are supposed to be able to take a couple hits, not normal unarmored humans.

 

Sure I am. I don't like the idea that people die in the instant their hit points reach a certain value. It doesn't happen in the real world, AFAIK. Bleeding/shock/infection is what kills people actually (IMHO, I'm not a doctor of any degree, and I don't want to give you an impression of any authorative position/opinion).

 

OTOH, rules sound more forgiving/kind that I remembered them to be.

 

About that SPD-hassle:

The change I'm about introduce in my campaign is not unbalancing in any way, as the *average* SPD will be 6. It just gives me more fine-grained scale to operate. I don't like the idea that human just a little bit quicker(a minimum, +1 SPD) than an average human has a speed boost of +50%. Now, its only a c. 17% quicker. And SPD-attributes of all creatures are adjusted as before, using absolute values, not relative. (i.e. monster that had a SPD of 6 will have a SPD of (6-2 + 6 = 10, that is 4 points higher than normal PC/NPC/creature/other)... And this is to degrade the importance of SPD. And to set the differences in SPD to not so dramatic effect.

 

I think humans die easily when hit by a battle-axe in the real world too.

 

But looking at the averages, a battle axe does 2d6+1 in the hands of an 18 strength character. That's 8 body on average. A normal can have a 10 body. So on average the battle-axe won't kill the normal unless you're using the optional hit location rules.

 

Thumbs up. I didn't remember/realize that the rules weren't that deadly(as I recalled). I wonder if they changed a lot between 4th and 5th editions.

 

I'm a little confused by your comment here. You say you want a low-fantasy feel but then talk about speeds in a superhero range. The speed range for a low-fantasy game would be 2-4 with 3 being the average. Only exceptionally quick people would have a 4, and probably only some monsters and gods would go 5 or more.

 

No SPD attributes are going to be in superhero range, as the average SPD will be 6. Just multiply all SPD-attributes by 3, and there you are. Well, almost. That doesn't affect new characters. And see above for how to adjust/calculate SPD for something that doesn't conform with average values. Nothing changes but the default/base value of SPD(2 to 6). So, +2 to SPD(4) will be SPD8....

 

And, I don't want to every character to be in the range of STR/DEX, 15-20. I'd like to see values like 10-14. Talented people could have stats much higher that those values. (No hard limits).

 

The default combat in HERO tends to be a little cinematic, e.g. well suited to action heroes in any genre, but the ruleset has modular options to tweak it to be pretty "gritty." Combat can be very tactical, with lots of options that you can readily add or subtract as desired. Same thing with lethality; your past campaign may have used the optional Hit Location rules, which can make combat very deadly, but those and similar rules can easily be left out.

 

This is just what I fear. I remember using hit locations resulting in much deadlier game. Playing the game without hit locations will not be an option. Some softer approach, maybe?

 

(I hope that someone understands what I've garbled here. English is not my native language, and I've consumed about 9 liters of beer.)

 

I'm willing to be more specific, but I don't have an access to internet until monday....

 

-Cursed

[CourtFool]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Please correct me if I am wrong…Axe, Battle is 2d6, STR Min 13 so let's say an 18 STR so we can get a nice even extra DC. You are looking at 2d6+1. I believe most people agree average roll is 3.5 so that is about 8 BODY. That is enough to put an average person (8-10 BODY) down to 0 or seriously close. However, 0 BODY does not mean dead. Negative BODY is dead. So at the very least you need another good solid whack to finish them off. If we say a 2 or 3 STUN multiplier that is 16 or 24 STUN. That means they are, at the very least, stunned and most likely unconscious. Use the bleeding rules and they bleed out shortly. Lethal, but we are talking about an 18 STR which should not be that common. Also, we are not including any resistant defenses.

 

If you do not want your characters dropped so easily, allow them Combat Luck or let them wear some armor, which they are likely to do anyway.

I really think changing everyone's SPD is a bad idea. It affects so many things a tweak that seems so simple really creates some bizarre effects. If you do not want it to be such a large factor in combat place a combat limit on it to 3. As for the granularity you are looking for…I think DEX gives you plenty. Especially if everyone is a 2 or 3 SPD. Going first is really important so people will buy more DEX, Lightning Reflexes, Fast Draw and maybe even bonuses to PER.

 

[sbarron]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Sure I am. I don't like the idea that people die in the instant their hit points reach a certain value. It doesn't happen in the real world' date=' AFAIK. Bleeding/shock/infection is what kills people actually (IMHO, I'm not a doctor of any degree, and I don't want to give you an impression of any authorative position/opinion).[/quote']The problem with most RPGs (not just HERO or any system with HPs) is that characters in the game tend to not act like people would in real life. Most people, "in the real world," that take a good "thwack" from a sword or axe, just wouldn't continue fighting. As was said above, they would be bleeding, likely stunned, and generally out of the battle. As a result, they would have to chance to die from infection, disease, etc. In most RPGs you just get mindless opponents that battle on until they are dead.

 

So yes, lots of characters die right when they run out of Body or Hit Points. But that's because of the way the GM plays the game. If he wanted, he could use the same rules to simulate something much more "realistic."

[Fireg0lem]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

I currently run a low-fantasy game, and it works fine. It's not particularly lethal if people get medical attention when they go down. Were it not for proper use of paramedics, it would be a lot more lethal, because I fully enforce the Bleeding rules.

 

In fact, it even came up with an ogre who was trying to kill of leaders of a human alliance during a battle - he had to coup de grace them or they would have lived.

 

I've been running starting from 0+50 points, now up to 150 or so total. We started with 1 SPD 2 character and 3 SPD 3 characters, we know have 3 SPD 3 characters and 1 SPD 4 character. I generally enforce that normal warriors have SPD 2, "elite" characters are SPD 3, and only unique people can have SPD 4. Works fine.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

This is just what I fear. I remember using hit locations resulting in much deadlier game. Playing the game without hit locations will not be an option. Some softer approach' date=' maybe?[/quote']

 

It would help me to help you if you could explain why it would not be an option to play the game without hit locations, since you want a less deadly game. That is, you want your game to be less lethal to characters, but Hit Locations are normally added to increase lethality. That sounds contradictory.

[Just Joe]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

:

1) Normal (unarmored) humans are really fragile and die easily when hit by battle-axe. I'd like see them have a decent chance not to die instantly.

2) How current rules work in low-fantasy genres. / Can the system be tweaked to be gritty/realistic?

3) Speed. Is it really useful in low-fantasy? If I plan to use SPD, then maybe average SPD will be 4-6(system will be more fine-grained then??)

 

1) Others have addressed this effectively. I would add that if you want your PC's to be more-or-less normal unarmored humans, you might want to encourage them to buy up their body a bit to give them greater survivability.

 

1/2) The optional bleeding and hit location rules add to grittiness and realism. But note that while the former does not add to the risk of instant death, it does result in more wounds which are eventually fatal. The latter leads to more comparitively minor wounds (due to hand and foot wounds), but also does increase the risk of instant death (due to head wounds). But then, a battle axe to the head should have a good chance of killing an unarmored normal outright.

 

2) I have no specific suggestions regarding the details of your question, but I think Hero works quite well for this kind of game. Do not worry too much about detailed rules for everything. For example, I treat 20 miles as a standard march under good conditions. If the PC's want to push it, make them burn long-term END (but just make a judgement call on how much).

 

3) I am very sympathetic with your desire for a more fine-grained speed chart, but I would caution you against tinkering with the rules, especially if you are not very experienced with the system. I've tinkered with speed in a few ways over the years, and have never been happy with the results. Endurance, recoveries, and running speed are all influenced by speed, to name just a few. If you feel the need to do something, consider raising the normal maximum on speed from 4 to 6*, encourage PC's to buy 3-5 (or maybe 4-6 speeds), and make any NPC with any significant combat experience at least speed 3. But frankly, even if all PC's have 3 and 4 speeds and most NPC combatants have the same, the slight variation in speeds, together with the abilty to abort or hold action makes things significantly more interesting than a standard one-action-per-turn system.

 

* or allow each PC to exceed one normal characteristic max by 25% without paying double.

 

Good luck, whatever you decide, and keep us posted on how it goes.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

It would help me to help you if you could explain why it would not be an option to play the game without hit locations' date=' since you want a less deadly game. That is, you want your game to be less lethal to characters, but Hit Locations are normally added to increase lethality. That sounds contradictory. [/quote']

 

That said, you could modify the hit location chart, perhaps by removing the BODY multipliers (and just using the STUN modifiers).

[cndblank]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Hero actually does a good job simulating battle (other than it is too easy to knock someone out).

 

People have been stabbed with a knife 48 times and lived.

 

In a battle you don't want to instantly kill someone as much as you want to put him down and out of the battle.

 

A bad blow to the sword arm or a crippling leg wound works just fine. Bleeding to death works great too. A gut wound was a death sentence. If you have the time then you finish him otherwise you get ready for the next and try not to trip on the fallen.

 

Running away is also good because that is where most of the killing happens. And it happens almost exclusively to the side running away.

 

A person that bleeds to death is just as dead as a person that got their head taken off. It just takes a little longer.

 

If you read some descriptions of battlefields, the cries of the wounded were every where. Those that could got up and got off the battlefield but many couldn't.

 

I think Hollywood and fantasy novels sanitized that aspect of the battlefield.

 

As a side note, I also expect that if there was healing magic then holding the battlefield become very important because you can heal your wounded and keep your enemy from healing his.

 

Even a little healing magic could stop bleeding, prevent death by infection, allow some surgeries, and keep a gut wound from being a death sentence. I also expect veteran troops will be much more common and very very determine to not break and run.

 

Honor demands you hold your line so that you can bring the wounded to a healer. After all the wounded would be your brothers, cousins, and comrades, and the next time it could be you.

[The Hyborian]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Overall, Champions is much more lethal than something like D&D. Someone without protection who gets wacked with a axe or sword is going to be hurtin'. Not necessarily dead, but certainly hurtin'. You can tweak down lethality in number of ways.

 

One is to not use the optional imparing/disabling/bleeding rules. This is less "realistic" but lets characters stay on their feet acting until they run out of body.

 

Another way is to allow pretty good armor. Add a few points to the listed armor values in the books and characters survive longer.

 

A third way to to have character focus on Combat Values in character design, rather than body. (get away from the Hit Point mentality). Those goblins are a lot less deadly if they have 5 less points of CV than the heroes do. I like this approach, as you end up with heros that parry and avoid dammage rather than soak it up.

 

Lastly, be generous with healing magic. Characters aren't going to be so paranoid about catching an arrow in the throat if magical healing is fairly accessable, especially to non-spell casters in the form of potions, salves, pixie dust, what-have-you.

 

The Hyborian

[badger3k]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Thanks for the all helpful answers!

 

Sure I am. I don't like the idea that people die in the instant their hit points reach a certain value. It doesn't happen in the real world, AFAIK. Bleeding/shock/infection is what kills people actually (IMHO, I'm not a doctor of any degree, and I don't want to give you an impression of any authorative position/opinion).

 

OTOH, rules sound more forgiving/kind that I remembered them to be.

 

Well, that's pretty much what Hero has. Even if you don't use the optional wounding and bleeding rules, you still need to go to negative to die. Now, going unconscious and losing Body until stabilized can effectively simulate the bleeding to death part. I consider shock a component of both Stun and Body (what percentage depends on how you consider it). A weapon that has a lot of shock relative to physical damage might have a higher stun multiplier, unless the shock is more along the lines of the heart stopping (which would put it into the Body camp). Nothing is actually changed, just the way you look at the stats.

 

This is just what I fear. I remember using hit locations resulting in much deadlier game. Playing the game without hit locations will not be an option. Some softer approach, maybe?

-Cursed

 

You can also just use the hit locations for emphasis and interpret results in dramatic fashion. You can say that a hit to the hand means a Dex roll to retain your grasp of a weapon, or a hit to the head might mean an Ego roll to avoid being stunned. The attack does no more damage, but effects are based upon the story rather than the table, know what I mean. Likewise, depending on the situation, you can more or less arbitrarily decide on additional damage (a head hit to a man in full plate might have less of an effect than a head hit to an old, unarmored peasant).

 

The other options mentoned can work as well.

[badger3k]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

Overall, Champions is much more lethal than something like D&D. Someone without protection who gets wacked with a axe or sword is going to be hurtin'. Not necessarily dead, but certainly hurtin'. You can tweak down lethality in number of ways.

The Hyborian

 

Agreed with that - I haven't run into Hero characters with 200+ Body (although some Dragons, Demons, or Gods might qualify). Despite the "luck" aspect of the D&D hp system, it still makes a big discrepancy, especially since the difference between a first level character and a 20th level character can be some training and a couple months of game time.

 

A hit on a 20th level character is suddenly a weak hit that barely touches the target, when that exact same hit on a low level character cuts his head off. The score is the same, but the results vary by the target. Hero doesn't have that - the hit is the same no matter what the target is, but the target's characteristics change the effects of the blow. Personally, I prefer the Hero method.

 

A good way to simulate the Conan-type character, wading through bodies of foes while only being scratched would be High-DCV (making all those scratches that look bad just a visual effect of missing), Combat Luck (the rationale being the armor reflects his stamina and ability to make big hits into small ones), or even damage reduction (perhaps good vs minions only).

[Curufea]

Re: [Would-Be Hero-GM]Lethality

 

We had problems with that recently - the GM wanted to threaten the PCs with crossbows in a D&D game. As we were 8th level, we could ignore less than 5 crossbows pointed at us - they had no chance of killing us. Stupid system.