2006 Schedule Blurbs

[megaplayboy]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

I believe if you could read as well as you write you'd see that I was discussing Champions' products: "One of the biggest complaints I have with Champions genre products stems from the idea that DoJ produces very little original material."

my bad--well, I think one of the problems is what we might call "legacy" support--that all of the components of previous CU have to be integrated and updated. So, inevitably, half or more of Champions product is just to fulfill the need to update and republish out of print material. I'd like to see Silver Age Champs before GAC(3rd ed.)--heck, i'd rather see Iron Age Champions or Galactic Champions Companions I & II(one of them containing that frickin' Malvan Ultradreadnought writeup) before GAC(much as I liked the first two GACs). I have no idea how DoJ would get an accurate metric of market demand until they actually release the product, though...

[MitchellS]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

my bad--well' date=' I think one of the problems is what we might call "legacy" support--that all of the components of previous CU have to be integrated and updated. So, inevitably, half or more of Champions product is just to fulfill the need to update and republish out of print material. I'd like to see Silver Age Champs before GAC(3rd ed.)--heck, i'd rather see Iron Age Champions or Galactic Champions Companions I & II(one of them containing that frickin' Malvan Ultradreadnought writeup) before GAC(much as I liked the first two GACs). I have no idea how DoJ would get an accurate metric of market demand until they actually release the product, though...[/quote']

I agree with you. It's sad to see so many current Champions lines ,which could have real potential to go somewhere, like Galactic Champions and the upcoming Teen Champions ending up with no support. I'd love to see more GC material on the schedule. And you're right, Silver Age Champions would be new and something different and, IMO, a better product than a 3E Golden Age Champions. Unfortunately for 2006 it doesn't look like DoJ is willing to test any Champions waters at all.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

All depending on the availability of cash, but...

 

Nobles, Knights, and Necromancers: If I get into an FH game, maybe.

Ultimate Mentalist: The original is probably my least favorite of Steve's 4th ed work. On the other hand, Steve's had a lot more time to think about the issues, so it's a possible.

Stronghold: After DEMON, Allen's Champs stuff is getting a free pass from me.

Golden Age Champions: I expect Darren to blow away previous versions of this book. Darren's got a far better grasp on the GA than I've seen from past authors, so almost certainly.

Psychic Wars: I expect this to be pretty good, though "Scanners Meets X-Files" is not really a concept that really appeals to me.

The Celtic Bestiary: Depends on whether I like Tuala Morn, which I expect to.

Thrilling Places: Absolutely. As an old JI fan, I'll be supporting this line above all others.

Tuala Morn: Of all of Steve's stuff, this is the book that I'm most looking forward to, Pulp Hero excepted.

Pulp Resource Book: Absolutely.

Ultimate Skill: This is almost certainly going to be an industry standard, but I'm not sure I need it. I'll wait and see.

Villians, Vandals and Vermin: Absolutely.

Horror HERO Depends on the author.

Champions Universe Update: Universe development is very dear to my heart, so this is a definite pick.

Danger Zones: If I guess correctly, this'll be a gamer version of "Most Dangerous Places". Given that my local group loves modern/merc gaming, I may pick it up for them.

The Underworld Sourcebook: Almost certain to be useful in my Champs game.

Possible Leatherbound Special Edition: I'll wait and see what this product ends up becoming.

 

Tuala Morn is my pick for the "if I'm strapped for cash I'm still picking this up" book, with the Champs Universe update as runner-up.

[archermoo]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

Says a man who read DoJ's "Announcement" about sales being down and the company going out of business if people didn't start buying books.

 

Actually, that isn't what the announcement said. It said nothing about the compnay going out of business, except for a reassurance that that isn't what is happening. They simply made a decision to change their previous policy of encouraging people to buy their products from their FLGS and go with a policy that is pretty much the standard for the industry instead. Which is to say, please buy your books from us, especially if you don't have any other good alternative. They also mentioned that the cue for this was a general sales downturn across the industry.

 

Then lots of people that either have reading comprehension problems or just assume that they know more that the people at the company that are making the announcements went off and started saying that HERO is going out of business, some going so far as to say that they aren't publishing books at all anymore.

 

Heck, there are quite a few people out there that had been special ordering all of their HERO stuff from their local store, stores that wouldn't order the books for stock. Or even set up a standing order for them. But they kept buying from that not so FLGS because HERO Games had asked them to. So now for some sales HERO gets a larger slice of the pie, and some people that were having problems getting their books have a better alternative. A win-win situation.

[archermoo]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

Oh, and as far as purchases go, I don't see anything on either the 2005 or 2006 list that is a reason for me to change my current policy of "1 of everything".

[Mightybec]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

Yes' date=' of course, so producing a third Golden Age Champions, a third Stronghold, and a CU Update [not to mention that a large percentage of villains in VVV who will also be pre-existing characters'] is the way to go because the new fans outnumber the old ones by such a great margin.

 

New ideas are where the money is at.

You're related to Eeyore, right?

[lgguy]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

I have to agree with Archermoo (except I don't have enough money for 1 of everything ) Although I understand getting upset with updated material as opposed to all new original material, for some of us (like me), I have only known about HERO for about a year so all of the books are new to me.

 

I know that the complaint was about Champions material and I am more of a Fantasy/Star Hero guy. But, from reading between the lines in some of Steve's posts, I think that a lot of the Hero Universe stuff like Turakian Age, Valdorian Age, Terran Empire *is* totally new for 5th edition...again at least for Fantasy/Star Hero.

[MitchellS]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

Actually' date=' that isn't what the announcement said. It said nothing about the compnay going out of business, except for a reassurance that that isn't what is happening.[/quote']

 

From the "Announcement":

 

"If things keep going the way they are, the blunt truth is that Hero Games won't remain an ongoing concern — it will, sooner or later, grind to a halt. The way things stand right now, sales of our books simply aren't high enough to sustain the company in the long term."

[Mightybec]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

From the "Announcement":

 

"If things keep going the way they are, the blunt truth is that Hero Games won't remain an ongoing concern — it will, sooner or later, grind to a halt. The way things stand right now, sales of our books simply aren't high enough to sustain the company in the long term."

Wasn't that just before the 'So this is what we're gonna change' part?

[MitchellS]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

Wasn't that just before the 'So this is what we're gonna change' part?

And what does that have to do with the fact that 2.5 of 4 Champions books for next year are rehashes?

 

Asking fans to buy from the online store doesn't help if the company is not producing new Champions material which the fans want to buy. You can't expect Champions fans to keep buying the same books over and over and over. Only WotC has a large enough audience to get away with that.

[archermoo]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

From the "Announcement":

 

"If things keep going the way they are, the blunt truth is that Hero Games won't remain an ongoing concern — it will, sooner or later, grind to a halt. The way things stand right now, sales of our books simply aren't high enough to sustain the company in the long term."

 

Oooh, oooh, oooh, an out of context quote. I love those.

 

To clear things up, the message starts with talk about how another gaming company is having trouble, and about the general downturn in sales in the industry. And that while HERO is currently doing well, they can see potential problems down the road if things don't change. Which is the point the above out of context quote comes from.

 

So, basically, a company staffed with people they like is having problems. Sales of HERO products have gone down, but they are still doing okay. However, if those sales continue going down, there is the potential for problems. Then the other 90% of the announcement goes on to explain what they are doing to head that possibility off. It is called being proactive. Unfortunately it is too hard to write an announcement like that in such a fashion that it is impossible for isolated quotes to be taken out of context.

 

But hey, feel free to keep quoting things out of context and pretending it means something. It is after all a free country.

 

Personally, I'm just going to keep buying their stuff and enjoying the excellent job they are doing. I didn't really buy many of the supplements for previous versions of HERO, even though I've been playing since '81. Why? Because I wasn't impressed by the few that I looked at, and I couldn't afford to buy stuff that I wasn't impressed by. So I at least am an "old timer" that is happy they are doing updated versions of some of the older stuff, in addition to the great new stuff that they are putting out.

[Mightybec]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

And what does that have to do with the fact that 2.5 of 4 Champions books for next year are rehashes?

 

Asking fans to buy from the online store doesn't help if the company is not producing new Champions material which the fans want to buy. You can't expect Champions fans to keep buying the same books over and over and over. Only WotC has a large enough audience to get away with that.

Not every Hero Games customer is sitting in a wet pair of depends and telling WWI stories like you are. I've never owned a previous Stronghold book, and would like to see a 5th edition copy of it. See this is how it works. Crusty doesn't buy, Mightybec does. Every hero gamer is not a long time veteran. We were all newbies once.

[MitchellS]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

Oooh, oooh, oooh, an out of context quote. I love those.

 

To clear things up, the message starts with talk about how another gaming company is having trouble, and about the general downturn in sales in the industry. And that while HERO is currently doing well, they can see potential problems down the road if things don't change. Which is the point the above out of context quote comes from.

 

So, basically, a company staffed with people they like is having problems. Sales of HERO products have gone down, but they are still doing okay. However, if those sales continue going down, there is the potential for problems. Then the other 90% of the announcement goes on to explain what they are doing to head that possibility off. It is called being proactive. Unfortunately it is too hard to write an announcement like that in such a fashion that it is impossible for isolated quotes to be taken out of context.

 

But hey, feel free to keep quoting things out of context and pretending it means something. It is after all a free country.

 

Personally, I'm just going to keep buying their stuff and enjoying the excellent job they are doing. I didn't really buy many of the supplements for previous versions of HERO, even though I've been playing since '81. Why? Because I wasn't impressed by the few that I looked at, and I couldn't afford to buy stuff that I wasn't impressed by. So I at least am an "old timer" that is happy they are doing updated versions of some of the older stuff, in addition to the great new stuff that they are putting out.

It wasn't out of context at all. It was the last thought of a paragraph. It was a statement of action used to give weight to the ideas later in the announcement.

 

Turn off the fan-boy motor and realize I'm not attacking the company. I'm saying I'd like to see some original and new Champions material, and I don't think I'm alone in that regard.

[MitchellS]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

Not every Hero Games customer is sitting in a wet pair of depends and telling WWI stories like you are. I've never owned a previous Stronghold book' date=' and would like to see a 5th edition copy of it. See this is how it works. Crusty doesn't buy, Mightybec does. Every hero gamer is not a long time veteran. We were all newbies once.[/quote']

Your point was address by me far above. I see no reason to address it again.

[Mightybec]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

Your point was address by me far above. I see no reason to address it again.

Really? I'll give you a spare stamp, if you wish.

[Mightybec]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

Come on. I know you wanna.

[Mightybec]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

*picks at a puffy boil while looking at pocket watch*

[Toadmaster]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

One of the biggest complaints I have with Champions genre products stems from the idea that DoJ produces very little original material. You keep asking fans to continue to purchase the same general material which they have been purchasing for over 20 years: VIPER is just an update of the old Viper book, The Mystic World is just an update of The Ultimate Super-Mage and Mystic Masters, UNTIL is just an expansion of the material in Super Agents, the Bestiary come from 2 prior books, etc. I'm not saying the books do not expand upon older material but for the most part they are not offering new concepts. There seems to be little incentive to purchase a 5E book when you already have a serviceable 4E or 3E version of the same subject sitting on your self.

 

This brings me to Stronghold. What can you offer me in it that I can't already learn from the previous 2 Stronghold products? What's my incentive to purchase a sourcebook I have purchased twice before? I'm also asking for such upcoming books as Hidden Lands [with Atlantis information taken from the 4E version], Everyman [an updated Normals Unbound], and Enchanted Items.

 

Part of what I was hoping for from DoJ was some new directions, ideas, and concepts. What I seem to be getting more and more of is just 20 year old ideas and characters updated a second, third, or fourth time. Perhaps book sales would increase if people didn't feel as though they already owned all the Champions books you're trying to sell us.

 

I think Galactic Champions and the upcoming Teen Champions are steps in the right direction. Those books present some new ideas even if they are not as popular genres. I really wish I could see more Champions material which shows me something I have never seen before. It's getting harder and harder to stay enthused while reading the same old concepts over and over, IMO.

 

This is one of the best complaints about the quantity of Champions material I've seen. What I usually see is complaining that HERO is not making enough Champions material, when quite obviously Champs is getting the largest share. I can sympathize with you watching alot of rewrites that may or may not have much new material. I don't play champs so what is re-writes for me is substantially different from the 3rd or 4th ed I already have so I am happy, I kind of expected the Champs material to be the same but it sounds like that is not the case. Even with something like DC that was a big let down for me is still a good book I will use, it just is not what I had hoped for and expected (wanted more Eye for an Eye less HoJ). I would not have been to excited to buy a reprint of Fantasy HERO 4th ed, but 5th ed was practically all new so I was quite happy.

 

Kind of a rough spot when it comes to Champs, DoJ needs to put out the rewrites to provide details needed for newer players but the older players who have been around long enough to have an earlier edition or two are looking for the new and exciting products the other genres are getting.

[Toadmaster]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

Well since everyone else is giving opinions here is my $0.015 (hey I'm a government employee so I can't afford a whole $0.02)

 

Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers: Yes, never hurts to have NPC's

The Ultimate Mentalist: Yes

Stronghold: Nope, I don't do Champs

Golden Age Champions: Maybe, depends on how useful it is for other genres

Psychic Wars: Sure, not real high on my list but it sounds interesting

The Celtic Bestiary: Yep, sounds neat

Thrilling Places: Depends if this is real places or just a map book, but probably

Tuala Morn: Sure, I wasn't to interested in settings for FH but I've been happy with the Turakian age and Valdorian age so I'll be getting this one too.

Pulp Resource Guide: Yep, looking forward to Pulp so this is on my list

The Ultimate Skill: Probably, I hope this includes lots of ways to use skills as well as descriptions.

Villains, Vandals, And Vermin: Probably not since I don't play Champs

Horror Hero: Yep, been waiting for this one

Danger Zones: This sounds interesting so probably yes

Champions Universe Update: Nope, Champs again, sorry

The Underworld Sourcebook: Probably

 

2006 looks good to me, looking forward to 2007

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

I'm one of the "buy one of everything" folks. No reason to change that now.

 

Excited about Tuala Morn, Celtic Bestiary and Phychic Wars.

 

Personally I'd love to see the bestiaries expand thematically like that - we have the "generic", and upcoming the Asian and the Celtic. I'd love to see a "African" that goes into the myth, legends and beasties of Africa, and something similar for the Ancient American cultures. And maybe a "Pacific" that runs from the Aluetians to Austrialia.

I'd get those, even if I didn't buy one of everything.

 

GAC would be cool, especially if they keep the light tone of the previous versions. I loved Chris Coultier's style.

[ioticus]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

I'll probably buy all the books but still have no one to play HERO with

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

Kind of a rough spot when it comes to Champs, DoJ needs to put out the rewrites to provide details needed for newer players but the older players who have been around long enough to have an earlier edition or two are looking for the new and exciting products the other genres are getting.

 

But on a closer examination, even the accusation of there being a lot of rewrites falls flat.

 

Looking at the line:

 

Champions looks nothing like the books that previously bore its name. None of them offered this kind of detailed overview of the comic-book genre.

 

Champions Universe is a top to bottom rewrite of the previous version. The percentage of recycled material isn't that high. And while CKC has recycled villains in it, a large number are completely new.

 

Millennium City and Vibora Bay are new.

 

Champions Battlegrounds, Shades of Black, and Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth are all new adventures.

 

VIPER and UNTIL are strongly based on previous material, but even they are far from being direct ports. And DEMON is so different from its previous incarnation it may as well be considered a new organization.

 

The Mystic World borrows a lot from the Ultimate Supermage. But let's not forget that TUSM was a PDF only release. I doubt that a large percentage of Hero fandom has that material. Arcane Adversaries has some commonalities with Mystic Masters and CotN:HE, but most of the characters therein are all-new.

 

The USPD is one of a kind. You'd have to go back to Gadgets! to find a comparison to Gadgets and Gear. And that would be a fairly lame comparison, considering that GNG is many times its size.

 

Galactic Champions covers completely new territory. Hidden Lands promises to do the same.

 

There's never been a Champions book like Villainy Amok before.

 

I'm sorry, but the idea that we're being deluged with old material doesn't hold up.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

For me....

 

Nobles, Knights, and Necromancers: I doubt it. I don't run Fantasy Hero.

 

Ultimate Mentalist: Definite yes.

 

Stronghold: Probably, though without some villain writeups, I see this as a wasted slot for Champs products.

 

Golden Age Champions: Probably yes, I don't own earlier versions...so this will make good reading material if nothing else.

 

Psychic Wars: Maybe....need to look at it.

 

Celtic Bestiary: Sure.....fantasy monsters without the work. Sounds good.

 

Tuala Morn: No. Not needed for my game.

 

Pulp Resource Guide and Thrilling Places: I'm running supers, so unless these offer something I can use...no.

 

Ultimate Skill: A pretty safe yes.

 

Villains, Vandals, and Vermin: Easy yes....if only to read the writeups.

 

Horror Hero: Probably yes, unless it totally sucks writing wise.

 

Danger Zones: Maybe...we'll need a lookthrough first.

 

Champions Universe Update: The content will have to be really good. This means "new" writeups...and lots of them.

 

Underworld Sourcebook: Not sure....probably not...but if content is good.

 

The list will probably change anyways. Arcane Adversaries wasn't on the schedule originally and that was a very nice product...as was Champions Battlegrounds....so I doubt anyone really needs to worry.

 

Rob

[Toadmaster]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

But on a closer examination, even the accusation of there being a lot of rewrites falls flat.

 

snip

 

I'm sorry, but the idea that we're being deluged with old material doesn't hold up.

 

Like I said I haven't been following the Champs stuff, I don't play Champions so I can't form my own opinion for that genre. I was saying if it is true that much of the line is rewrites I could understand the frustration, whether or not this is the case is outside my knowledge. I know for the genres I am interested in this is not the case, Star HERO, Fantasy HERO and Dark Champions are much more than just re-writes of the 3rd or 4th ed and all have been worth buying even though I have all the previous versions.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: 2006 Schedule Blurbs

 

Like I said I haven't been following the Champs stuff' date=' I don't play Champions so I can't form my own opinion for that genre. I was saying if it is true that much of the line is rewrites I could understand the frustration, whether or not this is the case is outside my knowledge. I know for the genres I am interested in this is not the case, Star HERO, Fantasy HERO and Dark Champions are much more than just re-writes of the 3rd or 4th ed and all have been worth buying even though I have all the previous versions.[/quote']I think it's true in the Champions line as well. IMO, of all the Champions books that could be said to be rehashes of previous books in some way, the one that offers the least difference/improvement over its predecessor is VIPER. And having said that, I think the 5th Edition VIPER is much better than the 4th Edition one was, and is definitely a worthwhile buy.

 

Remember, just because a concept has been done before for a given game, doesn't mean it's been done right before. (Or, less judgementally, it doesn't mean it can't be done better.) Thus far, I think the "re-do's" Hero Games has done have generally been much improved over earlier versions, and I see no reason to assume that will change. I fully expect the 2006 versions of Golden Age Champions and Horror Hero to absolutely blow the doors off the 4th Edition versions, for example.

 

It's hardly like Hero Games is redoing all the earlier Champions books... they're redoing the ones that (A) seem like they could be improved enough to make it worthwhile, and ( are important enough to the line to warrant re-doing.