Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

[Vext]

A member of my group is trying to make an attack that causes a Dex roll (actually he wants an activation roll made by enemies, but I'm getting ahead of myself). He has an attack that spreads a layer of marbles across the floor. The thinking is that people can get through if they succeed at an activation roll (he was going for a 10- roll), however I was thinking a dex roll may be more appropriate (maybe at like -2 or something). Here I am hitting a wall. I don't really see a power that forces a roll.

 

My best solution I could come up with was Change Environment, and have it reduce running by like 10" or so, and add a limitation that says it can be overcome with a successful dex check (with said -2 modifier). Is there an explicit way of doing this with the 5ed that I'm missing, or is there any more logical way of building this that anyone can think of?

 

Summary: Player wants a power to force Dex or a set roll to walk through affected area.

 

Thanks for your help on this.

 

--Vext

[Darkhope]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

IMHO your right, a change enviroment. The special effect of the power would cause a dex rollwith a minus, up to GM though on total modifier. But I'm a old champions gm. The new rules may have something more suitable.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

I don't think Change Environment can do -" of Running. I think that would have to be a Drain Running, AOE.

 

FREd has Change Environment examples for a sheet of ice, if I remember correctly. I'd use that as a model and work from there.

[Vext]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

Ok, so I'm in talks with the character as I type (I'm GM), and what he really wants is for enemies to make a dex roll for each 1" of movement in the AE of the marbles. I really don't want to change his concept unless I have to. So if anyone has suggestions of how to force a dex roll I'm listening.

 

Oh and I don't think I have FREd. I'm not 100% sure which version that is as this is my first time really coming here for support (sorry), but I have the first Hero System 5th Edition. I'm guessing FREd is the revised one. (based on me not finding sheet of ice in index).

 

--Vext

[Old Man]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

I think you might want to back up and find out what it is the player really wants the power to do. I understand the make a Dex check thing, but if in the end the player just wants to limit movement, then a Change Environment, Supress or Drain Running might be easier to build.

[Mike W]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

Under the new rules, it should be built as change environment. You can apply a -1 to a characteristic roll for 3 points, so:

 

Change Environment -3 DEX(9pts) AOE radius(+1) 18 active points. OAF Bag of marbles(-1), 1 charge(-2), real cost: 4 points

[Vext]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

Under the new rules, it should be built as change environment. You can apply a -1 to a characteristic roll for 3 points, so:

 

Change Environment -3 DEX(9pts) AOE radius(+1) 18 active points. OAF Bag of marbles(-1), 1 charge(-2), real cost: 4 points

 

Hmm, I read this differently. This would reduce their dex, but wouldn't necessitate a DEX roll.

 

And in response to Shadowpup, he doesn't really seem to want to restrict movement. The only effect he wants is a Dex roll.

 

--Vext

[Darkhope]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

could have it to where there is no dex roll, targets fall down automatically. Make it an aoe martial art takedown

[MitchellS]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

Hmm, I read this differently. This would reduce their dex, but wouldn't necessitate a DEX roll.

 

And in response to Shadowpup, he doesn't really seem to want to restrict movement. The only effect he wants is a Dex roll.

 

--Vext

Change Environment does allow for the loss of movement too. You can buy -5" of running and -3 to Dex rolls in one change environment. -1 for each characteristic roll costs 3 points. -1 for each inch of movement costs 3 points.

[Mike W]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

Actually, that should have been -3 to Dex Roll. Sorry.

 

Also, you might by linked TK, only to make target fall(I think that's how marbles were built when we had the BBB). So you would have to make a Dex check to stay on your feet(at the minus).

 

Where's Sleepy Drug? I KNOW he's built this power before.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

Vext, the version of the Fifth Edition rulebook that you have - the first one, not the Revised one - is in fact the one that we call "FREd" around here. There's a story behind the nickname which I probably shouldn't go into here.

 

In that book there is an explicit example of Change Environment doing just about exactly what your player wants, with the Special Effect of creating a sheet of ice under an opponent. It's on p. 90, second column in italics. In this example the ice sheet forces an opponent to make a DEX Roll with penalties payed for in the CE, but there's no additional Advantage or Adder required to actually force the character to roll for DEX; that's assumed to be part of the Special Effect of the Power. I should think that that would apply to your player's "marble attack" too.

 

The precise effect on the victim of the Ice Sheet is perhaps a trifle different from what you and your player were visualizing for the marbles, but that's well within your purview as GM to define as desired.

 

I hope that helps.

[Old Man]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

I just thought of something. At what power level are you playing? If you're playing Heroic, non-supers, you don't need to build the power at all.

[Vext]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

I just thought of something. At what power level are you playing? If you're playing Heroic' date=' non-supers, you don't need to build the power at all.[/quote']

 

Sorry, this is supers.

 

But thanks for the help Lord Liaden with Change Environment. I was looking in the sidebar examples. I think I'll go with that example as it's pretty much the same (minus the sliding on the ice).

 

--Vext

[Necroid]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

So how about if I clarify what the power is supposed to be:

 

A canister with be thrown at and hopefully open on a hex. When the canister opens hundreds of tiny "marbles" which are equiped with magnets, spill out spreading across the floor. The magnets inside the balls are just strong enough to attract each other, but not strong enough to allow them to stack, or clump, together. This causes a blanket effect on the floor with a diameter of 4". The magnets do not hold a charge for long on their own ( away from their power supply) and so over 20 minutes lose their charge and disperse making movement easier once again. They can be retrieved and recharged fairly easily after battle.

 

 

Now for my opinion:

 

I think that the Dex roll sounds appropriate, but I don't know how to modify it. I'm still learning balance in this system.

 

I don't like to idea of reducing a type of movement, the AOE is only 4" anyway. I suppose that once you enter the area it could take X" to manuever through it, but in this case I think a check per hex (easier), or one check for the whole area (harder) sounds better. I.E. If you can manage to get through it, great! If not you're on the ground.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

what he really wants is for enemies to make a dex roll for each 1" of movement in the AE of the marbles. I really don't want to change his concept unless I have to.

That's not a concept or SFX, that's a game mechanic. If you as GM decide that marbles on the floor don't create that penalty, he'll have to buy it your way or find a different SFX.

 

But that mechanic is very similar to the one used in the Ice Sheet example on pate 90 of the rulebook you have. Just substitute "Marbles" for "Ice Sheet" and you should be good to go.

[Constantine]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

So how about if I clarify what the power is supposed to be:

 

A canister with be thrown at and hopefully open on a hex. When the canister opens hundreds of tiny "marbles" which are equiped with magnets, spill out spreading across the floor. The magnets inside the balls are just strong enough to attract each other, but not strong enough to allow them to stack, or clump, together. This causes a blanket effect on the floor with a diameter of 4". The magnets do not hold a charge for long on their own ( away from their power supply) and so over 20 minutes lose their charge and disperse making movement easier once again. They can be retrieved and recharged fairly easily after battle.

 

 

Now for my opinion:

 

I think that the Dex roll sounds appropriate, but I don't know how to modify it. I'm still learning balance in this system.

 

I don't like to idea of reducing a type of movement, the AOE is only 4" anyway. I suppose that once you enter the area it could take X" to manuever through it, but in this case I think a check per hex (easier), or one check for the whole area (harder) sounds better. I.E. If you can manage to get through it, great! If not you're on the ground.

 

You are gonna need a buttload of marbles to cover a 4" area of effect. Think about how big that is. That is a rough circle approximately 9 meters in radius. That is 254 sq. meters!!! Dude, that is a lot of freaking marbles!!!

[The Hyborian]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

Ok, this is with 5th edition, Nonrevised, so FRed owners feel free to call BS as needed.

 

Change Environment, Marbles on the Floor, 2 hex radius, -10 inches running (30 points, see chart pg 90) 45 Active Points. Limited Power: Dex check at -2 Negates Effect (-1/2) OAF:Bag of Marbles (-1) 1 Recoverable Continuing Charge Lasting up to 20 min (-0). Real Cost 18 pts.

 

The character carries a bag of marbles that can be dumped on the ground. Any entering the area affect find it very hard to walk or run unless they make a Dex check at -2. The power effect lasts up to 20 minutes, after that its assumed that he marbles have been dispersed to the point that they are no longer effective. The Continuing charge can be ended by spending time to clear the marbles out of the way. The charge is recoverable if character spends time after combat to gather them up again.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

Change Environment' date=' Marbles on the Floor, 2 hex radius, -10 inches running (30 points, see chart pg 90) 45 Active Points. Limited Power: Dex check at -2 Negates Effect (-1/2) OAF:Bag of Marbles (-1) 1 Recoverable Continuing Charge Lasting up to 20 min (-0). Real Cost 18 pts.[/quote']

The only thing I don't like about reducing movement directly is that anyone with even 1" or more of the movement just moves slower over it, and that doesn't seem to be in line with the SFX. Shouldn't those speedsters have to make a DEX Roll to move at all? Just slowing down to a speed that could still be three times as fast as a normal shouldn't keep them up and running.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

The only thing I don't like about reducing movement directly is that anyone with even 1" or more of the movement just moves slower over it' date=' and that doesn't seem to be in line with the SFX. Shouldn't those speedsters have to make a DEX Roll to move at all? Just slowing down to a speed that could still be three times as fast as a normal shouldn't keep them up and running.[/quote']

 

Another option that comes to mind would be an area affect entangle bought with trigger. The trigger is laying out the marbles and having someone enter the area. The Fx would be the triggering character doing a Chevy Chase breakfall routine in the marbles until they had done enough dammage to the entangle to scatter them. I wont try to build this one exactly, as there are nearly two pages of adders, advantages, and limitations for Entangle, and my brain power is feeling a little taxed about now. I am sure some rules lawyer out there should be able to write it up the correct version. You would, of course, keep the Dex roll at -2 Negates Limited Power limitations.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

"May I have ten thousand marbles, please?" - Flounder (animal house)

 

I'd buy it as a suppress to running with the limitation that a dex roll will negate 1" worth of suppress. (-1 per successive roll made?)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

Another option that comes to mind would be an area affect entangle bought with trigger. The trigger is laying out the marbles and having someone enter the area. The Fx would be the triggering character doing a Chevy Chase breakfall routine in the marbles until they had done enough dammage to the entangle to scatter them. I wont try to build this one exactly' date=' as there are nearly two pages of adders, advantages, and limitations for Entangle, and my brain power is feeling a little taxed about now. I am sure some rules lawyer out there should be able to write it up the correct version. You would, of course, keep the Dex roll at -2 Negates Limited Power limitations.[/quote']

I like the Entangle idea! Originally I had balked at using Entangle (which I think is overused as a "stop right there, mister" mechanic when there are many others out there that fit SFX better. For the marbles it could work though (and a strong enough character could just stop on and crush the marbles; breaking out with casual STR). You could also use TK for a similar effect of the marbles (a physical manifistation) "grabbing" a character and keeping them from moving.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

I like the Entangle idea! Originally I had balked at using Entangle (which I think is overused as a "stop right there' date=' mister" mechanic when there are many others out there that fit SFX better. For the marbles it could work though (and a strong enough character could just stop on and crush the marbles; breaking out with casual STR). You could also use TK for a similar effect of the marbles (a physical manifistation) "grabbing" a character and keeping them from moving.[/quote']This is similar to Slick's powers in CKC. Although, I would tend to put some sort of Limitation on it to indicate that it doesn't immobilize the target's arms; it just makes it impossible to move through the area. The Sticky Advantage would probably be appropriate, too; anyone entering the area would have the same problem.Some sort of Limitation would also be appropriate for "affects only targets on the ground". And, Vulnerable would probably be good too. Just tossing out ideas.

[rayoman]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

Guys, reference page 90 of Fred, Change Environment is the power that you want. Check out the Ice Sheet example in the second column on page 90. The GM would rule whether or not moving across the marbles would cause a DEX roll. The Ice Sheet example is exactly like the Canister of Marbles. Change the name to Canister of Marbles: Change Environment (see page 90 for rest of stuff) then add OAF(Cansiter of Marbles, -1).

[Shocker]

While we're here...

 

As long as we're talking about Ice Sheets and marbles...how would you build a power that makes a person slide several inches in a specific direction but not necessarily fall down?

 

I was thinking the Change Env mentioned before along with Running, Usable as an Attack linked. The target would hit the ice/marbles/grease/whatever, make a Dex roll (with a minus if it's built in) to avoid falling. Whether they fell or not they'd travel however many inches in the same direction they were travelling when they hit the thing. If they hit something then they take damage, if not then they just slide off the slippery patch and stop.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Trying to make an attack that forces dex roll

 

To move in a certain direction, running UAA is fine. It either needs to be area effect and continuous/uncontrolled or triggered. No problemo.

 

Now on the base problem, can I point out a couple of things:

 

1. The marbles sfx will only really work on hard smooth flat surfaces: not on earth, sand, broken ground, carpet, slopes or hills, and probably not against very heavy opponents with enough DI to crush them or push them into the surface beneath. The ice example in the book makes its own surface so doesn't need to worry about this.

 

2. You can cross a smooth floor covered in marbles in perfect safety by shuffling: you only have a problem if you pick your feet up and put them down on a marble, so another way of avoiding the effect would be to voluntarily move at half speed.

 

I would go with the CE/Dex roll or fall build, but can I suggest a change of SFX: a magnetic oil with a high surface tension containing micro-spherules. It spreads thinly over a large area, and is slippy on virtually any surface. You'll have to decide if it moves downhill. You can pick it up with a magnet (so that is possibly another way of avoiding the effects). This also addresses the excellent point of how many marbles you'll need to cover a circle 18 metres in diameter: liquids can cover vastly greater areas.

 

OK, my sfx may be no more real than yours, but it sounds more like it could work, and seems to fit your design criteria. I think there is often a lack of care taken in applying sfx, which are really critical to having an enjoyable game IMO: if you describe an effect in a particular way it is incumbent on you to make the effect consistent with the description so that the power has internal consistency. And micro-spherules .