Is Punisher the problem?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Because they are key to the police officer character concept' date=' and not to the concept of most heroes.[/quote']

 

In fairness, if having handcuffs is key to the character's concept, he should be able to swing the 7 points (or a reduced amount using a framework, if apropriate). If it's not key to his concept, not having them isn't that big an issue. The Guardian (golden age) was a police officer. So was Captain America for a time, and Nightwing was untl recently. I don't recall any of them carrying a flashlight, nightstick, handgun or handcuffs in Super ID. And if anyone could justify more gadgets, Nightwing should qualify! I think he did carry mace, but before taking the cop job as well as after.

[Storn]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Nightwing, Batman and the Punisher, I've seen, all carry those plastic handcuffs. The ones that can zip around wrists or even thumbs. Perp left in the alley, cops a comin', Nightwing on the rooftops. I've seen that panel several times folks.

 

It just makes sense. For even someone like Supes to carry something like that. YOu don't always want to beat someone to unconciousness so the police can pick them up.

 

just sayin'... that's all.

 

 

Seems to me almost 80% of superheroes should carry the following.

 

1st aid kit (huge)

flashlight

wallet

keys (you never know when you have to move your civilian vehicle outta the way)

those zip handcuffs

cell phone

little tool kit (tweezers, mini saw, some duct tape etc,) Even bricks who can break down a door can use a little finesse from time to time.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Don't forget your towel.

[Storn]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

heh. Towel AND probably some water. Crime fighting is sweaty, thirsty work.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Nightwing' date=' Batman and the Punisher, I've seen, all carry those plastic handcuffs. The ones that can zip around wrists or even thumbs. Perp left in the alley, cops a comin', Nightwing on the rooftops. I've seen that panel several times folks.[/quote']

 

The Punisher takes prisoners? Bats and Nightwing are gadgeteer utility belt types so it makes sense for them to have these (and pay the points).

 

It just makes sense. For even someone like Supes to carry something like that. YOu don't always want to beat someone to unconciousness so the police can pick them up.

 

Yes Supes doesn't. Nor do most heroes outside the "gadget carriers". You would think, at a minimum, Captain America and Daredevil would! Spiderman need not, for obvious reasons (but why should he pay points for the prinilege if he could just as easily have little plastic handcuffs).

 

Seems to me almost 80% of superheroes should carry the following.

 

1st aid kit (huge)

flashlight

wallet

keys (you never know when you have to move your civilian vehicle outta the way)

those zip handcuffs

cell phone

little tool kit (tweezers, mini saw, some duct tape etc,) Even bricks who can break down a door can use a little finesse from time to time.

 

Ye sthey don't, by and large. It's not genre. I agree with you - one long running character IMC actually has a costume designed with side pockets, and asks other characters "Where do you keep your wallet in that outfit?" He doesn't carry ID, though, or any utility devices, but has made a point of noting he carries spare change (may need to use a pay phone).

[Fox1]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

You would think' date=' at a minimum, Captain America and Daredevil would![/quote']

 

Never read much of Daredevil, but very often issues with Cap would end with the police or shield halling the bad guys off in cuffs.

 

It's a question of style. In the comics the good Captain has fought the good fight and his job is done. He doesn't have to do common clean up, that's for the police for feds.

 

If someone is GMing a game for Captain America, that's how he should handle it to.

 

Now I have seen Cap in the comics pull out a number of items that don't typically appear on his character sheet as done by most people (including me and remember I run him as a character): comm cards, flashlights, disquise kits, gas masks, space suits, scuba gear, etc.

 

None of those are part of his concept, nor do they appear to be hanging off his belt. They may appear as part of a specific story line. And in that is all the difference.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Now I have seen Cap in the comics pull out a number of items that don't typically appear on his character sheet as done by most people (including me and remember I run him as a character): comm cards' date=' flashlights, disquise kits, gas masks, space suits, scuba gear, etc.[/quote']

 

Every Avenger should pay for his comm card (for whatever it's worth - likely not a lot). I'd say he generally uses contacts (or just plot points - they don't pay for airline access to be alowed to fly to the UK for a UK adventure either) for the rest - he gets it when he needs it, but when the Red Skull lobs that deadly dust at him, he doesn't whip out his handy dandy gas mask and charge back in.

[Fox1]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Every Avenger should pay for his comm card (for whatever it's worth - likely not a lot).

 

I typical run him outside the Avengers.

 

With the Avengers I consider it issued team equipment.

 

 

I'd say he generally uses contacts (or just plot points - they don't pay for airline access to be alowed to fly to the UK for a UK adventure either) for the rest - he gets it when he needs it, but when the Red Skull lobs that deadly dust at him, he doesn't whip out his handy dandy gas mask and charge back in.

 

In the comics he's used his contact for everything from some lab work to a full scale military assault. It's all good.

 

And no, he doesn't wipe out a gas mask when the Red Skull lobs the dust at him as a general rule, I have seen exceptions in the comics. Which again is sort of the whole point.

 

Characters don't carry stuff with them all the time that isn't concept, but characters are able to get stuff if it suits the storyline. Sometimes they do even wipe it out in the middle of a combat round if it makes sense.

 

Points = Concept.

 

Everything else is the GM's adventure (which of couse should be geared towards the characer's concept).

[zornwil]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Nightwing, Batman and the Punisher, I've seen, all carry those plastic handcuffs. The ones that can zip around wrists or even thumbs. Perp left in the alley, cops a comin', Nightwing on the rooftops. I've seen that panel several times folks.

 

It just makes sense. For even someone like Supes to carry something like that. YOu don't always want to beat someone to unconciousness so the police can pick them up.

 

just sayin'... that's all.

 

 

Seems to me almost 80% of superheroes should carry the following.

 

1st aid kit (huge)

flashlight

wallet

keys (you never know when you have to move your civilian vehicle outta the way)

those zip handcuffs

cell phone

little tool kit (tweezers, mini saw, some duct tape etc,) Even bricks who can break down a door can use a little finesse from time to time.

And I will add that if handcuffs are going to be used by supers just to secure someone at the scene after the encounter, that's a freebie in my book, it's not worth getting into points because it isn't a "combat entangle" unless it's going to be used as such.

 

In fact our super team does something very much like this. They use duct tape to secure the bad guys (even super bad guys) at a scene, which has become something of a running gag. I have never charged for this, nor will I so long as it's used more in this plot device/atmosphere way, there's no overt combat or otherwise issue.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Thread in Dark Champions sparked a thought as an alternative way of handling.

 

For those who want characters hauling real world equipment around, want them to pay something for it, but not full cost - work with the +5pts/doubling mechanic, but call all accessible real world items as equal. Assume SOMEONE paid full pts for the basic item, and the PC is just paying for the extras. Characters can switch out as desired/available, but can always have X pieces of gear with them. Flavor to taste as what would require pts/what wouldn't.

 

Example:

Punisher wants lots of real world guns and gear. He spends 20 pts to always have access to (5+5+5+5) 16 items. For the adventure taking down Silvermane, he chooses:

M-16

Mac-11

Big honkin' knife

50 cal rifle

Scope w/night vision (GM rules as seperate piece of equipment - not part of gun)

3xFrag grenades

3xSmoke grenades

SCUBA gear (ya never know)

Directional mike/headset for eavesdropping (GM rules set as one item)

.44 Magnum pistol

Taser (in case Daredevil or Spider-Man show up)

Lots of ammo

[OddHat]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

And I will add that if handcuffs are going to be used by supers just to secure someone at the scene after the encounter, that's a freebie in my book, it's not worth getting into points because it isn't a "combat entangle" unless it's going to be used as such.

 

In fact our super team does something very much like this. They use duct tape to secure the bad guys (even super bad guys) at a scene, which has become something of a running gag. I have never charged for this, nor will I so long as it's used more in this plot device/atmosphere way, there's no overt combat or otherwise issue.

 

This looks like a job for the Duct Tape Superheores Page!

[zornwil]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

This look like a job for the Duct Tape Superheores Page!

Heh, I think I've seen this, we tend to pass around duct tape pages, there's another one with "regular" duct tape clothing.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Thread in Dark Champions sparked a thought as an alternative way of handling.

 

For those who want characters hauling real world equipment around, want them to pay something for it, but not full cost - work with the +5pts/doubling mechanic, but call all accessible real world items as equal. Assume SOMEONE paid full pts for the basic item, and the PC is just paying for the extras. Characters can switch out as desired/available, but can always have X pieces of gear with them. Flavor to taste as what would require pts/what wouldn't.

 

Example:

Punisher wants lots of real world guns and gear. He spends 20 pts to always have access to (5+5+5+5) 16 items. For the adventure taking down Silvermane, he chooses:

M-16

Mac-11

Big honkin' knife

50 cal rifle

Scope w/night vision (GM rules as seperate piece of equipment - not part of gun)

3xFrag grenades

3xSmoke grenades

SCUBA gear (ya never know)

Directional mike/headset for eavesdropping (GM rules set as one item)

.44 Magnum pistol

Taser (in case Daredevil or Spider-Man show up)

Lots of ammo

 

 

Interesting... it's roughly equivalent to the Equipment Pool concept from Dark Champions. Depending on what items you choose, could be more or less efficient.

 

Again... I may come back to something like this if I find an abuse of "non-points" equipment in my games. I was tweaking some of the PCs last night, just to see... and with a removal of points for the Pool, and a slight increase in Perk costs... they come out a few points ahead. Now... in my lower power, super cyber mercs with guns campaign... if a character chose to take all/most of their equipment as "no point mundane" they might save quite a bit more points... but also likely have less effective attacks, in general.

 

Anyway... good suggestion... and thanks for the cross post.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

I agree with Zorn. Handcuffs (or duct tape, LOL) is a no-point thing. It's the, "Heros have won, they get to choose what to do to the villains," effect. Unless a villain has something pretty sneaky up his/her sleeve, the good guys have won. Let's move on.

 

I don't think it's right to charge characters for handcuffs if it is, "in their concept," unless it really does provide them with some advantage over what I am giving all the other characters for free. It's best just to handle it as part of the story, or as an Everyman Power, as I have said before. I won't even question where the hero kept the handcuffs in their skin-tight suit, loincloth, or whatever (unless it seems a good source of amusement for the gaming group!). I wouldn't "even" make Batman pay that 1 point to put the handcuffs in his utility belt. I'm sorry.

 

Now I guess if the character were to use them in the middle of combat (which seems slightly pointless in a Superheroic campaign, but whatever), maybe I'd make them pay for it. Then again, I might just say, "He's stunned and on his last legs. You could easily hit him and knock him out this Phase. If you want, you can just spend your Phase to slap the handcuffs on him and call him defeated instead."

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

At the risk of thread necromancy, I wanted to come back to the idea I used to start this thread. Namely... do we have to charge points for equipment?

 

I've been slowly testing the idea that you do NOT have to charge points for equipment that can be purchased/obtained normally... though players can choose to if they wish.

 

So... purely from an anecdotal "in my game" POV... I can say that it seems to work fine.

 

In my higher level (over 500 points) UNITE campaign, where equipment is most often background stuff, this had almost zero effect except as flavor and in one battle where the heroes bunkered in with UNTIL soldiers and used firearms as part of repelling an assault.

 

I really wanted to try it in a campaign where guns and equipment were critical to the characters and plots. I've found two responses. Some players chose to keep paying points for weapons, which essentialy means that they have default access to their guns unless a serious plot point impedes them. Those that haven't paid points are fully open to the fact that they may not have a weapon readily available, and that their guns will stick to the "real weapon" limitations in ways that "points" weapons will not.

 

The one thing I've found that players almost ALWAYS continue paying points for is armor. They want that slick, molded, effective armor... and not depend on kevlar vests or other such that they may or may not be able to get ahold of.

 

Also... even those who have chosen not to pay points for guns... the points they have saved have ranged from 3 points to 70 points... and what they bought with those points really seemed to make the characters more fully rounded and effective, without being over powering.

 

Anyway... someone asked for me to report back on how this was working out... so at this point I wanted to say...

 

(Oh... and on an interesting side note, one of the newer players who came to Hero from a purely D&D background... she so totally groks on this and feels very comfortable with an "equipment is just that" mentality that makes the game make that much more sense to her.)

 

In the end, I've simply decided to play out my supers campaign as if it was a "Heroic Level Game" but with super abilties. So far, so good.

[Mister E]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

I haven't read through this whole thread (i'll get to it later), but I would like to say that: I too am seriously thinking about letting PC in my future Champions campaigns have normal equipment for free, as long as they can aquire it reallisticly in game. Right now, I'm organizing a Dark Champions campaign, in a new continuity, as a base-line in preperation for this, and (A) I think it gives the players the kind of freedom they deserve to have, to let them use everything in their surroundings to complete a mission, and ( from the experiences I've had in the past, running Champions campaigns with bullet-proof bricks and such, I really don't think it'll be a problem.

 

As far as Punisher-type characters running wild with more character points than they know what to do with... if you check out the DC's genre book, there's tons of "powers" they can pick up, as hyper-skills... and many of them wouldn't be realistically portrayed if they were put into multi-powers, and stuff, (there are exceptions, of course )... so I think they'll be fine.

 

There is a point, of course, where if a character were to pick up an item that was so useful, and got used so often, that it became a main schick-type object for the character... I would request that the player pay character points to continue using it, which is cool. More than anything, this would represent super-tech items, anyway, so it probably doesn't aply to the topic. Grenades... kevlar-vests... walkie-talkies from Radio Shack... these things are other-wise fine, IMO.

 

Even if everone on my super-team wants to use these objects... I'm cool with it. For the most part, I think having the players pay into a community VPP, or what ever, is a waste of time.

 

Beyond that, really, the sky is the limit for me. If a brick with a military background wants to pick-up a rocket-launcher, (that he knowes how to use), off the battle-field, nail Doctor Destroyer with it, and take it home for later use... how can I fairly deny him the right to do so, without being overly heavy-handed as a GM? Like-wise, for an energy-projector, (whose hypothetically an ex-test pilot for the Air Force), that jumps into an alien spacecraft from the Pink Nebula, flies the party back home to planet Earth, and stores it away with hopes for letting a contact reverse-engineer it for the betterment of humanity.

 

ALMOST, BUT NOT QUITE, OFF TOPIC: Do you give the players free Reputation/Contact/and other Perk bonuses, for in game roleplaying? I do. This kind of stuff, to me, is more important than Experience Points, in a lot of ways, as far as campaign rewards are concerned.

 

I think, really, it boils down to this simple question:

 

"How dynamic, and interactive, are you willing to let the players be, in your campaign setting?"

 

IN CLOSING: I hope I haven't rehashed to many previous threads.

[zornwil]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

On occassion PCs have picked up guns or on a rare assignment they were issued heavy-duty firearms. As to carrying stuff regularly, it just isn't done mostly because it isn't needed, but we have always had 1 PC in my supers campaign have equipment that isn't paid for with points. In his human form he's somewhat limited, he basically can only transform people into a particular sort of object (without getting into all the details) or himself turn into those same sorts of object albeit sentient, conscious versions of them. He is a detective otherwise, an amazing super-uber-sleuth, and has little else besides his various gadgets, and carries a normal gun, which he's actually used to harm bad guys with. No biggie, it works and it's real tech and nothing powerful at that.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

ALMOST' date=' BUT NOT QUITE, OFF TOPIC: Do you give the players free Reputation/Contact/and other Perk bonuses, for in game roleplaying? I do. This kind of stuff, to me, is more important than Experience Points, in a lot of ways, as far as campaign rewards are concerned.[/quote']

 

Contacts, etc. are "in-game RP acquired" things that don't wind up on the sheet. Much like new a new "Hunted" the PC might pick up by defeating the villains one too many times. I've always thought the "pay for everyone you know who might be able to help you in some way" to be excessive.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Contacts' date=' etc. are "in-game RP acquired" things that don't wind up on the sheet. Much like new a new "Hunted" the PC might pick up by defeating the villains one too many times. I've always thought the "pay for everyone you know who might be able to help you in some way" to be excessive.[/quote']

 

Actually, I find this an interesting corrollary to RDUNeil's most recent post, above. If you want the Contact to help you out on your terms, pay the points. If you want the contact to be available when the GM wants him to be available, to advance the plot, don't pay the points. His phone's busy, or he's on vacation, if the GM doesn't want that individual to have any involvement at this time.

 

Similar to RDUNeil's differentiation between "equipment you paid points for" and "point-free equipment". Everyone's guns are ruined by the extended submersion. Oh, except Gunbunny's gun he paid points for, due to his special waterproof holster tm.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Actually, I find this an interesting corrollary to RDUNeil's most recent post, above. If you want the Contact to help you out on your terms, pay the points. If you want the contact to be available when the GM wants him to be available, to advance the plot, don't pay the points. His phone's busy, or he's on vacation, if the GM doesn't want that individual to have any involvement at this time.

 

Similar to RDUNeil's differentiation between "equipment you paid points for" and "point-free equipment". Everyone's guns are ruined by the extended submersion. Oh, except Gunbunny's gun he paid points for, due to his special waterproof holster tm.

 

 

EXACTAMUNDO! You posted before I did.

 

Essentially, if the player wants control of the contact (for the most part) pay points. If it is more of an NPC plot driver contact... don't pay points. I leave it up to the players and they can choose how they want it to work.

 

Points reflects players level of control/power effectiveness in the game. The more real points spent, the more the player has control/say over how it is used.

 

That general rule (which I posit is a possible Axiom of Hero, but one not well developed) makes running games SO much easier in my experience.

[Vondy]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

 

Has anyone tried playing a superheroic level game where mundane equipment is treated as it is in a heroic level?

 

 

Yes. In my game, which is theoretically defined as heroic because characters don't pay points for "standard equipment," characters only pay points for equipment that is essentially unique to them: signature items. I got tired of having characters pay for light body armor, a communicator, and a firearm that only got used if guns were in their concept, pay points for stuff the agency they worked for issued them. Most of the characters - despite the cool "rocket pistol" they were issued - only consider it a backup, and the gun-centric characters end up toting more than that to make up for their lack of powers, anyways.

 

I included "equipment access" in their "Operations Officer" Perk. This allows them standard issue gear and any plot advancing equipment I... er, the agency... gives them for story purposes; and access to agency vehicles to get them to the scene of the story as appropriate. This actually gives me a lot of oversight over how much stuff they lug around in most cases while making them happy not to waste points on mandatory buys that aren't specifically in concept. Its not so much a set "equipment" allowance or rolls for access to the big goodies as it is a common sense of what's situation appropriate. But there's a caveat...

 

My game isn't a "superhero" game, its much more an espionage game with powers, but they still don't take more than they need (and they tend to skimp on equipment because, as one player put it, he feels like he might be abusing the concept). I was worried about it at first, but standard goodies from the armory aren't "signature" stuff and the players want their character's to stand out. That isn't to say the stuff doesn't get used, but the combat stuff gets used a lot less than you'd think, and the other stuff makes my life as a gamemaster (for plot purposes) a lot easier.

 

Also (my game doesn't have set character points), I found "gun toting" characters tend to run as many as a hundred points behind the other ones (for instance, Hotshot, our gun-fu queen weighed in at 400 points, while most of the powers or signature skills people (martial artists, etc) averaged 500-550 points. She was well rounded and in concept on less, and the array of guns and grenades she carries lets her hang with "the big boys" without unbalancing the game (yeah, she has some cool guns, but the characters with powers can often do broader things, or, sometimes, more powerful things, than her guns can).

[Solomon]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

I never had a game balance issue with free mundane equipment in a superheroic campaign. To me, game balance is in actual gameplay, not in a number at the bottom of your sheet. Groups with widely differing character point totals work fine, as long as each player feel he's getting a fair share of the limelight.

 

More to the point, I have had game flavor issues with free equipment, but that was because I was trying to run a Silver Age game with a player that didn't really like or even understand the Silver Age feel. Image a Hulk clone, except Bruce Banner is stark raving lunatic and armed to the teeth.

 

Anyway my rule of thumb is, characters only pay for unusual equipment, super-tech or signature items.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Yes.

 

SNIP SOME GOOD STUFF

 

I included "equipment access" in their "Operations Officer" Perk. This allows them standard issue gear and any plot advancing equipment I... er, the agency... gives them for story purposes;

 

SNIP MORE GOOD STUFF

 

But there's a caveat...

 

My game isn't a "superhero" game, its much more an espionage game with powers, but they still don't take more than they need (and they tend to skimp on equipment because, as one player put it, he feels like he might be abusing the concept). I was worried about it at first, but standard goodies from the armory aren't "signature" stuff and the players want their character's to stand out. That isn't to say the stuff doesn't get used, but the combat stuff gets used a lot less than you'd think, and the other stuff makes my life as a gamemaster (for plot purposes) a lot easier.

 

SNIP Other GOOD STUFF

 

 

This is exactly what I've found in my game... and my supers world (the Red Dragon Universe... RDU) covers everything from cosmic supers to boys-in-blue on the streets... with everything in between. I have full on supers games... and at the same time have a "super mercs" game... similar to what you describe, but they are independent operators who have a tenuous relationship with UNTIL at best... operating out of Malta. This is the game that I've returned to recently (we hop all over the different characters and storylines going on in the world) to test this "no points for mundane equipment" rule... and it seems to work just fine... the question is... since there are various and sundry "genres" playing out in this world/universe... will I eventually run into a game balance issue in the Play Experience level. Will some non-gun using character eventually feel... oh, out gunned say ... by another character who gets freebie equipment? Will the player feel cheated/slighted? That is the kind of thing I'm most concerned with happening... especially as cross-overs between games takes place.

 

So far, I've also had the same experience you relate, where the players are consciously trying to NOT abuse the rule. Nobody is demanding Baret sniper rifles at their beck and call or wishing to carry a bandolier of RPGs or something.

 

Thanks for the feedback. Join the heresy! Don't pay points for equipment!

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

I like this idea. Mostly for the use of real world computers and telecommunications gear. Cell phones and tactical radios are great ways to reach out and touch your teammates. A gun from the gun show is not going to be as powerful as Omega Man's Photonic Bolts but if Omega Man wants to carry one why not?

 

So if Bendilass feels outpowered by Omega Man plus Glock 9 then Bendilass can just pick up a semiauto shotgun for free as well. The mundane gear doesn't cost *points* so how can it be unbalancing? The weapon has the real weapon limitation doesn't it? That means it doesn't get to do cool stuff. Plus unless the character has an appropriate WF: the gun is of less utility.

 

Hawksmoor

[gojira]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

On the other hand, I think it's important for the GM to keep the power level of "free" equipment fairly low. When a Gun Bunny PC can get a gun with powers as good as his partner's paid for powers, you have a game balance problem.

 

This can be tougher in low powered campaigns. In superheroic games, it's pretty easy to keep guns at a lower power level than powers. In other games, guns and other equipment can be a problem. Fantasy especially, the power level between a regular sword and a signature item can be minimal. (My fantasy weapon list looks like this: Dagger, Sword, Stick, Rock. Want more? Pay points.)

 

One solution is to encourage PCs to really cut loose with signature items. Go for the Japanese manga effect where everyone can basically cast spells. It's way fun!

 

One thing I object to is declaring kevlar vests and grenades to be "free." My acid test is if you can buy it at Walmart, it's free. Everything else costs points. A kevlar vests is not exactly common item, and very pricey too. The actual military models only protect the upper torso; I'd give them a pretty low ACT roll. And grenades are totally illegal to carry around, even the police are only allowed "non-lethal" flash-bangs and such.

 

Anyone who was actually a member of the military and drove around in a "battle van" wearing his body armour and carrying a loaded rifle would soon be minus his commision. This PC rational for having "real" weapons isn't realistic.

 

Battlefield scavenge is a little different. Most of my Viper equipment is different enough from standard military models that a soldier couldn't just pick something up and use it immediately. And most of my battlefield scavenge tends to get broken in combat anyway. However, using a villian's own super weapon to defeat him is great super schitck and should be encouraged. Same for gangsta pushers and evil necromancers in other genres. There's no reason that a hero should not be allowed to "power up" during the course of an adventure. A good GM is prepared for this and doesn't allow it to short-circuit his plans.

 

As I replied on the first page of this thread, the problem is Batman, not the Punisher. Most powers that people would actually want really are powers, even if the sfx is "real world stuff."