Is Punisher the problem?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

That's interesting.

 

I remember you also don't use the speed chart - you use an initiative system instead.

 

Are there any special interactions between the kinds of equipment you allow free and the speed system you use?

 

I can't see any offhand, but a report from the guy with lots of experiences is better than speculation.

 

Uh... no. Hadn't thought of connecting the two, and thinking about it, I can't see any kind of connection. The lack of Speed Chart was a way to devalue SPD so that a single point of it wasn't so dominant for 10 points... and to have every player active every round... nobody sitting on their thumbs waiting for their phase to come up. Been doing that for many years now.

[David Blue]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

I sure agree with the speed chart issue. Big speed gaps seem to make for bad play (though other people's mileage may vary).

 

Have you used free equipment, like your initiative system, to get characters into play who otherwise would have been idle in combat? Or what are you doing with this free hardware?

[OddHat]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

"what I like" is a legitimate problem' date=' and solving that problem is actually the legitimate justification for this rule.[/quote']

 

I agree here. Tailoring a campaign to the tastes of the players and GM is enough reason for a rules tweak (imo).

 

One more thought on how the Real Weapon limitation could be used in a campaign with free real-tech equipment:

 

The DC of free weapons can be doubled by STR, Levels or Martial Arts; the DC of weapons purchased as powers have no such limit. If Daredevil chooses to use a real +2d6 billy club, he will max out at 4d6 normal damage. If he pays points for a +2d6 HA, he will start at 6d6 (assuming 20 STR), and could then freely add DC from Martial Arts.

 

This approach might be useful in balancing out free real equipment and equipment purchased with points.

[OddHat]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Not sure I understand the "Normal capped at 2" bit.

 

Under the Heroic rules, you can at most double the DC of a weapon using STR, Martial Arts, or Skill Levels. Under Superheroic Rules, you can just add STR and Martial Arts DC to a Weapon-based HA directly, with no cap unless the HA has an advantage.

 

Extra DC purchased with Martial Arts may be an exception in Heroic campaigns, but I'd need to look it up.

[gojira]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Is the Punisher... or gun-type characters like him... the reason we have to wrestle with the "points for equipment" issue?

 

Genre commentary aside (like "Supers aren't looters")... is the systems issue one of balance, where we are saying "If Punisher didn't have to pay for his guns, he'd essentially be getting his powers for free... where Cyclops has to pay out the yang for his optic blast."

 

That is the core of argument... right?

 

Nope. It's Batman.

 

ALL of his powers (except for martial arts) are "stuff." Batarangs, bat grapples, even the batmobile, it's all "real world stuff."

 

Except it's not really. It's a super power. And it's for the most part it's stuff that no person could actually have. You want to give Gun Bunny an M240 LMG and several LAWs to lug around? Ok, join the military in real life and ask to be assigned a "secret mission" and oh yes you want to run around with this stuff in your "battle van."

 

They didn't let you? Gosh son, I guess you're payin' points for that stuff then.

 

I draw the line at paying points for flash lights and cell phones (except that they tend to get smooshed in super combat a lot). If you can buy it at WalMart, it's yours buddy. But everything else, including Lear jets and fast cars, is just a "special effect" of your character's wealth or whatever, and will go away once the super stuff starts flying.

 

All in my own campaigns of course, and in my own opinion.

[Vanguard]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Katherine hit the nail on the head. It all boils down to points.

 

If Super Being A has to pay points for everything (because he's a super hero) then he's going to have to skimp in other areas (usually skills) to make sure he has his arsenal of powers ready.

 

If Rambo Mk 3 doesn't have to pay points for his weapons/equipment but is built on the same points as Super Being A then he's just going to plain better at everything. More skills (and at higher levels) more Stats/Perks/Talents/etc.

 

It's all a matter of balance. (Oh and we're talking weapons and/or items that might have a direct impact on fights/combat. In the games I've played in, we're not charged points for cellphones, pagers, etc . . the "normal" mundane gear). Now, if you let SB A be built on 350 points and Rambo guy is only built on 250, but get's his arsenal for free, then that might be balanced, maybe.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

In all seriousness... if a Heroic level character had Leader of Nation... would you just allow him to fly around in attack helicopters at will. Would you actually allow such a perk? C'mon... it's a specious argument. Perks don't guarantee such things... just give a more solid role playing reason why they MIGHT be available... and I'll tell you this... the downside of having such a Perk would highly outweigh the upside. Those are role playing cues... and subject to all the same issues. Abuse your wealth... likely to lose that perk... same with Leader of Nation.

**********************************************

Points for equipments and abusing Perks aren't even the slightest bit related.

 

The Perks simply justify access to the equipment. If a bullet proof vest and a Saturday Night Special cost no points because they're "real world equipment", do you pay points for full riot gear and an assault rifle? It's still real world tech.

 

And if I can have an assault rifle, why not a SAM launcher? It's still real world tech.

 

As is a Sherman tank, an attack helicopter, an F15 fighter jet and a nuclear submarine.

 

We're just moving further up the line of "tough to lay your hands on". Once we say "Real world equipment costs no points", the next obvious question becomes where that line ends. All of the items above are real world tech. If it doesn't cost points, only $$, then the classic "super-rich millionaire playboy" should be able to lay his hands on it, shouldn't he? Just like Joe Military can get that assault rifle and Johnny Streetpunk can have a Saturday night special. "It's consistent with my concept".

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Have you used free equipment, like your initiative system, to get characters into play who otherwise would have been idle in combat? Or what are you doing with this free hardware?

 

Not really... just to flesh out appropriate background support stuff that characters who are major players in the UN superteam UNITE would have. One is a soldier, and while he has superpowers, he also packs a 9mm side arm and occasionally takes an assault rifle into the game. It has come up twice where the guns were the least bit effective... but it's important that the character have them.

 

I also give this team free hover jets and support squads and all the rest. They have 5 point perks UNITE Member... but otherwise... the rest is just the positive aspects of being part of UNTIL... while the negatives come from being subject to orders, held accountable to certain behaviors, required to save the world all the time, etc. I just see it all as give and take of the role playing aspects.

 

While I'd have a tough time justifying it... if somehow it WAS reasonable to send a character into battle with a bandoleer of Stinger missiles... and it was reasonable that UNTIL could have provided 'em... I guess I'd let them. Highly unlikely... but hey?

[OddHat]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

The Perks simply justify access to the equipment. If a bullet proof vest and a Saturday Night Special cost no points because they're "real world equipment", do you pay points for full riot gear and an assault rifle? It's still real world tech.

 

And if I can have an assault rifle, why not a SAM launcher? It's still real world tech.

 

As is a Sherman tank, an attack helicopter, an F15 fighter jet and a nuclear submarine.

 

We're just moving further up the line of "tough to lay your hands on". Once we say "Real world equipment costs no points", the next obvious question becomes where that line ends. All of the items above are real world tech. If it doesn't cost points, only $$, then the classic "super-rich millionaire playboy" should be able to lay his hands on it, shouldn't he? Just like Joe Military can get that assault rifle and Johnny Streetpunk can have a Saturday night special. "It's consistent with my concept".

 

And would you consider it a problem to say "the line ends here"?

[Mike W]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Flash lights, cell phones and the like, aren't very hard to adjudicate. It's the modified stuff, as I stated, that is hard to deal with. The things that are no longer "standard issue". Also, if you want to have that "flashlight" or whatever it is available all the time, then you do have to pay points for it. And cell phones are fine if you want to call your teammate, but they aren't nearly as good as team radios on a secure channel.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Punisher gets his break already through limitations - OAF, Real world, charges, etc. The charges also have a side benefit of not costing him any END, which is another bonus. Meanwhile, Optic Blast Man pays full points for his powers, and either pays END or pays MORE points to buy reduced END. It's just the special effect of why Punisher can dish out that damage.

 

Special effects can go both ways, so it's a wash, IMO. Punisher can more easily disguise himself as "Assassin X" to go undercover, and probably doesn't even need to change more than his costume. Optic Blast Man's distinctive power signature makes keeping the secret harder. Of course, it's also much easier for someone else to impersonate the Punisher. If Punisher's guns get taken away, ten minutes in a police station or agent base and he's good to go again. If OBM's mutant powers get neutralized, it's probably going to be a more involved process to restore them. Punisher can't go through airport security, but OBM shows up on mutant scanners.

 

Just because something is "real world" doesn't mean it should be readily available in a superhero game. Being real doesn't mean it's ubiquitous. Everyone can have a cell phone and a flashlight, and carry them around without people looking at them funny in most cases. Not so with an Uzi. In another setting, for guns to be "standard equipment" would be OK. If in the Old West Supers game pretty much *everyone* walks around with a pistol to take care of varmints and rustlers, no one should have to pay points for it.

 

Why stop with equipment? A real world person could get a 20 Str, 20 Dex, etc. - why should I have to pay points for those stats? A real world person could know the President - why pay points for the contacts? We pay points for those things not readily available without significant effort/drawbacks - everything else is a "gimme"/Everyman skill, like your base 10 stats and your Stealth 8-.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

We're just moving further up the line of "tough to lay your hands on". Once we say "Real world equipment costs no points", the next obvious question becomes where that line ends. All of the items above are real world tech. If it doesn't cost points, only $$, then the classic "super-rich millionaire playboy" should be able to lay his hands on it, shouldn't he? Just like Joe Military can get that assault rifle and Johnny Streetpunk can have a Saturday night special. "It's consistent with my concept".

 

And as soon as Rich Boy uses those weapons in a public way they are traced back to him, and he is imprisoned for all kinds of weapons violations.

 

If it doesn't cost points, it comes with real world limitations which will be enforced.

 

If you pay points for it, it is in some ways "part" of your character... and thus you'll likely have them most of the time... and secondly, if lost or broken, the replacement is handwaved "back at the base."

 

Captain Rambo would be hunted by the authorities and eventually caught and captured if he existed in my campaigns. Lone wolf killer vigilantes don't last long... and if they didn't pay for their guns, they'd last even less, as the weapons were traced, etc.

 

Just because something is "free" doesn't mean its even remotely available. Just because Rich Boy wants a F-15 doesn't mean it is easy to get... and trying to get one might be an adventure in and of itself... JUST LIKE IN A HEROIC GAME.

 

I don't see other people making claims that Perks and such are broken in Heroic games... so why are they broken in superheroic?

 

Finally... all "real world" guns are likely to be much less effective in DC levels and such than powers paid for by points. Then factor in amunition, encumbrance, etc. Just packing a whole bunch of guns "because I can" really isn't some great benefit.

 

(As for Batman's stuff... if someone wants metal boomerangs shaped like Bats to throw at people, but doesn't want to pay points... they are getting something very lame and likely to be all but worthless in combat. If they want to knock grown men out with one shot and pin their arms to the wall with them... that is superpowers in function, pay points.)

[Katherine]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

I think it comes to down this: If you have players that want to carry around large amount of firearms and similar equipment, then in your campaign this is going to have some impact on combat because if your PCs are so powerful they can't be touched by conventional technology, its not an issue really.

 

Ask yourself (and your players): this:

 

Character A has 2d6 Armor Peircing RKA +1 OCV, OAF, 12 Change sfx :Big gun with a laser signt loaded with cop killer bullets.

 

Character B has a 2d6 RKA Armor Peircing +1 OCV, 12 Charges sfx: X Ray Laser Pistol from Alpha Centuari

 

Does it bother them if Character A gets his attack for "Free" while Character B has to spend Character points?

 

Some will say no, others will say yes

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Just because something is "real world" doesn't mean it should be readily available in a superhero game. Being real doesn't mean it's ubiquitous. Everyone can have a cell phone and a flashlight, and carry them around without people looking at them funny in most cases. Not so with an Uzi. In another setting, for guns to be "standard equipment" would be OK. If in the Old West Supers game pretty much *everyone* walks around with a pistol to take care of varmints and rustlers, no one should have to pay points for it.

 

Exactly... which is one of the major drawbacks of NOT paying points. This is where the balance comes in. You don't pay points but still want to be Mr. Puni-clone, you are going to find it very difficult. You'll spend most of your game time trying to outfit yourself... and never have as good equipment as "I Paid Points Man" will have without effort.

[Katherine]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Something did occur to me. If you constantly going to punish "I want lots of stuff" Man with the real world consquences of having effective gear until he pays points for them and his stuff will never be as good then you're really not "giving" him the stuff. Why not just insist he pay points from the beginning?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Ok... let's say I post this another way.

 

I'm going to run a Heroic level game... but I'm not going to enforce NCM for characters and the full range of Powers is available to build your character.

 

Would that cause as many issues. I don't think so, and it is the same game, just looking at it from the other direction.

 

If you wanted a laser rifle from Antares X... well, you'd have to pay points... or wait until somehow you just came across it in play.

 

The fact is, this has not proven to be an issue in the game I've run so far where only one of five character has bothered to carry guns... and only really used them twice in ten adventures. I'd like to go back to my super-mercs game... where everybody is a cybered up martial artist and gun totin' bad-ass... and see what happens if we drop the points spent on multi-power weapon pools and allowed folks to have "real weapons" without points. Would we see a massive overpowering of characters... would some weapons stay paid for in points to avoid real world issues?

 

I dunno... but it's worth trying.

 

Just me... willing to kill just about any sacred cow just to see how it tastes.

[incrdbil]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

All of my comments reflect a 350 point non street level campaign.

 

I comes down to fairness. I'm not going to let characters have free attacks that others have to pay for. I don't care what you say about real world this, real world that--we all know we'd see wonder guy, defense industrialist/mercenray/millionaire popping up the moment the real world equipment floodgates completely open. For whatever fragility they may have, their availability and impact will be significant in what the character can accomplish. (sure, my rifle/pitols are only real world..but that Find Weakness with all firearms)

 

If its combat insiginicant (like a flashlight or a cell phone) thats good. Those items have so many potential limitations limited use that it won't kill a game. A Calculator--well thats ok. Night vision goggles used on a regualr basis--pay for it. If taken OAF, fragile, and all appropriate limitations, it's not going to cost much anyway.

 

But if someone wants to pack around a weapon of combat significance (A 9MM in a 350 supers campaign isn't, an M-60 is) it's going to be careful scrutiny. If its character dressing that rarely comes into play, sure. If the character plans on using the weapon in combat regulalry, prepare to spend points. Laptop with state of the art decryption programs in a high tech campaign where such an item would be very valuable..nope.

 

It's a game balance trumping reality bit. No cash-purchased body armor. If a PC is loaned such a vest just once as part of a deception, more of a costum than protection, thats ok. (I might not even let if have effect on someone with more than double the resistant defenses the vest already has). He starts wearing it on a daily basis..uh uh.

 

If we want to have that type of campaign, then it may as well be a non powers campaign. The innate powers characters will be obsolete compared to the group of rich well connected gunbunnies that will suddenly populate the hero world using 'real world tech'.

[Katherine]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Ok... let's say I post this another way.

 

I'm going to run a Heroic level game... but I'm not going to enforce NCM for characters and the full range of Powers is available to build your character.

 

So you would be running a Superheroic game that allows character to have equipment for free?

 

Would that cause as many issues. I don't think so, and it is the same game, just looking at it from the other direction.

 

If you wanted a laser rifle from Antares X... well, you'd have to pay points... or wait until somehow you just came across it in play.

 

But somone could have an Assault Rifle that did, in game terms, the exact same thing for free? That makes me have to loose out on something in my character for a what boils down to a Special Effect.

 

The fact is, this has not proven to be an issue in the game I've run so far where only one of five character has bothered to carry guns... and only really used them twice in ten adventures. I'd like to go back to my super-mercs game... where everybody is a cybered up martial artist and gun totin' bad-ass... and see what happens if we drop the points spent on multi-power weapon pools and allowed folks to have "real weapons" without points. Would we see a massive overpowering of characters... would some weapons stay paid for in points to avoid real world issues?

 

I dunno... but it's worth trying.

 

Just me... willing to kill just about any sacred cow just to see how it tastes.

 

Well, RDU Neil you seem to have a group of heavy genre enthsiaists of the type that are willing to sacrifice some degree of character "efficency" for reality simulation. I mean you really seem to have made up your mind about it and if it works for your group, then its good. But I don't think its the kind of thing that would work for every group or every gm, or every campaign.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Before I dig in on this, I'd like to define my ideas of Heroic versus Superheroic, or rather, a game where you buy equipment with money versus a game where you buy equipment with points.

 

Heroic: Characters may or may not have special powers or abilities or may even be "super" in some ways, but are typically "normal" people. All normal equipment is paid for with money, with normal meaning anything availabe on the equipment purchase list given to you by the GM. Anything else needs to be okayed by the GM and should be justified with a Perk. Extremely special equipment might have to be paid for with points (like a magic sword, or a unique-tech ray gun). The character are defined by their skills and personality, as whatever equipment they have is available to anyone and are often identical to that used by their allies and enemies.

 

Superheroic: Characters are almost always "super" and possess powers or abilities that set them apart from "normal" characters. Character must buy all equipment with points, with equipment meaning anything of obvious in-game value (guns: yes, Bugle Boy jeans: no). Even real-world or common use equipment must be paid for with points should the character decide to use them. Equipment need not even be actual equipment, but just look like equipment for the purposes of game play (i.e. no focus limitation). In all cases, the characters are unique and often defined by their powers or equipment as much, if not more than, their skills and personality.

 

It's those little bits in bold that nail it down for me. If the characters are to be defined by the powers they have or the equipment they carry, it's a superheroic game and they pay points for it. If the equipment they use is just a tool to get the job done, the game is probably heroic and they spend money. In a money game, everybody has the same stuff, so there's no balance issue. In a superheroic game, everybody has different stuff, so everybody should have to pay points for what they have.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Oh, and as an obversavation, I view the Punisher as a heroic level protagonist who occasionally visits the superheroic stories. His allies typically use guns, the same as he does, as do his enemies. They are just tool, and unimportant to the story... unless he's trying to kill Spiderman with them.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Before I dig in on this, I'd like to define my ideas of Heroic versus Superheroic, or rather, a game where you buy equipment with money versus a game where you buy equipment with points.

 

Heroic: Characters may or may not have special powers or abilities or may even be "super" in some ways, but are typically "normal" people. All normal equipment is paid for with money, with normal meaning anything availabe on the equipment purchase list given to you by the GM. Anything else needs to be okayed by the GM and should be justified with a Perk. Extremely special equipment might have to be paid for with points (like a magic sword, or a unique-tech ray gun). The character are defined by their skills and personality, as whatever equipment they have is available to anyone and are often identical to that used by their allies and enemies.

 

Superheroic: Characters are almost always "super" and possess powers or abilities that set them apart from "normal" characters. Character must buy all equipment with points, with equipment meaning anything of obvious in-game value (guns: yes, Bugle Boy jeans: no). Even real-world or common use equipment must be paid for with points should the character decide to use them. Equipment need not even be actual equipment, but just look like equipment for the purposes of game play (i.e. no focus limitation). In all cases, the characters are unique and often defined by their powers or equipment as much, if not more than, their skills and personality.

 

It's those little bits in bold that nail it down for me. If the characters are to be defined by the powers they have or the equipment they carry, it's a superheroic game and they pay points for it. If the equipment they use is just a tool to get the job done, the game is probably heroic and they spend money. In a money game, everybody has the same stuff, so there's no balance issue. In a superheroic game, everybody has different stuff, so everybody should have to pay points for what they have.

 

Excellent post! Repped

[Hyper-Man]

is there another way to mix in powers with NCM besides magic?

 

This is a good topic for discussion.

 

I agree that a 'supers' campaign should require all equipment be paid for in points.

 

However, what about something like the anime Witch Hunter Robin or Full Metal Alchemist? Some might argue that both just have very esoteric magic users. Outlaw Star (another anime) was a colorful space opera with Tau Magic and Caster shells (shotgun shells with different spells inside). Surbrook's page has an excellent writup of the last one built with the 'supers' assumption even though several characters have nothing outside the range of 'heroic' abilities including NCM. Even the side plots of the show repeatedly revolve around the main character's lack of cash (needed to repair their spaceship, buy new caster shells, eat and pay rent, etc...) so an argument can be made that the main character's caster gun might just be a hard to find item of the age but not worth points itself. The one 'powered' (basically a were-wolf) core character is just a typical member of her alien race which in and of itself should not invalidate the 'heroic' feel of the campaign.

 

Just my ramblings....

 

HM

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Would you have a problem with a brick carrying around a sack of 25-pound metal ball bearings all the time for free?

[Storn]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

In all seriousness... if a Heroic level character had Leader of Nation... would you just allow him to fly around in attack helicopters at will. Would you actually allow such a perk? C'mon... it's a specious argument. Perks don't guarantee such things... just give a more solid role playing reason why they MIGHT be available... and I'll tell you this... the downside of having such a Perk would highly outweigh the upside. Those are role playing cues... and subject to all the same issues. Abuse your wealth... likely to lose that perk... same with Leader of Nation.

 

And attack helicopters are not all that they are cracked up to me. Force Wall is a bitch on rotary blades. {My teke took out 3 helicopters with just such a tactic}.

 

First up, I agree with Neil. In RDU it will be interesting to try this out, because we've been playing this game for years. And we know that if Legionairre, UNTIL super, arms himself with an assault rifle, several clips, a couple of grenades and a 9mm sidearm (which would be SO many points that the absorbing super hero could NOT be built)... it will NOT change the balance. Legionnaire's main abilities are his absorbing abilities (drains others powers, retains a bit of that power)

 

Also, the way we've built military characters up to now, they are FREAKIN' EXPENSIVE concepts! Stealth skills, martial art skill, WE, trans fams, combat skills, appropriate KS's... etc, etc. etc. Often these characters are stretched too thin, too far compared to equivalent pt non-equipment users.

 

Next, RDU has always supposed that guns are dangerous. Unless you have the defenses, you should be afraid of an assault rifle. And in our Malta game, where defenses are kept low on purpose, because we want gun fu, those characters can take bullets, but not on the scale of Super Heroes of LESS pts.

 

The other part of the RDU spectrum is that a bunch of folks will laugh at LAWS much less assault rifles. And real power in RDU is influence, not superpowers, although influence has been garnered because of paranormal abilities. Guns, equipment don't change that paradigm at all.

 

So, it is Neil and my SUGGESTION to some, that you try this. You are under no obligation. It might not work in your game. But I have this feeling that this is going to work out really well for RDU.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Is Punisher the problem?

 

Would you have a problem with a brick carrying around a sack of 25-pound metal ball bearings all the time for free?

 

Nope... not at all. It's been done... but was essentially a brick with a bag of rocks. The fact that those ball bearings would translate into nothing more than pistol ammunition with major minuses to hit, because nothing says that the brick is any good at flinging them... so it would be fine.

 

I have a TK in the game now. Really scary if he decided to try the same trick... but again... throwing something with TK or STR doesn't give you auto hits, or make the attack super strong. Now, this TK guy has "bought with points" an 5d6 RKA with the -1/4 limitation "available scrap/shrapnel" with the SFX of hyper-accelerating them through a target" Paid points to guarantee a powerful effect. If the player suddenly tried to get rid of that power, and claim the "sack of ball bearings" concept for free... he'd get nowhere near the effect. In fact, there is nothing to say that this character couldn't claim... right now in a full Points game, that he carries a sack of ball bearings around so that he has at least a couple shots with his RKA guaranteed. Why would this change be any different.

 

Heck... it could happen. I could change this rule and suddenly all my players turn into equipment munchkins who try to break the game at every opportunity.

 

The fact is... only Dust Raven has provided a solid argument against it... and that is in terms of genre convention.

 

defined by their powers and equipment

 

While to some extent, yes, this does happen... it is not a major part of our gaming experience. We don't really have the Capt. America type who is "defined" by the shield he carried. We had the Torreador... a super swordsman with "the sword of god" that could cut anything... and yes, that defined him, but then he paid points for such a thing, and still would. It was unique and really powerful... and quite rare to my game to have such. We aren't in the mode of trying to recreate comic books as much as take the concepts of supers and do what we want with them... not what genre supposedly dictates.

 

Come to think of it... when it comes to that alien laser rifle issue... if a character somehow justified, within the scope of the game... having access to one... I'd allow it. And take it away just as quickly when it fit the story as well. It would not be an item that "defined" the character... but just something that they had and use. If they did "define" their character with it, but chose not to pay points... they are likely to be very bummed when their character becomes a void concept when it breaks.

 

So... it really comes down to genre. Points for equipment is genre defining. I accept that. My game has long since stopped being about conforming to a genre. Yeah... this is a seismic shift in thought... but not really one in play experience for me. Thanks Dust Raven, for actually clarifying this for me. Essentially my game has been Heroic with powers for some time... not superheroic as you define it, even if we have 600 point demi-gods running around.

 

Interesting. We'll see how this plays out going forward. It could shift the game, to consciously recognize this with the group... or it could change little or nothing. We'll see.

 

Thanks for all the conversation, folks.