What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

[KA.]

Let me begin by saying that I am starting this thread with an open mind and the best of intentions.

 

I have played a lot of RPG's over the years:

AD&D

Top Secret

Gamma World

Traveller

Call of Cthulhu

Champions

Justice Inc.

Bushido

The Arcanum

Villains and Vigilantes

and probably a few more that I don't remember.

 

These experiences have ranged from a single adventure to a lengthy campaign.

 

However, I have not played a lot of more recent RPG's (Vampire the Masquerade, D20, Mutants and Masterminds, etc.), so I do not completely trust my evaluation of the "start up" requirements of various RPG's, especially newer ones.

 

So, what I am looking for is input from those who have played many systems.

 

I understand that different games have different levels of complexity, and detail, and that an RPG is expected to be more difficult to learn than, say, Yahtzee.

 

But I would like you to, for the moment, place yourself in the position of a new gamer.

 

You venture into your local game store, and want to buy an RPG, but which one?

 

You decide to browse through the books and pick a system, and buy whatever you need to get started playing.

 

Let's start with Hero.

Sidekick looks like a good bet. Glancing through the index you notice that there are 115 pages of rules.

That doesn't seem like too much for you to handle.

Then you notice that there are only 11 pages of things that aren't rules.

And only three example characters.

It looks like you are going to need another book or two.

 

Pressing on past the table of contents you see on the next page that this system can be used for multiple genres.

 

That sounds good, you won't have to keep relearning the rules.

 

When you see the word 'Champions' you remember that you heard someone mention that as a superhero game that was really good, so you decide you want to try that.

 

What else do you need to buy?

 

Going by the blurbs in the Hero Games Catalog:

Champions - shows you how to use Hero to run a Superhero campaign, sounds pretty vital.

 

Champions Universe/Millenium City - If you don't already have the experience to build a campaign world, you are going to need somewhere for your adventures to take place. Sounds like you need one or the other of these.

 

Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks - Oh, okay, there is a book of villains. Since you don't really know enough to make up your own, you probably need this.

 

Champions Battlegrounds - Oh yeah, you have heard of these. People call them 'modules' they are great if you are just getting started.

 

Let's see, what is this going to cost me:

 

$9.99 +

$29.99 +

$21.99 +

$24.99 +

$24.99

---------

$111.95

 

And if I read it all, it will add up to 836 pages.

 

Which means that if I start as soon as school lets out, I may get in one game before the summer is over.

 

I am not trying to tilt this in any direction.

I am trying to look at it like I just walked in a game store and wanted to try an RPG.

 

What I am asking is, what are the start-up costs/time for other popular games?

 

After all, even if you are the guru with all the answers, if your mountain is so high that no one ever tries to climb it, all your great advice is useless.

 

KA.

[Katherine]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

When I started Hero/Champions I got the Hero System Fifth Edition book "Fred" and that's it. It took me about 3 hours spread over 3 days to get the gist of the system. Our first session was mostly me explaining it to the others and creating characters. We picked up most of the other stuff in actual play with some book flipping. We're not experts at the system by any means now, but we still have to look things up For Aberrant too and at least with Hero ususally there is something there when you do look it up.

 

If you want to make a similiar comparison. For D and D 3.5. You'll need the Players Handbook

The Dungeon Master's Handbook (optional, IMO, but some of the things listed as "required" for Champions were optional IMO too.)

A Monster Manuel/guide

A setting book of some sort of you don't want to flesh out the world yourself.

 

I believe most of these books are hardbacks.

 

For the new World of Darkness you need

The WOD corebook (A hardbrack, about 30 bucks)

and Vampire the Requiem, Werewolf, the Forsaken, etc if you want to play more then Mortals.

Antagonists for advice on creating monsters (if you need it)

Ghost Stories for "modules"

Hidden Bloodlines if you want more vampires and vampire powers

 

Exalted:

Exalted Corebook. You could conieveably play with just that, but I'd reccomend:

Scavenger Sons

Exalted:The Dragonblooded at least

If you want the "complete" game there is a series of 4 hardbacks in total to get each about 30 bucks.

There's a ton of books you don't really "need" as well.

[incrdbil]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

And if I read it all, it will add up to 836 pages.

 

Which means that if I start as soon as school lets out, I may get in one game before the summer is over.

 

What are you sking? Am I the new player seeking to find a new game and run it myself? Or am I a new player, aware of what games are out there, and looking to join in.

 

As a new player, Sidekick, and maybe Champions if my group isn't big on helping or sharing is really all I need.

 

As I get into the game, I start grabbing what I like. when I decide to run., I'd likely wouldn't mind CKC.

 

Let's look at some other common games.

 

D&D. Well, to play, I just grab the PHB, in theorey. With d20 glut-itess, who knows what myriad of tomes a group is actually using to make PC's.

 

More Likely, its a PHB, then some specialty book. Then, as I become a more continuos player, their are the official WotC 'omplete books ' fighter, cleric, mage..it goes on and on). The Hero player is laughing at me by this point.

 

then there are the myriad setting books aimed at players. the Players Guide to Faerun. the Silvber Marches..it goes on.

 

Let's say I"m up to DM level. Well, DMG, Monster manual, settign book. Then I notice theirs probably a Magic book for that setting; then a monster ook for that setting. Then the moduules. then all the 'optional' d20 books over specific topics the group wants, and now you have to get familiar with. then someone wants psionics. I then grit my teeth at the thought of 4th edition..and run screaming for Fantasy Hero.

 

Whew.

 

Ok With the d20 spin off games, you add PHB, the spin off rule book, setting book..and all of them seem filled with a myriad of accessory books, so its not quite as involved as D&D, but close.

 

 

Let's see, Battletech RPG--the Main Book, LostTech (for equipment), the Companion, then a settign book.

 

shadowrun--Main Book, Magic Expansion(s), the decking book, rigger book, Cyberwear/bioware/gear book, maybe a setting book, but they are adding expansion books with timeline driven additions, so there probably more you would wind up adding to have all character options.

 

I don't know how the World of Darkness is, but it used to be Main Book, Sect books (multiple ones you would up needing), then the Clanbooks of the various Clans of your PC's as a minimum..you couldn't keep up with their dreaded splatbooks.

 

Rifts: Buy one bad set of rules, and 5 bajillion sourcebooks.

 

Oh god, i could go on, but I'd really have to care a lot more. Hero's not more burdensome, or less than most games for someone who really gets into it.

 

A game is as expensive, or cheap, as you want it to be, and based on your degree of obsessive completeness.

[OddHat]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

I love Hero System. I respect the current Keepers of the Flame (the DoJ), and show that respect by spending my money. That said, I think a Sidekick II with a dozen bad guys, two mini-adventures, and a cliff notes version of Millenium City would be a great packeage for new gamers.

 

OTOH, I think we may be optimistic in our assumptions of just how many new gamers are out there, and how easy they are to reach. It's a small hobby, and most of the regular posters on this board are (as far as I can tell) 30+ year old guys who've been fiddling with this game forever.

 

GURPS is the closest thing to Hero on the market, is arguably more widely available (I can buy GURPS books in Borders; I can't buy Hero books anywhere in my area), and requires at least as much of an investment before you can get down to playing. At least you can pick up just Sidekick and maybe CKC and start GMing the next day.

[KA.]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

Thanks to all for the replies.

 

Katherine and incrdbil,

Thanks for the detailed analysis of other systems. Based on that it looks like Hero isn't really much worse than other systems as far as initial outlay, which is what I was wondering.

 

Oddhat,

I agree with the idea of something like Sidekick II, or a genre specific Sidekick companion books like Sidekick:Champions or Sidekick:Fantasy.

When I was a teenager, oh so many years ago, it was fairly common for one of my friends to buy a game on Monday and the rest of us be playing it by the weekend.

There have been discussions about the downturn in the RPG industry, but I think one of the main ones might be accessibility.

Game companies seem to be run by people like us, guys that have been gaming for 20 years or so.

What we tend to want is more and more detail, more and more realism, more and more complexity.

But when we were new gamers, we wanted something we could actually play.

 

To use an example from a different industry.

Many people start out drinking sweet fruity wines.

As time goes on, and their palate gets more refined, they tend to prefer the drier, more 'sophisticated' wines. (I never reached that stage, but that is what I hear. )

But what if those 'sophisticated' people eventually owned the wineries, and decided that they would only produce the 'dry' wines that they prefer?

After a while, sales would drop off, because there would be no new wine drinkers.

Young people who tried the 'bitter' wines that were available, would never get started drinking wine in the first place, which means as older wine drinkers died off, there would be fewer and fewer customers.

 

I think Hero has done an excellent job of producing a fine vintage that a connoisseur can appreciate.

 

But they need to be putting out a small line of Boone's Farm too.

 

Because if young people never get started, they won't be future customers.

 

KA.

[Hyper-Man]

Boone's Farm Hero vs. Mad Dog 20/20 Hero?!

 

But they need to be putting out a small line of Boone's Farm too.

 

Because if young people never get started, they won't be future customers.

 

KA.

 

Boone's Farm Hero!

 

I like it.

 

HM

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

I can really only compare to two other systems, D&D and Palladium.

 

With D&D, you first need to want to play a fantasy game, while both Hero and Palladium have several genres available. Let's assume that I the potential new player, wants to play fantasy after watching LOtR.

 

To play D&D, all I need as a player is the PHB, but I want to run the game for my friends, so I need that plus the DMG and the MM at a minimum. I don't my campaign to be Middle Earth (or else I just would have picked up that RPG), but I don't want to take the time to design my own, so lets say I pick up a published one (such as Forgotten Realms). I really don't need anything else. I have all the rules I need, a list of monsters, a way to make enemies and a solid setting. Total cost to me: $130 (I believe the current cost of the core books is $30 each, plus FR is $40). My players would make use of the PHB, and might like their own copy of FR, but it isn't necessary, so lets say they just buy the PHB for $30.

 

With Palladium, every thing I need for play is inside one $30 book (last I checked the price, it might has changed). It even has a basic setting and some monsters. Not as detailed or as numerous as what I'd get with D&D, but it's there. Just to be certain though, I'll pick up the Palladium Bestiary and one of their "Lands" books, each cost about $20 bucks each (Palladium has the cheepest books on the market to the best of my knowledge). So all I need to spend is $70 bucks and you're good to go, and as with D&D, if a player wants to pick up the rulebook, all he spends is $30.

 

Now to Hero System. I have a choice of rulebooks. I can pick up Sidekick for $10, or the Fith Edition Revised for $50. I go for the gusto and pick up the big book. Because Hero is a modular system without genre, I have to buy a genre book unless I know everything I feel I need to about the genre. I'm a young, inexperienced gammer so I figure it's probably a good idea to do so. That's about $30. As with the other games, I'll want a monster book, and MMM is also about $30. I'll also need a setting book, and The Turakian Age runs about $30. For now, we'll assume I don't want to buy any other prefab books and can make my own spells and such based on the guidelines I'll find in FH. I'm spending $140 for my books, and if my players want a book they can pick up Sidekick for $10 or 5ER for $50, their choice.

 

How does it break down? Money-wise, Palladium is the cheepest, and likeliest the easiest to use. I also feel it's a good system to cut your teeth on because compared to other rule systems it sucks. Once you try something else you'll realize you wasted $70 bucks and will feel guilty about convincing all your players into spending money on those books as well. Then again, you could just house rules just about everything and play with it like any other hard core Palladium fan... but you get what you pay for.

 

D&D runs just a tiny bit cheeper than Hero, and it does most of the work for you. The only downside is that if you don't like how something is done you need to make a house rule for it, and you have no way outside of game play to guess if the house rule is more or less balanced than what you changed. Assuming you keep it all the same (no house rules), you can be very happy with this system though. The biggest downside is expanding. If you want more spells, more classes, more feats, etc. you'll need to buy more books. Those handy class books (such as Sword & Fist and Defenders of the Faith) are great! They only cost about $20 bucks each, but that's still $20 bucks and you need to buy like 5 or six of them to cover all of the classes in the book. There are even additional books published under the OGL and cover each class and race specifically which are quite nice.

 

Hero System is bit more difficult for a new gammer to wrap their brain around. If they've never played RPGs before, it might be a bit easier, as they won't have any preconceptions of what anything means. Then again, without any experience with RPGs, some things might be missed. It's certainly an easier game to learn to play than it is to learn to GM. The biggest bonus to Hero System, however, has to do with it's adaptability. If you suddenly wanted to play a space opera game, you'd have to run out and spend $100+ in additional books for another game, if you played anyting other than Hero. With hero, all you need is the Star Hero genre book and the Terran Empire settingbook. Not only will you save some money, you won't have to learn any new rules. It's the same game. Even d20 can't do that. It's close, but not quite the same.

 

Of course, you really have no way of making all of these obsevations while leafing though books at your FLGS. You'll probably have to pick one and hope for the best. Palladium is cheep, and D&D is colorful and pretty. Hero looks drab and dry. I'd probably go with D&D if I had never played before, just because I'd likely have heard of it and not the others and because it has nice arts of lots of obvious examples. I probably wouldn't pick up Hero unless someone actually suggested it to me and told me how it was better than D&D. Even then, I probably wouldn't pick up Hero unless I wanted to play in multiple genres. If all I wanted was Fantasy, I'd see Hero as a waste of time and pick something else. This is how I think a new gammer would think, or at least how I would think if I were a new gamer.

 

To use an example from a different industry.

Many people start out drinking sweet fruity wines.

As time goes on, and their palate gets more refined, they tend to prefer the drier, more 'sophisticated' wines. (I never reached that stage, but that is what I hear. )

But what if those 'sophisticated' people eventually owned the wineries, and decided that they would only produce the 'dry' wines that they prefer?

After a while, sales would drop off, because there would be no new wine drinkers.

Young people who tried the 'bitter' wines that were available, would never get started drinking wine in the first place, which means as older wine drinkers died off, there would be fewer and fewer customers.

 

I think Hero has done an excellent job of producing a fine vintage that a connoisseur can appreciate.

 

But they need to be putting out a small line of Boone's Farm too.

 

Because if young people never get started, they won't be future customers.

 

KA.

 

I don't see Hero System as being like a refined, bitter wine. I got in on the system fairly early on. I had played Palladium for a while, and did a bit with D&D, but never really liked the rules for either system. The only reason I played Palladium was becuase Palladium published a Robotech RPG. If Hero had done that, I'd have played Hero from the start. And if there was a d20 Robotech, I'd have played that... the rules didn't matter, it was the setting.

 

Which leads me to my final realization. Hero doesn't need a flashy book with pretty colors to hypnotize the new gammer; doesn't need a flagship/sportscar plug and play stand alone game. It needs an attractive setting book that lots of potential new gammers can identify with. While it might look like an emulation of SJG, what Hero could make the most use of is a line of "how Hero does this pupular setting" books. a LOtR Settingbook. An X-Men/Marvel Settingbook. A Wild Cards Settingbook. A Star Wars/Star Trek/Battlestar Galactica/etc Settingbook. Something that will grab the potential player's attention and make him say "hey, I know what that is!" and have him pick up the book.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

This is an interesting topic. Let me start by saying that I am rather unusual in that I tend to:

 

1.) Buy a book, read it cover to cover, and remember enough of it for long enough that I can run a game--provided there isn't too much of a time gap--with only a little referencing of the book. (Let me mention briefly that of the systems I list below, D&D is the ONLY system for which I would never be able to do this).

 

2.) Be ready to drop significant portions of rule mechanics and source material in an instant and replace it with my own ideas. This can be a lot of work, but I consider it worth it.

 

3.) Be stubborn when it comes to buying books. I should only need a book or two to run a full game, damn it! Any system that makes me do more is either not worth it, or is repugnant enough that I feel no compunction about grubbing material from anyone in any manner necessary to avoid buying books. Any system which does meet my criteria I feel pretty good about, and am usually willing to buy supplemental materials if they might be nice to have.

 

All of that being said, here is a brief history of my roleplaying experiences with different systems:

 

D&D

I bought a 2nd ed. Player's Handbook and DMG. Shortly thereafter I bought an old binder-held Monsterous Compendium. Since, I have bought a Psionics Handbook, Monster Manual and I have been given a couple of old modules and stuff. I have nothing more. I have not bought any 3rd ed. books, and I may never do so. I simply borrow or work out of friends' books when I need to. I did download and print out the open material from their webpage, but this is mostly for referencing while I am doing conversions to other systems . (Oh, and I play a lot of D&D. )

 

Whitewolf Games (Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, Wraith, and even Changeling)

I have every 2nd ed. core book except for Vampire (I'll find a copy eventually). I also bought Mage: Sorcerer's Crusade. Aside from Hero, these are my favorite games, and are a toss up with D&D for most played/GMed.

 

I don't like most of the stuff they did in terms of source material and cross-game mechanics in 3rd ed. and beyond, so I have kind of boycotted all of those books, and just incorporated a few system mechanics changes into my 2nd ed. games. These are really simple systems, and I know most of them by heart. I've also bought a couple of source books with monsters, spirits, faction info, etc. (oh, and one module). I ingore most of the things in most "handbooks," clanbooks, etc., and source books on principal (I like it when the world is left quite open-ended).

 

I recently bought the revised World of Darkness book, and Vampire the Requiem, but only because I got them half off for GMing at a store when they were released. I may buy Werewolf. I will probably buy Mage when it comes out (my favorite of the WoD games). I don't like the basic games mechanics as much as I did for 2nd ed. They are too inflexible and D&D-like (what a surprise ).

 

Hero

I bought 4th ed. Champions after reading through my friend's copy thoroughly. I bought 5ed as soon as it appeared on a bookshelf. I found one of the mentalist source books at a garage sale and couldn't pass it up. I have bought the Grimoire for fantasy spells, and the Beastiary for monsters and creatures. I will probably buy Fantasy Hero if it shows up on the bookshelf of my gaming store. I'm pretty open to buying supplements merely because of the fact that they aren't necessary. I guess I don't feel that it is a game of priviledge that requires a huge amount of money, time, and experience like D&D is.

 

Other

I have browsed through or read uncounted game systems. I have played in less, but still a substantial number. I am willing try try just about anything, but I usually don't buy a book unless I really dig them and plan on running a game, or become involved enough in a game that I think I will make decent and regular use out of it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

Let me add a little note about what makes me dislike D&D so much, as it is quite related. YMMV, of course.

 

Not only are there a whole boat-load of rules (usually at least one for each new Feat, Skill, Ability, Race, etc.), but they interact with each other in the most bizarre and unspecified manner possible. If you buy another book, you exponentially increase the complexity. Not only this, but players expect to be able to use anything they find in any book. Even the most experienced gamers can feel humbled and annoyed when someone else finds some little corner-case in some obscure source that gives them another +1.

 

This means that he who plays less often, buys less books, or simply doesn't care to remember whether you can use that Feat while Grappled only if you have at least a +X Base Attack Bonus, but you must have this other Feat, a magic weapon, and 6 ranks in Escape Artist, Tumble, or the F*ck You Up Feat (oh, and for that you need Dodge, Mobility, at least 4 ranks in Diplomacy, and B*tch Slap bought for the same weapon) can get disillusioned quite easily.

 

BTW, I have a pretty good head for game mechanics, as I may have mentioned. I rarely have to look something up in Hero, as the way things interact is usually either simple, or makes sense. Since it is all in the basic rulebook anyway, you don't have to be a millionare to figure out a new Power and how it interacts with everything else (though it may take a little imagination).

[zornwil]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

It's interesting to note that other systems' costs aren't so different at all. But part of KA's argument isn't whether other systems are cheaper or more expensive, but, rather, that as a hobby we're not catering to potential new players well.

 

Along those lines, I agree a boxed singular game with rules, a little bit of setting, and a module or two would be good. But I've said this before.

 

What I found interesting in this thread is the comment about D&D and what you get to play, and the thing is that it just sounds more obvious. A "Player's Handbook", the "GM Guide", and other such titles make it more clear what the path is. HERO is eminently logical to those of us who know it, with "Ultimate" as a resource series, Genre books as suggestions for a genre, Setting books, and other Resource books. But I'm not sure it's simple at all to the guy who walks into the RPG store unaware. Seeing Fantasy HERO, Turakian Age, and Sidekick probably doesn't suggest much, nor do I think the covers/books spell that out well. But I think it would be really simple to fix, just a little paragraph on the back cover or maybe a little 1-page slick left with the books that indicates the basics of what to get to play at first, depending on your needs. Something (only roughly, it'd have to be better than this) like:

 

"If you want just the basic system rules, get Sidekick; if you are an experienced RPGer and want to delve into the rich details of the system, along with guidelines for expanding and configuring the rules for many situations, get HERO System Fifth Edition Revised - look for the green man!

 

If you want to buld your own setting and don't need anything "pregenerated" we have genre books. They all have the name of the genre first and say "HERO" after, such as "Fantasy HERO", "Star HERO" (sci-fi), "Ninja HERO", and so on - the only differently-named ones are "Champions", our superhero game, and "Dark Champions", our modern action hero game.

 

But if you want to get started fast with a ready-made setting we have Turakian Age and related products for Fantasy, Millennium City for Superhero/Champions, Hudson Bay for Dark Champions, (rest here).

 

Other products support special interests and needs, as well as provide inspiration for particular parts of a genre or type of play. Those products each list any required products as well as genres or settings they're built for, as applicable."

 

Something kinda like that. I know there's a bit of a suggestion in that the books do say what they're about, of course, and that they do indicate any required materials. But I'm not sure the path is as clear as with some other brands.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

Something (only roughly, it'd have to be better than this) like:

 

"If you want just the basic system rules, get Sidekick; if you are an experienced RPGer and want to delve into the rich details of the system, along with guidelines for expanding and configuring the rules for many situations, get HERO System Fifth Edition Revised - look for the green man!

 

If you want to buld your own setting and don't need anything "pregenerated" we have genre books. They all have the name of the genre first and say "HERO" after, such as "Fantasy HERO", "Star HERO" (sci-fi), "Ninja HERO", and so on - the only differently-named ones are "Champions", our superhero game, and "Dark Champions", our modern action hero game.

 

But if you want to get started fast with a ready-made setting we have Turakian Age and related products for Fantasy, Millennium City for Superhero/Champions, Hudson Bay for Dark Champions, (rest here).

 

Other products support special interests and needs, as well as provide inspiration for particular parts of a genre or type of play. Those products each list any required products as well as genres or settings they're built for, as applicable."

Doggone it, zornwil! I just repped you day before yesterday!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

I wonder if DOJ has considered using a small ad campaign targeted at game stores with either a handout in a format similar to this or even just a cardboard standup sign with most of major points. This would be a pure up-front expense for DOJ and considering the decision to ask board members to buy direct probably a pipe dream but IMHO it would be a great long term investment towards getting potential new players interrested in the system.

 

HM

 

...snip...

What I found interesting in this thread is the comment about D&D and what you get to play, and the thing is that it just sounds more obvious. A "Player's Handbook", the "GM Guide", and other such titles make it more clear what the path is. HERO is eminently logical to those of us who know it, with "Ultimate" as a resource series, Genre books as suggestions for a genre, Setting books, and other Resource books. But I'm not sure it's simple at all to the guy who walks into the RPG store unaware. Seeing Fantasy HERO, Turakian Age, and Sidekick probably doesn't suggest much, nor do I think the covers/books spell that out well. But I think it would be really simple to fix, just a little paragraph on the back cover or maybe a little 1-page slick left with the books that indicates the basics of what to get to play at first, depending on your needs. Something (only roughly, it'd have to be better than this) like:

...snip...

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

I wonder if DOJ has considered using a small ad campaign targeted at game stores with either a handout in a format similar to this or even just a cardboard standup sign with most of major points. This would be a pure up-front expense for DOJ and considering the decision to ask board members to buy direct probably a pipe dream but IMHO it would be a great long term investment towards getting potential new players interrested in the system.

 

HM

 

I'm not too sure it works that way. I'm not sure about game/comic stores specifically, but in the case of many retail stores, the manufacturer must pay for shelf and display space, and this is a recurring charge.

[zornwil]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

I'm not too sure it works that way. I'm not sure about game/comic stores specifically' date=' but in the case of many retail stores, the manufacturer must pay for shelf and display space, and this is a recurring charge.[/quote']

It just varies a bit. I've worked with our POS/POP/whichever acronym you prefer stuff and there's many variations. Some accounts get an allowance and beyond that they have to buy. Some just have to buy anything/everything. And occasionally, particularly for brand-critical marketing, we just make and send something for all to use. It just depends on both the retailer and the situation. I'm speaking of the world in general, though, and not RPGs specifically. Still, I suspect that WOTC, considering who they're owned by, do something with variations like that. Likely none of the other RPG companies can afford to do such, though.

[zornwil]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

Doggone it' date=' zornwil! I just repped you day before yesterday![/quote']

Thx, no worries, I'll try to be uninteresting and thoughtless for a while.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

As a player who works with homebrew campaigns only, and has ever since TSR sent me screaming from my local bookstore after I purchased the ancient grey box labeled Forgotten Realms and decided that I needed more.... oi the plethora of books was staggering.

 

This is JUST to play and run a game mind you..

 

D&D:

what I could have purchased: PHB, DMG, MM .... clocks in around a $100ish.

(what I did purchase: PHB, DMG, Two Class Books, Psionics Handbook, two Dungeon Magazines .. clocked in at well over $130ish+ta.x)

 

Hero:

what I could have purchased: Fifth Edition Rulebook - (at the time $40) - $50+tax.

(what I have purchased: FREd, Sidekick, STAR Hero, Beastiary, Ultimate Brick $130+tax.)

 

Now let's look at what I can DO with those purchases.

 

D&D with

What I could have purchased: run a campaign in a fantasy setting

What I did purchase: run a campaign in a fantasy setting, with some more rules to learn.

 

Hero with

What I could have purchases: run a campaign in anything I can imagine

What I did purchase: run a campaign in anything I can imagine, with some examples to go from for a few genres.

 

Personally, I got more bang for my buck with HERO, so it's not so much a question of How Much You Spend but What You Can Do With What You Purchased.

 

 

my thoughts on the whole Cost Of Entry.

 

[Ah, BTW, I had to snicker just slightly when Vampire/Werewolf/Storyteller was called a "new" game .. when I was playing it near fifteen years ago. My how time is relative on occasion.]

[CourtFool]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

If only we could get Hero in Wal*Mart.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

If only we could get Hero in Wal*Mart.

 

A very fair point. I know a lot of bookshops and even toyshops (I first discovered DnD in a toyshop, a long time ago) that stock WOD and DnD, but you generally need a specialist retailer for Hero stuff.

 

Anyway, other games systems?

 

Notice how most systems come out as cheap first editions, pick up fans and then get more expensive? Hero used to be like that....back in the day.

 

There are not many decent game systems you can get for the price of sidekick, mind you as it isn't even available on Amazon, the point is pretty moot. Even eBay only has a few copies. Maybe this is a hint: it has sold out - print more.

 

There are some absolutely stonking games out there though that haven't got all the baggage of DnD and WOD: one book wonders like Godlike and Unknown Armies. Still in the $30-$40 range, but that is all you really need to play.

 

Personally I am not big into genre books, even Champions: I tend to prefer my own little worlds.

 

One idea, potentially, given that 5ER is a BIG single expenditure would be to break it up into chunks. Sidekick could be chunk one, then you buy Sidekick 2 (at $20) and Sidekick 3 (at $30) and you have the entire rule system, and you've paid more than buying 5ER, but spread it out a bit. Who knows?

 

Oh and whilst my consciousness is streaming, less wine analogies and more beer analogies, if you don't mind.

[BlackSword]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

A very fair point. I know a lot of bookshops and even toyshops (I first discovered DnD in a toyshop, a long time ago) that stock WOD and DnD, but you generally need a specialist retailer for Hero stuff.

Yeah, I remember going to Toys-R-Us so my brother could pick up some D&D stuff. Way, way back in the day. Now though pretty much every bookstore has a section dedicated to RPGs (usually right next to Graphic Novels, convenient). I think just about every major publisher has books there (except DoJ), I have even seen GoO books in those shelves. I understand Hero's reluctance to stock regular bookstores due to the limitations (ie having to buy back returned merchandise). But I have seen a number of people perusing the shelves, and I have made a few purchases from that zone when my local comic and game shop didn't have the TPB or game book in stock.

 

At most non-Bookstores that have an RPG section I can find at least one Hero book.

[Silbeg]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

One idea, potentially, given that 5ER is a BIG single expenditure would be to break it up into chunks. Sidekick could be chunk one, then you buy Sidekick 2 (at $20) and Sidekick 3 (at $30) and you have the entire rule system, and you've paid more than buying 5ER, but spread it out a bit. Who knows?

The only problem with that would the trying to find a specific rule, when you don't know which book it is in. Granted, that their indices could be cumulative (a lot like what ADB did with each edition of Star Fleet Battles), but you would still be searching accross three books (especially annoying if you are looking for power lims and advantages).

[Sean Waters]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

The only problem with that would the trying to find a specific rule' date=' when you don't know which book it is in. Granted, that their indices could be cumulative (a lot like what ADB did with each edition of Star Fleet Battles), but you would still be searching accross three books (especially annoying if you are looking for power lims and advantages).[/quote']

 

Annoying enough to want to buy 5ER as well?

[Sean Waters]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

The only problem with that would the trying to find a specific rule' date=' when you don't know which book it is in. Granted, that their indices could be cumulative (a lot like what ADB did with each edition of Star Fleet Battles), but you would still be searching accross three books (especially annoying if you are looking for power lims and advantages).[/quote']

 

Oh, i don't know; you could publish it in loose leaf format, so the real loonies can have monthly updates, and no one would be working from the same set of rules as anyone else.

 

Good job I'm not in charge, eh?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

Oh' date=' i don't know; you could publish it in loose leaf format, so the real loonies can have monthly updates, and no one would be working from the same set of rules as anyone else.[/quote']

That didn't work so hot for the AD&D 2nd Edition Monstrous Compendium. Or for the Marvel Universe supplement for the Marvel RPG. Or for the DC Heroes...well, you get the idea.

 

 

...and my first exposure to being able to buy D&D was in a Kay-Bee Toy & Hobby. At the time I bought my first D&D (in a pinkish red box) they also had a display set up with some 5.5" x 8.5" supplements like "The World of Greyhawk" -- size to go with the original white box version of D&D. If that gives you any idea how long ago I got hooked on RPGs...

[Silbeg]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

Annoying enough to want to buy 5ER as well?

 

Possibly... though I haven't yet done that, still messing through the less-than-optimally organized 5E... of course, HeroDesigner makes some of the paging unnecessary.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What is being asked of new Hero Players? A constructive criticism thread.

 

I just had a related experience, and I thought I'd share. I was talking to a couple of my regular players last night, and one of them said, "You should run a D&D game." I said, "Well, I probably won't run D&D, but I would like to start a fantasy campaign in Hero once I'm finished with a few more conversions." At that, one of them said without even looking at me, "Well, f*ck that idea."

 

And all of this because I have been talking about Hero for years, and trying to get people interested enough to try something. Yeah! Thay have no idea what they are missing, and I wouldn't even be able to break the ice with a 10 DC, AP Explosion!