Balancing of the Green Lantern

[Red Knight]

As you know, from my previous posts, I have been making a Green Lantern-esque character for a Champions game.

 

I now would like to extend a question to the players and GM's out there that have had experience with Green Lantern-esque characters.

 

Based on an equal point base, are the GL-like characters overly powerful? Do they overshadow the rest of the group?

 

I don't want to intro a character that overshadows the rest of the group and takes away from their fun..

 

I saw the write-up in THE NEW CIRCLE for The Light .... are there any other write-ups that people use and that work??

[Vondy]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

GG: "Hey, Hal?"

HJ: "Yeah Guy?"

GG: "I think my rings a little out of alignment."

HJ: "Just take it into the shop for a tune up."

[HewhoisMatt]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

Look for James Gillen around the boards. He is playing a Green Lantern in our weekly Champions game. He does not seem over powered to me.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

Green Lantern is just a powerful, versatile energy projector. No problem with the character concept. Look at Meteor Man III in Champions Universe; not too powerful.

 

The problem is you are looking at a DC Mega-God. DC Comics main heroes are virtually unmatchable. Why is Green Lantern any worse than Superman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Flash, or others.

 

It's power level thats the question, not power set

[Metaphysician]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

Meteor Man III sucks, but for the opposite reason: he's *WAAAY* too weak for his background and campaign role.

 

Edit: the writeup, that is, not the character.

[Red Knight]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

Thanks for the feedback...

 

I like the versitility of the Lantern and I was playing with a Cosmic VPP and also a MP for his powers.

 

Jury is still out as to how I am going to build him.

 

The VPP would allow for switching points back and forth at will.... but it is complicated and takes up points for the control.

 

The MP allows the use of different powers but locks those powers in at specified levels... until you get XP..

 

AAARRGGGHH... ALl the choices...

[Sketchpad]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

I would go with a MP w/o Ultra Slots ... basically it shows that you're drawing all your powers from the same source and has to be regulated because of this ...

[OddHat]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

As a GM, I don't find cosmic VPPs difficult to deal with, so long as there's a certain level of trust between the GM and players, and so long as the adventure was designed with the presence of that type of character in mind. As to being overpowered compared to the other PCs, as a GM I try to encourage all of my players to put together effective characters they'll enjoy playing. I've found that disruptive players will be disruptive no matter what kind of characters you give them.

 

In the case of The Light, she fits very well into a magic heavy world, with less raw offensive power than most members of the New Circle but with more flexibility. She serves as a plot facilitator; her role is to come up with the power the players need to get to the next stage of the adventure. In some campaigns a character like that won't fit; you'll need to talk it over with your GM.

 

As to the MP vs VPP question, I tend to go with MPs when I play in other folk campaigns, and include VPPs in characters I design for my players. VPPs tend to make GMs who don't know your play style uncomfortable.

[JmOz]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

Not to long ago I posted a GL on 350 points, he would not be to bad in a game...

[Haerandir]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

Recently I made a character with a VPP for a campaign. After I'd played him for a while, I decided to re-write him with a flexible MP, instead. Then, we switched campaigns, I started a new character, and built him with an MP. I'm currently rewriting him with a VPP. The reasons? The fiddly details of power frameworks can have as much of an effect on your character as the more glaring differences. To me, the hidden difference between MP and VPP is that one requires you to think in terms of Active Costs and one in terms of Real Costs.

 

When I was playing Empyrean, I envisioned him as a young Green Lantern type, potentially able to do anything, but just getting started on learning what those things were. I went with the VPP, because it seemed like the best way to model the 'Green Lantern' power set. Then, once play started, I realized that there was little to distinguish me from the other VPP-users (a mage and a gadgeteer) in the group in terms of what I could actually DO, but my concept required me to restrict myself from doing many of the things they could. So, since I was running essentially the same power set as them, but with fewer mechanical limitations and more conceptual limitations, I was paying a heck of a lot of points for less power. By rewriting the character with a Multipower, I was able to get a lot more Active Points (which allowed me to seem more like a young powerhouse bursting at the seams), but with much less flexibility (which better fit the character).

 

With Renaissance Man, I'm running into exactly the opposite problem. He was designed to be run in an 'unlimited points' campaign (he's about 800 points, IIRC), so I stuck his powers in Multipowers rather than VPP's, specifically to avoid the headaches of having to think stuff up on the fly. However, he's supposed to be super-spy character, who's been kicking around since the 14th century and has done a little of everything. Since most of his 'powers' are actually (in SFX terms) skills and gadgets, there's a ton of limitations on each of them, which are often unique to the given power. Unfortunately, since the powers are in MP's, he doesn't get any advantage for having those limitations, since the MP Pool cost of a slot is based on Active Points, rather than Real Points. Which means that he can generally only use one or two of his powers at a time, which really cramps his swashbuckling style. However, if his powers were in a VPP, those limitations would actually allow him to run more powers at once, and switch them more freely, which would make it much more reasonable for me to 'just happen' to have the perfect skill or gadget to solve an unique problem. Which is what the character is supposed to do. As it stands, I simply can't do that in a lot of situations since it would involve shutting off his defenses. Not just unwise, but it doesn't make a lot of sense in some cases. "Why should exerting himself to be particularly persuasive make it harder for him to dodge?" I dunno. The MP makes me do it.

 

So, in addition to considering what the character 'should' be able to do, give some thought to how you want it to work. I'd say that the Hal Jordan and John Stewart Green Lanterns might well be built on Multipowers, since they rarely evidence any real creativity in using their rings. Stewart, in particular, is egregious in his failure to exploit the potential of his ring on Justice League Unlimited. Watch a few episodes of JLU in which he appears as part of a large group of heroes, and simply acts as yet another generic blaster. Count the number of 'dangerous situations' that could be resolved by a simple exercise of telekinesis or a force field. Or, he could sit in the corner zapping things while Batman and Booster Gold get their butts kicked! Kyle Rayner, on the other hand, should probably be built on a VPP. Versatility is supposed to be part of his schtick (the whole 'Power of Imagination' thing.) Not that he always uses it, either.

 

A VPP will generally cost a lot more for the given Active Point value, but will both allow for a wider selection of powers available, and more powers at once. Assuming you put some Limitations on those powers. This means you can often get attacks, defenses and movement powers out of the same pool, without so severely weakening any of them as to make them useless. This is harder to do in a Multipower, which is why you often see people making 'attack' multipowers and buying their defense and movement powers separately. On the other hand, a Multipower, for the same point cost, will give you much more raw effectiveness than a VPP.

 

As for the possibility of VPP flexibility overshadowing other characters, I won't lie to you. It can happen that way. A large, totally flexible VPP can effectively make that character the best possible solution to every problem, and other players can feel like they've been relegated to 'sidekick' status. Worse, it can lead to all characters in a campaign having large, flexible VPP's, which means that it's hard to differentiate one from another.

 

Player A: "I can do anything with my Power Ring!"

 

Player B: "Oh, really? Well, I can do anything with the power of my mind!"

 

Player C: "Oddly enough, I too, can do everything with my alien space god magics..."

 

Player D: "Yeah, I can do anything, too. I guess I've got a tricorder or something."

 

There are things you can do, both as a player and a GM, to deal with this. First, as a GM, you can simply ban VPPs. Draconian, but effective. A less drastic solution is to require each player to take some limitations on their VPP that will limit their power selection or render it ineffective in some situations. You can also ask your VPP-users to submit power writeups for approval in advance, and reject any that are going to step on another player's toes. As a player, you can make a point of designing your VPP character with some limitations, and also sit down with the other players, figure out what they want their characters to be 'best at', and come up with reasons why your character can't or won't do those things. You can also make a point of keeping the Active Point cap on your VPP lower than the other players' biggest powers, which allows them to feel good about being able to do something you can't do. Also (simplest and most effective of all), during play you can make a point of allowing other players to suggest their ideas for how to solve a problem first, and only whip out the "I've got a VPP, I suppose I could do it." plan when everyone else is stumped.

 

So, when all is said, a VPP is a potentially game-unbalancing construct, but if handled with care, it can be a very valuable tool for realizing certain character concepts. Which is, of course, exactly what I would expect from a 'Stop Sign' power.

[assault]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

John Stewart.

 

That reminded me...

 

I've got a reprint of John Stewart's first appearance. It was during the early 70s "relevance" period.

 

Stewart was, of course, a blaxploitation Angry Young Man.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

That reminded me...

 

I've got a reprint of John Stewart's first appearance. It was during the early 70s "relevance" period.

 

Stewart was, of course, a blaxploitation Angry Young Man.

 

 

And now he hosts the Daily Show. Damn, John, stay black!

[Supreme]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

The difference between a Green Lantern character and any other VPP-using character is that he is ALL power pool. A Batman character has a small power pool (maybe) and then some other stuff, but GL is almost all VPP (after a modicum of points for stats and skills). Thus, whatever level a regular VPP character unbalances a game goes up by an order of magnitude for a GL character.

[assault]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

And now he hosts the Daily Show. Damn' date=' John, stay black![/quote']

 

You're lucky. That show has been shown on Australian TV, so I know what you're talking about.

[Red Knight]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

I'd say that the Hal Jordan and John Stewart Green Lanterns might well be built on Multipowers' date=' since they rarely evidence any real creativity in using their rings. Stewart, in particular, is egregious in his failure to exploit the potential of his ring on Justice League Unlimited. Watch a few episodes of JLU in which he appears as part of a large group of heroes, and simply acts as yet another generic blaster. Count the number of 'dangerous situations' that could be resolved by a simple exercise of telekinesis or a force field. Or, he could sit in the corner zapping things while Batman and Booster Gold get their butts kicked! Kyle Rayner, on the other hand, should probably be built on a VPP. Versatility is supposed to be part of his schtick (the whole 'Power of Imagination' thing.) Not that he always uses it, either. [/quote']

 

When I ran a VPP character before, I ended up being nothing more than a blaster character b/c I didn't want to showboat. I wanted the others to be able to do things. it is not as satisfying to sit back and watch one character do everything while you sit back and watch them.

I have been osilating between VPP and MP as well as scraping the character and playing a Power Armored character. Then the idea of Iron Lantern comes into my mind. For those of you who do not know, Iron Lantern was an Amalgam character where Green Lantern and Iron Man were fuzed into one character. Basically, it was a suit of Iron Man armor powered by a mysterious green lantern-like battery. It had a limited charge but allowed him to use Lantern-like abilities while having the protection of the Iron Man suit.

 

Anyway... I have been tempted to say *&^% it and go with the MP and give him the appearance of the Green Lantern from Kingdom Come.

 

 

I have to work on the character background more also. So far I have the power source narrowed down to a couple of sources..

[sbarron]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

When I ran a VPP character before' date=' I ended up being nothing more than a blaster character b/c I didn't want to showboat. I wanted the others to be able to do things. it is not as satisfying to sit back and watch one character do everything while you sit back and watch them.[/quote']This is the same reason why GL never takes full advantage of his powers in any group setting. It wouldn't be fun to watch that cartoon, read that comic, or play the other characters in an RPG. That is the biggest problem with a cosmic VPP.

 

If I were building a GL type character, I would go with a MP for the big powers, and seriously consider a small VPP to cover a lot of the "tricks" that are available to GL through creative use of his ring. Kind of like what Witchcraft did, though I'd probably only have a 15 pt pool.

[NeoSamurai]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

In the recent Green Lantern Rebirth series, they translated the use of Will to power the ring as taxing for those that aren't as stalwart. While I'm still somewhat new to the system, I was thinking of just creating the ring as a "gadget" of sorts with built in capabilities that could grow as the character does so. One of the factors I was considering that it translates willpower (or the equivalent system stat) into END--or maybe just use the equivalent stat that can bleed off endurance if necessary. Additionally, I'm considering including a varied power pool with minor ratings so as to come up with new things on the fly if necessary, but it includes common GL tools (i.e. shielding, flight, energy projection, communication, spirit travel, FTL travel, etc).

 

While it may seem powerful, I was going to include all the other inherent problems with being a GL dependent on the era. Such disadvantages include:

* Obligations to the Guradians and the Corps and all that entails (including representation ala Sinestro and Guy Gardner; constant monitoring without being aware of it)

* Weakness to the color Yellow

* Recharging of the Ring's powers

* Committment to Order

* Cannot use the ring to advance their own ends

* Conflict with the Kwardians

 

When applied right, such problems can limit even the most powerful GL (which it did!). Each of these can also be easily applied to a GL type hero as well.

[Red Knight]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

Neo Samurai....

 

Good ideas... I once tried to figure out how to create a power that could represent an END pool that is durectly related to WILL and not the other stats.

The only thing I thought of was to create a END Reserve that has a limiter of sorts that makes it calculated off of the WILL stat.

 

Anybody out there that can number-crunch this one to represent this???

[NeoSamurai]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

I have to look at the Registered Lethal Weapon (core book) again, but I was thinking maybe translating a combination of the Presence and Ego stats to use as the pool for the ring. I'll have to mess with it.

 

Not wanting to really hijack the thread too much, but have any of you experimented with the mega-attributes (?) for speed or other powers? I'm sure those would actually help with simulating the DC powers a lot easier--I was planning on using Mega-SPD/Running 3 for Wally West Flash.

[crayadder]

Re: Balancing of the Green Lantern

 

I am playing a successor to Kyle Rayner, who died during a super populated world war 3 in my GM's campaign world. He has the second most points out of any character I have played (534). Even so, because of the vast amount of abilitites he can employ, due to the flexibility of his ring, I tend to have a harder time beating villains that I would more easily vanquish with my lower point, specific powered heros.

 

I think with the removal of boundaries in what a charcater can do comes a greater difficulty in the ability to use said character that somewhat alleviates a higher point total in powers. Obviously, this has less meaning the greater the point gap between characters.

 

It also depends on how long your GM allows you to develop powers when a situation arises. If your GM gives you 1 minute real world time, having the versatility can be a huge drawback compared to a character with a stable powerset. One way I combat this is to create a number of basic effects/powers that I use on a regular basis. This reduces the number of times I have to come up with something on the fly. For instance, my Green Lantern has a standard EB of 12d with the special effect of a green fist forming and striking my target.

 

I think, given the skill of the player and his/her knowledge of the rules will play a large part in how you balance a green lantern styled character as it is ultimately their imagination that will make the character worth its points or not. You could make a green lantern with less points than the rest of your pcs and have a really good rper make him outshine any of them!

 

for what it's worth