Creation philosophy

[OddHat]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Sure it does.

 

Everyone just uses that to dismiss everything that is brought up here.

 

It's been mentioned in this post many times...

 

Opinions don't matter.

 

The discussion itself is a thought exercise; working through the hows and why of combat and character creation can be useful in heling a GM form his own opinion. From that point of view, there's a point. Still, no point in arguing.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Sure it does.

 

Everyone just uses that to dismiss everything that is brought up here.

 

It's been mentioned in this post many times...

 

Opinions don't matter.

Now you're getting peevish.

 

Your opinions, or Ki-Rin's, or OddHat's, don't matter in my campaign. But they'd be important if any of you were the GM of a campaign I play in. In our campaign, I have to respect the opinions of Blackjack and Mentor; not of another player hundreds of miles away who is looking at my character in a vaccuum and not in the context of her own campaign.

[Mentor]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

So what you are saying is that this thread serves no purpose.

He is saying that clever character design and clever GM campaign design and running is complementary. He gave several good examples of the types of standard Champion campaign abilities that counterbalance the "overwhelmigly powerful" constructs of Z'lf and Lariat.

 

One poster's claim that these PCs are campaign breakers and Captain America could not possibly beat either of them was apparantly insufficiently convincing to most of the board members. Certainly not to me.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

*in Oliver Twist accent*

"Pretty, pretty, please mum? What is a NORMAL thread? and where can I find one?"

 

(or did you mean "normal" as in "perpendicular to Reality"?...)

Normal as in, "What this site was built for, as opposed to the BS in NGD."

 

A rather large percentage of my posts are from the NGD. So it's FUN BS over there, but BS nonetheless.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I just looked more closely at that Combat Ratings page, and noted that her Regeneration raises her Combat Rating by 40 points despite the fact it takes an hour to work and hence would have ZERO effect on any combat. Even Missile Deflection only added 8 points.

 

Without the BS 40 points extra for Regen, I calculate her Combat Rating by the page as 122.2; a far cry from the campaign bustin' 165 points cited earlier in this thread.

 

As I said previously, these programs are basically worthless.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I'd like to see a 350 pt character from Ki'rin that is useful in combat and not "game unbalancing". I think all characters in one regard or another are.

 

Shardik and The Greek are two good examples of that.

 

I'll do better than that. I'll give you guidelines that I know work for an +infinite+ number of characters, and at the same time allows you to taylor things to the style of your campaign.

 

Read pS22 "Playing The Numbers" in 4ed.

 

Then add to it the concept that combat balanced characters do close to the same amount of Expected Damage per Turn. Then add to that the idea that combat balanced characters have close to the same Expected Character Survivability.

 

This results in two 3D graphs based on SPD + Skill + (AP in Attack - campaign Average defense), both of which are modified by movement ability. Any character within the 3D "blob" defined by the extremes of allowable SPD + Skill + (AP in Attack - campaign average defense) + movement modifiers is a "fair" character. Any outside are "unfair". Any on an edge may need further testing.

 

When in doubt, additionally use a combat simulator to run experiments.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Read pS22 "Playing The Numbers" in 4ed.

Is there an alternative source, for those of us not fortunate enough to stumble across Hero until after Fifth had come out?

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I just looked more closely at that Combat Ratings page' date=' and noted that her Regeneration raises her Combat Rating by [b']40[/b] points despite the fact it takes an hour to work and hence would have ZERO effect on any combat. Even Missile Deflection only added 8 points.

 

Without the BS 40 points extra for Regen, I calculate her Combat Rating by the page as 122.2; a far cry from the campaign bustin' 165 points cited earlier in this thread.

 

As I said previously, these programs are basically worthless.

Where do you calculate the Combat Rating from Trebuchet?

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I just looked more closely at that Combat Ratings page' date=' and noted that her Regeneration raises her Combat Rating by [b']40[/b] points despite the fact it takes an hour to work and hence would have ZERO effect on any combat. Even Missile Deflection only added 8 points.

 

Without the BS 40 points extra for Regen, I calculate her Combat Rating by the page as 122.2; a far cry from the campaign bustin' 165 points cited earlier in this thread.

 

As I said previously, these programs are basically worthless.

 

40 pts? It only raised it 2.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Where do you calculate the Combat Rating from Trebuchet?

 

here:

 

http://www.trimira.com/hero_stuff/combat_rating.html#

 

It's been a LONG time since I used this. It's been changed quite a bit from the last time I used this.

 

I think I even inputted Z'lf stats wrong. Especially after it was explained to me that the hth attack listed on the character sheet was not supposed to be usable with her martial arts.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

That's a nice sight.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Ok. Did another spin with that CR html script someone wrote along time ago.

 

Here is the numbers and here is what I used to obtain them.

 

OR=46 + DR=31 + MR=41. Big mistake I did was on regen.

 

Total = 118. Like most programs, garbage in garbage out.

 

I used 16ocv, 16dcv, 10dc, attacks 4 (hth, ma, nnd, eb), 9spd, 10", 4 movement powers (significant leap, run, tp, swim), 12/8 pd/ed, 29 stun, 45 in missile reflect and it should only be 1 bod for the regen.

 

Now treb, are those numbers now reflective of what your character can do?

 

And don't dismiss this chart so easily. Like hero, it takes awhile to figure out how to input the data correctly. I have found this a most USEFUL tool in comparing relative combat efficiencies of character from what was put down on paper.

 

You just have to do it right.

 

Which means my brick would definitely eat your lunch.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

40 pts? It only raised it 2.

Oops! YOu're right; my bad. I had incorrectly assumed that, like most of the other Power numbers, it was based on the total Active Points of the Regeneration, not on the BODY regenerated per time interval.

 

Silly me for assuming the program would be consistent.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Bring new arguments and points to the discussion and it will cease being pointless. The entire point of this thread was how difficult it is to evaluate characters in combat based simply on points. If nothing else' date=' new players and GMs can learn this is more art than science.[/quote']

 

The debate over Z'lf's effectiveness would seem to highlight the difficulty of this evalation. To Ki-Rin, she's grossly overpowered for EVERY champions game he's ever seen. To others, she's a perfectly valid character. No one's called her a wimp yet, but I've seen games where DEF 30-35 is the norm, which would make her prety ineffectual, at least as a straight up combatant.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Oops! YOu're right; my bad. I had incorrectly assumed that, like most of the other Power numbers, it was based on the total Active Points of the Regeneration, not on the BODY regenerated per time interval.

 

Silly me for assuming the program would be consistent.

 

Don't worry.

 

I DID THE EXACT SAME THING.

 

Like I said. Work with the program. Run multiple characters thru it. See how the numbers come out BEFORE you so off-handedly dismiss it.

 

Unfortunately, I don't remember who actually created it.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

The debate over Z'lf's effectiveness would seem to highlight the difficulty of this evalation. To Ki-Rin' date=' she's grossly overpowered for EVERY champions game he's ever seen. To others, she's a perfectly valid character. No one's called her a wimp yet, but I've seen games where DEF 30-35 is the norm, which would make her prety ineffectual, at least as a straight up combatant.[/quote']

 

Exactly! Which is why I usually run characters thru this page at creation. I am just very, very rusty in using it.

 

Practice makes perfect.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Null kind of reminds me of the problem discussed here. Null has a 16d6 Electromagnetic Pulse attack. Three charges and a not so decent OCV makes this very ineffective to pull off. But if the right circumstances come up, this attack can pack a huge punch.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Ok. Did another spin with that CR html script someone wrote along time ago.

 

Here is the numbers and here is what I used to obtain them.

 

OR=46 + DR=31 + MR=41. Big mistake I did was on regen.

 

Total = 118. Like most programs, garbage in garbage out.

 

I used 16ocv, 16dcv, 10dc, attacks 4 (hth, ma, nnd, eb), 9spd, 10", 4 movement powers (significant leap, run, tp, swim), 12/8 pd/ed, 29 stun, 45 in missile reflect and it should only be 1 bod for the regen.

 

Now treb, are those numbers now reflective of what your character can do?

 

Which means my brick would definitely eat your lunch.

I would have used 17 OCV/15 DCV to reflect the Sacrifice Strike bonuses and penalties (+1/-2) and 3 movement Powers (TP is essentially meaningless since it's slower than her Running Half Move), but we're quibbling over trivia at this point. And as my buddy Blackjack observed, we're not just about combat. Any evaluation of a character's overall usefulness and effectiveness in any campaign has to take in factors like non-combat Skills.

 

As to your last question, I guess I'd have to ask "Reflective of what?" I've admitted she's a good combatant; but she's certainly not unbalanced in our campaign. I don't doubt your brick could beat her. Heck, I thought that MA you posted early in this thread (Black Lotus?) would give her a darn good fight (SPD 7, 38 DEX IIRC) and he was loaded with non-combat Skills. I guess since your brick could beat Zl'f, he must be unbalanced too, at least according to some.

[Force]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I would have used 17 OCV/15 DCV to reflect the Sacrifice Strike bonuses and penalties (+1/-2) and 3 movement Powers (TP is essentially meaningless since it's slower than her Running Half Move), but we're quibbling over trivia at this point. And as my buddy Blackjack observed, we're not just about combat. Any evaluation of a character's overall usefulness and effectiveness in any campaign has to take in factors like non-combat Skills.

 

As to your last question, I guess I'd have to ask "Reflective of what?" I've admitted she's a good combatant; but she's certainly not unbalanced in our campaign. I don't doubt your brick could beat her. Heck, I thought that MA you posted early in this thread (Black Lotus?) would give her a darn good fight (SPD 7, 38 DEX IIRC) and he was loaded with non-combat Skills. I guess since your brick could beat Zl'f, he must be unbalanced too, at least according to some.

 

I thought the only thing unbalancing was the 43dex/9spd/30" movement. However that was only a glance at her character sheet.

 

Turns out she might have 30" of movment, but she can't do much else with her mp.

 

This 'guide' that I use (and others) is only to compare the effectiveness of the character in combat as wrote up on the sheet. I don't know what formula's are actually used and I wish I could remember who wrote it.

 

I know that my brick could beat you (even tho I have not listed his character sheet in this thread), he is a total combat monster. I certainly wouldn't argue that.

 

I don't know how my ma would handle Z'lf. She is so damn fast! But it would be a good fight according to the calculator, as I believe it would and should be. I think Z'lf would have the edge due to a 9spd, but dice can be kinda tricky.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

Like I said. Work with the program. Run multiple characters thru it. See how the numbers come out BEFORE you so off-handedly dismiss it.

 

Unfortunately, I don't remember who actually created it.

My problem isn't with this program in particular (although this one has significant flaws in its own right. IIRC it's based on an article on combat ratings from the old Adventurer's Club magazine from 15+ years back.), it's with all such programs. They might have some limited value to evaluate character within a specific campaign, but as a general "My character vs. your character even though we don't play in the same campaign" they're worse than useless. Context is everything.

 

Ki-Rin thinks Zl'f would be overwhelming, but I think it's fairly obvious his campaign uses markedly lower defenses and CV's than do most of the groups on these boards. That doesn't mean he's wrong; only that it's unrealistic to expect everyone else to conform to his campaign's averages. It can happen even within the same campaign universe. In my recently begun Dark Champions game (played in the same game world as MidGuard) any one of MidGuard's members could whip all three of our 250 point DC characters together. There's just that much difference in power levels and defenses.

[Gary]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

I thought the only thing unbalancing was the 43dex/9spd/30" movement. However that was only a glance at her character sheet.

 

Turns out she might have 30" of movment, but she can't do much else with her mp.

 

This 'guide' that I use (and others) is only to compare the effectiveness of the character in combat as wrote up on the sheet. I don't know what formula's are actually used and I wish I could remember who wrote it.

 

I know that my brick could beat you (even tho I have not listed his character sheet in this thread), he is a total combat monster. I certainly wouldn't argue that.

 

I don't know how my ma would handle Z'lf. She is so damn fast! But it would be a good fight according to the calculator, as I believe it would and should be. I think Z'lf would have the edge due to a 9spd, but dice can be kinda tricky.

 

 

Black Lotus is a beast in HTH, but his Achilles heel is a very slow speed. In a straight up fight against Lariat in a steel cage, he'd probably win due to 13 base CV +6 levels. However in a real fight, Lariat can guarantee at least a draw since she has 36" movement and can run away anytime she's low on Stun or End (there's no chance she'll be one punched). Lariat's best strategy would be to stay at a distance and throw large objects such as cars and vans. Black Lotus only has 16 Def, so it won't take many hits to put him out. A very tough matchup.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

The debate over Z'lf's effectiveness would seem to highlight the difficulty of this evalation. To Ki-Rin' date=' she's grossly overpowered for EVERY champions game he's ever seen. To others, she's a perfectly valid character. No one's called her a wimp yet, but I've seen games where DEF 30-35 is the norm, which would make her prety ineffectual, at least as a straight up combatant.[/quote']I'd dispute her being called a wimp in any normal Champions campaign, but there's no denying the fact that against 30+ PD opponents her probability of success in one one one combat drops sharply. Of course, she's part of a team, and in team combat you measure success against other teams, not against individuals. And within the context of a team she holds her own just fine. (Ask Scorpia or Mentalla if they think Zl'f is a wimp, since she put them both down in our epic battle against Eurostar in 2003. Admittedly, Mentalla was already a bit banged up from fighting Thunderbird and Prodigy when Zl'f administered 44 points of damage from a great 10d6 roll to finish the job.)

[Warp9]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

It isn’t all happy-clappy though – look at the sample Ninja Hero character Yeung Li: what were they thinking? A 150 point character with 10 and 12 DC attacks? That really is daft: you should expect to meet opponents with a similar level of abilities to you, and any fight between two Yeung-Lis is going to be determined by who gets the first punch in: with 8PD, 18 CON and 29 STUN a punch or a kick will certainly stun an opponent of equal ability and quite possibly KO them outright. This doesn’t reflect any genre I’m aware of and, try as I might I can not see the thinking behind this particular character design.

I would say that, if the person designing the character understood what they were doing (it fit with their concept), then 10 or 12 DCs is fine.

 

In fact, if it was in keeping with the concept of the character's abilities, then designing it anyother way would be wrong.

 

Not everything has to fit within set DC limits. A soldier carrying a rocket launcher comes to my mind as a different example of a fairly low point character with a very high DC attack.

 

Active point limits (and/or DC limits) are great for some games, but they are not relevant to all games (IMO).

[Ki-rin]

Re: Creation philosophy

 

 

Originally Posted by Ki-rin

Read pS22 "Playing The Numbers" in _Champions_ 4ed.

Is there an alternative source, for those of us not fortunate enough to stumble across Hero until after Fifth had come out?

Can anyone help Alice and me out here?

 

Is the blurb "Playing The Numbers" on pS22 of _Champions_ 4ed in any in-print source that anyone knows of?

[Agent X]

Aaargh, I can't believe I'm posting this.

 

I couldn't take it. I was told about this thread. Ki-Rin has exposed my achille's heal in my resolve not to post on the boards. It drives me nuts when somebody argues from the premise that their campaign should be the baseline that all things are measured by.

 

Let's all remember that the point where someone's physical stats are superhuman, as far as the Champions Genre book or the CU are concerned, is when they hit 31. Ki-Rin's assumptions about what Cap must be built on are galling to me, not that he doesn't respect the published guidelines and their implications for the Cap build, but that he attempts to make everyone analyze builds from HIS baseline instead of from the PUBLISHED baseline. As for the Hulk, perhaps Ki-Rin doesn't realize that DOJ actually participated in designing the Hulk for Game Trade Magazine. I've seen the stats and Ki-Rin's assumption that Z'lf can easily take the Hulk are hard to take as a result (especially if you're like me and think DOJ's Hulk is a little wimpier than he ought to be).

 

So here are some of my comments. (I ease my conscience for posting on this board again by reminding myself that I've already mucho dinero on Hero Products even if I hadn't bought any recently.)

 

Someone has claimed that Zl'f can take out the Hulk. Fortunately for all, someone from DOJ actually wrote up the Hulk for Game Trade Magazine a couple of years ago.

 

Let's compare, shall we. J

 

Zl'f's attacks vs. the Hulk's defenses: 35(25)PD, 30(25)ED, 50% Damage Reduction for both. Hulkie's defenses are hardened.

 

Thrown Object: 6d6 armor piercing will hit almost every time. Average damage of 6 body and 21 stun with hardened defenses countering the armor piercing for NO Stun or Body. Zl'f's maximum of 36 stun, 12 body would do ONE stun and no Body.

 

Superspeed Strikes

7d6 atttacks with a +1/2 advantage. On average, nothing. None of the advantages that I think Trebuchet can use for the character will help in the least. Maximum Damage Roll would do 3 stun and no body. Okay, so autofire could theoretically do 15 points of stun which Z'lf could do with a 16 OCV vs. Hulk's 6 DCV

 

Precision Strike

5d6 NND? I'm not sure. I'm thinking the +1/2 value of the NND means the sfx for rigid armor is extremely broad. Perhaps the Hulk's mightily tough form qualifies. If not, Z'lf can do an average of 8.75 stun to Hulkie with a hit.

 

Catching and Returning Bullets

Means nothing to the kind of objects the Hulk tends to throw. J

 

Sacrifice Strike

On average. Does NO stun. Well within the likely range though, it would do 1 to 4 stun about half the time.

 

Martial Strike

On average. No stun. Probably not worth trying to get lucky with a roll.

 

Legsweep

Won't do anything but knock Hulk down.

 

Hulk's attacks vs. Z'lf's defenses

Punch will hit on a 6 or less. Not great odds but 4 or 5 swipes and he'll hit once.

42 stun and 14 body. That will knock Z'lf down to -1 stun and daze her to boot. And Z'lf will lose 2 body on average.

 

Shockwave 10d6 Explosive

Z'lf's overconfident but not stupid. If she's fighting Hulkie she's probably staying about 8 to 15 hexes away depending on favorable or unfavorable circumstances. That means she's not likely to get tagged by this. However, if she does close in to hit the Hulk with her attacks, none of which can do much of anything to 80 Stun 40 Con Hulk, she will be available for such an attack and would be dazed by the attack.

 

However, I'm thinking with her speed, she's going to try to dance in and dance out, trying to pick the appropriate time to jump in and out. (Trebuchet will try to pick phases that let him go in and tag the Hulk and get out before the Hulk swings.) The problem is that Z'lf's incredible mobility of 30" leaping is matched by Hulkie's incredible mobility of 34" leaping. Not only that but if she is dancing with the Hulk on all of this there is a very good chance the Hulk is fully enraged by the time he gets a bead on Z'lf. At that point, the Hulk is up to a 130 strength. He will, on average, knock Z'lf to -50 stun AND Z'lf will on average lose 14 Body dropping Z'lf down to -2 Body… which is a bad thing.

 

Of course, this assumes there isn't a nice car or big boulder for the Hulk to pick up while Z'lf is dancing around which allows the frustrated green giant to ignore much of Z'lf's DCV and just hammer her with a "free" affects a hex (or 2) attack.

 

Z'lf is NO match for the Incredible Hulk. She is, however, built really well to lead him on a merry chase.

 

And on the Captain America thing…

If we're going to use the Champions Universe as our benchmark for characteristic guidelines and, since Cap is described as having maximum potential human strength, resilience, and agility in the comics, the OHOTMU (which I generally detest), and the MSHRPG - Cap would have a 30 STR, 30 DEX, 30 CON, and a 30 BOD. Oh yeah, he's gonna have a 7 speed too. Cap's OCV and DCV would be Base 10, not this 8 or 9 business (if you accept the Champions Universe standards - which I will accept as a baseline over one person's observations of a handful of campaigns he's run or played in). If he's got the kind of martial arts he's described as having with a couple of skill levels in hand to hand and a couple of skill levels with the shield and an overall combat skill level and an overall skill level - he IS going to hit Z'lf. His PD and ED are going to have a base 15 PD and 15 ED (max human) and he's going to have some protection from his chain mesh AND he's going to have some combat luck AND he's got the FREAKING shield!!! (Not to mention, I'd personally give him the ol' glancing blow/grazing strike damage shield - edit: should read damage reduction not damage shield - with a skill roll limitation.)

 

On damage, I would have to assume he gets some dice from the shield. It's THE Shield so I'd give it dice equal to a nice club or mace. +4d6 HtH. Cap's got every martial art maneuver he'd want to have so let's give him Offensive Strike… another +4d6. Oh yeah, he's not just a well-rounded martial artist, he's one of the world's best. Let's give him another 2 damage classes. Looks like he's hitting Z'lf for 16 dice. (Yeah, Champions is weird when Cap can throw more damage than the Hulk at baseline. It's just one of those things. Personally, I think Darren Watts should have placed Hulk's baseline strength at 90 anyway.)

 

Yeah, the cumulative effect of a designing Cap to incorporate all the little things that make him Cap add up in Champions. So?

 

Bottom line, Z'lf is no match for Captain America OR for the Hulk. Heck, she's going to have a tough time with some published characters. Anybody doubt me? Spend 53 Experience Points in upgrading Morningstar so that he's at the same point level as Z'lf and do a run-through. Raise his defenses to 30 in PD and ED. Raise his speed by one. Raise his Variable Advantage morningstar to +1 advantage or give him skill levels and some movement. He could definitely give her something to worry about. It would be a good tussle.

 

Z'lf superior or equal to Cap? No

Z'lf superior or equal to Hulk? No

Z'lf superior or equal to Morningstar at 403 points? At least equal, maybe superior depending on what Morningstar's upgrade is like.