Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

[CourtFool]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

Shoting the guys with her eyes closed could have been a special effect of a Snap Shot.

[Shike019]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

FOr those who have seen the movie, I would suggest adding one of the martial arts packages because she does some serious martial arts, not just basic techniques, as well as quite a bit of weapons fighting. Also, she was described as being trained as a "Weapon".

[gewing]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

Many of her "powers" could be "super-skills" but there are two scenes that lead me to think she's a telepath -- the bit where she states the one village elder killed the old village elder, and when she comments on Jubal Early's personality and history. As for assassin training... it's possible. The Hands Of Blue guys are certainly Alliance black ops and as "Ariel" shows, can and will kill anyone who might know anything about River. At the very least the Alliance was experimenting on her purely to examine how her brain works. At worst, they were trying to turn her (and others?) into weapons for the state. "I can kill you with my mind" might be more than just exaggeration...

 

Oh, and yes, her Clairsentience might just be Precognitive. I wondered if her knife attack on Jayne was because she had a flash of what he was going to do later....

 

 

retrocognition might work for some of the things, the little girl, Jubal, the village elder...

[AlHazred]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

And despite being a #1 buy on Amazon for an amazingly long time, Serenity apparently did not do well enough to spawn sequels. May Orca the Killer Whale relieve himself on the toothbrushes of damned Hollywood executives!

 

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

I recently saw the movie and a few episodes. I very much enjoyed all of it. I'm very surprised it hasn't made a comeback with the success of the movie. Anyhow, this thread is like a year old. I saw a lot of post ressurrection in the DI forums recently. Same guy?

 

Ressurrect Post: Healing BODY 10d6, Resurrection (120 Active Points); Only forum threads (-2)

[James Gillen]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

And despite being a #1 buy on Amazon for an amazingly long time, Serenity apparently did not do well enough to spawn sequels. May Orca the Killer Whale relieve himself on the toothbrushes of damned Hollywood executives!

 

 

This I wouldn't blame on Hollywood. The movie got quite a lot of promotion and everybody who's seen it (including me) really liked it, but not enough people outside the fanboy community saw it.

 

JG

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

My friends and I weren't in the fanboy community.

 

But yeah, it didn't do that well in the box office IIRC. Still, was it a high budget show to run? The most famous actor was Adam Baldwin and I don't even remember what else I've seen him in. So certainly the actors aren't demanding overwhelming salaries to do the show. Are the special effects too costly then?

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

My friends and I weren't in the fanboy community.

 

But yeah, it didn't do that well in the box office IIRC. Still, was it a high budget show to run? The most famous actor was Adam Baldwin and I don't even remember what else I've seen him in. So certainly the actors aren't demanding overwhelming salaries to do the show. Are the special effects too costly then?

He was in Full Metal Jacket. That's his only really major film credit. Jewel Staite had something of a childhood star career, and Ron Glass has 51 entries on IMDB.

 

But I'd imagine that wouldn't make any of them particularly expensive.

 

In fact, I seem to remember hearing something about the movie budget being really, really cheap.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

He was in Full Metal Jacket. That's his only really major film credit. Jewel Staite had something of a childhood star career, and Ron Glass has 51 entries on IMDB.

 

But I'd imagine that wouldn't make any of them particularly expensive.

 

In fact, I seem to remember hearing something about the movie budget being really, really cheap.

He also was the Air Force officer at Area 51 in Independance Day.

 

TB

[Badger]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

And one of Crazyman Busey's henchman in Predator 2 looked a whole lot like him.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

He was in Full Metal Jacket. That's his only really major film credit.

Bah! Can you not remember My Bodyguard? A great film of my youth!

 

Okay, yeah, it was kinda cheesy, but Adam Baldwin made an impression on me even then.

 

EDIT: Forgot to add that, sequel or not, I'm happy they made Serenity. Anything that might come after is just bonus, but that story needed to be told.

[James Gillen]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

Bah! Can you not remember My Bodyguard? A great film of my youth!

 

Okay, yeah, it was kinda cheesy, but Adam Baldwin made an impression on me even then.

 

That's the first place I remember him from.

 

JG

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

Is Full Metal Jacket the one with the drill sergant that the guy murders then sits on the toilet and shoots himself? That was a pretty gory scene.

[Susano]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

Is Full Metal Jacket the one with the drill sergant that the guy murders then sits on the toilet and shoots himself? That was a pretty gory scene.

 

Yes.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

Is Full Metal Jacket the one with the drill sergant that the guy murders then sits on the toilet and shoots himself? That was a pretty gory scene.

Yes. But after that scene, you get a second, bonus movie.

 

Keith "The only film with a built-in sequel" Curtis

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

Yes. But after that scene, you get a second, bonus movie.

 

Keith "The only film with a built-in sequel" Curtis

Yeah, that describes Full Metal Jacket to a Tee.

 

As far as Serenity, I myself remain mystified as to why it didn't do better. The only things I can think of are:

1. Being a "sequel" to a show most people had never heard of hurt it (ie - "I never saw the show, so why should I see the movie?")
   
2. It was too "talky" for a big space action movie (this particularly hurts overseas numbers, I'm told), and had too much action to be a dramatic movie.
   
3. People found the whole Western In Space thing just too hokey.
   
4. Popular as Buffy was (albeit on a small network), those people who weren't already Joss Whedon fans found "From the guy who did Buffy" to be a turn off.
   

 

But sadly I have to admit that James has a point. The movie either made enough money or it didn't. It is, after all, called show business.

[Jaxom]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

People found the whole Western In Space thing just too hokey.

 

I always find comments like that amusing... Truth is that Starwars was a western in space (well, ok a space opera based on a western that was based on a samurai film). That's not to say that the comment is wrong, just that people who say that and then say they loved Starwars haven't really looked at what they are watching.

 

 

Regarding the build of River, you might find it interesting to look at the Serenity RPG writeup and then extrapolate that to HERO for a conversion. Not sure if someone has done that elsewhere or not.

[Shike019]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

I recently saw the movie and a few episodes. I very much enjoyed all of it. I'm very surprised it hasn't made a comeback with the success of the movie. Anyhow, this thread is like a year old. I saw a lot of post ressurrection in the DI forums recently. Same guy?

 

Ressurrect Post: Healing BODY 10d6, Resurrection (120 Active Points); Only forum threads (-2)

 

 

Actually, I was not a fan of the series (never watched due to lack of cable television or time) I just saw the movie, loved it, and wanted to know if the character had been discussed instead of starting a new forum, I actually searched to find it. I found that the thread hadn't beed discussed since the movie was released and found that I actually had some imput into the possible build of the character.

 

As for the ressurection post, I do not believe that I have actually posted on that thread.

[Savinien]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

I always find comments like that amusing... Truth is that Starwars was a western in space (well' date=' ok a space opera based on a western that was based on a samurai film). That's not to say that the comment is wrong, just that people who say that and then say they loved Starwars haven't really looked at what they are watching.[/quote']

 

From the people I've heard use this excuse, it isn't the tropes of the movie they're referring to. It is the language, mannerisms, and costumes. needless to say, I've heard this crap before and couldn't believe it.

 

Long live Firefly!

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

I always find comments like that amusing... Truth is that Starwars was a western in space (well' date=' ok a space opera based on a western that was based on a samurai film). That's not to say that the comment is wrong, just that people who say that and then say they loved Starwars haven't really looked at what they are watching.[/quote']

Well certainly from a plot standpoint, much TV and film sci-fi are really westerns in space. But that's not the same thing as having a spaceship crew riding horses, firing six-shooters, and talking in Wild West-ish. While it didn't bother me (and that aspect was less overt in the movie, partly because they had a real budget) I can see where some people might have found it a little off-putting.

 

[Edit: Savinien types faster than I do!]

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

Back to the topic of the thread.

 

I didn't like her character (from the movie at least, which is all I've seen). She just came off as another Hollywood GRRL Power Icon, that kicked *** to make boyz look weak.

 

I saw her character in half a dozen movies already (Elektra, 5th Element, etc...)

 

Boring.

 

Wouldn't it be novel for the person trully competent in fighting wasn't a waifish girl that looked like a stiff breeze could knock her over and let it be someone credible, like I don't know: Jane for example.

 

It's cliche and needs to be burried.

 

TB

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

I didn't like her character (from the movie at least, which is all I've seen). She just came off as another Hollywood GRRL Power Icon, that kicked *** to make boyz look weak.

It's cliche and needs to be burried.

Fair point. Psychic enhancements or not, the idea that someone River's size & build can punch a Reaver in the face and actually hurt him, let alone knock him down, does call for a certain amount of suspension of disbelief. At least Gina Torres (Zoe) has some muscles on her.

 

OTOH from a dramatic standpoint I'll still take that cliche over its predecessor, the Weak Woman Who Needs A Man To Protect Her.

[Jaxom]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

OTOH from a dramatic standpoint I'll still take that cliche over its predecessor' date=' the Weak Woman Who Needs A Man To Protect Her.[/quote']

 

Ah yes, the joys of having a good writer like Joss... Over the one season of TV we have we literally seen the evolution of River from one stereotype to the other (at least if you watch the in the order they were intended, not what FOX showed). The movie was kinda the culmination of the transformation, in fact.

 

All the same, the numbers for her in the Serenity RPG focus on her mental abilities although her physical attributes are not bad either.

 

Re: the small Grrl kicks butt stereotype, it should be pointed out that the main point behind martial arts is making it possible for the small grrl to do just that. Of course we tend to use a different style of choreography here so it seems a bit out of place but I don't see a whole lot of people complaining that Ziyi Zhang should be unable to kick butt in any of a host of Asian films.

 

As for the stereotype being overdone, I would say that is the forte of Hollywood so no disagreement there.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

Ah yes, the joys of having a good writer like Joss... Over the one season of TV we have we literally seen the evolution of River from one stereotype to the other (at least if you watch the in the order they were intended, not what FOX showed). The movie was kinda the culmination of the transformation, in fact.

 

All the same, the numbers for her in the Serenity RPG focus on her mental abilities although her physical attributes are not bad either.

 

Re: the small Grrl kicks butt stereotype, it should be pointed out that the main point behind martial arts is making it possible for the small grrl to do just that. Of course we tend to use a different style of choreography here so it seems a bit out of place but I don't see a whole lot of people complaining that Ziyi Zhang should be unable to kick butt in any of a host of Asian films.

 

As for the stereotype being overdone, I would say that is the forte of Hollywood so no disagreement there.

I find any depiction of a woman of such slight build and almost non-existent upper body musculature defeating well trained athletic men, to be equally non-plausible. Regardless of genre.

 

Woman defeating a Man in a melee battle with swords or weapons, somewhat believable. Woman defeating a Man in hand to hand without weapons, both being of comparable training, woman being of a build as depicted in almost all film: beyond what can be considered credible.

 

Men have on average 40% more upper body muscle than woman. Ziyi Zhang would go down like a sack of potatoes going up against Norris or Seagal, no matter how much Wire-Fu or plucking string music they play in the background for her.

 

TB

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Some thoughts on River Tam (Firefly)

 

the main point behind martial arts is making it possible for the small grrl to do just that.

Yes, but TB still has a good point that there's only so hard a 90-pound person of any gender can hit. In game terms (since that's who we are, after all), it doesn't matter how high your OCV is if you're only hitting for 1d6N. I've had my bell rung in the ring/dojo by a few women - but they weren't built like Summer Glau.

 

Woman defeating a Man in a melee battle with swords or weapons' date=' somewhat believable. Woman defeating a Man in hand to hand without weapons, both being of comparable training, woman being of a build as depicted in almost all film: beyond what can be considered credible.[/quote']

I think the key phrase here is "both being of comparable training." The assertion usually made in such shows is that the woman has training far superior to the man she's fighting. Ziyi Zhang against Chuck Norris? Not a chance. But Ziyi Zhang (or rather her character) against Big Dumb Guy With No Training Because He's Always Relied On His Size? That's plausible enough to get past my disbelief field, assuming it's handled well. But she'd better be landing five punches for every one he plants.

 

[Edit: And she'd better be hitting him somewhere more sensitive than his jaw!]

 

I guess the size factor is just something I always handwave away under "That's Just Hollywood." In reality, if Ziyi Zhang's character had spent that much time training in the martial arts, she wouldn't look anything like the actress that plays her. It's the same filter that allows me to believe Ally Hannigan and Nick Brendan's characters on Buffy are ugly little nerds.