How long to make Master Mold?

[Guyon]

Here is the biggest discussion in our group. The team wants one person to build a Master Mold compuuter and set of robots, so they will help them build a home base for them.

The PC has slightly above average INT with some mechanics skills. They think they can can construct and program a functioning robot that will help build other robots, weapons, and other items for their base. The do have some money, and bought toys from a local Wall Mart to make the basic robot.

 

The problem is that they think that in 2 weeks they can get the first robot helper built, programmed, and helping with other items. I told them that it would take a year to build the main computer, 6 helper robots, and link the master computer into a home made security system. I thought i was being overly fair.

 

So what do you think? How long to create, build and program this ultimate computer/ robot project?

[Lamrok]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

Here is the biggest discussion in our group. The team wants one person to build a Master Mold compuuter and set of robots, so they will help them build a home base for them.

The PC has slightly above average INT with some mechanics skills. They think they can can construct and program a functioning robot that will help build other robots, weapons, and other items for their base. The do have some money, and bought toys from a local Wall Mart to make the basic robot.

 

The problem is that they think that in 2 weeks they can get the first robot helper built, programmed, and helping with other items. I told them that it would take a year to build the main computer, 6 helper robots, and link the master computer into a home made security system. I thought i was being overly fair.

 

So what do you think? How long to create, build and program this ultimate computer/ robot project?

 

 

Let them roll for it. A really good roll should cut the time a lot. Suggest to them that they might be able to bring in outside experts to help with this task (making complementary rolls). Of course they'll have to do something for the expert to get him on board. Tell them that if the capture a robot from X, they might be able to reverse-engineer it and get a nice bonus on the roll. Make it a fun challenge.

[MitchellS]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

I'd just set the roll at -10 for one month and then give them one less on the roll for each week thereafter. So they work for 1 month and can take a -10, or at 5 weeks they take a -9, etc. I wouldn't want to make this impossible for the players to do, so unless your game has a lot of time passing between adventures I'd just let them run with it myself. Ideas can go stale if you wait for them too long.

[Vondy]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

They bought the components at Walmart?!

 

The project they are talking about would take a major corporation several years, a full design team, and a significant R&D budget to accomplish.

 

So you have to ask yourself: just how realistic do you want to be?

 

From a playability perspective "a few months is ideal," from a realism perspective, with the right resources and skill sets, 3-5 years is realistic.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

Here is the biggest discussion in our group. The team wants one person to build a Master Mold compuuter and set of robots, so they will help them build a home base for them.

The PC has slightly above average INT with some mechanics skills. They think they can can construct and program a functioning robot that will help build other robots, weapons, and other items for their base. The do have some money, and bought toys from a local Wall Mart to make the basic robot.

 

The problem is that they think that in 2 weeks they can get the first robot helper built, programmed, and helping with other items. I told them that it would take a year to build the main computer, 6 helper robots, and link the master computer into a home made security system. I thought i was being overly fair.

 

So what do you think? How long to create, build and program this ultimate computer/ robot project?

 

Really this is a general roleplaying question and not a Rules Discussion but so what I'm bored.

 

First, like a previous poster said: How Realistic Do You Want To Be?

 

A slightly above average INT character with some mechanical skill should not be able to create more than a souped up car let alone Skynet and a few dozen loyal robots. The PC simply lacks the skills required.

 

OTOH, a nonrealistic game would simply say that if the PCs can pony up the points they can have what ever they want.

 

Which game are you trying to run?

 

Hawksmoor

[McCoy]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

A working Von Newman machine.

 

From off-the-shelf components.

 

Purchased at Wal-Mart.

 

They would finish faster building the base by themselves.

 

They would finish faster growing the trees to cut for lumber to build the base by themselves.

 

In the absence of a massive gadget pool, or a cyberpath, I would require them to capture and reverse-engineer a working robot.

[Guyon]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

My biggest problem with this player strategy is bypassing the rules to get quick results. Letting a few rolls take the place of using character points to build the base seems far too easy. To me this seems to far fetched, even for comics to try to get this done in a mere 3 weeks (for 1 person).

 

I have actually given them a basic base and he is trying to get fast results by construction of robots doing all the work with junk yard material. I think the mere programming would take a huge amount of time.

 

I want a fun game, so my point here is to temper the vast contradiction between the players and my ruling of how long I think it would take in comic book time.

 

Thank you for any input.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

Letting a few rolls take the place of using character points to build the base seems far too easy.

 

That makes the answer simple. No points, no base.

 

I'd be inclined to let the player continue, with (say) a few days to construct the Master Mold. It then proceeds to build more robots and the base, exactly as planned.

 

The players then find their newly constructed base, fully staffed with robots, won't let them in. Not to worry, however, as the Robot Army is coming out. After all, you can't very well conquer (exterminate?) the human race staying inside this base all day!

 

Whether the player got (un)lucky, or this is an alien race using ready components, and an egotistical human, by mindbeaming robot construction instructions, I leave to you.

 

Comic book precedents: Ultron, Computo, HERBIE (hey, if Hank Pym, Reed Richards and Brainac 5 could screw this up, your "a bit above average" intellect practically guarantees it!) - lots more if you want to go looking.

[Ndreare]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

This is good stuff.

 

The players with no relevent skills and an moderate int wants to buy things at Walmart and build things that master technitions would spend 20 years working on with billion dolor budgets.

 

My advice takes place in two steps.

 

1: Reach up and slap the player in question. (this part is a joke he may cry)

 

2: Make them BOTH pay the points and have a game appropriat reason for the powers.

[McCoy]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

This is good stuff.

 

The players with no relevent skills and an moderate int wants to buy things at Walmart and build things that master technitions would spend 20 years working on with billion dolor budgets.

And fail. Have I missed something? Has there in RL ever been a human built Von Newman machine?

[Ternaugh]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

And fail. Have I missed something? Has there in RL ever been a human built Von Newman machine?

 

No one has built one, though technically standard computers are as subclass that can be shown to be functionally equivalent to part of a Von Neumann machine. See, it's really hard to find the infinitely long tape to hold the symbols. Remember, too, that a Von Neumann machine can calculate just about anything, but isn't necessarily optimized to do these calculations in a specific interval of time. So, it could take a few milliseconds to draw up the plans, or a billion years. With proper optimization of the symbols on the tapes, it is theoretically possible to reduce this time to a fixed minimum, but the optimization itself may not be possible in a reasonable amount of time.

 

I like the idea of buying the parts at Wal-Mart, though. It would be fun to see them argue that the lead weights on the fishing line are actually the data marks on a VN tape, and that the reversible power drill makes the perfect transfer mechanism, while the photoelectric nightlight is a great reader of the information. Of course, it would get a bit fiddly, when they explain how the decoder mechanism can be built out of the YMCA Elmo, but that's the fun of roleplaying it out.

 

Your Players May Vary,

JoeG

[Dust Raven]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

Here is the biggest discussion in our group. The team wants one person to build a Master Mold compuuter and set of robots, so they will help them build a home base for them.

The PC has slightly above average INT with some mechanics skills. They think they can can construct and program a functioning robot that will help build other robots, weapons, and other items for their base. The do have some money, and bought toys from a local Wall Mart to make the basic robot.

 

The problem is that they think that in 2 weeks they can get the first robot helper built, programmed, and helping with other items. I told them that it would take a year to build the main computer, 6 helper robots, and link the master computer into a home made security system. I thought i was being overly fair.

 

So what do you think? How long to create, build and program this ultimate computer/ robot project?

 

Myself, I'd have let it go in however many days they felt like working on it. The more time they spend, the better the results are. In the back of my mind I'd come up with some "appropriate" time when spending any longer just makes it take longer and no longer improves performance, but I usually don't sweat it.

 

I think you were fine saying it's take a year or more, and perfectly fair. As others have said, using state of the art technology, specifically crafted for this purpose, it would take an army of technicials and engineers a decade or more to invent, build, test and rebuild such a device. Give it to a handful of weekend mechanics with a basked full of discount-store surplus in as little as a year if more than generous.

 

Of course, in the realm of fiction, a kid builds a nuclear bomb in a few days, three children build a spaceship in an afternoon, the lowly peasant masters seven styles of forbidden martial arts in a weekend and many other examples of ordinary people doing extraordinary things in impossibly short times are found everywhere. A few weeks seems a little slow in comparison. Besides, there are people who pretty much do the same thing for robot-wars type games (though they aren't building robots that build other robots, just robots that do normal robot things).

[McCoy]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

See' date=' it's really hard to find the infinitely long tape to hold the symbols. Remember, too, that a Von Neumann machine can calculate just about anything, but isn't necessarily optimized to do these calculations in a specific interval of time. So, it could take a few milliseconds to draw up the plans, or a billion years. With proper optimization of the symbols on the tapes, it is theoretically possible to reduce this time to a fixed minimum, but the optimization itself may not be possible in a reasonable amount of time.[/quote']

Isn't that a Turing machine?

 

By Von Newman machine I ment a machine that can build a copy of itself from raw materials. Is that the term?

[Lamrok]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

My biggest problem with this player strategy is bypassing the rules to get quick results. Letting a few rolls take the place of using character points to build the base seems far too easy. To me this seems to far fetched' date=' even for comics to try to get this done in a mere 3 weeks (for 1 person).[/quote']

 

My assumption was that points had been paid, and you were working out the details of how the base came into being. (Stuff like that happens in out games all the time. In Zornwil's game, building the base took a lot of planning and a good bit of game time.)

 

If points haven't been pai for the base, then you're looking at paying points for the building method - Probably some sort of transform (transform with some manner of gradual effect, from your description) to make the shell, then paying full points for the stuff inside.

[Lamrok]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

Here is the biggest discussion in our group. The team wants one person to build a Master Mold compuuter and set of robots, so they will help them build a home base for them.

The PC has slightly above average INT with some mechanics skills. They think they can can construct and program a functioning robot that will help build other robots, weapons, and other items for their base. The do have some money, and bought toys from a local Wall Mart to make the basic robot.

 

The problem is that they think that in 2 weeks they can get the first robot helper built, programmed, and helping with other items. I told them that it would take a year to build the main computer, 6 helper robots, and link the master computer into a home made security system. I thought i was being overly fair.

 

So what do you think? How long to create, build and program this ultimate computer/ robot project?

 

 

Another approach is to wave your hand and let them go at it. Have it take a bit more time than they thought. Then describe their end result - a bunch of mismatched tin hammered into a maze of 2x4's guarded by remote-control toys duct-taped to hunting weapons bought from Walmart. Redneck Heaven!

[dbsousa]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

And fail. Have I missed something? Has there in RL ever been a human built Von Newman machine?

 

Just last week in fact...(link )

 

This is a fairly limited version, and not likely to build a base any time soon...

[McCoy]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

Just last week in fact...(link )

 

This is a fairly limited version, and not likely to build a base any time soon...

Kwel! State of the art is further along than I thought! Still a long way from assembling a robot from supplied modules to building one that can build a base from [strikeout]junk yard[/strikeout] previously owned material.

 

(Yet the thought of a man being able to fly effortlessly by thinking pure thoughts bothers me not at all.)

[Ternaugh]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

Isn't that a Turing machine?

 

By Von Newman machine I ment a machine that can build a copy of itself from raw materials. Is that the term?

 

Oops! My error!

JoeG

[prestidigitator]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

Isn't that a Turing machine?

 

By Von Newman machine I ment a machine that can build a copy of itself from raw materials. Is that the term?

The trick isn't getting the thing to build a copy of itself. The trick is getting it to do both that and something useful, for what good would be a robot who's sole function is to build another robot?

 

I read an article in Discover a few years ago about a project that was underway to create nanites that could both reproduce and perform other specialized functions that would contribute toward projects such as terraforming and solar power generation. I haven't heard anything about it since, though, so maybe it was a flop.

[McCoy]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

The trick isn't getting the thing to build a copy of itself. The trick is getting it to do both that and something useful' date=' for what good would be a robot who's [i']sole[/i] function is to build another robot?

What good is a robot who's sole function is to locate raw materials, mine them, refine them, fabricate components, and assemble those components in the correct sequence? Once it masters that, it would be easy enough to instruct them to build other things, such as a base.

 

I read an article in Discover a few years ago about a project that was underway to create nanites that could both reproduce and perform other specialized functions that would contribute toward projects such as terraforming and solar power generation. I haven't heard anything about it since' date=' though, so maybe it was a flop.[/quote']

Still ongoing. Still trying to fabricate nanotech replicators. Once we have the tools to build the tools, you'll see a nanotech revolution that will outshadow the electronics revolution.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

Bah, you guys are making this wayyy too hard!

 

Bondo, duct-tape, and baling wire. That's what they'll find (once they get past string theory and all that hoooey) is the true stuff holding the universe together.

 

You can buy the essential material which is the source of universal cohesion at Wal Mart, I don't see why you can't build your cyber-revolution! (At an appropriate point cost)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

It's at this point we discover that Wal-Mart (the store) is in fact a large, somewhat klunky Von Newman machine that incorporates humanity as part of its matrix and has been steadily reproducing itself for years. Once a certain "critical mass" is reached (x% of the planet transformed into Wal-Marts) all existing Wal-Mart stores will uproot themselves and stride across the landscape like the Martial war machines, laying waste to all in their path.

[McCoy]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

It's at this point we discover that Wal-Mart (the store) is in fact a large' date=' somewhat klunky Von Newman machine that incorporates humanity as part of its matrix and has been steadily reproducing itself for years. Once a certain "critical mass" is reached (x% of the planet transformed into Wal-Marts) all existing Wal-Mart stores will uproot themselves and stride across the landscape like the Martial war machines, laying waste to all in their path.[/quote']

What do you mean "once?" Thought that happened years ago.

[McCoy]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

You can buy the essential material which is the source of universal cohesion at Wal Mart' date=' I don't see why you can't build your cyber-revolution! (At an appropriate point cost)[/quote']

I think "At an appropriate point cost" is the key phrase. Somehow I get the impression Guyon's players are looking for a way around the point cost.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How long to make Master Mold?

 

It's at this point we discover that Wal-Mart (the store) is in fact a large' date=' somewhat klunky Von Newman machine that incorporates humanity as part of its matrix and has been steadily reproducing itself for years. Once a certain "critical mass" is reached (x% of the planet transformed into Wal-Marts) all existing Wal-Mart stores will uproot themselves and stride across the landscape like the Martial war machines, laying waste to all in their path.[/quote']

How very South Park of you.