Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

[Gaelinic]

Can someone explain the difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision in terms of their game effects? They both cost the same points and seem to provide similar effects. However, for the same point cost, it seems that Nightvision is a better ability since it allows you to see in dark buildings, sewers, and caves. Ultraviolet Perception would seem to indicate that you need some source of UV light to still see.

 

I'm just wondering why you would purchase one over the other. Thanks.

[Barton]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

UV needs a source. In Vietnam rotting vegetation was the source of the UV for early night vision goggles. So in a completely dark room a character with UV perception would not see anything at all.

[Dino]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

UV vision needs a source of UV light. Night Vision only works in natural darkness rather than the power Darkness (it only offsets vision penalties to PER roll and therefore does not work in situations were you would not get a PER roll).

[Ternaugh]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

Can someone explain the difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision in terms of their game effects? They both cost the same points and seem to provide similar effects. However, for the same point cost, it seems that Nightvision is a better ability since it allows you to see in dark buildings, sewers, and caves. Ultraviolet Perception would seem to indicate that you need some source of UV light to still see.

 

I'm just wondering why you would purchase one over the other. Thanks.

 

Because UV goggles may not be appropriate in a Fantasy Hero campaign.

 

By Nightvision, I am assuming that we are talking about a light-intensifier. There has to be some light( there's some, even in "total" darkness), it's just heightened so that the image looks like "daylight". Of course, that means that a bright light source will become blindingly bright. So, you could temporarily disorient a character using Nightvision, if you exposed him to a bright light. UV vision wouldn't necessarily be affected in this way, but you need a source of UV light to see.

 

Of course, YMMV,

JoeG

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

UV vision needs a source of UV light. Night Vision only works in natural darkness rather than the power Darkness (it only offsets vision penalties to PER roll and therefore does not work in situations were you would not get a PER roll).

 

 

Ding Ding Ding!!!

 

We have a winner!!!

 

Each has it's benefits and Drawbacks and thus costs out to be about the same. IMO *all*enhanced senses are overpriced for utility (don't get me started about wierd builds like Rapid Sight :rollseyes:), but regardless the powers work exactly as described by Deejmeister.

 

Hawksmooor

[Dust Raven]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

The difference is subtle.

 

Nightvision: Need not be thought of as it's own sense, but just a modifier that eliminates the penalties for darkness with normal vision. It can allow for color vision in any lighting condition, including total darkness. Some GMs may choose to limit the color vision by the amount of actual visible light available however (total darkness would be black and white, while twilight would still be relatively full color).

 

Ultraviolet Perception: Is a specific sense. When attached to the Sight Group, it allows one to see into the UV part of the spectrum (normally invisible to normal humans). Other than being able to see in the dark (with available UV light), you can see a number of marvelous things that are only visible in UV. Flowers and many insects have different pattern in UV, some clothing looks different (like under a blacklight, which is really just intense UV light) and in a superhero/high tech world, there are invisible things that can only be seen in UV, alarms using UV beams of light for sensors, covert communications using beams of UV light, etc. Also, if you are affected by a Sense Affecting Power that only affects your Normal Sight, you still have your UV Sight.

[Susano]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

UV vision needs a source of UV light. Night Vision only works in natural darkness rather than the power Darkness (it only offsets vision penalties to PER roll and therefore does not work in situations were you would not get a PER roll).

 

I'll need to remember this. Thanks for the clarification.

[David Blue]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

I use infrared for things like pit-viper heat-sense, nightsight for equivalents to the big eyes of nocturnal animals, and ultraviolet vision for underwater heroes.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

I've always had a problem with the way Nightvision is built. IIRC, it is simply +4 Vision, Only to offset penalties from darkness (the natural condition, not the Power Darkness).

 

If this is all it takes, then someone with plain old +4 really good vision sees in the dark as well as a person with base vision sees in the day.

 

Is it really only -4 for darkness? Does that mean with stars and moon or with no light at all like in a cave underground or in a closed dark room? If I spend the 5 points (CMIIW) for Nightvision, can I get up in the middle of the night and confidently walk to the bathroom and use the toilet without missing or tripping or stubbing my toe? Even if it isn't in a house I'm familiar with or if the furniture has been rearranged? Can I pick up a glass of milk off a table in a dark room without spilling it? Can I read a book in a dark room? I think it's a stretch to say that a mere +4 gives the equivalent of daylight vision in the total absense of light.

 

It seems to me that the ability to see in total darkness needs some other construct besides a bonus versus a penalty to a PER roll. What is needed is a way to say the caharacter gets a PER roll even when he normally wouldn't. (OT: The same thing applies to N-Ray Perception as well.)

 

(I don't necessarily worry about it that much, because the cost is probably pretty close to what it should be.)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

I've always had a problem with the way Nightvision is built. IIRC, it is simply +4 Vision, Only to offset penalties from darkness (the natural condition, not the Power Darkness).

 

If this is all it takes, then someone with plain old +4 really good vision sees in the dark as well as a person with base vision sees in the day.

 

Is it really only -4 for darkness? Does that mean with stars and moon or with no light at all like in a cave underground or in a closed dark room? If I spend the 5 points (CMIIW) for Nightvision, can I get up in the middle of the night and confidently walk to the bathroom and use the toilet without missing or tripping or stubbing my toe? Even if it isn't in a house I'm familiar with or if the furniture has been rearranged? Can I pick up a glass of milk off a table in a dark room without spilling it? Can I read a book in a dark room? I think it's a stretch to say that a mere +4 gives the equivalent of daylight vision in the total absense of light.

 

It seems to me that the ability to see in total darkness needs some other construct besides a bonus versus a penalty to a PER roll. What is needed is a way to say the caharacter gets a PER roll even when he normally wouldn't. (OT: The same thing applies to N-Ray Perception as well.)

 

(I don't necessarily worry about it that much, because the cost is probably pretty close to what it should be.)

I've always thought of a character with Nightvision as seeing as well in starlight (not moonlight) as a normal character during the day. With that in mind, a +4 to offset darkness penalties is probably reasonable (especially given the guideline that this is roughly, "16 times," better sight than normal).

 

However, it also means a character can't see in a dark cave unless there is some weak form of light around by which the character could normally see if it were strong (phosphorescent moss, distant torchlight, indirect filtered sunlight, etc.).

 

EDIT: Incidentally, in some games I make Nightvision apply to the whole Sight Group, rather than just Normal Sight. This seems more in line with the cost, and means a character with, for example, IR Vision might be able to see just fine in an underground cave where there is some weak geothermal heat but normally very little temperature differential.

[Gaelinic]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

I've always thought of a character with Nightvision as seeing as well in starlight (not moonlight) as a normal character during the day. With that in mind, a +4 to offset darkness penalties is probably reasonable (especially given the guideline that this is roughly, "16 times," better sight than normal).

 

However, it also means a character can't see in a dark cave unless there is some weak form of light around by which the character could normally see if it were strong (phosphorescent moss, distant torchlight, indirect filtered sunlight, etc.).

 

EDIT: Incidentally, in some games I make Nightvision apply to the whole Sight Group, rather than just Normal Sight. This seems more in line with the cost, and means a character with, for example, IR Vision might be able to see just fine in an underground cave where there is some weak geothermal heat but normally very little temperature differential.

 

According to the FAQ, Nightvision works in total natural darkness including caves.

 

I just don't see why someone would buy Ultravision since the absence of any light is already offset by Nightvision. But I thank you all for your contributions.

[SirViss]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

The only reason I would see that a character would buy UV Perception instead of Nightvision is character concept, or the GM saying that he doesn't allow it, or some such reason.

[Foxx!]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

The difference is subtle.

 

Nightvision: Need not be thought of as it's own sense, but just a modifier that eliminates the penalties for darkness with normal vision. It can allow for color vision in any lighting condition, including total darkness. Some GMs may choose to limit the color vision by the amount of actual visible light available however (total darkness would be black and white, while twilight would still be relatively full color).

 

Ultraviolet Perception: Is a specific sense. When attached to the Sight Group, it allows one to see into the UV part of the spectrum (normally invisible to normal humans). Other than being able to see in the dark (with available UV light), you can see a number of marvelous things that are only visible in UV. Flowers and many insects have different pattern in UV, some clothing looks different (like under a blacklight, which is really just intense UV light) and in a superhero/high tech world, there are invisible things that can only be seen in UV, alarms using UV beams of light for sensors, covert communications using beams of UV light, etc. Also, if you are affected by a Sense Affecting Power that only affects your Normal Sight, you still have your UV Sight.

 

Thank you. Very clear and easy to understand.

 

Cheers!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

According to the FAQ, Nightvision works in total natural darkness including caves.

 

I just don't see why someone would buy Ultravision since the absence of any light is already offset by Nightvision. But I thank you all for your contributions.

I know. I was simply describing the way I play Nightvision. Once again an area in which I think the FAQ should be ripped up, wadded, and used as toilet paper.

 

BTW, there is no reason Nightvision and UV Vision have to give you similar perceptions. There may be things that are near to invisible in the UV spectrum. There may be normally transparent substances (such as glass) that are opaque or very close to it for UV light. As people have mentioned, sources of UV light may be limited. In summary, there are easy ways for the GM to balance these senses if (s)he does want to utilize both in the campaign.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

I've always had a problem with the way Nightvision is built. IIRC, it is simply +4 Vision, Only to offset penalties from darkness (the natural condition, not the Power Darkness).

 

If this is all it takes, then someone with plain old +4 really good vision sees in the dark as well as a person with base vision sees in the day.

 

Is it really only -4 for darkness? Does that mean with stars and moon or with no light at all like in a cave underground or in a closed dark room? If I spend the 5 points (CMIIW) for Nightvision, can I get up in the middle of the night and confidently walk to the bathroom and use the toilet without missing or tripping or stubbing my toe? Even if it isn't in a house I'm familiar with or if the furniture has been rearranged? Can I pick up a glass of milk off a table in a dark room without spilling it? Can I read a book in a dark room? I think it's a stretch to say that a mere +4 gives the equivalent of daylight vision in the total absense of light.

 

It seems to me that the ability to see in total darkness needs some other construct besides a bonus versus a penalty to a PER roll. What is needed is a way to say the caharacter gets a PER roll even when he normally wouldn't. (OT: The same thing applies to N-Ray Perception as well.)

 

(I don't necessarily worry about it that much, because the cost is probably pretty close to what it should be.)

 

Of course, a person that buys +4 to his Sight PER roll also sees that much better in daylight, while Captain Nightvision doesn't, but CN can see in total darkness while Supervision-Man can't. I figure it balances out.

 

P.S.: I'm not too sure about reading a book in total darkness. I suppose that technically, by the strict rules, you can, but I've never plaid it that way. Printed text uses shading and color to function, something that doesn't exist in total darkness. The character can still see objects, but everything is in grey shades representng texture and outlines for shapes.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

The only reason I would see that a character would buy UV Perception instead of Nightvision is character concept' date=' or the GM saying that he doesn't allow it, or some such reason.[/quote']

 

Not just concept, but there are some things that UV can do that Nightsight can't. Detecting UV light is the most generally obvious. Do a web search for Ultraviolet Light and see how it's used and where it can be found. Having UV is more useful that you might think.

 

Of course, if all you want to do is see in the dark, Nightvision is obviously better.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

Of course' date=' a person that buys +4 to his Sight PER roll also sees that much better in daylight, while Captain Nightvision doesn't, but CN can see in total darkness while Supervision-Man can't. I figure it balances out.[/quote']

Actually he can. Supervision-Man has a 15- PER roll in daylight, and at night he's at -4, leaving him with an 11- PER roll. Captain Nightvision has only the normal 11- PER in daylight, and the dark of night doesn't hinder him in any way, so he's still at 11-. SVM and CN both have the same PER roll in darkness. I'm not saying that it makes sense, but that's what the rules say.

 

P.S.: I'm not too sure about reading a book in total darkness. I suppose that technically, by the strict rules, you can, but I've never plaid it that way.

I wouldn't play it that way either, but the rules seem to indicate that the only game effect of total darkness is a -4 to visual perception. This means that a normal 11- vision guy can see in total darkness on a 7-. Generally, he'd probably have to make a new PER roll every phase, or at each step in the process of whatever he's doing that requires sight. If he is walking to the bathroom for example, a GM might make him roll for each turn in the hallway and each major piece of furniture that he needs to avoid bumping into. IIRC, the odds of a 7- are about 20%, which means he can, by the game rules, on average, do anything he could do in light if he takes five times as long to do it. And you are right if you think this makes no sense realistically.

 

Printed text uses shading and color to function, something that doesn't exist in total darkness. The character can still see objects, but everything is in grey shades representng texture and outlines for shapes.

Seeing objects also uses shading and color to function. You don't need to see color to be able to read. All you need is high contrast in brightness between the text and the page, such as black on white - no colors need be involved. Bright red on bright green is difficult to read even in full daylight, and could be impossible for someone who is colorblind. The ease of seeing outlines of objects depends on the contrast of the background (just like for text). This is how camoflage (sp?) works. It's hard to see a low-contrast item even in daylight, such as a contact lens or puzzle piece on a patterned carpet.

 

The problem is, IMO, that:

1. Total darkness should impose something more than just a -4 penalty. Perhaps it should be simply a bigger penalty, or perhaps it should be something in addition to a roll penalty. And

2. Darkvision should therefore be based on countering whatever the real effect of darkness is, not a mere -4 penalty.

[pinecone]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

I've always treated "total darkness" as meaning "you cannot see", no differant than being flashed....I use the -4 for "its Real dark" but not for Totally dark....I guess its a style thing.....

[Dust Raven]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

Actually he can. Supervision-Man has a 15- PER roll in daylight' date=' and at night he's at -4, leaving him with an 11- PER roll. Captain Nightvision has only the normal 11- PER in daylight, and the dark of night doesn't hinder him in any way, so he's still at 11-. SVM and CN both have the same PER roll in darkness. I'm not saying that it makes sense, but that's what the rules say.[/quote']

Just what I was saying, but in daylight supervisonman has better vision.

 

 

I wouldn't play it that way either, but the rules seem to indicate that the only game effect of total darkness is a -4 to visual perception. This means that a normal 11- vision guy can see in total darkness on a 7-. Generally, he'd probably have to make a new PER roll every phase, or at each step in the process of whatever he's doing that requires sight. If he is walking to the bathroom for example, a GM might make him roll for each turn in the hallway and each major piece of furniture that he needs to avoid bumping into. IIRC, the odds of a 7- are about 20%, which means he can, by the game rules, on average, do anything he could do in light if he takes five times as long to do it. And you are right if you think this makes no sense realistically.

I've ruled that the -4 for "total darkness" actually refers to what I've always called pitch black. Not lightless, but effectively lightless. So little light that there is no longer such a thing as contrast between objects. Total Darkness is total darkness, and anyone relying on light to see is blind. A character with Nightvision can see normally in the -4 pitch black "total darkness" as if he had normal lighting conditions (there there are still no contrast modifiers), and can see in real total darkness, but cannot distinguish color and there is no such thing as contrast; objects are nothing more than outlines distinguishable from their surroundings through whatever SFX defines the Nightvision.

 

 

Seeing objects also uses shading and color to function. You don't need to see color to be able to read. All you need is high contrast in brightness between the text and the page, such as black on white - no colors need be involved. Bright red on bright green is difficult to read even in full daylight, and could be impossible for someone who is colorblind. The ease of seeing outlines of objects depends on the contrast of the background (just like for text). This is how camoflage (sp?) works. It's hard to see a low-contrast item even in daylight, such as a contact lens or puzzle piece on a patterned carpet.

I suppose what I was getting at was contrast and forgot the word. Contrast is still a function of light though, and without light, there is no such thing as contrast (see my above comments).

 

The problem is, IMO, that:

1. Total darkness should impose something more than just a -4 penalty. Perhaps it should be simply a bigger penalty, or perhaps it should be something in addition to a roll penalty. And

2. Darkvision should therefore be based on countering whatever the real effect of darkness is, not a mere -4 penalty.

 

Agreed. I've always done the -4 thing for really really dark, nearly lightless environments, like an overcast moonless night in the wilderness. It's not total darkness, but for most of humanity, it might as well be. Actual total darkness has no light and normal vision is useless.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

What would you do for active nightvision? (Where the character's eyes project some sort of radiation that is detectable by the persons eyes when reflected off objects. I'm using the old AD&D 2nd Ed. 60+' infravision for this concept.)

 

How would this be represented, just a SFX that permits nullification of the -4 PER penalty even in truly lightless environments? Or is there something else that is needed?

 

Would there be a cost difference for Passive Nightvision and Active Nightvision? (would the detectability aspect of active vision cancel out the penalty of passive vision not being able to see in total darkness)

 

TB

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

Just what I was saying' date=' but in [i']daylight[/i] supervisonman has better vision.

No, that's not what you said. I'll quote you again: "CN can see in total darkness while Supervision-Man can't." This is the problem: If nightvision is bought as +4 vision, with the limitation only vs darkness penalties, then someone who buys straight +4 vision has the same PER roll in the limited circumstance. In the example, both guys have 11- sight PER in darkness. The same thing as would happen if Ocean Man buys +4 Vision, Only underwater. He and Supervision-Man, have exactly the same vision under water. OM and CN's vision bonuses apply only in a limited circumstance, which SVM's applies all the time.

 

There is nothing in the rules (that I've seen) that says that a normal vision guy can't make a PER roll at -4 in total darkness. And if you rule that normal vision is outright impossible, i.e., no roll allowed at all, there is nothing in the construct of nightvision that allows for an exception. It's just a bonus to sight with a circumstance limitation.

 

My claim is that total darkness (or even almost total darkness) goes beyond simply -X to sight PER. And along with that, darkvision needs to be built as something beyond simply a +X to sight PER, with the "Only vs. darkness" limitation.

 

A character with Nightvision can see normally in the -4 pitch black "total darkness" as if he had normal lighting conditions...

What about a character who has +4 Sight Perception, *without* the nightvision *limitation*? According to the rules, he should be able to see just as well in darkness, "total darkness," "pitch black," etc., as someone with Nightvision. Taking a limitation should not grant an advantage.

 

I suppose what I was getting at was contrast and forgot the word. Contrast is still a function of light though, and without light, there is no such thing as contrast (see my above comments).

I may have not understood what you meant by this point. Contrast is required to distinguish the outlines of objects, too, not just their colors. Contrast in not just to allow you to distinguish the red stripe from the white stripe on a flag, it also allows you to distinguish the edge of the flag itself from the background.

 

Agreed. I've always done the -4 thing for really really dark, nearly lightless environments, like an overcast moonless night in the wilderness. It's not total darkness, but for most of humanity, it might as well be. Actual total darkness has no light and normal vision is useless.

So Nightvision would be useless as well. That's fine. So what power would you use to allow someone to see in actual total darkness?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

Hmm. Technically there is no such thing as total darkness, for a small number of photons can actually tunnel through anything except an infinite potential difference (which cannot exist in reality, though large potential barriers may be modeled with an infinite potential difference). However, I think there will be a lot fewer than 2^-4 = 1/16 the photons (which is the condition under which I would impose a -4 penalty) in a completely sealed bunker, for instance.

 

If you want to be able to see in complete darkness, I would say you have to buy an active sense as part of the Sight Group, not a passive one. I believe all listed standard Sight Group senses are passive (though maybe you could define UV Vision or IR Vision as active?). Also, Spatial Awareness works in total darkness, and I think maybe you could just include it in the Sight Group. I don't know.

[Gaelinic]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

What would you do for active nightvision? (Where the character's eyes project some sort of radiation that is detectable by the persons eyes when reflected off objects. I'm using the old AD&D 2nd Ed. 60+' infravision for this concept.)

 

How would this be represented, just a SFX that permits nullification of the -4 PER penalty even in truly lightless environments? Or is there something else that is needed?

 

Would there be a cost difference for Passive Nightvision and Active Nightvision? (would the detectability aspect of active vision cancel out the penalty of passive vision not being able to see in total darkness)

 

TB

 

It would be a visible effect for a zero endurance costing power. So you'd take a limitation, visible.

[schir1964]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

It would be a visible effect for a zero endurance costing power. So you'd take a limitation' date=' visible.[/quote']

Actually, per the rules, Passive vs Active senses is a 0 Limitation/Advantage.

 

So being visible isn't worth any points, but that's per the rules.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Difference between Ultraviolet Perception and Nightvision?

 

It would be a visible effect for a zero endurance costing power. So you'd take a limitation' date=' visible.[/quote']In AD&D the active illumination was only visible to creatures that had infravision (active or passive), would this effect the right up? I think it would halve the limitation, IMO.

 

TB