Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

[paigeoliver]

My players have expressed interest in doing a Star Wars game after our fantasy campaign ends.

 

This of course brought on the sense of wrongness that I have felt about every Star Wars RPG and adaptation.

 

The main thing that is WRONG is the lightsabers. They keep presenting them as weapons that do damage.

 

Having just watched all six movies I can certainly say that lightsabers do not "do damage".

 

Lightsabers have one of 3 possible effects against a human sized foe.

 

Death.

Limb removal (which comes without any actual damage, since the limbs are removed cleanly and bloodless every time).

Miss.

 

Every RPG version of Star Wars I have seen has instead said "lightsabers do xd6 damage". That goes against every single use of a lightsaber in the movies.

 

For Non-Hero use I am simply inclined to create an effects table for hits. That basically contains a lot of deaths, and various limb removals, with maybe a single entry that actually does damage for that one in a 100 swing that only penetrates a half inch.

 

For hero I am seeing Multipower. With two powers, Major transform (missing limb), and major transform cumulative (dead). The cumulative on the "dead" power serves two purposes, it decreases the number of dice when selecting "dead" (thus making it easier to hack off limbs than to kill, and hacking off limbs seems to be common when fighting major foes), and it allows the lightsaber to still fight BIG creatures, those large enough to actually survive a single hit to the body.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

Hmm... how do you want to handle them burning through solid inanimate matter, like the armored doors in Phantom Menace?

[Egyptoid]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

that hits it right on the head. ZACKLY.

 

what will you do about Lightsabers versus the Physical world.

 

- - - - cutting doors, snapping wires, popping hand-cuffs.

 

and sabers have missile deflec / reflec, yah yah.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

Well you can always add another 2 powers to the multipower.

 

A minor transform (structure, to structure with hole), cumulative.

 

A major transform. Object to broken object.

 

I don't THINK I am missing anything else?

 

And before anyone mentions missile deflection, that power belongs to the Jedi, not to the lightsaber. Anyone can theoretically pick up a lightsaber and use it, but only Jedi can deflect blaster bolts with it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

Well, all right. I suppose that could work. You would of course have to House Rule that Transform can be used to kill a target - strictly speaking "Transform: Living To Dead" is forbidden by the default rules.

 

Then again, at the climax of Ep I Quigon wasn't immediately killed by Darth Maul's running him through. He held on long enough to exhort Obiwan to train Anakin.

 

I dunno... I've always felt that Hit Locations and the Imparing/Disabling rules would handle these varying outcomes well enough for a "damaging" light saber, without having to build variable abilities into it. But of course, you should use what works for you.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

You might want to reconsider the no damage ruling. It definitely does damage. Luke doesn't have any fight left in him after losing his hand. As stated above, Qui-Gon is "not dead yet", Vader obviously takes a recovery after Luke returns the favor, the guy in the cantina in Ep IV doesn't do much after losing his arm.

 

I would consider using the Gradual effects rule. Make it a Major Transform: Living, Whole Person to Dead, Lightsaber-hacked Person. As you get progressively closer to the total needed to kill someone, then they start to show limited effects of the transform. I.E. they lose limbs and/or a percentage of Body and Stun. This is the part that would be well-served by a table.

You could even extend the transformation to cover inanimate objects by making it: Functional, Whole Object to Non-functional, Lightsaber-hacked Object

Then you only need one power.

 

Keith "Not as clumsy or random as a blaster" Curtis

[CDad]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

I would definitely include all the detailed combat rules (hit location, impairment, bleeding, etc.) in a Star Wars campaign.

 

You could also build the Lightsaber with Piercing as well. Here's a modification of the Star Hero "Energy Blade" that uses Piercing. Just ignore the first 10 defense, including armor.

 

Lightsaber

1) Blade: HKA 2d6 (10 Resistant Piercing), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 11 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Real Weapon (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) 0 END

2) Block: HKA 2d6 (10 Resistant Piercing), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Damage Shield (+1/2), Continuous (+1); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 11 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Only If Attack Is Blocked (-1/2), Not Against Other Lightsaber blades (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) 0 END

[Eosin]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

Lightsabers have one of 3 possible effects against a human sized foe.

 

Death.

Limb removal (which comes without any actual damage, since the limbs are removed cleanly and bloodless every time).

Miss.

 

Stuff like that makes for great simulation but poor gaming. Sooner or later all of your PCs end up shedded or dead - usually within the first few games.

 

Some people like the wounding, maiming effects of chart-master (since that is the closest to what we are talking about) but huge numbers of people stayed away from the game because the did not want to have the DM say something like this "Holy cow! Look at that roll! Your Jedi Master just had his eye sockets blown right out of his head! Instant death!"

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

I've also just chalked the "damage" done by lightsabers to an abstraction representing exhaustion, fatigue, loss of mental focus, etc...

 

Not nessesarily physical harm.

 

TB

[keithcurtis]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

Stuff like that makes for great simulation but poor gaming. Sooner or later all of your PCs end up shedded or dead - usually within the first few games.

 

Some people like the wounding, maiming effects of chart-master (since that is the closest to what we are talking about) but huge numbers of people stayed away from the game because the did not want to have the DM say something like this "Holy cow! Look at that roll! Your Jedi Master just had his eye sockets blown right out of his head! Instant death!"

I think lightsabers in a campaign would definitely call for the Mook Rule. PCs and major NPCs should not be mowed down like flies.

 

Keith "Metaphor Mixer" Curtis

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

The problem with gaming in the SW universe has much less to do with lightsabers, and much more to do with the fact that a full-fledged Jedi is just grossly more powerful than a non-Jedi character. Further, a huge amount of storyline revolves around Jedi, regardless of time period.

 

Since most players are not kosher with one type of character being more powerful than everyone else, and many are not kosher with the game revolving around one character a disproportionate amount, it makes it difficult to run a SW game unless all the characters are Jedi or none of them are.

 

IMO, of course.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

The problem with gaming in the SW universe has much less to do with lightsabers, and much more to do with the fact that a full-fledged Jedi is just grossly more powerful than a non-Jedi character. Further, a huge amount of storyline revolves around Jedi, regardless of time period.

 

Since most players are not kosher with one type of character being more powerful than everyone else, and many are not kosher with the game revolving around one character a disproportionate amount, it makes it difficult to run a SW game unless all the characters are Jedi or none of them are.

 

IMO, of course.

I have to agree, I find the complaints on the D20 SW message boards about Jedi being more powerful or needing to be equal in power to the other classes at equivalent levels to be laughable.

 

Jedi are quantifiably better than non-Force weilding people. Primarily (IMO) Jedi are trained practically from birth to be Jedi, that gives them at least 10 more years worth of intensive training that non-Jedi players don't get. Now if you started off with 13 year old padawans (with 5 years of training) and match them up with 1st level soldiers, then you'd have power parity, IMO.

 

TB

[Nevenall]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

The problem with gaming in the SW universe has much less to do with lightsabers, and much more to do with the fact that a full-fledged Jedi is just grossly more powerful than a non-Jedi character. Further, a huge amount of storyline revolves around Jedi, regardless of time period.

 

Since most players are not kosher with one type of character being more powerful than everyone else, and many are not kosher with the game revolving around one character a disproportionate amount, it makes it difficult to run a SW game unless all the characters are Jedi or none of them are.

 

IMO, of course.

 

I, also, agree completely.

Though it is possible for a Jedi character to be lower in points then the rest of the characters in the campaign. If you can make that work for you.

 

As for lightsabers, I find that 10 Body damage with no defense is very capable of littering a session with limbs of all kinds. Others may find otherwise.

The reason I would use an attack power is for the stun. Whenever I've seen a limb severed by a lightsaber the target seems to need some time to recover from being stunned. Again, just me.

[Warp9]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

The main thing that is WRONG is the lightsabers. They keep presenting them as weapons that do damage.

 

Having just watched all six movies I can certainly say that lightsabers do not "do damage".

 

Lightsabers have one of 3 possible effects against a human sized foe.

 

Death.

Limb removal (which comes without any actual damage, since the limbs are removed cleanly and bloodless every time).

Miss.

 

Every RPG version of Star Wars I have seen has instead said "lightsabers do xd6 damage". That goes against every single use of a lightsaber in the movies.

 

For Non-Hero use I am simply inclined to create an effects table for hits. That basically contains a lot of deaths, and various limb removals, with maybe a single entry that actually does damage for that one in a 100 swing that only penetrates a half inch.

 

For hero I am seeing Multipower. With two powers, Major transform (missing limb), and major transform cumulative (dead). The cumulative on the "dead" power serves two purposes, it decreases the number of dice when selecting "dead" (thus making it easier to hack off limbs than to kill, and hacking off limbs seems to be common when fighting major foes), and it allows the lightsaber to still fight BIG creatures, those large enough to actually survive a single hit to the body.

I disagree. Anything that does a massive enough amount of damage will have those effects--that which you hit will be destroyed (which would give the result that you mention). Still, in theory, somebody like Superman could probably resist such a weapon.

 

And lets look at your contention: Lightsabers have one of 3 possible effects against a human sized foe. Death. Limb removal (which comes without any actual damage, since the limbs are removed cleanly and bloodless every time). Miss.

 

Please explain a scene from the movies. . . . Near the end of Attack of the Clones, when Anakin, and Obi-wan face Dooku (right before Yoda comes in), Dooku fights Obi-wan with his lightsaber. He hits him in the arm and leg (if memory serves).

 

Are you saying:

(a) that Dooku actually missed Obi-wan?

( That Dooku removed Obi-wan's limbs?

or © that Dooku killed Obi-wan?

 

It must have been one of those, because there can only be 3 outcomes--right?

[CSgeekHero]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

He hits him in the arm and leg (if memory serves).

Your memory is correct. Plus, in The Empire Strikes Back, Luke hits Darth Vader in the shoulder, but doesn't chop off his arm. It just incited Vader to a higher level of rage that ended with Luke losing his hand.

 

Killer Shirke is correct too. In Hero terms, if you follow the recommendations in Star Hero for space opera, regular characters would start out at 75 Base/75 Disadv. and for the movie heroes your looking at 100/100 for chargen. Yet, a force adept would be starting at 150/150.

 

It wouldn't surprise me to see Anakin/Vader and Luke being built on 400/100 or 400/200.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

The problem with gaming in the SW universe has much less to do with lightsabers' date=' and much more to do with the fact that a full-fledged Jedi is just grossly more powerful than a non-Jedi character. Further, a huge amount of storyline revolves around Jedi, regardless of time period. [/quote']

 

I have to agree with you there. A game that included Jedi would probably have to be run like an Ars Magica game where every one of the characters is a Jedi.

 

It would be cool, IMO, to run a Star Wars game with Jedi as the primary characters and each player also controls one or more sidekicks. A clever GM could arrange things so that, occassionally, the Jedi characters went one way and the sidekicks another. It would give the players an opportunity to play different types of characters and the campaign world would be enriched with a larger inter-connected storyline.

 

And my take on the Lightsaber is an AVLD vs Force Field or Hardened Armor. Apply the HIt Locations and Impairing/Maiming rules and you're set.

[gewing]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

Stuff like that makes for great simulation but poor gaming. Sooner or later all of your PCs end up shedded or dead - usually within the first few games.

 

Some people like the wounding, maiming effects of chart-master (since that is the closest to what we are talking about) but huge numbers of people stayed away from the game because the did not want to have the DM say something like this "Holy cow! Look at that roll! Your Jedi Master just had his eye sockets blown right out of his head! Instant death!"

 

 

Either I or one of the other players in a game had an arrow go in one ear and out the other.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

Either I or one of the other players in a game had an arrow go in one ear and out the other.

Can beat that one....

In one campaign I played in, one of the two main close combat fighters was taken out during the inital charge by an abysmal failure on a movement/manuvering roll.

Well... the berserker just stepped in a gopher hole and broke his leg in three places. You're on your own now...

Oi

And then there was the time that another character was instantly killed by a halfling with a miners pick.

Sooo off topic.

I agree with the AVLD build for lightsabers. Its how we eventually did them back in our old Space Hero campaign. I'd add combat luck to the applicable defences as well, which would explain Obi Wan surviving two hits without losing any major body bits. Unless you rule it as a Force power: invisible TK force feild. And the blaster deflection/reflection is without doubt a force power... remember that Vader did it without a saber. I recon the main reason for using the saber is to get the bonuses from martial manuvers, weapon bonuses, and skill levels. And perhaps the Reflection adder needs a saber as the focus?

[Guest C--]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

I'd just make them energy RKAs, with no range. They're 3 or 4D6 RKAs in a world where nobody has more than like 5 rED. And people definitely survive hits from them without limb removal. Vader got hit in the arm, and it just singed him. He even said "Aarrgghh!!" to show that he took Stun from it.

 

My problem with gaming in the Star Wars universe is that the story has already been told. We all know that the universe will be saved. The important story is done. The end.

[nexus]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

I've seen this idea before and I think it comes from trying to model a visual effect exactly. Lightsabers do damage. They just do allot of it. The "instant death" and maiming are the effect of that damage. As others have pointed out people have survived hits from light sabers without losing limbs.

 

Balancing a game between Jedi and non Jedi can be difficult, but it can be done. We played a d6 Star Wars game for years with a Jedi and the game never revolved around him and none of the players felt outclassed. Actually, the felt more outclassed by my PC than the Jedi.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

My problem with gaming in the Star Wars universe is that the story has already been told. We all know that the universe will be saved. The important story is done. The end.

That's the problem I have in almost every licensed RPG property. Even in the more episodic ones, the story revolves around establiushed characters.

 

Keith "makin' up my own stuff" Curtis

[Dauntless]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

I have to agree that there aren't only 3 possibilities. I haven't seen Sith yet, but in Phantom Menace, Dooku scars Obi-Wan on the legs and arm before a last second block from Anakin saves Obi-Wan from the Coup de Grace.

 

However, this does highlight one of the things I'm grappling with in my own game design. I've always felt that damage should be based on two factors, the lethality of the weapon and how well you hit. A Lightsaber is obviously an extremely lethal weapon, but if you just get grazed by it, so what? I've always hated the fact that it's possible in most game systems to just barely hit and then do the maximum amount of damage possible, or conversely, to roll extremely well to hit (but not quite a critical hit) and then roll almost all 1's for damage.

 

Other than implementing some funky house rules, I don't think there's an elegant way to do this in the regular Hero rules though.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

I have to agree that there aren't only 3 possibilities. I haven't seen Sith yet, but in Phantom Menace, Dooku scars Obi-Wan on the legs and arm before a last second block from Anakin saves Obi-Wan from the Coup de Grace.

 

However, this does highlight one of the things I'm grappling with in my own game design. I've always felt that damage should be based on two factors, the lethality of the weapon and how well you hit. A Lightsaber is obviously an extremely lethal weapon, but if you just get grazed by it, so what? I've always hated the fact that it's possible in most game systems to just barely hit and then do the maximum amount of damage possible, or conversely, to roll extremely well to hit (but not quite a critical hit) and then roll almost all 1's for damage.

 

Other than implementing some funky house rules, I don't think there's an elegant way to do this in the regular Hero rules though.

 

Going along with the "Hero weapons don't do enough damage" endless debate, this exact problem has led me to consider an optional rule that would add +1 DC to an attack for every 2 that the attack is made by. Have yet to try it in play tho.

[Jhamin]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

I've always hated the fact that it's possible in most game systems to just barely hit and then do the maximum amount of damage possible' date=' or conversely, to roll extremely well to hit (but not quite a critical hit) and then roll almost all 1's for damage.[/quote']

 

Of course the logical result of fixing this is a game where a lethal weapon used by a skilled assailant will kill it's target.

 

That sounds like a desirable result until you want to have your PC's face a team of skilled opponents. And then have a third of them die outright when hit in the vitals by something fragmentary.

 

Gurps is infamous for the lethality of it's combat system, and I have found that the last iteration of the old World of Darkness (I think they called them the "second edition revised" rules) has some similar problems. They result in games where everybody talks alot more than they shoot. This was the desired result of both systems, but runs against the grain of Star Wars.

 

It's actually pretty hard to run a coherent plotline when everybody dies after every serious fight. Which is more or less why lightsaber duels result in damage rather than insti-death.

[Inu]

Re: Finally figured out what I hate about Star Wars in RPGs

 

Gotta find the right system for your genre.

 

I've never gotten involved in any of the "The Force in Hero" discussions because I don't plan on running Jedi using the Hero System. It's too crunchy for my tastes. I'd run non-Force-Using (or mere Force Adepts, not Jedi) using Hero. Say, a bounty hunter game. Dark Champions in space, with blasters.

 

I'm working on an adaptation from Torg, myself. And for lightsabres, I have two systems. One is the rules for use against normal people. In that case, it's a very high damage value and uses normal melee rules. Heroes can always spend force points to reduce the actual llethality (representing 'near misses', akin to combat luck). When fighting another lightsabre wielder, however, the system changes. Here, a successful 'hit' just indicates 'I got into a better position this round.' If you success by a huge margin, it goes straight to damage. Otherwise, it gives penalties to the next round, lets you force the person back, things like that.

 

But that's getting well away from the semi-realistic combat that Hero seems to support, and so making that kind of system in Hero may not be convenient. But then again, you can houserule anything.

 

But always keep genre in mind, and use the right rules to reflect it!

 

(One things: If you do use Hero, and damage, then lightsabres should do +1 stun, at least. I haven't seen ANYONE take a lightsabre hit and come back for more, even if the wound wasn't deadly or incapacitating - see Kenobi, Obi-Wan.)