Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

[FenrisUlf]

Just a quick question here -- does anyone here think that supervillains could or would keep their secret identities after the first time they're caught and put on trial? I was wondering this after a recent reading of CKC. Some of those villains have been criminals for a long time. Haven't they been caught or exposed yet?

 

I just would like some input on why the courts and media would allow an arrested villian (or hero, for that matter) to keep their secret ID. It strikes me as silly to argue that someone who just knocked over First National and wiped out half of the business district could claim 'Right to Privacy' or whatever.

[Asperion]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

If the villain were captured and put on trial, then part of the trial will be that he/she will have to reveal their secret ID. If the villain were to refuse to show their ID then the court could add Contempt of Court to all the other charges. The hero testifying has to show his ID as well, unles various laws have been passed that alters that or they fall under various protections that protect undercover cops who do not have to show their IDs as well. Although for that last provision, the hero MUST be a member of the law enforcement community.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

Could go a couple of ways.

 

If they're very famous as a result of the trial, etc., then it could become public ID. "Hey, that's Frank deCarlo, the infamous Manslaughter ! I heard he broke out from Stronghold last week! What's he doing in Orlando?"

 

Most would probably land into the "no ID" category (ie no public, no secret) and have a limited reputation. Cops, heroes, etc. who keep up with such things might recognize them or the name if the opportunity arises, but most normal folks wouldn't recognize them out of costume. I think most of the Marvel/DC villains fall in this category. Max Dillon could probably walk into a jewelry store and no one would think twice about it until he pulled his Electro duds on or started throwing lightning bolts.

 

If they get a new identity, with forged documents, etc. they could probably set up a new Secret ID. Disguises and/or cosmetic surgery could help.

[sinanju]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

Just a quick question here -- does anyone here think that supervillains could or would keep their secret identities after the first time they're caught and put on trial? I was wondering this after a recent reading of CKC. Some of those villains have been criminals for a long time. Haven't they been caught or exposed yet?

 

I just would like some input on why the courts and media would allow an arrested villian (or hero, for that matter) to keep their secret ID. It strikes me as silly to argue that someone who just knocked over First National and wiped out half of the business district could claim 'Right to Privacy' or whatever.

 

I don't think for an instant that a supervillain would be allowed to maintain a secret ID after being _arrested_, much less tried and convicted. But then, how many really do?

 

Consider Spider-Man's opponents. Everyone knows who Kingpin is. Rhino, Electro, Vulture, Doctor Octopus--there's no big secret there either. Green Goblin maintained his secret, but he was never arrested as far as I know. Just beaten up, an eventually died by his own hand (though not intentionally).

 

The Lizard may have a secret ID, but I'm not sure about that.

 

It appears to me that most of Spidey's opponents who've actually been acknowledged as having been jailed (as opposed to those who haven't) have known identities, even if we seldom hear the real name mentioned. And I suspect this is fairly typical.

 

Edit: Note that most of them wouldn't qualify as PUBLIC ID either. Except the Kingpin, maybe. But they sure don't have secret IDs. If Electro goes on a crime spree, the cops know who to look for....

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

I don't think most people follow the Supervillain World closely enough to worry about the secret id. Secret or public don't just take into account names, they cover appearance and other aspects of the character as well. It's very possible that someone can serve time and no one will have any real idea that Arty Weist was once Warhead. Of course law enforcement will know it but I don't feel that's a big enough group to justify a change from Secret to non id. Of course it would depend on the crime committed as well. Blowing up PRIMUS HQ is a much bigger crime for the press getting caught robbing the Diamond Exchange.

[fbdaury]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

The only villains that i can see maintaining a secret ID after a stay in prison are those with multipower/oihid/shapechange powers, since they could be unmasked and fingerprinted, etc. and still not be traceable back to their Secret Identity. Although haw they could explain the length of their absence should prove interesting.

[sinanju]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

I strongly disagree. The whole essence of a Secret ID is that you have an alternate persona you can disappear into, one in which your enemies cannot attack you because they can't find you. Why else do superheroes work so hard to protect them? "If Evil Guy Man knew that John Smith was actually Captain Hero, he would avenge himself on my loved ones!"*

 

If you are a supervillain and the authorities know your real identity, your secret isn't a secret at all. Any time they even suspect that Electro was involved in in a crime, they're gonna be all over Max like white on rice. Sure, John Q. Public may not know you from Adam, but John Q. Public isn't trying to find you. The local police, the state police, the FBI, the local newspaper or television reporter or a licensed PI may be--and they can all find you with remarkable ease because your identity is a public record now.

 

*Yeah, there's also the "Aunt May would have a heart attack" rationale, too. But villains seem less concerned about that as a rule.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

And...they, like their superheroic counterparts are celebrities. There is an entire industry dedicated to telling us what J-Lo demands when she appears on a talkshow. Surely they'd find something to do with villain Secret ID's.

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

I strongly disagree. The whole essence of a Secret ID is that you have an alternate persona you can disappear into, one in which your enemies cannot attack you because they can't find you. Why else do superheroes work so hard to protect them? "If Evil Guy Man knew that John Smith was actually Captain Hero, he would avenge himself on my loved ones!"*

 

If you are a supervillain and the authorities know your real identity, your secret isn't a secret at all. Any time they even suspect that Electro was involved in in a crime, they're gonna be all over Max like white on rice. Sure, John Q. Public may not know you from Adam, but John Q. Public isn't trying to find you. The local police, the state police, the FBI, the local newspaper or television reporter or a licensed PI may be--and they can all find you with remarkable ease because your identity is a public record now.

 

*Yeah, there's also the "Aunt May would have a heart attack" rationale, too. But villains seem less concerned about that as a rule.

The authorities know the real names of literally tens of thousands of criminals in this country which they can't find. Knowing someone's real name has nothing to do with how well they can disappear into the environment.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

In my campaign, arrested super-criminals usually go into

the "neither" ID type of category.

But my campaign also has the dreaded MRA, so if they

werent registered that way its double jeopardy

 

 

 

Mutant Reg. Act.!

[sinanju]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

The authorities know the real names of literally tens of thousands of criminals in this country which they can't find. Knowing someone's real name has nothing to do with how well they can disappear into the environment.

 

It certainly helps, though. Or do you think the police would rather _not_ know the real identities of all those criminals?

 

"Who is he?"

"We don't know."

"What's he look like?"

"He wears a green-and-yellow costume with a lightning motif."

"And when he's not in a costume?"

"...dunno."

"Well...that's helpful."

 

"Who is he?"

"Max Whatever, AKA Electro. Last known address is X, relatives are A, B, C and E. Known associates are F, G, H, J and K. Here's his arrest record and his bank records and credit history and his phone records--from last time he had a phone, anyhow--and we checked for recent activity on his credit cards and questioned his friends and relatives..."

 

Yeah, they still may not find him. But a secret ID stops all of that cold. They can't even try. If you've been publicly identified in court, you don't have a Secret ID anymore.

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

It certainly helps, though. Or do you think the police would rather _not_ know the real identities of all those criminals?

 

"Who is he?"

"We don't know."

"What's he look like?"

"He wears a green-and-yellow costume with a lightning motif."

"And when he's not in a costume?"

"...dunno."

"Well...that's helpful."

 

"Who is he?"

"Max Whatever, AKA Electro. Last known address is X, relatives are A, B, C and E. Known associates are F, G, H, J and K. Here's his arrest record and his bank records and credit history and his phone records--from last time he had a phone, anyhow--and we checked for recent activity on his credit cards and questioned his friends and relatives..."

 

Yeah, they still may not find him. But a secret ID stops all of that cold. They can't even try. If you've been publicly identified in court, you don't have a Secret ID anymore.

Of course it helps but that has very little to do with the 99.9% of the people who are not associated with law enforcement. Do you know who the FBI's 10 most wanted are? Me either.

 

I just don't believe you lose your secret id just because you have gone on trial because too few people pay any attention to that fact. Look at the comics for inspiration. How many times have the Wrecking Crew been captured? You think citizens are telling the police Dirk Garthwaite just robbed the bank? No, they say the Wrecker was just here.

[sinanju]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

Of course it helps but that has very little to do with the 99.9% of the people who are not associated with law enforcement. Do you know who the FBI's 10 most wanted are? Me either.

 

I just don't believe you lose your secret id just because you have gone on trial because too few people pay any attention to that fact. Look at the comics for inspiration. How many times have the Wrecking Crew been captured? You think citizens are telling the police Dirk Garthwaite just robbed the bank? No, they say the Wrecker was just here.

 

How could you NOT lose your Secret ID when you go on trial and your real identity is disclosed in the public record? The whole point is that nobody knows Spider-Man is really Peter Parker, so when JJJ launches a smear campaign or the DA issues a warrant for Spider-Man, nobody knows to look for Peter Parker. Who, unlike Spider-Man, has a well-documented existence, including a physical address, a job (with paper trail), bank records, phone records, and all the usual handles by which people can be identified and tracked.

 

Spider-Man just stays out of costume for a while and nobody can find him. Nobody. If the police know to look for Peter Parker--even if John Q. Citizen doesn't know Parker from Adam--retreating to his "secret" identity doesn't help. If the Kingpin can look up Spider-Man's real name in public records...how does he have a secret identity?

 

"Who robbed the bank?"

"It was the Wrecker!"

It takes five minutes or less for the cop on the scene to pass that on to the dispatcher (or type it into the computer in his car) and get back the info that "Wrecker" is AKA Dirk Garthwaite, along with a photo and/or address, record, other aliases, know associates, etc. His cover couldn't be any more blown.

 

It's not a PUBLIC ID, I agree. John Q. Citizen doesn't know and probably doesn't care. But anyone who _does_ care can find out his real identity with ease. It isn't a secret anymore.

 

Admit it, you're just _wrong_. :-)

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

Unfortunately you're forgetting that secret id is a social limitation with an activation roll in 5E not a flat disadvantage. What you're describing to me is an adjustment from frequent/major to very frequent/major. Most people still have no idea who the person is but it becomes harder for him to hide himself.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

This raises a very common problem I have encountered in my games. Villains built with Secret ID's are annoying because once caught, they can't use Secret ID any more.

[Karma]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

You think citizens are telling the police Dirk Garthwaite just robbed the bank? No' date=' they say the Wrecker was just here. [/quote']

 

At which point the police look to see if The Wrecker has ever been arrested and if so put out an APB on Dirk Garthwaite containing his uncostumed and costumed appearance, his Alias as The Wrecker, list of associates (including the real names of the Wrecking Crew who have also been arrested), last known address etc.

Secret ID means that the people who would most benefit from knowing your real ID (ie. Hunteds) don't know it. Public ID is when people who couldn't care less can tell you the real name of a hero/villian (Most villians never get this public even if they are world shakers unless they use their real ID as their 'villian ID' (and even then the man on the street would most likely be unaware that of Dr Doom's or Baron Zemo's given names). Neither ID is when those who care enough to find out your civilain ID can, but most people wouldn't make the connection.

[Scott Destroyer]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

Hello,

 

Originally Posted by FenrisUlf:

Just a quick question here -- does anyone here think that supervillains could or would keep their secret identities after the first time they're caught and put on trial? I was wondering this after a recent reading of CKC. Some of those villains have been criminals for a long time. Haven't they been caught or exposed yet?

 

I just would like some input on why the courts and media would allow an arrested villian (or hero, for that matter) to keep their secret ID. It strikes me as silly to argue that someone who just knocked over First National and wiped out half of the business district could claim 'Right to Privacy' or whatever.

 

A super-criminal can refuse to give even his true name until he's seen his lawyer; he'll be booked as a "John Doe". The lawyer could then argue to a judge that any revelation of his client's true identity, even to law enforcement officials, will put said client and his family, friends, and associates in danger from criminal enemies, who have spies and agents among the police. If the judge buys the argument (bribery, blackmail, or intimidation can help here), the criminal can be tried as "John Doe #X, aka (super-name)", and any names he gave the booking officers, real or fake, will show up in the records among his aliases. Simple as that.

 

Criminals who have already let their true identities slip into the public records have options, too. Launch lawsuits to question accuracy of the records; bribe judges or records clerks to have records altered, purged, or sealed;work good connections with intelligence or security agencies (or bribe someone with such connections) to get the info changed or deleted, hire Cybermind or another SH hacker for a little social engineering - all these methods have been tried, with varying success, in real life. Once records are dealt with, there remains only the problem of officers and other witnesses with undesirable information. I hear Steel Commando's offering a special on "looks-like-an-accident" assassinations this month...

 

Originally Posted by Super Squirrel:

This raises a very common problem I have encountered in my games. Villains built with Secret ID's are annoying because once caught, they can't use Secret ID any more.

 

Sure they can. Skip parole (or bust out of the slammer), go underground, talk to the right forged-documents dealer and possibly a crooked plastic surgeon (or Teleios), and voilà, new Secret Identity. Criminals with a bit of foresight will have this sort of thing prepped and maintained beforehand, so that authorities cannot narrow their search to identities established after their escape/disappearance. True pros will be able to convincingly pass off a pre-established fake identity even to the authorities, enabling them to live under their real one after release from prison.

 

Hope this helps!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

I think the answer to the question whether the villain gets to keep his secret ID depends on one simple question. Would you, as a GM, allow a PC character to keep nhis Secret ID disadvantage points if his identity were revealed in the same fashion?

 

Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.

 

Depending on the milieu, there may be "mask laws" which allow characters to appear before the justice system using "in costume" names, with true ID's not revealed until some stage of the proceedings have passed (perhaps a guilty verdict).

 

If a character refuses to reveal his true name, that brings it down to the ability of the justice system to make that determination. Where do Supers leave their identification when in costume? If it's on their person, the police have the info. If you never carry anything in your Super ID, don't try to tell me later that you change back to normal ID and take a cab home - no cash, no credit card, no ride!

 

In most cases, I would expect the system would simply publish pictures of the unmasked Super and request tips from the public. A character with a real second ID likely has lots of acquaintances who will say "Hey, isn't that Fred? No wonder he hasn't been around lately. What's this? A $500 reward for information leading to his identification?" DONE

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

Where do Supers leave their identification when in costume? If it's on their person' date=' the police have the info. If you never carry anything in your Super ID, don't try to tell me later that you change back to normal ID and take a cab home - no cash, no credit card, no ride![/quote']

I think I sense a market for a new item: an indestructible wallet (or small flat case of some kind) that can only be opened by the owner. Supers could use it to keep their ID, some cash, etc. inside. If captured by someone (an enemy, the police, whoever) their ID is safe from discovery. Sure, the case can be confiscated, but the ID sealed inside can't be gotten at.

 

So how would you build it? Unbreakable Personal Focus is a good bet...but what actual Powers should it have, and why? How would you represent a case you can't open or destroy to get at the contents?

 

Maybe a "Bag of Holding"-type construct using XDim Move?

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

Thanks for all opinions and information here, it's very helpful. Myself, I would probably go with the villain's Secret ID disadvantage becoming either 'Watched/Hunted by Police and media' or a more simple 'Public ID'.

 

And talking about supervillains who've been arrested, how would the cops handle the lineup without getting into a legal minefield?

 

'Tell us if you recognize anyone you see, Professor Jeneus.'

 

'I already TOLD you who robbed my lab, it was the Living Skeleton.'

 

SIGH. 'Just humor us, professor.'

 

'Okay, it was that guy in the middle, the one with no flesh.'

 

I can't help but to think that any lawyer with half a brain could get an ID like that tossed as prejudicial. 'Your honor, my client was framed in the lineup! He was the only fleshless skeleton there! It was prejudicial against the living dead!'

 

Hmm, maybe that's why so many supervillains stay out of jail.

[sinanju]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

And talking about supervillains who've been arrested, how would the cops handle the lineup without getting into a legal minefield?

 

'Tell us if you recognize anyone you see, Professor Jeneus.'

 

'I already TOLD you who robbed my lab, it was the Living Skeleton.'

 

SIGH. 'Just humor us, professor.'

 

'Okay, it was that guy in the middle, the one with no flesh.'

 

I can't help but to think that any lawyer with half a brain could get an ID like that tossed as prejudicial. 'Your honor, my client was framed in the lineup! He was the only fleshless skeleton there! It was prejudicial against the living dead!'

 

D.A. Jack McCoy: "If the suspect were eight feet tall or weighed 600 pounds, it would be equally difficult to find five other people who closely resembled him. That's not prejudicial--it's a fact. Maybe living skeletons should reconsider crime as a career choice."

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

Thanks for all opinions and information here, it's very helpful. Myself, I would probably go with the villain's Secret ID disadvantage becoming either 'Watched/Hunted by Police and media' or a more simple 'Public ID'.

 

And talking about supervillains who've been arrested, how would the cops handle the lineup without getting into a legal minefield?

 

'Tell us if you recognize anyone you see, Professor Jeneus.'

 

'I already TOLD you who robbed my lab, it was the Living Skeleton.'

 

SIGH. 'Just humor us, professor.'

 

'Okay, it was that guy in the middle, the one with no flesh.'

 

I can't help but to think that any lawyer with half a brain could get an ID like that tossed as prejudicial. 'Your honor, my client was framed in the lineup! He was the only fleshless skeleton there! It was prejudicial against the living dead!'

 

Hmm, maybe that's why so many supervillains stay out of jail.

 

Or you could just have a number of fleshless guys in hte lineup.

 

Seriously, it shouldn't be too hard to fake.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

I think I sense a market for a new item: an indestructible wallet (or small flat case of some kind) that can only be opened by the owner. Supers could use it to keep their ID' date=' some cash, etc. inside. If captured by someone (an enemy, the police, whoever) their ID is safe from discovery. Sure, the case can be confiscated, but the ID sealed inside can't be gotten at.[/quote']

 

I have a player in my game whose costume includes two fairly prominent pockets/pouches which he uses to carry a bit of cash. I don't think he carries ID, but he notes that he may want to use a pay phone, and you generally need change for that.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

I usually write a villain up with either

 

Secret Identity

 

or

 

Social Limit: Criminal Record

 

depending on the character. Having both fits only certain cases. Most villains have neither a Public or Secret.

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains and their Secret ID, post-trial

 

Here's a question then: Does Captain America have a secret id?

 

The government knows who he is. SHIELD knows who he is. All the Avengers know who he is. Does the fact that all of those people know who he is negate the fact that the other 99.99% of the population doesn't?

 

If you answer "no" then ultimately the answer should be "no" for a villain as well. Just because a small group of people know who you are doesn't mean that every aspect of your personal life is lost.