Agent X Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Is anybody else pretty much bored with the Established Organizations in Champions? Primus, Demon, Viper, Genocide, and Raven just don't do it for me. The approach to organizations has suffered from serious flaws as far as I'm concerned. Primus is just been so exploited there's nothing to it anymore. I think one weakness of Primus is that it is using Supersoldiers who all look roughly the same. Primus lacks variety and variety is what Superheroes are all about. All the villain organizations (except maybe Raven and that's just because I've ignored them so long I don't remember much) suffer from extremely wierd compositions of leadership. I don't know. I am interested in Superheroes and Supervillains - not Viper Agent Bob, Chuck, Daryl, and Winnifred. The supervillains in these organizations have a few gems but most just lack any appeal. Often, the best supervillains in these organizations don't even feel like they fit in with the organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinDangaioh Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Well........, yes. Primus, Demon and the like are a bit lackluster and seem to be one trick ponies. I'm not sure about UNTIL(coughcough UNIT coughcough), though The last time I read a comic using agents was that mindswapping one-shot issue of JLA with Kobra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by ShinDangaioh Well........, yes. Primus, Demon and the like are a bit lackluster and seem to be one trick ponies. I'm not sure about UNTIL(coughcough UNIT coughcough), though The last time I read a comic using agents was that mindswapping one-shot issue of JLA with Kobra. I used to enjoy the occasional story with Hydra or AIM or the Hive. The thing I remember about those stories is they always included a guest star superhero in the comic or a supervillain that was being used or using the villainous organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Some of these agencies do suffer from the "venerability factor" of having been used and reused over the years, although each rewrite of them has added something special to the basic framework: Scott Bennie's VIPER sourcebook brought enough depth and variety to that group for years of roleplaying use (as well as a bunch of neat supervillains), and Shelley Crystal Mactyre really fleshed out PRIMUS in her e-book. Still, I admit that those were essentially elaborations of the same basic theme. If you haven't used it in the past, I'd suggest trying to find a copy of Steve Perrin's VOICE of Doom adventure for 3E Champions. VOICE has a flavour quite different from many of the other published Champions groups: strongly international, especially the fascinating cadre of supervillains; a structure more reminiscent of an Oriental secret society than a high-tech super agency; a more vicious and lethal M.O. than most villain groups; and a different motivation than many other such groups - not to conquer the world, but to keep it destabilized so that VOICE's corner of it remains secure. Since VOICE was used as part of an adventure module, it's more sketchily described than some of the others mentioned above, but that can work to your benefit in leaving lots of room for individualization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden Some of these agencies do suffer from the "venerability factor" of having been used and reused over the years, although each rewrite of them has added something special to the basic framework: Scott Bennie's VIPER sourcebook brought enough depth and variety to that group for years of roleplaying use (as well as a bunch of neat supervillains), and Shelley Crystal Mactyre really fleshed out PRIMUS in her e-book. Still, I admit that those were essentially elaborations of the same basic theme. If you haven't used it in the past, I'd suggest trying to find a copy of Steve Perrin's VOICE of Doom adventure for 3E Champions. VOICE has a flavour quite different from many of the other published Champions groups: strongly international, especially the fascinating cadre of supervillains; a structure more reminiscent of an Oriental secret society than a high-tech super agency; a more vicious and lethal M.O. than most villain groups; and a different motivation than many other such groups - not to conquer the world, but to keep it destabilized so that VOICE's corner of it remains secure. Since VOICE was used as part of an adventure module, it's more sketchily described than some of the others mentioned above, but that can work to your benefit in leaving lots of room for individualization. I LOVE VOICE. I just haven't used them yet. I had a great idea for VOICE once. I was going to have a Chinese Superteam, the Heroes, and VOICE fight over the Panchen Lama. It was inspired by the Chinese kidnapping of the Panchen Lama and the installation of their own choice of Panchen Lama. I was stunned that the Chinese would so baldly hurt a little boy for their political purposes. Sadly, I had to move away for awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syberdwarf2 Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 I agree with Agent X. The organizations are overused. Personally, I'd like to see a fleshing out of the Card Shark crime organization from 4th ed Dark Champions. On the other hand, it is nice to run a game with a premade org, it eliminates SOME of the paperwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Syberdwarf2 I agree with Agent X. The organizations are overused. Personally, I'd like to see a fleshing out of the Card Shark crime organization from 4th ed Dark Champions. On the other hand, it is nice to run a game with a premade org, it eliminates SOME of the paperwork. Superskrull has worked on a Card Organization that I think is far superior to the Card Shark organization. Maybe he'll you about it if you ask him nicely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 The organizations do not really bother me. In 15 sessions we have interacted with VIPER and UNTIL twice and IHA and PRIMUS once. I have used quite a few MARS agents, which is good because it gets the police involved in the game. The problem is, no matter who you end up using in PRIMUS or UNTIL's place, it will always end up being played like PRIMUS and UNTIL. The same thing goes for VIPER and IHA. Those organizations are embedded in out minds and even if you use COBRA and SHIELD in out games it will still come off as our tried-and-trues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith The organizations do not really bother me. In 15 sessions we have interacted with VIPER and UNTIL twice and IHA and PRIMUS once. I have used quite a few MARS agents, which is good because it gets the police involved in the game. The problem is, no matter who you end up using in PRIMUS or UNTIL's place, it will always end up being played like PRIMUS and UNTIL. The same thing goes for VIPER and IHA. Those organizations are embedded in out minds and even if you use COBRA and SHIELD in out games it will still come off as our tried-and-trues. My solution for Primus would be the use of Supers instead of Super-Soldiers. That seems to be something many try to explain away as an option the government wouldn't go with because of the independence of the supers but I just don't see that rationale being the only one the government might adopt. The way to make the villain organizations is to always tie the adventure to a unique villain, most likely a supervillain. I never want to just fight a Viper or Cobra or Whatever Team. I want something new, a twist of some sort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X My solution for Primus would be the use of Supers instead of Super-Soldiers. That seems to be something many try to explain away as an option the government wouldn't go with because of the independence of the supers but I just don't see that rationale being the only one the government might adopt. I never actually envisioned PRIMUS as being super-soldiers. I envisioned them as ex-Navy Seals/Commandoes led be an occasional super-soldier. Silver Avengers almost never show up in my games though, and the 5th Edition PRIMUS agents are all basically tough normals. The way to make the villain organizations is to always tie the adventure to a unique villain, most likely a supervillain. I never want to just fight a Viper or Cobra or Whatever Team. I want something new, a twist of some sort. I can understand that. I always just preferred to use VIPER thugs over everyday common thugs. At least with VIPER you always had the potential of tieing a random robbery into a larger event in the future. That was a little more difficult to do when the robbers being stopped were just Moe, Larry, Curly, Shemp, and Curly Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith I never actually envisioned PRIMUS as being super-soldiers. I envisioned them as ex-Navy Seals/Commandoes led be an occasional super-soldier. Silver Avengers almost never show up in my games though, and the 5th Edition PRIMUS agents are all basically tough normals. I can understand that. I always just preferred to use VIPER thugs over everyday common thugs. At least with VIPER you always had the potential of tieing a random robbery into a larger event in the future. That was a little more difficult to do when the robbers being stopped were just Moe, Larry, Curly, Shemp, and Curly Joe. Didn't someone come up with some supers inspired by the Stooges? I know there was a write-up of Stooge Fu but this was especially inspiring to all Stooge fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Re: Bored with Champions Organizations Originally posted by Agent X Is anybody else pretty much bored with the Established Organizations in Champions? Primus, Demon, Viper, Genocide, and Raven just don't do it for me. The approach to organizations has suffered from serious flaws as far as I'm concerned. Primus is just been so exploited there's nothing to it anymore. I think one weakness of Primus is that it is using Supersoldiers who all look roughly the same. Primus lacks variety and variety is what Superheroes are all about. All the villain organizations (except maybe Raven and that's just because I've ignored them so long I don't remember much) suffer from extremely wierd compositions of leadership. I don't know. I am interested in Superheroes and Supervillains - not Viper Agent Bob, Chuck, Daryl, and Winnifred. The supervillains in these organizations have a few gems but most just lack any appeal. Often, the best supervillains in these organizations don't even feel like they fit in with the organization. I've always kind of done my own (cribbing ideas from many sources) AEGIS (Very much like SHIELD) UNICORN (A cross between UNTIL and UNCLE) D'Ordo Draconis (Cross between the Illuminati and Demon) The Serpent Society (Cross between COIL and Viper) PSI is the only one I like as is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Primus In my neck of the woods, A a few Pcs have become Silver avengers, and One in particular has a rivalry with disad The Golden avenger,he follows orders well, but thinks he can do better. placing supers in these orginizations does help I have a Viper force 3 set up a 5 man super strike team for UNTIL The Card Sharks even have a second strind bassed of the Tarot..... But thats just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Re: Re: Bored with Champions Organizations Originally posted by MisterVimes I've always kind of done my own (cribbing ideas from many sources) AEGIS (Very much like SHIELD) UNICORN (A cross between UNTIL and UNCLE) D'Ordo Draconis (Cross between the Illuminati and Demon) The Serpent Society (Cross between COIL and Viper) PSI is the only one I like as is. I made Viper work for me in the old days by subsuming it into COIL. I got rid of the Arthurian angle in COIL (What the?) and ran a plotline where Dr. Draconis was hired to refine the COIL gene. He, of course, started creating dinosaur men. The players did not appreciate facing creatures that had oodles of knockback resistance, damage reduction, and affect a hex melee attacks. I can't understand why? They only had 3s or 4s for Speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Re: Primus Originally posted by Patriot In my neck of the woods, A a few Pcs have become Silver avengers, and One in particular has a rivalry with disad The Golden avenger,he follows orders well, but thinks he can do better. placing supers in these orginizations does help I have a Viper force 3 set up a 5 man super strike team for UNTIL The Card Sharks even have a second strind bassed of the Tarot..... But thats just me. We have a guy who has a Silver Avenger. I don't like to bring up my problem with Primus around him. What you do is definitely a workable compromise for my concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X I LOVE VOICE. I just haven't used them yet. I had a great idea for VOICE once. I was going to have a Chinese Superteam, the Heroes, and VOICE fight over the Panchen Lama. It was inspired by the Chinese kidnapping of the Panchen Lama and the installation of their own choice of Panchen Lama. I was stunned that the Chinese would so baldly hurt a little boy for their political purposes. Sadly, I had to move away for awhile. Very cool idea! Just the sort of high-profile, politically upsetting stunt VOICE would be involved in, particularly with Lung Hung's abiding interest in China. I've used an elaborated version of VOICE for years, and expect to bring them into my new campaign; this idea is definitely going on my list. Moochers Grass Seeds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden Very cool idea! Just the sort of high-profile, politically upsetting stunt VOICE would be involved in, particularly with Lung Hung's abiding interest in China. I've used an elaborated version of VOICE for years, and expect to bring them into my new campaign; this idea is definitely going on my list. Moochers Grass Seeds! Just be sure to credit me if you use it. I'm serious. Just kidding. No I'm not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superskrull Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Superskrull has worked on a Card Organization that I think is far superior to the Card Shark organization. Maybe he'll you about it if you ask him nicely? Huh? I have my Deck agents, my Royals and my 2 wildcards. I really never got any farther than a paragraph or two on anything but the agents themselves. I had some ideas about using card values as tiers for the Royalty but so far it isn't any cooler than using the Royal Flush Gang with a discard pile of agents. Of course, there's the hidden card options and keeping the Aces up your sleeves. Oh, and declaring a card type wild to keep players from being able to know their opponent's hand. Then there's those awesome battle tactics and plans like 52 Card Pick-up and 5 or 7 Card Stud, not to mention Shuffling the Deck or Picking a Card. OK, fine, maybe I just don't wanna show my hand yet with several players in my game reading this stuff. Then there are a few plans I had for reworking DEMON into more of a Tarot-based group. Seems like I'd find more use for that one though by working it over and feeding it to Agent X as partial background for my PC in his PBEM/summer extravaganza. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Superskrull Huh? I have my Deck agents, my Royals and my 2 wildcards. I really never got any farther than a paragraph or two on anything but the agents themselves. I had some ideas about using card values as tiers for the Royalty but so far it isn't any cooler than using the Royal Flush Gang with a discard pile of agents. Of course, there's the hidden card options and keeping the Aces up your sleeves. Oh, and declaring a card type wild to keep players from being able to know their opponent's hand. Then there's those awesome battle tactics and plans like 52 Card Pick-up and 5 or 7 Card Stud, not to mention Shuffling the Deck or Picking a Card. OK, fine, maybe I just don't wanna show my hand yet with several players in my game reading this stuff. Then there are a few plans I had for reworking DEMON into more of a Tarot-based group. Seems like I'd find more use for that one though by working it over and feeding it to Agent X as partial background for my PC in his PBEM/summer extravaganza. TAROT villains - KEWL! Give me some ammunition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syberdwarf2 Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Superskrull has worked on a Card Organization that I think is far superior to the Card Shark organization. Maybe he'll you about it if you ask him nicely? Uh, Mister Superskrull?....... Uh.... PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syberdwarf2 Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Syberdwarf2 Uh, Mister Superskrull?....... Uh.... PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ????? Oops, never mind. (just caught up with the rest of the posts. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GestaltBennie Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Didn't someone come up with some supers inspired by the Stooges? I know there was a write-up of Stooge Fu but this was especially inspiring to all Stooge fans. Aaron Allston, in Adventurer's Club #17 . Scott Bennie, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted February 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Originally posted by GestaltBennie Aaron Allston, in Adventurer's Club #17 . Scott Bennie, Thanks, I love your work, incidentally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Well, there's ARGENT See, some new stuff. Kinda. Just ripe for your development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 Instead of Primus, I have an alternative SWORD (stolen from Sam Bell) which is a rather sever organization. Their logo is similar to the Mirror Universe Federation Symbol. (A sword through the Earth). Special Weapons Ordance Research and Development. A little silly, since it had all these ex-Nazi scientists involved. "Bring out the women & children dummies for weapon testing!" I'm doing a bit different theme on it right now, but I'll wait until my players find out before posting what's going on. (Let's just say I've read too much Illuminati and Lovecraft. Probably played too much Paranoia as well) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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