Superskradaptomimic

[transmetahuman]

I was thinking the other day about how each of Marvel's Big Three teams have had their own verson of a nemesis who combines everyone's powers - The FF had the Super-Skrull to deal with; the X-Men fought (and enlisted, briefly) the Mimic; The Avengers had the robotic Super-Adaptoid. I can't think of an equivalent for the Defenders, JLA, LSH, Teen Titans, etc... but given the frequency (and presumed popularity) of appearances of these guys, I wouldn't be suprised if other teams had their own versions.

 

Have any of your teams faced someone like this? Or would that be too many points to throw at them? Not a Rogue character who emulates a power or two at a time, but someone who can do everything any member of the team can do, at least in terms of powers.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

I was thinking the other day about how each of Marvel's Big Three teams have had their own verson of a nemesis who combines everyone's powers - The FF had the Super-Skrull to deal with; the X-Men fought (and enlisted, briefly) the Mimic; The Avengers had the robotic Super-Adaptoid. I can't think of an equivalent for the Defenders, JLA, LSH, Teen Titans, etc... but given the frequency (and presumed popularity) of appearances of these guys, I wouldn't be suprised if other teams had their own versions.

 

Have any of your teams faced someone like this? Or would that be too many points to throw at them? Not a Rogue character who emulates a power or two at a time, but someone who can do everything any member of the team can do, at least in terms of powers.

 

For the JLA it was the android Amazo.

 

There was also the Composite-Superman who had the combined powers of the LSH, but was a 20th century villain who fought Supeman and Batman.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

I've been playing around with someone who can create the counter-abilities of his targets ...

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

As much as I love those guys, especially the Super-Skrull, we haven't yet run into it in a Champions game. I've considered it as a character basis, and probably will play a version in a villain game at some point.

 

If they're set to have the same powers as the PC's, I don't see how it would be overwhelming in most instances. A superteam should be able to gang up on the offender pretty well. I mean, superteams often fight master villains that are *more* powerful in each area than they are individually, so fighting someone who's only *as* powerful might even seem like a welcome break.

 

As a GM, I never really felt it was the right time to do something like that. Some powers I just didn't feel right duplicating within the same reality - I don't mind other-reality evil "clones" though, as it's not really the same power at that point, IMO. (Hmm, may have to do an extra-dimensional Amazo type next campaign - absorbed powers of other world's team, now has come for this worlds'). It just didn't feel right for the whatsis to absorb the power of *THE* thunderbolts of Zeus, *THE* Dragonforce, etc. Gamma-induced strength, fine. Was never fond of absorbing technology based powers either. All personal biases.

 

Also, it's much easier for a writer to pull this off than a GM. The writers have the luxury of knowing in advance which heroes will show up, while sometimes missing players can throw major curves to the GM's plans. A sometimes rotating pool of players and characters can make planning & writing up the villain more challenging, and IMO would also lessen the visceral impact. "He's got PowerDude's abilities too? What do you do again?" is a lot less frightening than the JLA, who've been together for awhile, realize that Amazo has Flash's speed, GL's ring powers, etc. etc.

 

I think an easier way to introduce such a villain into a campaign where the stable of heroes may be less than perfectly stable would be to base the villain's powers off of a villain team instead. Have the heroes face villain team X several times - Eurostar, for example. Then introduce the Eurodroid that has all of Eurostar's powers combined. They'll take notice. Could also be a fun reverse-engineering project - decide what powers you want the combo-villain to end up with, then design a villain team with those powers for it to later absorb/steal.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

Didn't the JLA also encounter an android called "Super-Duper?" IIRC it combined Wonder Woman, Batman, Hawkman, the Flash and Green Lantern, including costume/ body parts of all those heroes. It was a little disturbing seeing Wonder Woman's head on a male body - maybe why that character hasn't been brought back in a few decades.

 

There's also a character very much in that tradition in the Mutants and Masterminds supplement Freedom City: "Argo, the Ultimate Android," with all the abilities of the Freedom League.

 

I've never actually used the concept myself. To me the difficult part is making the composite character itself interesting as a recurring villain. It's too easy to treat it as just a gimmick - facing the PCs with themselves - and that gets tired quickly without more depth.

[Kirby]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

I believe the LoSH had BION who had all (or most) of their powers. In a San Fran game I ran, Dr. Destroyer's son created a BION using the most powerful attacks from each team member. Their saving grace (aside from it being a test robot) was that one team member was the 'hidden member' from the press and had invisibility to electronics, so there weren't any recordings of him (and generally no reliable eyewitness reports).

[Kirby]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

I don't know if he'd be classified as a Super Skrull or Amazo, but Lobo for the Justice League was a type of match. He could absorb Green Lantern power and go toe to toe with the heavy weights.

[Superskrull]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

I don't know if he'd be classified as a Super Skrull or Amazo' date=' but Lobo for the Justice League was a type of match. He could absorb Green Lantern power and go toe to toe with the heavy weights.[/quote']

 

Nah, Lobo doesn't have absorption powers, he's a psycho brick of roughly Kryptonian class strength and durability who enjoys favored status by his creator, so that he can dish the beatdown even when it makes no real sense. When written by others he is not so mighty, such as having his clock cleaned by Captain Marvel or the painfully stupid defeat by Wolverine he suffered off panel due to reader votes on the way the fight was to go.

 

He does have a truckload of willpower so he would be able to directly contest G'nort's power-ring effects such as when he encountered the JLI in the late 80's.

[Superskrull]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

As much as I love those guys, especially the Super-Skrull, we haven't yet run into it in a Champions game. I've considered it as a character basis, and probably will play a version in a villain game at some point.

 

If they're set to have the same powers as the PC's, I don't see how it would be overwhelming in most instances. A superteam should be able to gang up on the offender pretty well. I mean, superteams often fight master villains that are *more* powerful in each area than they are individually, so fighting someone who's only *as* powerful might even seem like a welcome break.

 

Well, consider the effects in Hero of a character with the Dex/Spd of the fastest guy in the group, the Str of the strongest guy and the Kung Fu of the martial artist. Should there also be a character who has a focus that deals mighty HA or HKA damage, that stacks in quite well also. If there's Stretching, add that in too.

 

Look at the Champions for example.

Chimera-Man attacks the Champions and assimilates their aggregate abilities.

Now he's got Str 60, Kung Fu with 4 DCs and a 2d HA. That's like 20d6. Worse if the GM's mean and layers in Defender's battlesuit bonuses. Bad enough that he's already as tough as Ironclad and wearing two flavors of forcefield. Heck, depending on how you wrote him up, he may be strolling around with multiple Multipowers and multiple power attack you with a Flash attack pellet, two 12d EBs and a 9d EB chaser.

 

Could get rough there.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

Every campaign should have its Amazo...

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

Well, consider the effects in Hero of a character with the Dex/Spd of the fastest guy in the group, the Str of the strongest guy and the Kung Fu of the martial artist. Should there also be a character who has a focus that deals mighty HA or HKA damage, that stacks in quite well also. If there's Stretching, add that in too.

 

Look at the Champions for example.

Chimera-Man attacks the Champions and assimilates their aggregate abilities.

Now he's got Str 60, Kung Fu with 4 DCs and a 2d HA. That's like 20d6. Worse if the GM's mean and layers in Defender's battlesuit bonuses. Bad enough that he's already as tough as Ironclad and wearing two flavors of forcefield. Heck, depending on how you wrote him up, he may be strolling around with multiple Multipowers and multiple power attack you with a Flash attack pellet, two 12d EBs and a 9d EB chaser.

 

Could get rough there.

 

Yeah, but that's almost asking the players to have Ironclad put on Nightwing's armored costume, climb into Defender's battlesuit (somewhat modified), and strap on Nightwing's utility belt to fight him. Or anyone else they feel is tough. Heck, have Defender spend some XP to use the +5/doubling focus bit to equip the whole team with battlesuits. Slippery slope I'd rather not start setting precedents for.

 

And another reason I generally don't like duplicating item-based powers.

[assault]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

I've never actually used the concept myself. To me the difficult part is making the composite character itself interesting as a recurring villain. It's too easy to treat it as just a gimmick - facing the PCs with themselves - and that gets tired quickly without more depth.

 

I think it works best as part of a bigger threat. For example, Amazo was created by Professor Ivo, while the Super-Skrull was created by the Skrulls. Incidentally, that means that you can give them allies, if they aren't quite tough enough to trash the whole PC group by themselves.

 

I must admit that I have a Silver Age setting on the drawing boards at the moment, and a Super-Skrull homage is definitely on the list. Then again, I could always use an Amazo homage instead, associated with my recurring Mad Scientist... Hmm...

 

I'm also considering an "evil counterparts of the PCs" team. And a mind controller... I have a nasty feeling the PCs might end up fighting "themselves" a whole lot.

 

Then again, that would be a good lazy way of designing a campaign, wouldn't it? You wouldn't really have to write up many characters of your own.

 

Mix it up with lots of soap opera, and nobody would notice...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

Well, consider the effects in Hero of a character with the Dex/Spd of the fastest guy in the group, the Str of the strongest guy and the Kung Fu of the martial artist. Should there also be a character who has a focus that deals mighty HA or HKA damage, that stacks in quite well also. If there's Stretching, add that in too.

 

Look at the Champions for example.

Chimera-Man attacks the Champions and assimilates their aggregate abilities.

Now he's got Str 60, Kung Fu with 4 DCs and a 2d HA. That's like 20d6. Worse if the GM's mean and layers in Defender's battlesuit bonuses. Bad enough that he's already as tough as Ironclad and wearing two flavors of forcefield. Heck, depending on how you wrote him up, he may be strolling around with multiple Multipowers and multiple power attack you with a Flash attack pellet, two 12d EBs and a 9d EB chaser.

 

Could get rough there.

There'd be plenty of ways to control excessive power in such a scenario, such as only allowing the "adaptoid" to emulate one version of any Power. Don't allow emulating of Skills at all; only Powers and Characteristics. (That might actually be an interesting way to force the PCs to use their Skills to beat the android). Make certain the android also absorbs all the team's weaknesses (Susceptibilities and Vulnerabilities). Most characters are well aware of their weaknesses.

 

As for PCs who aren't there, that's easy: Make the android only have the Powers of the characters that actually show up and he gets time to scan. In the first Amazo episode of Justice League, Amazo gained the powers of each hero only as he encountered that hero. (The JL even tried to keep Superman away, figuring Amazo would become unbeatable if he absorbed Supes' powers too.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

There'd be plenty of ways to control excessive power in such a scenario' date=' such as only allowing the "adaptoid" to emulate one version of any Power. Don't allow emulating of Skills at all; only Powers and Characteristics. (That might actually be an interesting way to force the PCs to use their Skills to beat the android). Make certain the android also absorbs all the team's weaknesses (Susceptibilities and Vulnerabilities). Most characters are well aware of their weaknesses.[/quote']

 

I've used a similar structure (and a scenario borrowed largely from Amazo's first comic book appearance). Adaptron had large Multipower slots, one for each PC's abilities, however he could only access two at a time. As well, he only got the best of any one ability (eg. mimicing two Bricks provided only the best STR of the two). Most importantly, he only got the highest Speed he was emulating. This is pulled from SuperAdaptoid, who shorted out if he tried to use too many abilities at once.

 

[Treb, I'm picturing a character with Z'lf's DEX and Speed and a Brick level of defenses and STR, and quaking - you may want to steer your felow GM's away from this thread! ]

 

Absorption of weaknesses is an important issue for these types of characters - and there's no reason the opponent even needs to be aware of these weaknesses - would the PC have known if he had just obtained his powers?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

Treb' date=' I'm picturing a character with Z'lf's DEX and Speed and a Brick level of defenses and STR, and quaking - you may want to steer your felow GM's away from this thread! [/quote']Yeah, a villain who combined Zl'f's SPD and DEX, our brick's Desolidification, defenses and strength, our primary EB's lightning blasts and FF, our mentalist's 95 point VPP, and our magician's bag of tricks would be pretty much unstoppable. And we haven't even used all the team members yet!

[Hermit]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

Mmm, I really do need to create a Superskrull type for my own Fab 4.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

I actually had two of these in my campaign. The first one was very much a Super-Skrull type who was an alien that had the powers of a Group called Factor Five (a first family/fantastic four style group.) The hook was that he succeeded. He killed them and then his race didn't want this unstable freak back and he was stranded on earth.

 

The second one was The Composite Man who was more like Amazo/Super-Adaptoid. He adapted the powers of my team and then fought them on a number of occassions.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

Chimera-Man attacks the Champions...

Oh' date=' oh, OH... I can't believe no writer has used that name for one of these guys before! That's [i']perfect[/i]!

Don't allow emulating of Skills at all; only Powers and Characteristics. (That might actually be an interesting way to force the PCs to use their Skills to beat the android).

That's exactly what I was thinking. Depends on team composition, though. Too many Martial Artists, Magic Skill VPPs, etc. and you lose the whole "facing the combined team" concept since too many characters' whole schticks are left out of the mix.

Make certain the android also absorbs all the team's weaknesses (Susceptibilities and Vulnerabilities). Most characters are well aware of their weaknesses.

Absorption of weaknesses is an important issue for these types of characters - and there's no reason the opponent even needs to be aware of these weaknesses - would the PC have known if he had just obtained his powers?

Great points. Possibly not psych disads' date=' and definitely not social ones, but "with great power comes great weirdness"!

As for PCs who aren't there, that's easy: Make the android only have the Powers of the characters that actually show up and he gets time to scan. In the first Amazo episode of Justice League, Amazo gained the powers of each hero only as he encountered that hero. (The JL even tried to keep Superman away, figuring Amazo would become unbeatable if he absorbed Supes' powers too.)

Interesting dynamics for teams with very disparate point totals, or if there are powerhouse non-team NPCs that need to be persuaded to stay out of range. The disparate point total PC is particularly important if the Chimera (oooh I love that name!) has more of an agenda than just beating on the PC team - "Stay away! If he gets your powers, no civilian in the city will be safe!" That'd apply even without the disparity, come to think of it... any PC whose powers would be particularly useful to the Chimera's goal might feel pressure to keep out of the fight.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

Well, consider the effects in Hero of a character with the Dex/Spd of the fastest guy in the group, the Str of the strongest guy and the Kung Fu of the martial artist. Should there also be a character who has a focus that deals mighty HA or HKA damage, that stacks in quite well also. If there's Stretching, add that in too.

 

Could get rough there.

 

Exactly. The Adaptoid, Amazo and Super-Skrull were all nasty foes. The only real advantage the Heroes have is that it's one target vs a group.

 

And btw Good to see you SS.

[Kirby]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

Chimera-Man attacks....

I agree with Transmetahuman that this name needs to be used. In fact, since the Chimera was three animal heads on one body, perhaps Chimera man can only keep three powers at once, or only copy three supers at once. Which works well in my FtF campaign since I only have three PCs (There are a few NPC teammates, but still).

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

I'm also considering an "evil counterparts of the PCs" team. And a mind controller... I have a nasty feeling the PCs might end up fighting "themselves" a whole lot.

 

Then again, that would be a good lazy way of designing a campaign, wouldn't it? You wouldn't really have to write up many characters of your own.

 

No, but its a great way to showcase your players. The Evil Anti-Matter Them (or whathaveyou) is of course a genre standby.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

As for PCs who aren't there' date=' that's easy: Make the android only have the Powers of the characters that actually show up and he gets time to scan. In the first Amazo episode of Justice League, Amazo gained the powers of each hero only as he encountered that hero. (The JL even tried to keep Superman away, figuring Amazo would become unbeatable if he absorbed Supes' powers too.)[/quote']

 

 

Did you see the issue of JLA where they beat Amazo through Superman's use of his right, as League Chairman, to dissolve the league? He's a robot... the programming in his OS specified he adapted the powers of the Justice League members.

 

So... no League, no members, and therefore no powers.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

I could always use an Amazo homage instead' date=' associated with my recurring Mad Scientist... Hmm...[/quote']

 

Just be sure to skip the cheesy 70's disco look *G*

 

I'm also considering an "evil counterparts of the PCs" team. And a mind controller... I have a nasty feeling the PCs might end up fighting "themselves" a whole lot.

 

This is always a good idea. The Crime Syndicate of the World angle is always a good idea. Have the evil parallel earth versions show up and use the heroes powers in the most ruthless way possible. If you have a density controller have them do a lethal version of Vision's hand-in-your-guts maneuver, etc.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

I must admit that I have a Silver Age setting on the drawing boards at the moment, and a Super-Skrull homage is definitely on the list. Then again, I could always use an Amazo homage instead, associated with my recurring Mad Scientist... Hmm...

 

I'm also considering an "evil counterparts of the PCs" team. And a mind controller... I have a nasty feeling the PCs might end up fighting "themselves" a whole lot.

 

Then again, that would be a good lazy way of designing a campaign, wouldn't it? You wouldn't really have to write up many characters of your own.

 

Mix it up with lots of soap opera, and nobody would notice...

Hehehe... I have this movie in my mind about some uber-munchkin player of yours, to whom you hint or let slip that your campaign is going to be mostly the characters fighting themselves... whereupon he presents his character writeup, coming in at ten points...

[Superskrull]

Re: Superskradaptomimic

 

I agree with Transmetahuman that this name needs to be used. In fact' date=' since the Chimera was three animal heads on one body, perhaps Chimera man can only keep three powers at once, or only copy three supers at once. Which works well in my FtF campaign since I only have three PCs (There are a few NPC teammates, but still).[/quote']

 

If you guys like it, take it. I just thought it'd sound better than Conglomo the Living Compound so I used it.

 

It occurs to me that the Doom Patrol's compund foe was particularly wierd, being the Animal-Vegetable-Mineral Man.