My D&D 3e Arcane Magic Conversion

[Hierax]

Hit Dice instead of Hit Points for BODY Conversion

 

I've come up with an alternate method.

 

The most significant change has been in how I calculate BODY -- for xD&D I'm now basing it on Hit Dice instead of Hit Points:

 

I use *Hit Dice* instead of *Hit Points* to reflect the get-what-you-pay-for approach of the HERO system instead of carrying over xD&D's roll-the-dice-and-see-what-you-get. Essentially HP are derived from HD so I thought why not just convert it at the root instead of the branch?

 

To summarize, essentially*, the new conversion for BODY is 10+ HD (for d10s but modified by the type of Hit Dice if different):

 

FT: d10=100% ~ +1/1 BODY/LEVEL, +2/1 STUN/LEVEL* [100% = 100%].

 

CL: d8= 80% ~ +3/4 BODY/LEVEL, +3/2 STUN/LEVEL* [80% -> 75%].

 

TH: d6= 60% ~ +1/2 BODY/LEVEL, +1/1 STUN/LEVEL* [60% -> 50%].

 

MU: d4= 40% ~ +1/4 BODY/LEVEL, +1/2 STUN/LEVEL* [40% -> 25%].

 

N.B. For character classes, STUN increases largely at the same rate as BODY but since STUN is Figured from BODY it increases twice as fast (which makes sense as STUN costs 1/2 as much as BODY); if you don't include the figured, then the STUN Bonus per level is the same as the BODY Bonus.

 

* But not exactly, e.g., Classes with a d8 for HP use 9 BODY as the Base Point as (when you run the numbers out) it gives a more accurate conversion overall.

 

This gives a 20th level Fighter 30 BODY which is the ACM ( http://www.hierax.com/hero/house/acm.txt ) for humans IMCs, and 20 BODY for 10th Level (~ Name Level ~ NCM) and it scales the others classes down from there.

 

The reason for the percentage change is that HERO is based on a 1/1, 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 scale and xD&D is based on the types of dice available -- I adjusted the scale to fit the specific system harmonics and to emphasize a greater range between the combat and non-combat oriented characters and creatures. Not to mention the fact that the conversion is even closer if you consider the old basic D&D days when Fighters had d8, clerics d6 (6/8=75%), and theives d4 (4/8=50%)!

 

Monsters HD but as most appropriate class, just because most monsters were given d8 HD doesn't mean that is how they should be converted (IMO). E.G. tough combat-oriented count as Fighter weaker spell-oriented count as Magic-User, in between for others. Keep in mind old D&D Fighters had the same d8 for HP as did the monsters, d10 for fighers came with AD&D but monsters stayed at d8.

 

E.G., Ogre is a 4+1 Hit Dice Creature which is very fighter or Barbarian like, so it gets 14 BODY (10+4) as a base before growth (16 with 4th ed. Growth). (the +x of the HD of a monster I apply as an extra bonus to the STUN)

 

The rationale behind this change from the generally accepted HP -> BODY is:

 

HERO is a pay-for-what-you-get system and xD&D is a roll-and-see-what-you-get system, so since HP are based on HD it makes more sense to base BODY on HD since HD are what the class is essentially and intentionally 'paying' for, if you follow what I mean.

 

As a bonus, by linking HD to BODY we also get to use the effect of xD&D level/HD which is significant for what some types of magic affect and can simulate this with a Transform in HERO -- the greater the Transform, the more BODY can be affected which simulates the more magic the more HD or levels that can be affected.

 

Oh yeah, for a lot of the 0-level or less than 1 HD creatures I use BODY = HP to make the range of BODY and the contrast between tough and weak greater for dramatic effect and for speeding combat vs. lowly minions.

 

I've found that HD -> BODY works better for my purposes than HP->BODY, YMMV, but I wanted to present an alternative for discussion, particularly considering how big of a shift the 3e HP are while the 3e HD aren't that much different.

[Killer Shrike]

Hey Jason...Hows the weather in Canada?

 

Thats an interesting take; Ive played around with something similar before.

 

What I looked at was:

Base 8 Body

 

{d20 = 3 Body per 2 levels}

*************************************

d12 = 1 Body per level

d10 = 2 Body per 3 levels

d8 = 1 Body per 2 levels

d6 = 1 Body per 3 levels

d4 = 1 Body per 4 levels

 

Thus, a 20th level Barbarian will have 28 Body, a 20th level Fighter would have 20 Body, a 20th level Cleric would have 18 Body, a 20th level Rogue would have 14 Body, and a 20th level Wizard would have 13 Body.

 

Another thing that puts me off about this approach is that it doesnt take a characters CON bonus into account, and it is highly uniform, promoting an element of sameness for a characters of the same HD at the same level.

 

Its also difficult to calculate for Multiclass characters.

 

It does have much to recommend it however; it does as you point out tie the 'bought' Body stat to a class & level feature. Its consistent. Its semi-formulaic vice purely chart based. Its directly scaled.

 

BTW, you may have mentioned and I just missed it, but how do you suggest calcing d12's?

[Hierax]

Answers to Killer Shrikes Queries on Hierax's HD to BODY Conversion

 

Hey, Ed!

 

Was about 23 degrees here yesterday, what's that about 80ish in Yank tempurature?

 

CON

 

xD&D only has HP, HERO splits the concept into BODY and STUN. The CON bonus to HP is simulated in HERO by in the STUN figuring.

 

 

d10 = 10 BODY +1/Level Baseline

 

I used ever-present "0-level fighter" in AD&D as a baseline and I compared that to the "Normal" in HERO which had 10 BODY (Fighter d10 = 10 BODY +1/level x0 levels).

 

Then I scaled the leveled class characters up from there until the maximum level reached the Absolute Characteristic Maximum of 30 so that BODY would match the other primary characteristics.

 

Another concern was granularity of class/levels, i.e., I wanted to make sure (as much as possible) that each level when converted counted for something; a 2nd level Fighter has more HP than a 1st level Fighter and if BODY is converted HP, then a 2nd level Fighter should have more BODY as well.

 

 

Uniformity

 

I don't think that Uniformity is a problem.

 

In part because of the granularity every-level-counts aspect mentioned above.

 

Also, more generally, there has to be some give and take somewhere because the scales of xD&D and HERO are so different; Converting xD&D HP into HERO BODY points is naturally going to give you more uniformity because you have to collapse large numbers into small numbers. And this will happen wether you convert using HD or HP.

 

I can see if you stick strictly to the conversion and don't buy the amount up or down afterwards it might be perceived as a problem. The thing is in HERO you get a low value (or a high one) because you want it to, not because the dice randomly gave it to you.

 

And in some cases you won't want to buy it up or down, because the uniformity is what you'll want to ensure that the characteristics of the characters converted represent the abilities of the originals relative to each other. Back to each level counting.

 

 

D12

 

d12s are really only used for Barbarians which are originally conceived of as a sub-class of the Fighter so instead I'm giving Barbarians 25% Damage Reduction in addition to d10 equivalent HD. Depending how you look at it, it gives either a 25% or 33% increase above that of fighters. Considering that Barbarians won't have the rPD protection that Fighters with heavy armor do, the extra bit isn't really a problem because it compensates for the different way HERO handles damage compared to D&D.

 

Basically, either I had to reduce the amount that d10 gave so that d12s would be the peg point for the ACM of 30 (but this would lose the every-level-counts aspect for the most common class - fighters) or I had to give barbaric fighters some other ability to represent how tough they were at soaking up damage. I went with the later largely because barbarians are rarer and Fighters are the baseline common denominator class.

 

Multi-Classing

 

Multi-Classing is easy. It's more like 3e than 2e, if you will. You just add the bonuses.

 

 

Overall

 

Overall, I prefer this approach because it is sticks to the get-what-you-pay-for approach of HERO, and it gives something for each level (as much as is possible), and it provides a formula (but can be a table for those who prefer).

 

I tried with the HP conversion method which looked really good at first, but as I got more and more into it and ran test conversions on characters from the modules of yore and the generic folks from the encounter tables, it became clear that there had to be a better way to convert xD&D HP to HERO BODY that was consistant across both AD&D and 3e with a single conversion system and Hit Dice was the Rosetta Stone that I was looking for. If it hadn't been for 3e scewing the old HP conversion up I likely would have stuck with the HP conversion.

 

Anyway, I've gotta get to work, but hopefully this clears up a few things...

[Killer Shrike]

Thats cool. 1 side point; in 5th Edition a normal person has 8's in thier Primarys rather than 10's.

 

Also, is the Damage Reduction for Barbs resistant?

 

As another side note, I did a loose conversion of Barbs already on a thread from a while back:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3134

(scroll down a bit on the 1st page)

 

I handle the Barbs "Damage Reduction" class ability as Damage Resistance.

[Hierax]

Further Answers to Shrike Queries

 

Yeah, in HERO an "Average Normal" has 8's, I was referring to a "Noteworthy Normal" with 10's. The Avg/8 guy is more of the non-combatant sort while the Note/10 guy is the militia/guard.

 

In fact, the vast majority of the normal folk from xD&D have HP lower than 8, as per the old DMG:

 

Sedentary Females: 1-3

Sedentary Males: 1-4

Active Females: 1-4

Active Males: 2-5

Labouring Females: 2-5

Labouring Males: 2-7

 

FWIW, I'm finding that converting the 0-level non-combatant folk on more of a 1 HP = 1 BODY basis gives the adventurer class people a significant advantage over the townsfolk without having to inflate the character's stats; it's very much in the spirit of "mowing down mooks/minions" it makes a lot of these 0-leveled non-combatants into "one-hit wonders" (and by using real numbers it gets around the hand-waving method in Ninja Hero's "Army of One" but gives the same desired result). FWIW, I'm not going to bother convert the leveled commoners who have lotsa HP and BAB from 3e as I think the whole idea is ridiculous and old AD&D (and Hackmaster) have it better than 3e with making a distinction that lets the leveled PCs be special (but that's an aside).

 

Damage Reduction for Barbarians, IMC, indeed is Resistant as most damage that Barbarians face is of the Killing variety.

 

Also, I agree with your conversion of what D&D 3e calls "Damage Reduction" as being "Damage Resistance" in HERO and am using that for Barbarians IMC as well.

[Guest zarglif69]

man, if you want to play D&D, go ahead and PLAY D&D. why use the Hero system to do it? you're eliminating the flexibility of the Hero system, one of its greatest advantages. I mean, in the D&D system, you can't invent your own spells, because they don't have Powers in it, only spells. You can do that in the Hero system!!! D&D SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! HERO RULES!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hierax]

Zarglif, I think you misunderstand us.

 

man, if you want to play D&D, go ahead and PLAY D&D. why use the Hero system to do it?

 

By this logic, one could say: if you want comic book super heroes why use the HERO system, just read the comics; If you like Wuxia films why use the HERO system, just watch the movies; If you like Lord of the Rings why use the HERO system, don't dare convert it, just read the books.

 

The fact that we want to convert FROM D&D should tell you that we think that HERO does things better.

 

I'm not out to play D&D with HERO, I'm out to play the World of Greyhawk Setting using the HERO System Rules. To do this I have to convert the source material (which just happens to be from the xD&D game) to the HERO System as I would if I were adapting any other setting.

 

If I was talking about using the HERO System to run a Hyborian or a Middle Earth game here then would you be telling me that I shouldn't bother looking at the source material and how it could best be represented using the HERO System?

 

Just because the source material comes from D&D isn't a reason to malign a conversion.

 

If you don't like the source material then you won't like a conversion of it.

 

But if you are saying that you don't like any conversions of anything, then you're going to have a lotta problems with a lot of the HERO fans as well since most of them are trying to convert stuff on one level or another be it from comics, movies, novels, or whathaveyou.

 

 

you're eliminating the flexibility of the Hero system, one of its greatest advantages.

 

Wrong. The reason to convert is to add the flexibility not to eliminate it. D&D is a good game, IMO, HERO is a better game (largely because it is more flexible), so why not take the good parts of D&D and add them to the good parts of HERO to get a better game. Isn't that a good reason to convert?

 

The Conversion helps bring people from D&D and carry them from what they already know into showing them what else they can do with HERO that they couldn't do with D&D. Conversion is a starting point, not an ending point. It is not about stifling creativity and flexibility, but rather giving a starting point to enable it to spring from.

 

I mean, in the D&D system, you can't invent your own spells, because they don't have Powers in it, only spells. You can do that in the Hero system!!!

 

Now, that's just not true either. I've created plenty of spells in xD&D -- it's pretty easy. The advantage of HERO is that it gives you a METASYSTEM to create them rather than arbitrarily making it up. HERO is designed in a way that encourages you to make custom spells and gives you tools to help you balance them. I like that a lot, very useful for modifying and customizing old D&D spells to expand the flexibility of the game.

 

D&D SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! HERO RULES!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Now, that's not a productive line of conversation. I like D&D, I just happen to like HERO a lot more. We can talk about what aspects are worth converting and how to best do it, or which ones aren't worth converting. But SUX isn't a topic of discussion.

 

Anyway, I should be working on more conversion stuff instead of wasting time trying to explain it to those who are against it.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by zarglif69

man, if you want to play D&D, go ahead and PLAY D&D. why use the Hero system to do it? you're eliminating the flexibility of the Hero system, one of its greatest advantages. I mean, in the D&D system, you can't invent your own spells, because they don't have Powers in it, only spells. You can do that in the Hero system!!! D&D SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! HERO RULES!!!!!!!!!!!

This looks like troll spoor, but Ill respond in case it isnt.

 

Who said we wanted to PLAY D&D? Obviously if we are converting FROM D&D to the HERO System it would indicate that WE DONT WANT TO PLAY D&D.

 

In what way are we eliminating the flexibility of the HERO System? Thats the point of converting into the HERO System -- to take advantage of its superior flexibility and its more exacting combat mechanix.

 

Thanx for pointing out how D&D is designed and what I can do in the HERO System. Having played all versions of D&D/AD&D extensively over the last 18 years and having used the HERO System to play almost any particular genre you can name for 13 years I must have missed out on the basic design concepts of both systems.

 

D&D doesnt "SUCK". Its good for what its intended for. Its just not for me.

 

HEROs does rule however, Ill be the first to agree. Thats why Ive pushed it as my main game system for 13 years, bringing dozens of players into contact with it over the years. Its why I did my original AD&D to HERO System Conversion years ago, which was used by me for 4 years of long running campaigns and by other GMs for thier own campaigns.

 

Thanx for your input; your objections to converting material into the HERO System have been duly noted. Of course, thats one of the primary strengths and benefits of the system, but if you dont think its a worthwhile concept its obviously not something you should waste time posting objections to.

[Guest zarglif69]

D&D still sucks, even if you use Hero to play it.

[AnotherSkip]

Actually Zarglif, if you wrote you commentary along the lines of

IMNSHO D&D SUXXXXXX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

Id have to agree with you.

 

D&D _can_ suc.

 

and suck BIIIIIIG.

 

but some of the most menmorable games and characters I have ever had have been in some XD&D games. Including Basic, Expert, Advanced, and 2nd.

 

 

There is one exception, a single HERO campaign with a few characters I played in.

 

The system is largely irrelevant the real point is how everyone treats everyone in the game. That is what makes a game a good game.

 

Actually I have been hankering for a real solid game of Advanced, maybe even bringing them up from Basic and then converting......

 

ahhh the 80's where big hair wasn't a Faux Pax

[Guest zarglif69]

ok... LMNSHO D&D SUXXXXX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that better?

[AnotherSkip]

Seee now ya got it

 

It's an opinion so therefor you are not expressiung it as a fact therefor it is pretty much considered vedddy veddy difficult to disprove or change.

[SuperBlue]

Originally posted by zarglif69

man, if you want to play D&D, go ahead and PLAY D&D. why use the Hero system to do it? you're eliminating the flexibility of the Hero system, one of its greatest advantages. I mean, in the D&D system, you can't invent your own spells, because they don't have Powers in it, only spells. You can do that in the Hero system!!! D&D SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! HERO RULES!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Okay, first of all, you're insulting the Original RPG Game.

 

Second, for those of us who want to use DnD Spells, Magic Items, and Monsters in our Fantasy Campaigns, it's nice to have a big document of stuff already converted.

 

Example 1:

I'm running a Fantasy Campaign, and one of my players wants to play a Ranger from DnD 3e. Instead of going through the Player's Handbook (only DnD Core book I don't own) and manually Convert the Ranger, I can just look at someone else's conversion and let my player take it from there.

 

Example 2:

I'm running a Super Hero game, and one of my characters wants to play a Mystic with a VPP for his magic, but wants DnD style Spells. I just make sure both of us have a copy of those spells (and whatever other spells he wants) so we don't have to waste time converting the DnD spells to hero.

 

Example 3

There's a really cool monster in the DnD Monster Manual that's not in the HERO Bestiary. I want that monster in my campaign, so I convert it.

 

While I do agree that HERO is a better system, I see things like this: D20 System is a pain in the @$$ for anything NOT DnD, but the subject material is still good; If I see anything in the DnD books, I'll 'borrow' those concepts/ideas/items/characters/whatever and incorperate them into my campaign.

 

So don't dis DnD Content just cuz the system is broken, It's still good stuff

[Guest zarglif69]

I still say D&D sucks. Deal with it.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by zarglif69

I still say D&D sucks. Deal with it.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Plonk

[Bazza]

Originally posted by zarglif69

D&D still sucks, even if you use Hero to play it.

Without D&D, there would be no RPG industry, thus no HERO Games thus no hero system. Think about it.

[Guest Worldmaker]

So what do you do for priest spells.

[tkdguy]

Here's a suggestion I posted on the WOTC boards and got flamed for it. I'll change it to HERO terms. Guess I'm a glutton for punishment.

 

My basic premise is that magic is a wild and powerful force. Those who would attempt to harness it pay a heavy price. In HERO terms, the wizard pays extra END or takes STUN whenever casting a spell. In addition, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells are so draining that miscasting the spell (failed magic roll) incurs a side effect (7th level = minor, 8th level = major, 9th level = extreme). One possible effect would be a permanent 3 point reduction in a random Characteristic score, according to cost. The randomness shows the chaotic nature of magic. Another could be immunity to a certain type of magic, but the wizard permanently loses the ability to cast that form of magic.

 

No, I don't hate spellcasters. I'm just making a suggestion as how to make sorcery appear like the dangerous force it's supposed to be.

 

Fighter types need not feel left out. I'm thinking of a particularly nasty way to mess them up when they roll 18 on their attacks.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Worldmaker

So what do you do for priest spells.

 

Same way, but with different limits on thier control costs.

 

The only catch is the Sphere Spells, because they sometimes get access to higher level spells faster (which would require a bigger VPP than appropriate at that level), but thats fixed in most cases by making a version of the spell on fewer points.

 

ALternately, Ive considered handling it using a Talent based system similar to a system of magic in the FH playtest document (just for the sphere spells), but I cant put anything up about it yet because of the Playtest NDA until FH is out on the market.....

 

There are also several cool new Talents that will greatly assist converting Clerics other abilities like Turn Undead.

 

 

Ill probably continue to do Psionicists with Multipowers as that worked out very well in the past. However, the 3e Psionics were altered and are basically just really weak spells, and in fact Psionic were depicted as just a weak form of magic by another name, which is something I was really (REALLY) ticked about. Im not sure whether Ill opt to retain my old coversion of Psionics from 2e as is in favor of its more distinct feel, or go for the completist approach and convert the 3e version anew.

 

Im also tooling up an alternate Nature Magic system, and I have some rough notes for an alternate Bardic Magic system which both behave differently from the standard "Arcane" and "Divine" VPPs, but havent decided if Im going to graft them into a Greyhawk capaign with the D&D->HERO conversion, or use them in a different setting built from scratch.....

[Guest Worldmaker]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

ALternately, Ive considered handling it using a Talent based system similar to a system of magic in the FH playtest document (just for the sphere spells), but I cant put anything up about it yet because of the Playtest NDA until FH is out on the market.....

 

I think I must have missed it... where in the playtest document are these located?

 

 

I have some rough notes for an alternate Bardic Magic system which both behave differently from the standard "Arcane" and "Divine" VPPs, but havent decided if Im going to graft them into a Greyhawk capaign with the D&D-HERO conversion, or use them in a different setting built from scratch.....

 

I'm building them from scratch, with a separate magical "type"... spellsongs aren't really arcane magic, and they're not really divine magic... and I'm basing them on Multipowers.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Worldmaker

I think I must have missed it... where in the playtest document are these located?

Under the Magic section there is discussion of how to do Magic systems using Talents that basically allow mini-VPP's without actually buying VPP's, and/or skill systems where in you buy a skill that allows you to use a specific spell, and several variations in between.

 

Under Talents there is a Turn Undead Talent and some other nifty things that would be useful to Clerics for the purposes of covering some of thier Sphere special abilities.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Worldmaker

I'm building them from scratch, with a separate magical "type"... spellsongs aren't really arcane magic, and they're not really divine magic... and I'm basing them on Multipowers.

Yeah, thats kind of where I was going with it. The tricky part will be balancing variant magic systems against the VPP system of Arcanists and Divine casters.

[tgaptte]

PDF available?

 

Hey KS,

 

This is FANTASTIC material! Are you planning to make it available in PDF format? Sorry if it already is available, I must have missed the link.

 

Thanks.

 

Tim

[Killer Shrike]

Re: PDF available?

 

Originally posted by tgaptte

Hey KS,

 

This is FANTASTIC material! Are you planning to make it available in PDF format? Sorry if it already is available, I must have missed the link.

 

Thanks.

 

Tim

Sorry; I managed to miss your post.

 

Thanx for the compliment! Always good to be appreciated.

 

Having said that, your flattery will get you nowhere. No PDFs for you. 2 years.

 

 

Actually I dont like PDFs. Ill collate the final results into cleanly formatted HTML at some point. My URL lapsed after several years recently and got snatched up by some porno peddler (and I cant imagine why; it was a really abstruse URL). So, at somepoint Ill be buying a new URL and getting a new host, and Ill build my website anew at that time.

 

In the meantime Hierax from these boards is kindly hosting some of my old conversion material. Im supposed to be editing the old pages for placement on his site, but its gotten lost in the deluge of other things I need to do of late

 

Scroll up a few posts and follow a link to his homepage if you are interested in what has been ported over to date from the old AD&D 2e -> HERO 4th Conversion

[slaughterj]

Good stuff, and I agree with the poster above about wanting to get it when it's complete and formatted

 

So I gather this is a 3e FH / 5e Hero conversion of 3e D&D, yes? Any plans for 3.5 D&D? Probably won't be too many spell changes, e.g., Haste, but some of those are probably already "friggin close" enough

[Hierax]

Killer Shrike Conversion URL

 

In the meantime Hierax from these boards is kindly hosting some of my old conversion material. Im supposed to be editing the old pages for placement on his site, but its gotten lost in the deluge of other things I need to do of late

Scroll up a few posts and follow a link to his homepage if you are interested in what has been ported over to date from the old AD&D 2e -> HERO 4th Conversion

Actually, Ed, I hadn't put a link up on my main page as I was waiting for your OK, but I just put one up now and here's the direct link to the page with links to all of the files you've sent me so far:

 

http://www.hierax.com/hero/fantasy/grey/shrike/

 

I'll add links to the other updated files as you send them to me...