Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

[sbarron]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Serious question here: I frequently hear about how "vanilla" the Hero game worlds are compared to others. But is this really true? Is Forgotten Realms really a more interesting concept than Turakian Age? I mean' date=' to me Faerun doesn't offer anything particularly new, groundbreaking, or innovative (just the opposite, actually). [/quote']I don't think Forgotten Realms is really a more interesting concept than Turakian Age. However, I think that is a poor example, given how long Forgotten Realms has been around compared to Turakian Age. Eberron might make for a better comparison. And while Eberron does have some new ideas that Turakian Age lacks, the real difference between the two is style.

 

The Turakian Age is presented like a technical manual. There is no flare, no pizzaz, nothing that makes me go "oh, that is so cool." And art has a lot to do with it. And I don't by the whole color vs. B&W thing. Check out the Inquisitor e-book.

 

http://www.specialist-games.com/inquisitor/assets/lrb/InqLRBpart1.pdf

 

Except for the cover, its all B&W. Even in B&W, the art brings home the bleakness and violence of the setting. And many gamers, myself included, eat that kind of thing up. And the art is constistent. It gives the reader a specific look to associate with the setting. It makes it so much easier to connect with a setting that has consistent art. I don't know that Hero has ever done that in one of their settings. I'd like to see them give it a go...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I know you might not believe this but what I'm talking about has nothing to do with what I like or what you like. It has to do with what will sell versus what will not. For example' date=' I don't care for Ultimate books but I think they sell so DOJ should keep publishing them. Ultimately it's not about what MitchellS or Killer Shrike wants but about what will sell the most for DOJ. Increasing sales are what is important. Without continuing sales none of us will ever get what we want.[/quote']

True. However, the fact is all you really need is the main rulebook. That has always been a problem for the HERO System. You really can run a ton of campaigns in a bunch of genres with the purchase of one book.

 

You dont have to purchase follow on books to play.

 

Further, most games publish some equivalent to splat books that are at least partially aimed at players. Because it isnt rocket science to realize that if you are marketing to gamers the ratio of players to GMs is marked.

 

So basically DOJ is hosed. They are pushing heavy books that are most likely going to be bought by GM's only and they have shown little interest in marketing books aimed at players.

 

So the obvious solution is, publish more books aimed at players right? Mechanic light, content rich, pretty splat books. That's the ticket, right? Works for other games, why not the HERO System? But splat books about what? Splat books are centered on content. They are setting specific, or class specific, or race specific.

 

Which is a problem of course, because the HERO System doesnt have much in the way of a definitive setting, definitive classes, or definitive races. It is a system that is all about defining things like that for yourself. It runs against the grain of what the game is all about to make concrete definitions about things like that.

 

There is also the problem of competition. Even if they define specific settings with concrete races, professions, nations, and history, those settings are going to compete with established settings of similar nature. Is that a competition that they can win? Can they reasonably afford to publish player-oriented material if they don't have a reliable player base to market it to? Even if they can, the HERO System is traditionally a GM-centric game system. The GM is expected (required even) to make a lot of decisions about how the game is run, how things are defined, how they interact. By asserting various decisions in print, DOJ is going to alienate some GM's, and with no GM to run a game there likely arent any players playing it; thus narrowing the supposed target audience of players further.

 

And so on and so forth.

 

Basically, the current approach DOJ takes is to mix the publishing schedule with broad, generic, "ultimate" type products with cross-genre appeal that have a bigger target market and thus hopefully better sales, and narrower setting specific material that hopefully attracts some revenue, and new genre or sub genre settings that will hopefully blossom into a profitable line.

 

Another problem they must be experiencing is their publishing schedule was front loaded with many of the most interesting products with the broadest appeal printed first. They published a lot of big, significant books early on like the main rule book, bestiary, UMA, the core Champions books, and the Star HERO genre book. Since then they've pushed out most of the remaining key books, like Fantasy HERO. What's left? Items that are more and more niche and/or special interest oriented. That is a tough nut to crack.

 

I dont think it is necessarily the best strategy myself, but on the other hand I dont think they can risk their revenue stream by switching gears to pump out a glossy, high flavor, "look at me!!!" setting and support material in the hopes that it will attract a flock of new fans to the game and rocket the company to vast profits.

[Mentor]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Technically' date=' unless they changed it again in 3.5, Greyhawk is still the "default" setting. Forgotten Realms is the published setting and the money maker though.[/quote']

Exactly. D&D was the fantasy RPG system because of its rules and monsters before World of Greyhawk was even published. Note that the kids in ET were playing the game in the movie. Forgotten realms is a relative latecomer to the genre. At the same time as early D&D, we "old timers" were also playing Top Secret, Traveller, as well as Chivalry and Sorcery and then Champions. It is quite logical that Hero would be first and foremost a multigenre system to try and take advantage of the multiple campaigns being played in the 70s and 80s.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

This is going to be a long post, because I want to reply to several points made since the thread began. I hope you'll bear with me.

it seems like no one likes the worlds Hero has developed. Their considered bland and generic among other things.

Believe it or not, I consider this a positive thing, for the most part.

 

I do think that, as a general rule, gamers attracted to the HERO System (and other "universal" systems) tend to be gamers who prefer creating their own material (moreso than gamers who play primarily genre-specific games). In other words, let's say there was a hobby-wide survey, asking such things as...

 

Published Game-Worlds:

1. I don't buy or use them at all.
   
2. I sometimes buy them for inspiration, example, or idea mining, but I never use any large pieces of them without substantial alteration.
   
3. I often buy them; I tend to use a mixture of the published setting and my own original material.
   
4. I usually buy them, and I use them mostly as written, with just a few personal touches here and there.
   
5. I always buy and use a published setting for all my games.

Rules Portability:

1. I always want to use the same rules engine, with as few customizations as possible, regardless of genre or setting.
   
2. I always want to use the same rules engine from genre to genre or setting to setting, but I'm willing to accept some major modifications to parts of the rules engine when deemed desirable for a given genre or setting.
   
3. I always want to use the same rules engine from setting to setting within a genre (perhaps with tweaks as described above), but sometimes might prefer a different rules engine for other genres. For example, I might prefer Dee-Twenty for Fantasy or Modern games in any setting, but not for Sci-Fi games.
   
4. I usually want to use the same rules engine from setting to setting within a genre (but never from genre to genre) and I might prefer a different rules engine for some settings. For example, I might prefer Dee-Twenty for fantasy games as a general rule, but prefer a different rules engine for one specific fantasy setting. And I would not prefer Dee-Twenty for Modern or Sci-Fi games.
   
5. I prefer to use a different rules engine for every setting and every genre.

I think we would find that players who gravitated to the HERO System would tend to score low (closer to 1) on both of those lists. I can't prove this, of course, but that's my suspicion.

 

So. With that being said, I think the types of settings that DoJ is producing are probably the best kind to produce for their target audience. While no one with DoJ has said any such thing to me, I personally view their settings (particularly the single-book settings) as filling something of the same niche for settings that the genre books fill for genres.

 

In other words, I view them primarily as being example settings. They demonstrate how the material in the genre books can be used to develop a setting. They're somewhat vanilla on purpose, because they're meant to be accessible to people. Granted, a GM wanting to run a totally "official" campaign with the Turakian Age book would have to do more of their own legwork than a DM wanting to run a totally "official" Forgotten Realms game.

 

But I don't see that as a failing... I see it as a compromise; a trade-off. Remember, Hero Games throughout the eighties and early nineties developed a sizable player base with no published settings at all. I suspect there are plenty of HERO System devotees who are "1's" on that scale above... they either aren't interested in settings at all, or they buy them only to support the line. For people who are 2's and 3's on that scale, the settings as presented by DoJ are probably useful already. It's for people on the 4 and 5 end of the scale that the utility really starts to suffer.

 

But I don't think there are really that many 4's or 5's interested in playing HERO. And before anyone suggests it, I don't think it's a "cart-before-the-horse" thing. On other words, I don't think 4's and 5's aren't attracted to HERO solely because HERO lacks a setting as detailed and supported as Forgotten Realms. I don't think they'd be likely to be that attracted to HERO anyway.

 

I just don't envision massive number of gamers out there saying to themselves, "Gee, y'know, I'd sure like to convert to the HERO System, because having phenomenal control over the details of how characters interact with the world really appeals to me, as does being able to use the same rules set from genre to genre and setting to setting. But alas, there's no massively detailed pre-packaged setting for HERO that takes most of those choices away from me. Drat!"

Do we use the web to create a Hero-specific but non-generic shared universe for one or more genres?

I truly hate to sound negative, because I share Bill's view of people who just want to whine and don't want to do anything about it, but I have a hard time seeing how this kind of project could be successful.

 

The less "generic" a setting becomes, the more polarizing it becomes. In other words, for a setting to be non-generic, it needs to make decisions, set down assumptions, detail world ground rules, etc. And every time it does this, it increases the number of people who won't like it.

 

For example, let's say there's a ground rule of a fantasy world that all magic requires the use of a magic wand that's specially attuned to its owner. There's nothing wrong with that... it might be the a basis for (or part of) a very well-designed, interesting take on how magic works in a world. But if I don't like the idea -- if it seems too stage-magiciany or Harry Potterish to me -- it will make me less likely to want to use that world as written. If that's the only thing I don't like about it, I might just go along with it in order to use the world "pre-fab." But if there are enough other things I don't like about the world, then eventually I'm either going to not want to run in the world at all, or I'm going to want to change a bunch of stuff.

 

So it's hard for me to envision how a group of people (more than 2 or 3 at most) are going to collaborate on a world setting without making it seem at least moderately "generic." One person's "really cool idea" is the next person's "lame-@$$ idea," so compromise will be inevitable. And the more compromise there is, the more generic it's likely to be.

I think the real question is can Hero Gamers support a fully realized' date=' fully illustrated setting?[/quote']And I think the real answer is clearly, "No." Although I don't have any "insider" info or hard data on DoJ's sales numbers, I think the setting books (especially for Star Hero) have been modest sellers for the most part. Granted, that would presumably improve if the production values and whatnot of the settings improved. But I don't think there's any particular reason to think that the Hero fan base would make a big setting financially viable.

On the other hand' date=' to bring more new players into the game system, I think a fleshed out world with more details would be a great benefit.[/quote']Maybe, though I'm personally dubious. But from a practical standpoint, DoJ can't devote the amount of publishing resources that a fully-detailed world line would require, just on the hopes that it might help bring in new players. It would have to sell (and sell well) to existing players too. And based on the apparent performance of other setting books, I'm not sure it would.

 

Plus, as others have noted, every book they might make that's "just" an expansion supplement further detailing a single setting is another book taking up a slot in the production schedule that they might have used for a book with broader appeal.

I have never used pre-packaged worlds. But the complaint comes up often enough that it may be something worth pursuing -- at the very least' date=' to prove that it isn't necessary.[/quote']The weird thing is, though, at least in my experience, whenever this complaint comes up, it follows a predictable pattern...

 

Person A: "Y'Know, Hero Games should really publish a fully-detailed setting."

Person B: "Yeah. Look how successful Forgotten Realms and World of Darkness are. Hero needs something like that."

Person C: "Yep, I agree. Hero requires GM's to put in a lot of work already. They'd get more players if they had plug-n-play world settings for them."

Person D: "It would be cool, I agree. 'Course, I pretty much make up all my own stuff anyway, so it's not so much for me personally."

Person C: "Me either."

Person B: "Me either."

Person A: "Me either."

(pause)

Person A: "But all those other people... they're all just dying for Hero to make a big campaign setting."

 

Sure the GM might have spent a year building his own campaign world' date=' but that doesn't mean much to most random players. Players want to see, feel, read the back of, and get excited about a setting/game and the best way to do this is to have and hold a source book. To see it in stores, to filp through and get ideas, etc... It is all well and good for a GM to have a three-ring binder full of data, but for players to get psyched they need to be able to see it, buy it, read about it online, take with other players, feel part of a large whole, get ideas, etc... And all of that comes from a great sytem (which Hero has) and a catchy, exciting, and well developed published setting (which it doesn't have (yet)).[/quote']This is a good point, and the best counter-argument to everything I've said thus far, IMO. An in ironic way, the appeal of a detailed setting is not so much to save time or effort for the GM that will run it... it's to put the setting in a format easily accessible to players that will play in it.

Maybe DOJ has tried to do a little too much with all the genre books' date=' but it is their company and their system.[/quote']I think DoJ has the misfortune of having to walk a very fine line between conflicting priorities. On one hand, Champions is what the game is best known for, and has the largest number of devotees. On another, the HERO System really is a universal rules engine, and past incarnations of Hero Games were criticized for not pushing this aspect hard enough. On yet another, past incarnations of Hero Games were also criticized for not sufficiently supporting any genres other than superheroes (with sourcebooks, settings, etc.).

 

If you solely addressed the first factor, you could devote the whole production schedule to superheroics, dropping the whole angle of the HERO System as a multi-genre game, and focussing entirely on making it the best superhero game. If you solely addressed the second factor, you could focus on expanding the line to cover as many genres as possible, as quickly as possible, because most folks will want to see (for example) "Cyberpunk HERO" before deciding to use the HERO System for a cyberpunk game. If you solely addressed the last factor, you might concentrate very thoroughly on deeply supporting every single genre, with many, many support books and settings for each one. Trouble is, though, doing any one of those things alone will cause problems.

 

The first one might make Champions fans happy. But it would cost you all of your fan base who cherishes HERO as a multi-genre game (or prefers HERO for a genre other than supers), and would prevent you from being anything other than a one-trick pony in the RPG world. With all your eggs in one basket, you'd really be at the mercy of the winds of fortune. If supers drops in popularity for some reason, and all you have to sell is supers, you're in big trouble.

 

The second one would make the multi-genre junkies happy, but would probably be suicidal, given the size of the superhero-junkie contingent amongst your fan base. You'd also be subject to the same criticism we're currently hashing out here about lack of setting, only even moreso.

 

The third one might, in an ideal world, be the best long-term way to go. But the problem is that your small RPG company might well not survive long enough to get there. You can't just publish everything you'd like to publish the instant you have the idea. The publication schedule is constrained by time (time to write, time to edit, time to make enough in sales from the previous book to pay for the publication of the next book, etc.), so really detailing a single genre thoroughly before moving on to another genre would take a long time. For example, if DoJ had spent three years putting out nothing but Champions books and setting material before moving on to Fantasy Hero, would there be any Fantasy Hero players left? Or (perhaps even more telling) if they's just spent three years on nothing but Supers, would it be too late to convince the industry that they were still a universal game?

 

So given all these opposing forces, they seem to be trying to steer the middle course. Champions has more support than any other genre; the supers-only players might wish it was more, but at least they're still "first among equals." They're steadily widening the number of genres the HERO System has resources for, even though there are still several genres not fully covered. They're offering more support for each genre than there was in the past, even though it might not be as much as everyone might hope for, or as much as it would get from a single-genre game.

 

As has been said many times before, they can't please everyone.

The question becomes' date=' and this is serious, do you want Hero to be "popular" more then you want it to retain what makes its unique?[/quote']I don't. IMO, the Fuzion fiasco was the result of trying to make Hero more popular at the expense of what made it unique. So not only do I not want them to do so, I don't think it would work, even if they did.

 

You thrive by playing to your strengths... not by downplaying them.

For you Hero's strength is that each genre uses the same rules/constructs. For me that's a curse. Each genre loses its individual flavor because it's using the same rules/constructs.

I don't think genres have any particular flavor (beyond certain elemental tropes that have everything to do with roleplaying and nothing to do with rules). Settings are what can have flavor, IMO.

 

The reason I don't personally want the rules to change too much when going (for example) from supers to fantasy is that -- by doing so -- you're enforcing a certain "feel" to the fantasy. But one fantasy world may feel completely different from another. I'd rather those decisions be made on the individual world/setting/GM level.

 

There's nothing wrong with tweaking the rules to fit the game, but to me, "the game" isn't "Champions" vs. "Fantasy Hero"... it's "The Justice Avengers" vs. "The War of Gods and Men."

I like the fact that Champions had a Shockwave maneuver' date=' for example. It was genre specific and added flavor to a superhero game. Now it's gone in lue of a power.[/quote']It added flavor to a certain style of superhero game. Allowing all characters above a certain STR to do a Shockwave might be very appropriate in one superhero world, and completely inappropriate in another. By having it as part of the rules, you're sort of "building in" that style to the game; you're saying, this is the kind of superhero game you're supposed to want to play.

 

Any individual world or campaign can easily enforce this style by simply choosing to do so. It doesn't have to be hard-coded into the rules. If you want all bricks above a certain STR to be able to shockwave, you just make it a ground rule of your campaign that all bricks above a certain STR get the "Shockwave" power for free.

However' date=' the fact is all you really need is the main rulebook. That has always been a problem for the HERO System. You really can run a ton of campaigns in a bunch of genres with the purchase of one book.[/quote']Yep, I think this is Hero's biggest obstacle; always has been, and probably always will be. Namely, the very strengths that make it a great game, also make it very easy for people not to buy anything else the company publishes. And settings fall third in line on that totem pole (the ones most likely to be skipped).

 

Consider it this way...

 

The core rules are like tools; they allow you to build a bookcase, assuming you know how.

 

The genre books are like "how-to" books; if you already know how to build a bookcase, you don't need a book that explains how to build a bookcase.

 

The setting books are like consumer items; if you already know how to build a bookcase (either because you knew all along, or because you bought a previous book that told you how), then you don't need to buy a pre-made bookcase. You might choose to buy one pre-made for the sake of convenience, but it's far from essential.

 

So from a certain point of view, DoJ trying to sell settings to Hero fans is somewhat akin to trying to sell pre-fab bookcases to a bunch of experienced carpenters.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

The question which started this whole thread was if the lack of supported worlds was hurting Hero sales. My answer has been the same all along: No. What is hurting Hero sales is the company's inability to capture the imaginations of even its core fans with its current worlds. The worlds are not that inspiring and the fans have not embraced them.

Then you missed my entire intial point. Other game systems are perfect for a situation where it is easy to have a well developed world because how limiting of a scope they offer. But because Hero System is an "anything" is possible system, well developed requires much more of an effort.

 

Hero System can't be a be all and end all for a Genre unless they focus on the genre and neglect the flexibility of the system. If they only focused on Fantasy Hero and released nothing but Fantasy Hero books, it may very well begin breaking into WotC sales with the system. But instead because the system is capable of covering any genre, they release books of all natures. And there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Watch the Pulp Genre market. There isn't one. And the nature of a Pulp Hero campaign is very simple. 1930's Earth with a certain feel to it. And having read the Pulp Hero book, it covers everything. It has a timeline and the "CIA Factbook" of the 1930's World. It covers the elements of a Pulp feel, it has a section of how Pulp Authors compose a Pulp story. So because the setting of the Pulp Genre is so limiting and most of the macro elements are covered in the Hero System Genre book, Pulp Hero is going to be the big contender for what systems people use to play a Pulp Campaign.

 

Hero System requires more books than another system to encompass everything and it can't put out those books fast enough. I certainly wouldn't say because it can't build worlds to intrege fans. I can't think of a world setting other than Shadowrun that has ever "captured" me. Greyhawk is vanilla. Forgotten Realms is vanilla. Dragonlance is vanilla/chocholate twist. 7th Sea's setting is vanilla.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

I don't play the HERO System for a setting. I play HERO for the RULES.

 

Personally, I agree 100%. But I think we’re in the minority. (Even if we’re the majority on this forum.) The vast majority of gamers I have known over the years could care less about rules; they’re in it for a fun and interesting setting. So while there’s nothing stopping people from converting other interesting settings to Hero, most gamers aren’t going to bother – they’ve already got the cool setting and don’t see anything to be gained by converting it to a different set of rules.

 

 

Eberron might make for a better comparison. And while Eberron does have some new ideas that Turakian Age lacks' date=' the real difference between the two is [b']style[/b].

The Turakian Age is presented like a technical manual. There is no flare, no pizzaz, nothing that makes me go "oh, that is so cool."

 

Well put! There’s plenty of interesting stuff in the DOJ settings, but they mostly come across as “stat books†in the words of one friend I’ve been trying to lure to Hero. Ask yourself: if (insert name of any DOJ setting book here) was published for another setting, how eager would you be to buy it and convert it to Hero?

 

So the obvious solution is, publish more books aimed at players right? Mechanic light, content rich, pretty splat books. That's the ticket, right? Works for other games, why not the HERO System? But splat books about what? Splat books are centered on content. They are setting specific, or class specific, or race specific.

 

Which is a problem of course, because the HERO System doesnt have much in the way of a definitive setting, definitive classes, or definitive races. It is a system that is all about defining things like that for yourself. It runs against the grain of what the game is all about to make concrete definitions about things like that.

 

But just because they make “concrete definitions†about a particular setting – or even a particular genre – doesn’t mean you can’t still change it if you want to, right?

 

As an analogy: my second favorite game in the universe is Full Thrust, a sci-fi miniatures game. Like Hero, the core rules are fairly simple, generic, and easily adaptable to any setting. There is an “official†setting – called the “Tuffleyverse†by fans, after creator Jon Tuffley – which is original, interesting, and rather detailed (from a wargaming perspective). But the “official†setting is completely optional, and Jon always encourages people to make whatever changes they want to play the game the way they want to.

 

I know I’m comparing apples to oranges here, but why couldn’t DOJ do something similar? Would publishing “splat books†for Terran Empire in any way prevent you from playing SH the way you want to? I mean, these are the guys who dedicated 11 pages of their rulesbook to how to *change* the rules. (One of the things I respect most about DOJ!) My point is I don’t see this as an either-or proposition. Having detailed original world settings doesn’t eliminate flexibility for those who want it, but it provides structure for those who prefer it.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"Well, my days of not taking you serious are certainly coming to a middle."

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

This is going to be a long post' date=' because I want to reply to several points made since the thread began. I hope you'll bear with me. [/quote']

 

Wow, someone even more long-winded than me!

 

So from a certain point of view' date=' DoJ trying to sell settings to Hero fans is somewhat akin to trying to sell pre-fab bookcases to a bunch of experienced carpenters. [/quote']

 

Well put.

 

You make a number of excellent points. (Too many to quote them all.) Perhaps the real question is: does DOJ continue to focus on their core base (experienced carpenters), or try to expand to reach more of the general market. Personally I would prefer the first...if I didn’t have serious doubts about the long-term financial feasibility of focusing on such a small niche market. Presumably, DOJ has done some kind of market research on this, so maybe they know something I don't.

 

And again, I don’t necessarily see it as an all-or-nothing proposition. I buy most of DOJ’s setting books as it is, even though I just use them for inspiration. I doubt very much I would buy fewer of them just because they were *more* inspiring. And even if I didn't like a certain setting or found it too restricitve, that certainly wouldn't "turn me off" of Hero in general or stop me from buying non-setting books.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"See how I'm not hitting him? I think I've grown."

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Derek Hiemforth again.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

But just because they make “concrete definitions†about a particular setting – or even a particular genre – doesn’t mean you can’t still change it if you want to, right?

 

As an analogy: my second favorite game in the universe is Full Thrust, a sci-fi miniatures game. Like Hero, the core rules are fairly simple, generic, and easily adaptable to any setting. There is an “official†setting – called the “Tuffleyverse†by fans, after creator Jon Tuffley – which is original, interesting, and rather detailed (from a wargaming perspective). But the “official†setting is completely optional, and Jon always encourages people to make whatever changes they want to play the game the way they want to.

 

I know I’m comparing apples to oranges here, but why couldn’t DOJ do something similar? Would publishing “splat books†for Terran Empire in any way prevent you from playing SH the way you want to? I mean, these are the guys who dedicated 11 pages of their rulesbook to how to *change* the rules. (One of the things I respect most about DOJ!) My point is I don’t see this as an either-or proposition. Having detailed original world settings doesn’t eliminate flexibility for those who want it, but it provides structure for those who prefer it.

 

Im not familiar with that setting; I bought the book and gave it away because I have zero interest in Sci Fi space games, so Im spitballing here, but lets say they publish a series of splatbooks for Terran Empire.

 

One for each race

One for Psionicists

Several for different identifiable groups.

 

They pay to develop and publish them. Months later they hit the market in a phased progression. Do they fly off the shelves? Unlikely. The demand isn't there. The player base isn't wide enough to support it and DOJ takes a big fat loss, which they are not solvent enough to absorb blithely.

 

 

The assumption seems to be that they can just publish whatever they like on the expectation that they will profit from it. That just isnt the case.

 

 

Personally, and this isn't backed up by anything other than my own experience and opinion, the most constructive thing DOJ has done to widen the player base was to print Sidekick. I saw and/or was contacted by more interested potential players stemming from SK than from any other event or product. I think DOJ could have done more to capitalize on SK by developing a companion line of products geared towards the SK market.

 

Imagine for example these products:

 

Fantasy HERO Sidekick

Composited from parts of Fantasy HERO, the Grimoires, MMM, and Turakian Age this mid sized book is SK oriented, has some newbie friendly genre ideas and equipment charts from FH, enough setting info from TA, antagonists from MMM chosen to challenge starting characters, and spells from the Grimoires to get started playing, priced aggressively at around 15 to 20 bucks.

 

Champions Sidekick

Composited from parts of Champions, Champions Universe, USPD, and CKC this mid sized book is SK oriented, has some newbie friendly genre ideas from Champions (such as a pared down version of the archetypes section), a few antagonists from CKC chosen to challenge starting characters, and some signature powers from the USPD to get started playing, priced aggressively at around 15 to 20 bucks.

 

and so on.

 

Those are the kind of entry level products that will attract new players to the game, in my opinion, and it's something that is currently missing.

 

Consider all the things that are currently required to get involved with the HERO System:

 

Get a humongous rule book.

Maybe get large genre book of high level, abstract concepts.

Maybe get a mid to large setting book

Maybe get a "monster manual" book like MMM or CKC or the bestiary

Maybe get a "cool stuff" book like a Grimoire or the vehicle books

Maybe get one or more topical expansions like the Ultimate books

 

Thats a huge expectation, and it is daunting even to the interested. It's inaccesible and discouraging. On the surface it seems more like taking on a graduate course in roleplaying game design than it does starting to play a game.

 

That in my opinion is the real hurdle of the HERO System, the high cost of ownership and the stiff entry requirements.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

lets say they publish a series of splatbooks for Terran Empire.

They pay to develop and publish them. Months later they hit the market in a phased progression. Do they fly off the shelves? Unlikely. The demand isn't there. The player base isn't wide enough to support it and DOJ takes a big fat loss, which they are not solvent enough to absorb blithely.

 

Fair point. But again we go back to why the settings themselves aren’t popular. And I'm forced to agree with those who feel the problem is that the settings are too generic. TE is more an example of how to make an SH world than an original SH world in its own right.

 

The assumption seems to be that they can just publish whatever they like on the expectation that they will profit from it. That just isnt the case.

 

True, and I didn’t mean to suggest they should throw money at additional material for an already-unpopular setting. My point was that if the settings themselves were more original they might attract more people, who might then go on to buy splat books, the core rules, scenario books, etc. I was sucked into Hero, as I suspect you were, because the rules are so good. But most gamers are sucked into settings and take whatever rules are offered unless they’re just really wretched. (Even Twilight 2000 was quite popular for awhile, and it had IMO some of the worst rules I'd ever seen.)

 

 

Personally' date=' and this isn't backed up by anything other than my own experience and opinion, the most constructive thing DOJ has done to widen the player base was to print Sidekick. [/quote']

 

Agreed!

 

Imagine for example these products:

 

Fantasy HERO Sidekick

 

Champions Sidekick

 

and so on.

 

Those are the kind of entry level products that will attract new players to the game, in my opinion, and it's something that is currently missing.

 

Now that’s an excellent idea! Something that the players can buy, give them enough info to get started, and only the ref needs to make the big investment.

 

bigdamnhero

"Have you ever considered piracy? You'd make a wonderful Dred Pirate Roberts."

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Im not familiar with that setting; I bought the book and gave it away because I have zero interest in Sci Fi space games, so Im spitballing here, but lets say they publish a series of splatbooks for Terran Empire.

 

One for each race

One for Psionicists

Several for different identifiable groups.

 

They pay to develop and publish them. Months later they hit the market in a phased progression. Do they fly off the shelves? Unlikely. The demand isn't there. The player base isn't wide enough to support it and DOJ takes a big fat loss, which they are not solvent enough to absorb blithely.

And this is pretty much where I was going with my initial post.

 

It is a vicious circle. For the supplements to fly off the shelf, it requires you have a strong fan base. To have a strong fan base, you need to have supplements for the player needs.

 

Lets say that there are 10 gamers in a hypothetical market.

 

2 gamers prefer Fantasy.

2 gamers prefer Superhero.

2 gamers prefer Sci-fi / Space.

2 gamers prefer Pulp.

2 gamers prefer Western.

 

Now, Hero Games can, in theory, satisfy the needs of all 10 gamers. But the problem is, other systems appeal more directly to the genre. If a Fantasy Gamer walks into the gaming store and sees two books, one is can do anything and one is designed for fantasy, the fantasy one is going to natively appeal to him more. Especially because all of the fantasy system's supplements support the single genre. Where Hero System's supplements are divided between all five genres.

 

Now, I recognize that not all players like using premade worlds. And like Derek, many people just steal ideas from genre books. I do that all the time myself. I have a Dragonlance book I have never used and likely never will use in a d 20 game. But I'll be very unlikely to sell the book because it has ideas that I like in it. But not everyone is like that. Many people like to have lots of resources that you can just pull off the shelf and use for the game in question rather than develop it yourself. This is most likely why the fan base is so small for Hero. I think of people as naturally lazy. They would rather have the work done for them than go out and do the work themselves.

 

So I think that if there were some very well designed game setting worlds, even if it wasn't something most people would use, for Hero system, it would help dramatically in expanding the fan base.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

An interesting thread, even if it does cover, shall we say, well-trod ground.

 

I like what Hero's done in 5e so far. That said, I sorta wish they'd get Darren to write a second edition of Champions Universe and Millennium City because when I look at work like Hidden Lands and Galactic Champions, I can clearly see how much he's grown as a writer since his early efforts - and those weren't that bad to begin with at all. I think he could really knock them out of the park now.

 

The issue depresses me, because there's a bit of truth to it. I enjoy working with Hero as a toolkit; however the proof of a great toolkit isn't how much fun it is to tinker around with the tools, it's in the quality of the finished product produced by the tools. To play devil's advocate, if Hero is really such a great toolkit, we should be able to build products that are head and shoulders above everyone else in the industry, and frankly we're not. Lack of color illos aside, I'd put the content of books like Alien Wars, Hudson City, Hidden Lands or DEMON up against anything done for M&M or comparable lines, but I also don't think we're really using it to its full potential.

 

I don't agree with anyone who thinks that recent Hero has been staid or too mired in the past. Hidden Lands (except for Atlantis), Villainy Amok, and DCTAS are all unlike anything that's gone before in Hero, and the closest thing the industry's produced to a Teen Champions was SJG's School of Hard Knocks (and a few forgettable X-Men sourcebooks from Marvel). However, there *is* a certain something missing. To use someone else's metaphor, Hero is producing good, dependable vehicles, cars you can drive for years, but the flashy sportscars are being produced elsewhere, even if they aren't as well made. Howver flash has its place in supporting an author's vision and making it really sing (just as sportscars are fun to drive).

 

Steve's got to do what he has to do for the company to survive in a very tight market, and if some people have difficulty understanding that, too bad. However, I do hope there's room for the occasional experiment, the bit of extra glitz, the small risky project that's close to their hearts that they can really pour their passions into - and that when they take that risk, the market will be there to recognize it and support them.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Lets play a game of what if....

 

Lets pretend that there is a fully supported "interesting" Fantasy HERO Setting with glossy pages, full color art by industry names, fluff text galore, and oozing flavor out of every pore. We'll call it The Longian Age.

 

Lets pretend that we have a person that has just gotten in to gaming spontaneously. They aren't prebiased towards D&D or WW or any other particular game by an existing group. We'll call this player Alen Cherry.

 

A. Cherry also has 3 friends who have agreed, due to friendship, to support him in his odd new hobby. They have committed to play at least once a month for 6 months to help him out.

 

A. Cherry walks in to the store knowing only this: he wants to play in a particular genre (we'll say Fantasy), and he want's to walk out of the store with everything he needs to run the game. Money is no object; he is prepared to make an investment in this.

 

Walking into The Game Store, A. Cherry finds his way to the racks and starts browsing. He finds three interesting books:

 

Forgotten Realms

Warhammer FRPG

The Longian Age

 

Question to the forum: Which game does A. Cherry choose and why?

[Guest Soulcatcher]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

All my statements are predicated upon assumptions since I am not privy to any confidential information.

 

Hero Games is, as far as I know, not a big sellar, but a niche sellar. Hero Games has been associated with financial difficulties in the past, perhaps in the present and certainly in the future.

 

It's main market is superheroes and Hero does not appear to have expanded very successfully beyond that.

 

This is the situation it likely finds itself in presently.

 

They are publishing alot of different books which entails significant costs. They hope that expanding the genres that they can get more people interested in the ptoduct line. These books will have up front costs that will cause upfront losses that they will hope to recover through expanded sales to the current audience as well as, hopefully, a new audience. If that strategy does not work then all these new books will make their financial situation deteriorate. We all know where that leads to in the game industry.

 

I will continue this post in a minute after I have switched computers.

[Guest Soulcatcher]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

How to extend the gain system is the key in terms of the audience. to be more successful, they need to expand the number of players were playing their game. The important question is how to do it.

 

I think that a key element to figuring out the proper strategy is to actually find out why people don't play the game. They should try to do some research to find out what it is about Hero games that is a problem for other gamers. The results of such research could give them direction for how to continue expanding the game.

 

There are several impediments to other gamers joining Hero game's:

1) complexity of the rules,

2) totally different approach,

3) the abusability of the game,

4) amount of work required by GM's,

5) amount of work required by players to create a character,

6) the lack of significant change in the character once created,

7) the perception of Hero Games being a superhero game,

8) the lack of consistency from game group to game group,

9) and the lack of sufficient differentiation between genres.

 

Some of you may think that the some of these problems are actually the strengths of the game, but that still doesn't mean that there are not problems with the game in these areas.

 

Each of these areas may need improvement to expand the attraction of the Hero game system, without compromising the core of the system, so as to allow the hero game system to survive and expand.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Question to the forum: Which game does A. Cherry choose and why?

Said player is probably going to choose Forgotten Realms. Why?

 

1- D&D has name recognition and since he's probably going to ask the store clerk for some basic assistance that's the game they will be most likely to recommend as entry level.

 

2- No matter how flashy The Longian Age is 5Er is not flashy whereas the Player's Handbook and Monster Manuel are. One flashy book will not make up for the 3 or 4 non-flashy ones he will need to buy in support.

 

3- When the player looks at the Hero line to play fantasy he is looking to buy 5Er, Fantasy Hero, and the Fantasy Hero Grimoire just to cover the basics [he needs to learn everything]. That's about 1,200 pages of reading [most of it dry and technical]. That's daunting for anyone.

 

4- A universal system is not needed to play fantasy. A dedicated system will have added flavor due to being able to tailor the rules to suit the game's genre needs. Hero's strength of universality is not what this gamer needs.

 

5- The other gamers with this person will also have opinions which this person will ask for. They too will not want to have to learn 1,000 pages of rules just to play a game. They are probably coming from a board or computer game background and really can't imagine reading all the required text just to play a game.

 

There are other reasons but those cover the high points, IMO.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Fantasy HERO Sidekick

Composited from parts of Fantasy HERO, the Grimoires, MMM, and Turakian Age this mid sized book is SK oriented, has some newbie friendly genre ideas and equipment charts from FH, enough setting info from TA, antagonists from MMM chosen to challenge starting characters, and spells from the Grimoires to get started playing, priced aggressively at around 15 to 20 bucks.

 

Champions Sidekick

Composited from parts of Champions, Champions Universe, USPD, and CKC this mid sized book is SK oriented, has some newbie friendly genre ideas from Champions (such as a pared down version of the archetypes section), a few antagonists from CKC chosen to challenge starting characters, and some signature powers from the USPD to get started playing, priced aggressively at around 15 to 20 bucks.

Great ideas! Why can't I ever think of anything like that?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Said player is probably going to choose Forgotten Realms. Why?

 

1- D&D has name recognition and since he's probably going to ask the store clerk for some basic assistance that's the game they will be most likely to recommend as entry level.

 

2- No matter how flashy The Longian Age is 5Er is not flashy whereas the Player's Handbook and Monster Manuel are. One flashy book will not make up for the 3 or 4 non-flashy ones he will need to buy in support.

 

3- When the player looks at the Hero line to play fantasy he is looking to buy 5Er, Fantasy Hero, and the Fantasy Hero Grimoire just to cover the basics [he needs to learn everything]. That's about 1,200 pages of reading [most of it dry and technical]. That's daunting for anyone.

 

4- A universal system is not needed to play fantasy. A dedicated system will have added flavor due to being able to tailor the rules to suit the game's genre needs. Hero's strength of universality is not what this gamer needs.

 

5- The other gamers with this person will also have opinions which this person will ask for. They too will not want to have to learn 1,000 pages of rules just to play a game. They are probably coming from a board or computer game background and really can't imagine reading all the required text just to play a game.

 

There are other reasons but those cover the high points, IMO.

 

 

I basically agree, though I think the new edition of Warhammer might win out thanks to good timing. The glut of material for D&D isn't exactly compact either, and someone trying to explain the concept of d 20 and the OGL will likely glaze poor A. Cherry's eyes over.

 

On the other hand the new edition of Warhammer is very compact since it is very recently released, the main rules and setting are all in one slim book rather than three for 3.5e (DMG, PHB, FR), and it is getting a fair amount of buzz in the stores (at least locally), both from nostalgic old timers like me, younger gamers that find it a refreshing change after the d 20 monsoon, and some crossover wargammers giving roleplaying a stab. It also has the best miniature support as a by product of being a GW game, which might tickle A. Cherry's fancy.

 

 

Either way, it illustrates my point -- even if HERO were to produce the flashy setting that some people seem to think they should, they still lose to dedicated games like D&D and Warhammer.

 

To compete in that fashion, against the strengths of other games would require an entire retooling of their product line at massive expense and at the cost of ignoring their existing target audience. Ill advised in other words.

 

I'd like to hear more peoples opinions on which one A. Cherry would chose, though.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Either way' date=' it illustrates my point -- even if HERO were to produce the flashy setting that some people seem to think they should, they still lose to dedicated games like D&D and Warhammer. [/quote']

Yes, but now change the equation slightly. How many Hero fans and acquaintances [people who have used the system and are familiar with it but have moved on] do you think would pick up The Longian Age that didn't pick up the Turakian or Valdorian Age?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Yes' date=' but now change the equation slightly. How many Hero fans and acquaintances [people who have used the system and are familiar with it but have moved on'] do you think would pick up The Longian Age that didn't pick up the Turakian or Valdorian Age?

Im thinking not enough to matter.

[sbarron]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

How to extend the gain system is the key in terms of the audience. to be more successful' date=' they need to expand the number of players were playing their game. The important question is how to do it.[/quote']Actually, they have to get more people to buy books. The fact that people play them can help in selling books, but it is not HERO's ojective.

[Hierax]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

An individual person could make any of the choices but the vast majority of the population would choose the Forgotten Realms world/setting using the D&D rules.

 

Why?

 

More people play in the Forgotten Realms because of D&D than play D&D because of the Forgotten Realms. They'd say I want to run a new D&D campaign and then find a world, not say I want to run a game in a new world and then find a rule system or use the rule system linked to that world.

 

Try to recruit players for a new D&D game in an world they never heard of. Try to recruit players for a world they already know using another rules system. See which one is more popular.

 

Bottom line, it is way harder to get people to try a new rules system than a new setting/world.

 

A "Fully Developed World" setting for the HERO System would certainly be nice to have because it would be an excellent showcase what the HERO System can do. But it would be a time-consuming and expensive long-shot attempt to attract hordes of new Herophiles.

A Fantasy Hero Sidekick would be a more efficient way to draw new players into the HERO System than yet another Fantasy setting. Once you have them into the HERO System then you can get them to try the new setting.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

To respond to Killer Shrike...

 

I have no idea what A. Cherry might pick to be honest - I almost quit gaming completely ten years ago specifically because of the TSR glut and because I started to hate D&D2E that much. I played in the Forgotten Realms setting for years, almost ten, when I decided to quite. And to be honest one of the main reasons was because everytime a supplement was put out it was so detailed in the FR world if I wanted to use it I had to start altering events in my own games to fit it. Not to mention that fully half the prepackaged adventures that came out came strait from Greenwood's table and you could see it was tailored to his game.

 

It was pure accident that I ran across a 4E book and have stuck with it since.

 

For me the fact that I buy a rule book and am presented with a framework instead of a prebuilt reality is the only reason I'm still gaming and it's all thanks to Champions/Hero.

[sbarron]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Said player is probably going to choose Forgotten Realms. Why?

 

1- D&D has name recognition and since he's probably going to ask the store clerk for some basic assistance that's the game they will be most likely to recommend as entry level.

This one is true, assuming that there is nothing "kewl" enough in the Longian Age to make the store manager take notice. We can't predict whether there will be something about the Longian Age to make the manager notice. I'd recommend not publishing this product if they didn't have a great, unique idea to build around, however.

 

2- No matter how flashy The Longian Age is 5Er is not flashy whereas the Player's Handbook and Monster Manuel are. One flashy book will not make up for the 3 or 4 non-flashy ones he will need to buy in support.

 

3- When the player looks at the Hero line to play fantasy he is looking to buy 5Er, Fantasy Hero, and the Fantasy Hero Grimoire just to cover the basics [he needs to learn everything]. That's about 1,200 pages of reading [most of it dry and technical]. That's daunting for anyone.

With Sidekick, these two aren't true anymore. The Longian Age should contain everything a player needs to play in the setting, excluding the rules which will be found in Sidekick. And the idea of tacking Sidekick in the Longian Age isn't a bad one.

 

How flashy the Longian Age is will be a question. But a more important question will be whether gamers like it. Word of mouth goes a long way in this industry. The total start up costss would be between $35 and $45 (depending on the cost of The Longian Age, and whether Sidekick is attached). And page count wouldn't be more than +/-400 or so, which is Sidekick and Turakian Age combined.

 

4- A universal system is not needed to play fantasy. A dedicated system will have added flavor due to being able to tailor the rules to suit the game's genre needs. Hero's strength of universality is not what this gamer needs.

I think you and I agree that HERO should incorporate some genre specific elements in the Longian Age. In fact, that is likely where the "hook" for the game will be found. Birthright had the Bloodlines, Exalted had demi-god characters, WoD has vampires, etc. The Longian Age needs something that is different than other settings that makes it kewl and memorable; turn the setting into something that players want to play in.

 

5- The other gamers with this person will also have opinions which this person will ask for. They too will not want to have to learn 1,000 pages of rules just to play a game. They are probably coming from a board or computer game background and really can't imagine reading all the required text just to play a game.

 

There are other reasons but those cover the high points, IMO.

Again, I'd point to Sidekick.

 

There are problems to be overcome, for sure. Hero tried this template in the early years, and it didn't work. Maybe it won't work now either. I'd like to see some unique, stylish settings though. And I don't think flashy color art is necessary. But stylish art and setting elements that set the tone for game most definitely are. In fact, they are critical.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Lack of Fully Developed Worlds

 

Lets pretend that we have a person that has just gotten in to gaming spontaneously. They aren't prebiased towards D&D or WW or any other particular game by an existing group. We'll call this player Alen Cherry.

 

Sure, total newbies are almost always going to go for 1) easiest rules, 2) well-established lines, or 3) flashiest packaging. Hero isn't for novices, nor should it try to be. But I'm thinking of the majority of gamers out there, who may have outgrown their current game, are looking for something new, or are at least willing to try something else.

 

Seems to me those are the folks DOJ should be targetting. And yes, I understand that costs money and involves risk. But, art aside, does it really cost more money to publish an interesting, original setting than it does to publish a generic setting? The problem isn't lack of money, and it certainly isn't lack of talent or imagination -- DOJ has plenty of that on staff! As I see it, it's more one of focus and intent.

 

They'd say I want to run a new D&D campaign and then find a world, not say I want to run a game in a new world and then find a rule system or use the rule system linked to that world.

Bottom line, it is way harder to get people to try a new rules system than a new setting/world.

 

Certainly there is resistance to learning a new game system. So yes, those that have players tend to get (and keep) them. If we accept that and stop there, then Hero is doomed in the long run.

 

But if the goal is to draw new players to Hero, then in my experience the easiest way to do that is with an interesting setting -- one which makes it worth the time & effort of learning new rules.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"One swift knee in the happy sacks and it'll go down like anyone else."