Super Prisons without Super Tech

[megaplayboy]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

Generally I think the prison security should be arranged in such a way that it's possible to "fire a warning shot" before the options become more lethal.

 

The general concept of a super-prison, to me, is: how difficult should it be to escape?

The players need to have confidence that the guys they worked so hard to capture will be in there for a while(a year, at least). OTOH, as a GM, you don't want to go to great lengths to create an escape-proof, breakout-proof prison, then wind up with a diminishing pool of available villains to use as your group gets on a hot streak and throws half the villain roster into prison. So you kinda have to split the difference...

[DangerousDan]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

My campaign world hasn't had time to realise any truly impressive technological benefits from the existence of metahumans. I'm looking for ideas on how to contain high-threat metas without the use of drains or force fields or such like.

 

One idea I've been considering is sending them to dreamland. There is a metahuman in my world who is in a permanent coma, but who's powers pull everyone who comes closer than 500 meters to him into his dream world more or less permanently (it takes a mentalist or someone with a monstrously high EGO to escape).

 

Your Dreamland is a perfectly workable idea, as are the pressure tank, sunken submarine, etc. Some very interesting ideas have shown up here. Given the nature of supers, no single prison will do the job. With just the characters that I've created since FRED came out, not one of the suggestions I've seen would hold them all (and that includes the following suggestion).

 

An idea I had while reading these posts: if you have a Super on your side who can create pocket universes (extradimensional travel to dimensions with small dimensions), you can use them as "Cells" in a super prison. This is a prison that will hold anyone, until someone comes along with extradimensional powers... Someone who, for example, picks among the inmates, those who will work for him and ... but that is another adventure.

 

If there are going to be prison breaks, make them work for you.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

An idea I had while reading these posts: if you have a Super on your side who can create pocket universes (extradimensional travel to dimensions with small dimensions), you can use them as "Cells" in a super prison. This is a prison that will hold anyone, until someone comes along with extradimensional powers... Someone who, for example, picks among the inmates, those who will work for him and ... but that is another adventure.

 

If there are going to be prison breaks, make them work for you.

I started a [thread=35721]thread[/thread] about just that, since it definitely falls under "super-tech". It seems like very few people have tried something like this in their games. One potential problem with this, whether it's all one prison, or dimensionally seperate cells; mystically or technologically created: the bottleneck is that the prisoners will still need feeding, water and plumbing, medical care, and (if it's all one prison) protection from each other. That means you'll still need some kind of guards, and will need to periodically re-open whatever entrance is used, and interact with the prisoners.

 

Possible ways around some of this: the pocket world has a much slower rate of time flow (but then it might seem to voters like the prisoners are not receiving enough punishment); multiple entrances, some of which are too small for anything but resupply (or shrinkers...); resupply at unpredictable intervals (but some supers are supernaturally patient)...

 

Bottom line, it'd help, but it still won't work for every metahuman out there. And it sounds expensive as hell to maintain, though every other option does, too.

[Tiree]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

Possible ways around some of this: the pocket world has a much slower rate of time flow (but then it might seem to voters like the prisoners are not receiving enough punishment

 

You actually want the reverse. Have the time speed up. So when they come out in a week, to them seems like 20 years. They will have aged, and everything. I would also link a lifesupport of no need to eat, breathe, or possibly sleep on it too. But make the area a desolate place. This way the super criminal hopefully won't advance technology or design something as payback.

[Zed-F]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

You actually want the reverse. Have the time speed up. So when they come out in a week' date=' to them seems like 20 years. They will have aged, and everything. I would also link a lifesupport of no need to eat, breathe, or possibly sleep on it too. But make the area a desolate place. This way the super criminal hopefully won't advance technology or design something as payback.[/quote']

No, he'll just have had oodles of time to train himself in martial arts, meditate to increase his magical or psionic potential, and just practice being a badass survivor of a hostile environment in general. Your very own Fremen training grounds!

[sinanju]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

I started a [thread=35721]thread[/thread] about just that, since it definitely falls under "super-tech". It seems like very few people have tried something like this in their games. One potential problem with this, whether it's all one prison, or dimensionally seperate cells; mystically or technologically created: the bottleneck is that the prisoners will still need feeding, water and plumbing, medical care, and (if it's all one prison) protection from each other. That means you'll still need some kind of guards, and will need to periodically re-open whatever entrance is used, and interact with the prisoners.

 

Possible ways around some of this: the pocket world has a much slower rate of time flow (but then it might seem to voters like the prisoners are not receiving enough punishment); multiple entrances, some of which are too small for anything but resupply (or shrinkers...); resupply at unpredictable intervals (but some supers are supernaturally patient)...

 

Bottom line, it'd help, but it still won't work for every metahuman out there. And it sounds expensive as hell to maintain, though every other option does, too.

 

Another option I mentioned on another thread somewhere is one-way extradimensional travel. That is, the penalty for convicted supercriminals is exile. This only requires that you open the portal once for each prisoner--and shove him through it. Whether he lives or dies, or becomes a victim of a "Lord of the Flies" environment created by previous prisoners...is not your concern.

 

A possible plot seed based on this is the sudden appearance of new supervillains in your campaign world/city. The cause, of course, is that they're prisoners being exiled to another dimension--yours--from elsewhere. The authorities may or may not know (or care) that they're dumping supervillains on a populated world.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

No' date=' he'll just have had oodles of time to train himself in martial arts, meditate to increase his magical or psionic potential, and just practice being a badass survivor of a hostile environment in general. Your very own Fremen training grounds! [/quote']

 

A cure for this happens to fix some other problems. Drop your villains in an isolated slice of farmland with a "Dummy's guide to farming" (PS:Farmer 8- OAF). He now has to choice to maintain his food supply (a demanding full-time job) or practicing being a badass and starving.

 

It is difficult to keep Prisons from being places to become more badass.

[Dominique]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

Generally I think the prison security should be arranged in such a way that it's possible to "fire a warning shot" before the options become more lethal.

 

Well speaking as someone who worked as a corrections and jail officer, you never, I say again, NEVER, fire "warning shots". If you shoot, you shot to stop the actions of the individual you are firing on. The reason you don't fire a warning shot is you are legally responsible for where that round impacts. During my time in both prisons and jails, I was on the Disturbance Control Unit (the riot unit) and the Tactical Support Unit (SWAT).

 

We had a lot of inmates think we had to fire a warning shot, and they found out other wise the hard way. it was explained to them as soon as they arrived that if they tried to escape, they would be shot. It was that simple. You jump the fence, we WILL shot you. You take a hostage, we will not negotiate with you. You use force, we will use a greater level of force to regain control. We did have less lethal munitions available (“stinger†rounds, baton rounds, bean bag rounds, gas, OC, stun guns, Tazers, etc.) and used them quite frequently, but, you did what you had to do to stop some of these guys. The yare not in prison for stealing a six pack down at the local 7-11.

[Gummibear]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

A note of interest here which may be obvious. Many of the solutions involve super powers from paranormals. Do you have a large number of paranormals that are interested in being civil servants?

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

A cure for this happens to fix some other problems. Drop your villains in an isolated slice of farmland with a "Dummy's guide to farming" (PS:Farmer 8- OAF). He now has to choice to maintain his food supply (a demanding full-time job) or practicing being a badass and starving.

 

A lot of the truly dangerous supervillains do have Life Support: Does Not Eat and/or Longevity.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

A lot of the truly dangerous supervillains do have Life Support: Does Not Eat and/or Longevity.

 

Of course, alot of those villains are the kind that your never going to realistically capture, anyway.

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

Of course' date=' alot of those villains are the kind that your never going to realistically capture, anyway. [/quote']

 

What, is your hero group never going to square up to (and hopefully, defeat and capture) Grond-like high-end bricks, Dark-Seraph-like or Firewing-like high-end cosmics or bodily-empowered mystics ? Keeping yourself safely restricted to rounding up bank robbers, agents, and the likes of GRAB, eh ? Shame on you, pathetic amateurs

[Metaphysician]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

Nono, I meant as in "the types that aren't going to be taken alive, likely."

 

And I was more thinking "Takofanes," myself, though if you literally have no supertech, you might well not be able to capture some of those others, either. . .

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

Plus, a government and society that does them would move any superhuman with a grudge against society toward armed rebellion. A society that does these things against its criminal members isn't really punishing crime, it's the majority waging a no-holds-barred civil war againt a minority, and the minority will retaliate with equal brutality....

 

No, I suggest to stick to power-nullifying drugs, cold sleep, immersive VR rigs, and drug-induced coma.

 

Yowza. I've rarely heard that position described so succinctly. Good one.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

Another option I mentioned on another thread somewhere is one-way extradimensional travel.

 

I always liked that idea. Of course, once in a while a runaway nuclear weapon with explode next to a interdimensional nexus and three Kryptonian psychopaths will fly down to your planet and take it over, but that's bound to happen sooner or later, anyway.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

Back when "Power Destruction" was a power, I had a character with a Total Code vs. Killing who would completely destroy the Intelligence and Ego of captured supervillains who a) had killed a lot of people, and had escaped from prison repeatedly. She hated doing it, though. It gave her nightmares. But she couldn't see any other way to deal with them.

 

She eventually retired: the ethical choices she was forced to make were too much for her.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

A lot of the truly dangerous supervillains do have Life Support: Does Not Eat and/or Longevity.

 

I don't find either of these to be common, but a significant minority of characters does have one or both.

 

Having "Does not eat" does free up the villain's time for badass training, but "Longevity" by itself merely gives the villain time to get really experienced (as opposed to Experienced) at farming.

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

Back when "Power Destruction" was a power' date=' I had a character with a Total Code vs. Killing who would completely destroy the Intelligence and Ego of captured supervillains who a) had killed a lot of people, and had escaped from prison repeatedly.[/quote']

 

Completely and permanently destroying Intelligence and Ego is tantamount to killing under any definition that makes sense. We are our personalities, memories, wills, and desires. That a heart-thumping, breathing insensible piece of meat may be left behind when they are gone matters nothing. If your character was routinely mind-killing supervillains, he was breaking his CvK right, left, and center. If I had been the GM, I would have forced the player to completely buy off the CvK as soon as the charcter began to do it as routine, and adequately RP the soul-journey involved in going from Total CvK to no CvK.

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

I don't find either of these to be common, but a significant minority of characters does have one or both.

 

Having "Does not eat" does free up the villain's time for badass training, but "Longevity" by itself merely gives the villain time to get really experienced (as opposed to Experienced) at farming.

 

True, but farming is unlikely to occupy all of your waking time, and badass training is a great way to occupy your free time when stranded in the middle of nothing. Longevity (or Does Not Sleep) grants plenty of leisure time.

 

Besides, in most cases LS is used in a character, be they published NPCs or PCs, it's the whole deal Total LS.

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

I always liked that idea. Of course' date=' once in a while a runaway nuclear weapon with explode next to a interdimensional nexus and three Kryptonian psychopaths will fly down to your planet and take it over, but that's bound to happen sooner or later, anyway.[/quote']

 

Events like these are an integral part of the way laws of physics work in comic book universe, just like freaky accidents turning down the triple-redundant power feed to the hot sleep chambers or immersive VR rigs holding the ubervillains, or the corrupt clique among the prison wardens or unscrupolous government officials recuiting them as super-soldiers, or the godlike entity deciding to free them for its own unscrutable reasons, or the master villain hosting a jailbreak since they would be the perfect associates...

 

That no way of keeping supervillains out of the picture will be 100% foolproof is a reality the public will have to swallow IC, and settle for the "mostly effective" methods. As for the "then they would cry for execution" objection, there are plenty of ways a supervillain could cheat death, too. Just have an executed supervillain or two be resurrected by his powers and go on an orgy of killing-spree destruction rampage downtown in revenge to society.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

Completely and permanently destroying Intelligence and Ego is tantamount to killing under any definition that makes sense.

 

There is a very significant difference: what she did was reversible. It was horrible, yes, and it caused her sleepless nights to do it, yes, but it wasn't killing.

 

If I had been the GM' date=' I would have forced the player to completely buy off the CvK as soon as the charcter began to do it as routine...[/quote']

 

If you'd been the GM, you'd have known that it wasn't routine. And I hope that, as a competent GM, you'd have known the character well enough to realize that it was the only thing she thought she could to do to preserve her code against killing.

 

No argument that it was a horrific thing to do, though.

[Big Willy]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

True' date=' but farming is unlikely to occupy all of your waking time, [/quote']

 

Hmm... Most farmers would beg to differ, methinks.

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

There is a very significant difference: what she did was reversible.

 

Oh. If the INT/EGO crippling was truly reversible, then my objection drops. I was under the impression that was she did was effectively permanent (i.e. some kind of nasty, quite-difficult-to-heal, Transform, or Drain with a very long -years- recovery rate). If she was using a power construct that would allow a decent chance of ready recovery to inmates, that would be fine in my book. E.g. a Drain/Suppress INT/EGO/STUN with Continous, 0-End, Uncontrolled, and OAF would be how most "hot sleep" containing devices and immersive VR rigs would work anyway (just like a Drain Mutant Powers with the same modifiers would be for "power negators").

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

Oh. If the INT/EGO crippling was truly reversible' date=' then my objection drops.[/quote']

 

Yes, Power Destruction was reversible. It's been a few years, and I sold off my previous edition Champions books a long time ago, but as I recall it could be healed back, or reversed in a method similar to what a Transform does now. There were also a few supers (good and bad) on the planet who could simply cancel the effect (she being one of them).

 

If she was using a power construct that would allow a decent chance of ready recovery to inmates...

 

I didn't say that. I said it was reversible. Death isn't, or at least it wasn't in that game (I've not played many where it was, comicbook precedents notwithstanding). Aside from that, there's a big difference between crippling someone -- even crippling them for life -- and killing them. I have had characters who would consider crippling someone (even reversibly) as being worse than killing them. She was not one of them. I've also had characters who vowed to protect life, but who'd have no trouble with executing a convicted multiple-mass-murderer. She was not one of them, either.

 

I also have one character (who I still play, if rarely) who would simply refuse to make such a choice. Some would call that "choosing to allow the psychopath to continue killing", but for that character there was a distinct difference between refusing to choose and in choosing to let the psychopath kill.

 

For the aforementioned Int-destroying character, unfortunately, refusing to choose did mean choosing to let the psychopath kill again. For her, the choice was between crippling uncontrollable psychopaths or allowing them to continue killing. She made the only choice she felt she could, with the power that she had, and with her belief that life was intrinsically sacred (even the life of an uncontrollable psychopath).

 

I am sure that you are not implying that all characters everywhere should share the same morality and values (namely, yours). I am sure that you are a better GM than that.

 

This kind of goes back to the topic of the thread: namely, what do you do when faced with a threat to society when the mundane authorities do not have the super-tech required to contain that threat (or at least, which would make containing it easier)? It would go to the core of what a supers values are, and even two heroes who are ostensibly both for Truth, Justice, and the American Way, and who both have Total Codes Against Killing, could conceivably have a severe difference of opinion on the Right Thing To Do.

 

It's really an Iron Age question -- Four Color settings avoid the topic, largely because unstoppable super-powered mass-murderers are very rare in Four-Color games. Which is probably a good thing. Life is grim enough.

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Prisons without Super Tech

 

For the aforementioned Int-destroying character, unfortunately, refusing to choose did mean choosing to let the psychopath kill again. For her, the choice was between crippling uncontrollable psychopaths or allowing them to continue killing. She made the only choice she felt she could, with the power that she had, and with her belief that life was intrinsically sacred (even the life of an uncontrollable psychopath).

 

I am sure that you are not implying that all characters everywhere should share the same morality and values (namely, yours). I am sure that you are a better GM than that.

 

Of course. You make a number of excellent points. I may only add that, as GM, I would really strive not to have any character in play that upholds the sanctity of the breathing-meat, *biological* life as sacred, and feels good to place people in permanent comas, cripple them to tetraplegy, lobotomize them, and the like. Because of my RL heartfelt and deep beliefs, I see that as hypocrisy of the worst kind, and I know I could never be fair to such a character. There are a number of character concepts (such as the religious fanatic, and the witch-hunter) which I very strongly warn people from PCing in any game I GM, since they run very contrary to my RL beliefs and sympathies, and I know I would never be able to resist the urge to heap such a character with all kinds of abuse.

 

As a player, I generally prefer PCs who have no CvK (except maybe a 5-pts "warrior with morals" weak CvK), since I do not personally believe in the absolute sanctity of life, and I rather prefer to replace it with other "heroic" Psych Lims like Honorable, Heroic, and Protective of Innocents. As a GM, most CvKs are fine as long as the character has a definition of "killing" I can stomach. I would still strongly prefer not to ever see Total CvK used, since I have very strong antipathy toward the philosophy behind it, and again I'm not sure of my ability to be neutral.

 

It's really an Iron Age question -- Four Color settings avoid the topic, largely because unstoppable super-powered mass-murderers are very rare in Four-Color games. Which is probably a good thing. Life is grim enough.

 

This is one of the reasons I very much prefer Iron Age over Four Color. It allows a much broader range of interesting topics to be addressed.