Overwhelming PRE attacks

[Randi]

HELP!

 

I GM games on Hero Central where some of the players like to use overwhelming PRE attacks, walk in like Gods, roll 15 or 20d6 PRE, everyone surrenders, end of threat, end of game. Even with minuses like -1d6 for being in-combat, etc., it's still overwhelming. Everyone is Cowed, and they will do whatever they are told. "Surrender to the police and allow them to put on the megarestraints." Or "Bow down and worship me!" etc.

 

My response has been to tell them I do NOT like overwhelming PRE attacks and I simply will not allow them; no more than 30 PRE. But the players object. So they try to find other ways, like building a CE with +20 vs Ego, or Drain Ego, Ranged, AeO, lots of dice... or the occasional mentalist power gamer with a 20d6 power suite: Telepathy, Mental Illusions, Mind Control... which just kind of messes up any GM plans.

 

How do you suggest I handle players that want to have God-like Presence? Besides telling them to take a flying leap? Or introducing them to Menton?

[Steve Long]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Since this is a "GMing advice" sort of question, I've moved it to the "Discussion" board so anyone who likes can offer suggestions.

 

Personally, I'd just establish reasonable limits and appeal to the maturity of the players. Having never run an online game (though I've played in a few), I'm not sure how well that'd work for a non-FTF game, though.

[Fox1]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

How do you suggest I handle players that want to have God-like Presence? Besides telling them to take a flying leap? Or introducing them to Menton?

 

If they refuse to obey your restriction their PRE attacks (getting around it with cute builds is a refusal), do one of the following:

 

1. Remove PRE attacks from the game.

 

2. Tell them to take a flying leap.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Sounds like they're "in it to win" and not play in genre.

 

You probably want to sit down with them and have a talk about what kind of game they want. A lot of fun comes from confrontation and not knowing if you can take out the bad guy before it's too late.

 

Of course, another more solid method is to deny them experience. Growth comes from conflict, if every encounter ends in two phases with the barking orders and not really investigating and doing much else they rarely get a chance to learn - reflected by you not giving them any experience to spend.

 

Basically - they don't sound like they're playing the game you'd like to play. And it has been correctly pointed out before that if the GM isn't having an fun either the game needs adjustment.

[Cancer]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Expose them to more classes of villains. Against a team that's over-reliant upon EGO- and PRE-based attacks, mechanicals are the standard "scissors" to that "paper". For instance, large numbers of Automatons who use Coordinated Attacks.

[mikesama]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Inflict a counter PRE attack by a master villan thats leading them, give him Comanding presence +30 PRE, only to inspire followers -1.

 

"No you fools attack them, you cannot loose to the likes of them!"

 

He beats thier presence attack and they keep going.

 

 

ALternatly someone hits them with a darkness vrs sight and sound, give the schlubs radar visors and when they make the PRE attack say well they can't really see or hear you and to thier radar visors all you are is a vaugely human shape.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Put them up against Automatons and punish them. Automatons are immune to PRE attacks

 

Then do the same thing to them. Hit them with PRE/EGO drain then PRE attack them into surrenduring. When they whine about it, explain to them thats how you feel when they do it. It might get through to some of them, but probably not all. You may get someone who is so offended they never return, in either case, problem solved.

 

Then send a letter to everyone involved about your dislike of overwhelming PRE attacks and why you think it is ruining the feel of the game. Make sure you explain the concept of staying "in genre" so that everyone understands where you are coming from. Hopefully they'll understand.

[Fox1]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Expose them to more classes of villains. Against a team that's over-reliant upon EGO- and PRE-based attacks' date=' mechanicals are the standard "scissors" to that "paper". For instance, large numbers of Automatons who use Coordinated Attacks.[/quote']

 

IME such in-game counters only seldom control players insisting on taking advantage of the system, it typically makes things worse.

 

They will either re-double their efforts to find new loopholes, or they will decide that the GM "isn't playing fair" and personal conflict increases. Rolling over after a GM inflicted beating isn't likely.

[schir1964]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

HELP!....

Howdy Randi!

 

Rarely see you post over here in this section.

 

Well, considering that you already have a campaign in progress this is the suggestion that I think might work best for your situation.

 

Add a new House Rule to your campaign description:

 

Presence Attacks: Character's get 1d6 for every 20 Points of Presence.

 

This reduces the effect of Presence attacks, yet for those who want to spend all their points on Presence might still have an effect.

 

Those who can't swallow the House Rule might leave, but then that might not be such a great loss, based on what you are dealing with.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Mentor]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

I agree with the posts appealing to the genre and maturity. I am assuming that there is a vetting process for PCs to determine if any of their values are cheesy and metagamish. Character concepts only work when something besides merely fighting supervillains is involved in a campaign. You might remind them that it is hard for player characters with 60 PRE to get anything else done when average citizens stop everything to notice them, get in car wrecks because of rubbernecking, forget the information the Heroes need because they are so taken with the impressiveness of the PC, etc.

[Cancer]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

IME such in-game counters only seldom control players insisting on taking advantage of the system, it typically makes things worse.

 

They will either re-double their efforts to find new loopholes, or they will decide that the GM "isn't playing fair" and personal conflict increases. Rolling over after a GM inflicted beating isn't likely.

 

That could be quite correct in general. I've been lucky to play more or less exclusively for the last 12 years or so with a pretty small, stable group of quite reasonable people, and we adapt when the GMs point out via in-game counters that we've become overly specialized and/or exploitative.

 

So it's been a while since I've had to contend with pick-up munchkins, and what I remember of that experience, you are quite right.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Would you allow a 20d6 Energy Blast, or 100 STR? If not, why would you allow a 20d6 PRE attack, or 100 PRE? I see three approaches:

 

(a) Discuss this with the players. It's not the game you want to play. If it's the game they want to play, maybe it's time to part ways. On the other hand, if they wish to take this approach, you can live with it and play some counterstrategies.

 

( Change the opposition, discussed a bit above. Some items not mentioned above, however.

 

- You have 100 PRE? What a surprise - tonight's villain has a 150 PRE.

 

- "The VIPER agents quiver in their boots. The smell of human waste and fear is almost overwhelming. Suddenly, several shots ring out" as enemies on the rooftops fire their sniper rifles at Our Heroes' heads. Since a 20d6 PRE attack is acceptable, they should have no problem with these opponents having 5d6 Penetrating RKA's, right?

 

- Raise the average PRE across the board. "Yes, you are impressive heroes. These are even more impressive villains. You guys set the bar - I'm just adjusting the game world to match."

 

© Walk away and play with more mature gamers whose play style will better match your own.

[Heroman]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

I would definately approach it from a limit perspective. That and simply deny powers where the player is obviously trying to get a combination to circumvent your restrictions. While it is reasonable to have a hero with complimentary powers, when they directly add it is not abiding by the limits you place.

 

You could also, for those pesky PRE monsters, introduce the BDR (Blind, Deaf, Radar) Villians. You need to understand what the attacker is trying to get you to do after all...

 

Also, rampaging computer controlled vehicles will mock (well, can be programmed to artifically mock) PRE dependant people. Face it; the villian element will watch and learn about the heroes. They want to succeed so they will adapt. There even could be a larger villian that wants to rough up the heroes so they provide even these smaller gangs with tech designed to hit the heroes hard.

[Brother Jim]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

i like the 5D6 penetrating, no range modifier RKA idea.

 

 

 

but, try talking to them first.

 

then after they refuse to follow your capaign guidelines hit them in the head with a 10D6 AP, Pen, NRM, +10 OCV, effects desolid and whatever other advantages you need to get them out of your game.

 

'cause if they won't follow campaign limits, why should you ?????

[prestidigitator]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Maybe if they are playing the system like this they want this kind of challenge. How about:

• Pre; Only to Protect Against Pre Attacks (-1) (incredibly cheap)
  
• Absorption: Pre, "damage," to Str (unconventional, I know, but go ahead: keep making those unlimited, takes-no-time Pre Attacks...)
  
• Enraged/Berserk (don't think Presence Attacks are going to be much good against a berserk target, seeing as they are all likely to act directly against the Disadvantage; you could even make the condition suitable, such as: "when overwhelmed with doubt")

If anyone manages to pop an attack or two off on the PCs it is likely to hurt; after all, they have sunk a great deal of points into Presence instead of apprpriate defenses and the like.

 

The good thing is, especially in superhero genres, that villians who can naturally counter the heros' shticks just somehow have a nack for popping up, especially when the heros are getting cocky.

[garou]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

How high a PRE do they have? They should at least be facing -1d6 (Combat), -1d6 to -3d6 (against existing mood) - if they use a power in an extremely violent way, they might cancel that out. Then, against the average goon PRE or EGO of 10, they'd still need to roll a total of 40 in order to get them to surrender. With average rolls, that's something like a PRE of 60!

 

Also, I believe that only the target of the PRE attack takes the full brunt. Others on the same side are effected, but at one level less.

 

You could always start (in addition to introducing automotons, talking with the players, etc) giving the goons two new powers: Armor (just because every goon needs more PD and ED) and then a PRE +30, Only vs PRE attacks, Only when wearing armor (total cost is 13 points or thereabouts)

[Lanith]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

...You might remind them that it is hard for player characters with 60 PRE to get anything else done when average citizens stop everything to notice them' date=' get in car wrecks because of rubbernecking, forget the information the Heroes need because they are so taken with the impressiveness of the PC, etc.[/quote']

 

Beautiful ideas, explain to the players just how IMPRESSIVE they are and then let them feel the side effects. Honestly I don't think these ideas will work alone, but they are some great ideas.

If I'm reading your players correctly they will bask in their superhero-dom and not care that normals are being injured or dying when they see them. You'll have to explain to them how annoying it is, then when you get the inevitable arguments of "everything I'm doing is within the rules"; then you whip out your atomaton army with 5d6RKA's.

[mallet]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Create an adventure with a villain who has Transform, usable as an attack, as a power (he uses it to change the apperance of his henchmen into what ever is needed to compleate a mission (rob a bank, break into an office, etc...) )

 

When the PC's show up he permanetly changes them from high PRE characters into low/average PRE characters. If you are feeling nice, you can give the PC's the equivilent Experience Points (of what they lost) to re-spend on other powers over time.

 

This way you have an "in-game"/"storyline" reason for their sudden loss, but they do not loose out on all of the points they spent. It's win-win, and could lead to some character development when the PC's have to suddenly deal with the fact that they are no longer that impressive.

 

And if they don't like it, well... Tough for them. It's a game, things happen that they can not control. If they don't like then they can GM their own game.

[garou]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

I agree with the posts appealing to the genre and maturity. I am assuming that there is a vetting process for PCs to determine if any of their values are cheesy and metagamish. Character concepts only work when something besides merely fighting supervillains is involved in a campaign. You might remind them that it is hard for player characters with 60 PRE to get anything else done when average citizens stop everything to notice them' date=' get in car wrecks because of rubbernecking, forget the information the Heroes need because they are so taken with the impressiveness of the PC, etc.[/quote']

That's nasty. It also means that there are lots of innocent bystanders whenenever combat breaks out. Little kids try to emulate their heroes (and fail, with serious injuries, which leads to lawsuits, etc). Villains start trying to join up with them. Police stop responding to calls because the PCs can handle it. Rescue personnel are letting people die at the scene of a fight because they keep trying to flirt with the PCs. PCs get mobbed whenever they try to appear in public, and riots ensue when they leave, causing more death and property damage.

 

And did they not take PRE with the OIHID or a focus? Then maybe introduce the concept of "Casual PRE", where you use have your PRE for random social interactions. John Q. Superhero didn't mean to use his overpowering PRE (which he normally reserves for his gig as Captain Quissenart), but unfortunately, when he asked his secretary to get him a cop of coffee, she was overwhelmed. She's left her husband, and is now living at the office, hoping to get a chance to get him more coffee. Mary's husband is suing John Q for alienation of affection.

 

People start commiting crimes just to see their favorite superhero. The PCs are no longer battling VIPER, or PSI, or even Panda and Raccoon - now, they're fighting 80-year-old grandmothers, who have held up a bank and baked a pie for their favorite superhero.

 

Man, this could be fun. . . .

[Brother Jim]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

actually, i really like some of these really Evil ideas other people are coming up with.

 

 

man do i miss actually being able to play !!!

 

i'm about as rusty as a piece of cheap steel thrown in the ocean two years ago.

[Dr Archeville]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

*steps in to defend self*

 

I'm more likely than not the "problem" player Randi's talking about.

 

My character, Dead Head, is in the 700-pt [550 + 150 in Disad] Galactic Champions game Randi runs. So far, I've had fun, and I've yet to actually do anything except make an Acrobatics roll (to leap onto a wall) and my one PRE attack, which cowed 5 Mooks (and most of the other PC's).

 

Dead Head has a PRE of 30. He also has Terror from Beyond the Grave: +40 PRE (40 Active); Only for Making and to Defend Against Fear-Based PRE Attacks (-1/2) (27 Real). He also has a COM of 4, and the Disadvantage Distinctive Features: Walking Corpse (Concealable with Effort; Causes Extreme Reaction [Fear/Revulsion]; Detectable By Common Senses). He looks like Evil Ernie (from Chaos! Comics), or Dirge (from the Zombie webtoon).

 

Dead Head is from a planet where every humanoid inhabitant was turned into ravenous bloodthirty undead ghouls several years ago; he himself is the only member of his race who is not overcome with a hunger for living flesh, though he himself is a ghoul. He had been fighting them for years, mostly b/c he can also see & hear the spirits of all those dead people, and most ask him to put their bodies down, and in part b/c he's had nothing else to do. A passing Perseid research vessel crashed on the planet; Dead Head helped defend the Perseid from the ghouls while they repaired their ship, and in return they took him (whose undead nature piqued their scientific and philosophic curiosity) off the planet.

 

I've had to revamp and retool the character several times -- originally he was going to be an undead with a wide array of necromantic spell-like powers, but now he's more like an undead Batman, stealthy and chock full of acrobatics & martial arts skills. I'd already told Randi I'd knock off the "Terror from Beyond the Grave" bit if he really wanted me to, though I'm not sure what else to add. My main reservation about this new GM-imposed change is in large part b/c I've had to change the character around so much already.

 

In my mind [at least], Dead Head should be able to scare the daylights out of most normals, and this shouldn't be too game-breaking. I.e., be able to get a 30 on PRE Attacks, which'd be 20 higher than a Mook's EGO/PRE of 10, which on overage would require a roll of 9d6, which would require a PRE of 45 to get. If I could have a lower version of Terror from Beyond the Grave -- say, +15 PRE (15 Active); Only for Making and to Defend Against Fear-Based PRE Attacks (-1/2) (10 Real), which'd be enough to effectively raise DH's PRE to 45 when making fear-based PRE attacks -- I'd be happy as a clam.

 

 

(How happy are clams, really?)

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Maybe if they are playing the system like this they want this kind of challenge. How about:

• Pre; Only to Protect Against Pre Attacks (-1) (incredibly cheap)
  
• Absorption: Pre, "damage," to Str (unconventional, I know, but go ahead: keep making those unlimited, takes-no-time Pre Attacks...)
  
• Enraged/Berserk (don't think Presence Attacks are going to be much good against a berserk target, seeing as they are all likely to act directly against the Disadvantage; you could even make the condition suitable, such as: "when overwhelmed with doubt")

Beat me to it!

 

My group introduced 'Presence Defense' as a characteristic several years ago, simply because it was an easy concept to juggle and we got tired or writing "Only to protect against Pre attacks (-1)" every time a character wanted it. And yes, it's insanely cheap, and it gives a very nice simulation of the true 'career thug.' While he himself may not be the most awe-inspiring person (say PRE 13-15), he has been around a long time, seen a lot of things, and been truly trounced by people far better than the guy trying to scare him now. It's very nice for that.

 

The "Berserk when confounded/frightened/otherwise PRE Attacked" was something I was going to suggest as well. Keep in mind that while your players are teaching the badguys the error of their ways, they are also learning how to actually _be_ heroes. I don't like to make things overwhelming for my players, but I do like for them to understand that as the 'good guys,' they have to consider all their actions, and act responsibly.

 

Realistically, a waterfront wharf, gaurded by a dozen well-armed henchmen, is going to have at least a few innocents (night gaurd, midnight anglers, mook short-cutting home from his second job). When you've got a dozen armed men, keyed up with adreneline, and up pops Johnny Shinytights, big and bold as all creation, at least one guy is going to pop of a round or two, even if by accident. A slew of proffessional toughs may spray off a wave or two of lead trying to buy a second to get their wits together (even if they will ultimately be cowed; there is pure adreneline and shock to consider). Suppose someone were to get hurt-- or possibly killed-- as a direct result of 'heroic arrogance?'

 

I really like some of the ideas presented by all the above posters-- from automatons to simply raising the bar for opponents, and in particular the 'pitfalls' of a high PRE score. (though if you want to lay that one on too heavy, you might consider forcing a Disadvantage for a PRE above say 30), and I think you should consider them.

 

But focus also on Prestidigitator's (-please- tell me I spelled that right) ideas of PRE Defense, and focus on the possible backlashes of startled goons. No two people are completely alike, so it is not unreasonable that someone is going to react slightly differently than the chart says they will.

 

While we have never had a regular problem with repeated high PAs, we do have some regular rules governing their use that may give you some ideas:

 

1) Whenever the target has faced that Hero before, the Hero takes a modifier to his PA: right away, -1d6 per previous encounter. This is to reflect that the target has become more familiar with the tactics of the Hero, and like any celebrity, they are always a bit less intimidating once you 'know' them. Besides, it's hard to have an arch-nemesis who is repeatedly running away on a trail of urine every time you show up. This works well for goons, too. There is a certain element who is simply attracted to the 'easy pickin's' lifestyle of henching for a supervillain. You'll likely meet the same goon now and again. (I recommend the old 'Agent Control Sheets' for listing exposure histories of goons)

 

2)If the target has ever escaped from the Hero, that's another -1d6 per escape. The taget knows that the Hero is not as infallable as the PA might suggest.

 

3)If the previous encounters with the Hero ended non-violently (say, instant cowing by a PA) or the target has never seen genuine violence from the Hero against a goon or other peer of the target, -1d6 to -3d6.

 

4)If the Hero is rumored or repped to have a Code v Killing, -3d6 or divide the total dice remaining after above modifiers for the PA in half (whichever is least)

 

5)if the target knows for an absolute fact that the Hero has a Code v Kiling, -5d6 or divide the total dice remaining after above modifiers for the PA in half (whichever is greater). It's hard for a proffessional tough guy to fear for his life when he knows his life is not in the least bit of danger).

 

No modifiers from the above guidelines (save #5) can ever reduce a PA to less than 2d6 effectiveness. Even on a bad day, a super should be able to draw approval from an average citizen.

 

Of course, there are modifiers the otherway--

 

 

I hope that something up there can help you.

 

 

Duke

[prestidigitator]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Nice ideas about side effects and whatnot! I really liked the secretary example! And Duke Bushido is very right about the targets' reactions as well. In general a successful Presence Attack is going to give the attacker an advantage, but who says that has to be all? It might very well force the targets to do something very stupid that in the end will allow the attacker to win and/or something really bad to happen to the targets, but there's absolutely nothing that says it has to be exactly the reaction the attacker wants!

 

The NPCs might run screaming from the PCs, attacking anything that gets in their way. The police might be extremely startled by the Presence Attack as well, having heart attacks or opening fire on the PCs before they know what they are doing...or throwing down their guns and running for their lives. Imagine what is going to happen to the PCs' reputations if they cause police to die, resign, or get locked in mental institutions? How many of the criminals are going to be released by judges because the method of apprehension employed acts of terror or unnecessary cruelty? What happens when the crooks, now severely mentally deranged by the psychological trauma imposed by the PCs, are again released upon the streets?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

*steps in to defend self*

 

I'm more likely than not the "problem" player Randi's talking about.

 

My character, Dead Head, is in the 700-pt [550 + 150 in Disad] Galactic Champions game Randi runs. So far, I've had fun, and I've yet to actually do anything except make an Acrobatics roll (to leap onto a wall) and my one PRE attack, which cowed 5 Mooks (and most of the other PC's).

 

Dead Head has a PRE of 30. He also has Terror from Beyond the Grave: +40 PRE (40 Active); Only for Making and to Defend Against Fear-Based PRE Attacks (-1/2) (27 Real). He also has a COM of 4, and the Disadvantage Distinctive Features: Walking Corpse (Concealable with Effort; Causes Extreme Reaction [Fear/Revulsion]; Detectable By Common Senses). He looks like Evil Ernie (from Chaos! Comics), or Dirge (from the Zombie webtoon).

 

 

edit: Clams are pretty frickin' happy, from what I hear...

Dead Head is from a planet where every humanoid inhabitant was turned into ravenous bloodthirty undead ghouls several years ago; he himself is the only member of his race who is not overcome with a hunger for living flesh, though he himself is a ghoul. He had been fighting them for years, mostly b/c he can also see & hear the spirits of all those dead people, and most ask him to put their bodies down, and in part b/c he's had nothing else to do. A passing Perseid research vessel crashed on the planet; Dead Head helped defend the Perseid from the ghouls while they repaired their ship, and in return they took him (whose undead nature piqued their scientific and philosophic curiosity) off the planet.

 

I've had to revamp and retool the character several times -- originally he was going to be an undead with a wide array of necromantic spell-like powers, but now he's more like an undead Batman, stealthy and chock full of acrobatics & martial arts skills. I'd already told Randi I'd knock off the "Terror from Beyond the Grave" bit if he really wanted me to, though I'm not sure what else to add. My main reservation about this new GM-imposed change is in large part b/c I've had to change the character around so much already.

 

In my mind [at least], Dead Head should be able to scare the daylights out of most normals, and this shouldn't be too game-breaking. I.e., be able to get a 30 on PRE Attacks, which'd be 20 higher than a Mook's EGO/PRE of 10, which on overage would require a roll of 9d6, which would require a PRE of 45 to get. If I could have a lower version of Terror from Beyond the Grave -- say, +15 PRE (15 Active); Only for Making and to Defend Against Fear-Based PRE Attacks (-1/2) (10 Real), which'd be enough to effectively raise DH's PRE to 45 when making fear-based PRE attacks -- I'd be happy as a clam.

 

 

(How happy are clams, really?)

 

Welp, ask yourself - is a 14D6 (unmodified) PRE attack appropriate to the game. It's a high powered game - so probably. It's less deadly than a 14D6 EB (though that could be argued). If not, then you should tone it down.

 

Are you using the power appropriately? Sometimes another method may be more appropriate to the game, or story, than Uber-Ability-X.

 

I don't think the fault lies entirely with the players, perhaps the GM had a different expectation than what actually came about. Which is why I suggest the Players and GM talk first. If expecations are adjusted then the game has a good chance of leveling itself out back towards balance.

 

If that fails Dead Head should be prepared to fight a dozen automata with 5D6 RKA NNDs (I'm kidding)

[Trebuchet]

Re: Overwhelming PRE attacks

 

Look, if all Dead Head is trying to do with his huge PRE is intimidate mooks, then 30 PRE is more than enough; especially with a display of power for extra dice. But it simply is not genre for heroes to scare the bejeezus out of their opposite numbers. That's more a villain schtick.

 

So tone down or eliminate the extra +40 PRE and try something different. Maybe a Change Environment w/Selective Target which causes all opponents a -3 penalty on their OCV because Dead Head is so scary that they're literally shivering with fear. That still makes him creepy as hell, but it doesn't end the game in one swell foop. And it's something training or levels can eventually compensate for, which keeps encounters with mooks of interest.