Desolidification or Tunnelling?

[Just Joe]

I want to build a device that creates a bubble that temporarily desolidifies matter that passes through it. Everything that starts out on the inside is solid. Everything that passes through the bubble is rendered desolid from the time it passes through the surface of the bubble until it passes back out. At least for initial discussion, assume that the bubble is a one hex area sphere, and that the person operating the device must be inside of the sphere.

 

One possibility is tunelling, with the "close automatically" advantage and a limitation (-0, according to Steve, asked in a similar context) that the tunnel MUST be closed behind. This approach is fairly simple and economical. It also has the advantage that movement can be kept fairly slow (not stated in my initial description of the device, but still my preference). I would add a bunch to the DEF that could be tunnelled through. It has the disadvantage that it provides no protection (not the main point of the power, but still part of my conception of it).

 

The second possibility is desolidification, usable on others. Even though my conception is that the people inside the bubble are not desolid, they might as well be. I might have to put on some limitations (e.g., reduced movement, partial or no protection vs. energy attacks), but the basic idea might work. But I run into problems with the question of which version of the UOO advantage. The user of the device is affected, as are all who start inside the bubble. The user (or device) pays END or uses charges, not anyone else. The mass that can be inside the bubble is unlimited; it is the volume which is fixed. Anyone who leaves the bubble almost instantly reverts to the state of everyone else outside (i.e., no longer desolid, in game-terms or otherwise).

 

Suggestions?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

Tunneling will probablyrun into something that is either too hard to tunnel through (has too much DEF) or is not a valid target for tunneling and thus cannot be tunneled through.

 

So Desol might be better based on the effect as you have described it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

This sounds like plain ordinary Desol to me. The SFX is that everything else is Desol, but the effect is the same. You still walk through walls, people and aren't damaged by attacks.

[Just Joe]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

This sounds like plain ordinary Desol to me. The SFX is that everything else is Desol' date=' but the effect is the same. You still walk through walls, people and aren't damaged by attacks.[/quote']I might quibble with this (e.g., because energy blasts, drains, etc. are not rendereded desolid), but it's probably close enough. My main concern is the Usable on Others details.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

Build it like a Gate, but with Desolidification instead of Teleportation.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

If you're still shopping opinions (and if not, disregard this completely),

 

I like Dust Raven's idea. That's pretty much what I thought from the description as well. The effects are the same, just the SFX are different.

 

Go with Desol, UBO, or, if you're the GM, maybe a UAA with a wacky Area Affect. Sounds odd, sure, and will take a bit of handwaving, but the AOE does give a toe-hold for the 'selective' aspect if some things in the field are unaffected.

 

I don't care too much for the Tunneling idea, mostly because Tunneling to me is a movement power, period, and shouldn't provide a defense. But of course, that's me.

 

But for my money, just calling it plain ol' Desol UBO should do the trick, unless there's an application we are not aware of.

 

As far as movement, you still have a couple of options: you can limit the power such that the field dissipates above a certain rate of travel.

[Just Joe]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

Build it like a Gate' date=' but with Desolidification instead of Teleportation.[/quote']That's an interesting idea. I hadn't even realized there were rules for gates before I looked in the index after reading your post. I'll have to give this more thought, but my current thinking is that this would be most appropriate if the bubble is created next to the device and is static once created. Anyone could pass through the bubble while it exists, allowing passage through a wall or other barrier up to one hex thick. That's not quite how I described the power, but I have wanted to do something like this before, and I might end up going with this after all (or building both).

 

If you're still shopping opinions.

I am.

 

I like Dust Raven's idea . . . Go with Desol, UBO, or, if you're the GM, maybe a UAA with a wacky Area Affect. . .

 

As far as movement, you still have a couple of options: you can limit the power such that the field dissipates above a certain rate of travel.

I think Dust Raven's approach is the best. Furthermore, using his reply to my "Usable on Others Questions" post (supported by others), I am persuaded that Desolidification, Area of Affect (one Hex), Usable as Attack is probably the best way to go for the power as I initially described it.

 

Assuming I go that way, what limitation would you give for the fact that the power stops affecting a character as soon as he leaves the area? (Normally, UOU can keep working while LOS is maintained. This is something I've also asked in the UOU Questions thread.)

 

And any opinions on how much a limitation of "user can move at most 3 hexes per phase" should be worth? My gut says -1/4 in games where movements much over 6" are rare and -1/2 in games where they're common. But it's not nearly as limiting as concentrate throughout, which is only worth -1/2. (Though -1/2 is probably way too little for that limitation . . . hmm . . . I think I'll do a search and start a new thread on that one if there isn't one already).

[Blue]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

Not sure I understand the effect.

 

Charact A gets into the bubble/creates the bubble around themselves (what have ya) and proceeds to move through objects, walls, ground, etc?

 

If such is the case, the only weakness in either case (Desolid or a Tunnel that closes behind you) is a need to breath. Might need some life support.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

Furthermore, using his reply to my "Usable on Others Questions" post (supported by others), I am persuaded that Desolidification, Area of Affect (one Hex), Usable as Attack is probably the best way to go for the power as I initially described it.

 

Assuming I go that way, what limitation would you give for the fact that the power stops affecting a character as soon as he leaves the area?

 

Absolutely none. That is what the AOE is for. When they leave the Area, they cease to be affected.

 

In this particular case, the 'range' of the power is relative to the source of the power: if it 'projects' from another character, consider "No Range (it centers on that character)" with the "AOE (the area is measured with a radius from the character)" Similarly if it is a vehicle or focus of some sort.

 

If the bubble is created at some sort of 'gate', then the "range" of the power should be calculated from that gate, and bought up to ensure that the bubble can get all the way to the end of it's run (MegaScale might be a consideration here).

 

Either way, the characters that are affected are affected because they are within the area of effect, not because they are in the range. (granted, once they are out of range, there won't be a bubble either, but now we're splitting hairs).

 

(Normally, UOU can keep working while LOS is maintained. This is something I've also asked in the UOU Questions thread.)

 

Love to help you, but I'm drawing a blank on UOU (For the record, I spend my weekends awake from Friday morning till Moday night-- I've got a restoration project on the weekends. Makes me a bit fuzzy come Monday evening).

 

And any opinions on how much a limitation of "user can move at most 3 hexes per phase" should be worth?

 

Well this changes things. Earlier, I thought it was a single bubble in which the entire party travelled -- a desolid tour bus of sorts.

 

From that, however, I reckon that each character gets his own bus. It doesn't change things much, mind you, as range will be set again from the character, foci, or gate that creates the power. Just ignore my 'no range' suggestion.

 

however, having each person carry a field that affects anyone or anything in that field may prove to be needlessly complicated. You may simply opt to have it UAA period, and each person is affected, the field being merely SFX. Define the AOE not in terms of the area around the individuals, but as the larger area in which these bubble can exist. Granted, this is pretty much re-semanticizing my earlier interpretation, but hey-- it works . But this way, anyone entering into the 'uber area' will get his own bubble, which will dissapate when he leaves. (Don't forget the extra endurance )

 

My gut says -1/4 in games where movements much over 6" are rare and -1/2 in games where they're common.

 

I'd go with the values you assign, if only because the 3" still allows normies (if such these characters be) to make half-moves unaffected. So there is little danger of accidentally running out of one in a combat, but they will hampered during 'safer' times.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

***Puts GM head on***

 

If this is a player power, I fear we have an entire team that can just walk into the villain HQ and confront the villain without having to get past all those lovely death-traps and henchmen.

 

Bah, humbug!

 

Looking at the teleport gate idea, this would seem to be limited to both a certain area and a certain number or people/mass of content inside the 'bubble'.

 

Other than that (and the very practical suggestion, above, that a little life support might be a sueful adjunct) the only other problem I forsee is - well - not seeing. I mean, when you are passing through solid matter, desolidification gives you no particular ability to perceive through it, so everyone in the bubble will not be able to see where they are going or even see each other. Could be a problem if they need to stay inside the confines.

 

Phaser: Whew, I thought we were lost in that bedrock, but my trusty absolute direction talent saw us through

 

Rest of team: .......

 

Phaser: Er, guys.....

[Dust Raven]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

I might quibble with this (e.g.' date=' because energy blasts, drains, etc. are not rendereded desolid), but it's probably close enough. My main concern is the Usable on Others details.[/quote']

 

As far as the energy/non physical stuff still affecting, that could just be part of the Desolid (which requires some reasonably common SFX that will still harm the character). If there's a lot of stuff (anything versus ED or Power Defense), it would be worth a limitation (-1 in this case, in my opinion).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

Not sure I understand the effect.

 

Charact A gets into the bubble/creates the bubble around themselves (what have ya) and proceeds to move through objects, walls, ground, etc?

 

If such is the case, the only weakness in either case (Desolid or a Tunnel that closes behind you) is a need to breath. Might need some life support.

Good point ... though Tunneling notes you don't need lifesupport - it assume the character is keeping a "pocket of air" around them.

 

Desol on the other hand requires LifeSupport.

[Just Joe]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

What limitation would you give for the fact that the power stops affecting a character as soon as he leaves the area? (Normally' date=' UOU can keep working while LOS is maintained. This is something I've also asked in the UOU Questions thread.)[/quote']

Absolutely none. That is what the AOE is for. When they leave the Area' date=' they cease to be affected.[/quote']I think you have this wrong. Without the AOE advantage, the power is no range, but once the target is touched it can continue to work at a range (this is true of UAA and no range constant powers in general). So with AOE, it should be able to continue to affect a target who leaves the area. Thanks to Sean Waters asking and Steve Long answering a related question, I now have the answer. According to the "no range" limitation (5ER, p. 302), the limitation is worth -1 if the power cannot continue to function when the target moves away from the user. I infer that this is a -1/2 limitation for powers that are already no range. Similarly, I infer that an AOE UAA that stops affecting the target as soon as he leaves the defined area gets a -1/2 limitation.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

I think you have this wrong. Without the AOE advantage' date=' the power is no range, but once the target is touched it can continue to work at a range (this is true of UAA and no range constant powers in general). So with AOE, it should be able to continue to affect a target who leaves the area. Thanks to Sean Waters asking and Steve Long answering a related question, I now have the answer. According to the "no range" limitation (5ER, p. 302), the limitation is worth -1 if the power cannot continue to function when the target moves away from the user. I infer that this is a -1/2 limitation for powers that are already no range. Similarly, I infer that an AOE UAA that stops affecting the target as soon as he leaves the defined area gets a -1/2 limitation.[/quote']

I believe Continuous AoE Powers stop affecting a target as soon as they leave the area. Simple enough. No exta Limitation in my book. (BTW, we can also think of other Constant Powers that are AoE by default, like Darkness and Change Environment; they certainly stop affecting targets that leave the area.)

[Just Joe]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

I believe Continuous AoE Powers stop affecting a target as soon as they leave the area. Simple enough. No exta Limitation in my book.

Do you think that's official somewhere, or are you just expressing an opinion?

 

(BTW' date=' we can also think of other Constant Powers that are AoE by default, like Darkness and Change Environment; [i']they[/i] certainly stop affecting targets that leave the area.)

That's a good point, but I'm not persuaded. Leaving the area of a no-range AOE is analogous to being out of HTH range of a no-range power that is not AOE. The fact that those constant de facto AOE powers inherently have the limitation we're discussing does not mean it's not a limitation. (Compare: some powers are inherently no range).

 

And if we were to go with your interpretation, we'd need to add a new advantage if we want to be able to build powers that do continue to work once you leave the area (e.g., an "invisibility bomb" that coats everyone in the area with invisibility dust . . . OK, not a great example, but you get the idea).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

Do you think that's official somewhere' date=' or are you just expressing an opinion?[/quote']

I don't have my book ATM, but I believe the effects of Continuous on Area of Effect Powers are pretty well spelled out under the description for the Continuous Advantage. Something like targets being affected the instant they move into the area and during each of the attacker's Phases that they remain in the area (note: not forever after if they have ever been inside the area).

 

That's a good point, but I'm not persuaded. Leaving the area of a no-range AOE is analogous to being out of HTH range of a no-range power that is not AOE. The fact that those constant de facto AOE powers inherently have the limitation we're discussing does not mean it's not a limitation. (Compare: some powers are inherently no range).

I think the standard interpretation is that AoE Powers work differently than non-AoE Powers where Continuous is concerned. Maybe we can see a difference for powers that are simply Constant and would not normally need further effect rolls to keep working on a target. Unfortunately I don't believe the system really makes a big distinction between Constant and Continuous, especially in terms of the Modifiers used to apply them.

 

And if we were to go with your interpretation, we'd need to add a new advantage if we want to be able to build powers that do continue to work once you leave the area (e.g., an "invisibility bomb" that coats everyone in the area with invisibility dust . . . OK, not a great example, but you get the idea).

Probably. Maybe we could justify simply applying Continuous twice: once for the area affected by AoE and once for each target affected while in that AoE. Of course, that gets very expensive very quickly.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

So if someone were in the bubble going through a mountain, what happens if they step away from the bubble?

 

If this can be used as an attack power (via trickery?), there's something missing in the discussion.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

So if someone were in the bubble going through a mountain, what happens if they step away from the bubble?

 

If this can be used as an attack power (via trickery?), there's something missing in the discussion.

No, that's just called devious and evil roleplaying.

[Vorsch]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

And so does the Hero system defy intelligence.

 

You didnt pay for it, therefore it cant be done ( GM Fiat of course)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

Thinking about this there are two possible 'definitions' of how AoE works:

 

1. If everyone in an area is effected and continues to be effected even if they leave the original area BUT new people coming in are NOT effected.

 

2. Only people inside the AoE are effected (whether they were there originally or enter later) and anyone leaving stops being effected.

 

(well, 3 if you have a power that effects everyone in the area even if they then leave AND anyone entering...)

 

Each has advantages and disadvantages.

 

The official default position is clearly the second one (5ER p 99-100)

 

BUT.....say I buy a immolate attack: 2d6 RKA continuous - someone catches fire and contiunues burning until I lose LOS or stop it....what happens if I make that AoE...well, according to the rules the way the power works changes - it is the area that burns and only people in it who take damage - so leaving the area gets you away from the damage.

 

There does not readily appear to be a way of doing the 'exploding invisibility dust' thing mentioned by Just Joe.

 

Unless YOU know better......

[Helimar]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

The rules definitely state that continuous AOEs work like that, the way you would have to define the Immolate attack to make it work after the character left the area is to make it Sticky. Once they have entered the area, they catch on fire, and the fire sticks with them after they leave.

 

(visions of animals madly running around catching everything they touch on fire dancing in his head )

Helimar

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

The rules definitely state that continuous AOEs work like that, the way you would have to define the Immolate attack to make it work after the character left the area is to make it Sticky. Once they have entered the area, they catch on fire, and the fire sticks with them after they leave.

 

(visions of animals madly running around catching everything they touch on fire dancing in his head )

Helimar

 

Good thinking, but reading 'Sticky' I'm not sure if it would have any effect to prevent the power stopping once you were outside the field...and anyone in the field is effected anyway...

[Helimar]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

Hmm, I suppose by the letter of the rules you are right, but as a GM I would definitely rule that if you catch on fire with a Sticky attack in an area, you stay on fire, reasoning to follow.

 

Sticky essentially copies whatever attack is in effect on target A onto target B when target B touches the victim/area A affected by the attack. The Area Effect fire rages on, but now a new, NON-AOE version of the attack is burning on the unlucky target. Since it's now a targeted effect, it stays on the target no matter where he goes as long as no OTHER condition for extinguishing it is met, i.e. whatever the Continuous conditions are like dousing with water or fire-fighting foam, or leaving Line of Sight of the controller of the power. In addition, this new copy of the power is ALSO Sticky, unless a limitation is used to limit 'iterations', and that unlucky Target B can then 'infect' Targets C, D, and E with it, even outside the area of the initial conflagration (Target A).

 

I love the smell of Napalm in the morning,

Helimar

[prestidigitator]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

I'm thinking more and more that we should interpret Continuous in two different ways for Area of Effect Powers, as I said above, and apply it twice to actually affect both everyone in the area and everyone who leaves the area for the duration (or continue affecting just those who were in the instantaneous area if it is applied once with the alternate interpretation).

 

What happened to the 4E ways of interpreting the application of Modifiers differently in different circumstances, so you could truly build anything?!

[Silbeg]

Re: Desolidification or Tunnelling?

 

I guess my preference in the whole thing would be to rule that the "bubble" could be either tunnelling or desolid. I would actually prefer the solution of tunnelling, since its special effect could definately be "causing the surrounding materials to phase into another dimension", or whatever.

 

Though tunnelling will have a max DEF that it can penetrate, I don't see that as a problem. In fact, as a GM, that would be a very good thing, since that would allow me to have defenses against this possibly "bah-roken" power (from a story telling perspective).

 

I would require the "Fill In" adder for this power, as the "bubble" moves through stuff, but doesn't permanently affect them.

 

Per 5ER 241, I would require that the Invisible Power Affects, since it would definately be a "tunnelling without trace".

 

In practice, his companions would have move with him (I would allow up to 4 total in the hex, but after 2 would have them at 1/2 DCV).

 

With the SFX, this really doesn't sound like desolidication to me.