Dr. Anomaly Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing I don't think I'd choose the phrase "dumb it down". As I've said on more than one occassion, my two favorite systems (neck-and-neck) are HERO and Amber Diceless...opposite ends of the spectrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing I don't think Dumb It Down is appropriate at all. Different Approach - sure. But Dumbing it down is just insulting to the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed-F Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing I think he was suggesting that a bad conversion of Hero to diceless would just result in a dumbed-down Hero... not that diceless games in general are dumbed down. At least that's the impression I got. I can conceive of a good conversion of Hero to diceless that uses much of the character creation rules, or is at least influenced by them... but I would still toss out the combat rules for a diceless Hero game and go with descriptive combat. If you're going to use Hero's simulationist combat rules, then you might as well use the dice too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publius Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing A Tri-Stat may be more appropriate for conversion' date=' and there are even a half dozen or so Tri-Stat SuperHero systems out there.[/quote']Ironic that you would say that, as Tri-Stat was influenced strongly by both HERO and by Amber according to Mark McKinnon from Gaurdians of Order. That and GoO has the rights to Amber Diceless right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing Ironic that you would say that' date=' as Tri-Stat was influenced strongly by both HERO and by Amber according to Mark McKinnon from Gaurdians of Order. [/quote'] Twasn't irony at all! To get to such a limited number of stats, it would be darned near impossible to not add in quite a bit of "diceless style." The stats just stand for too darned much, with only three of them. Without more free form input all characters would be basically the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing But Dumbing it down is just insulting to the system. Not at all. The phrase "Dumb it down" has nothing to do with insulting anyone or anything, nor does it make any reference to making something less intelligent or stupid. The phrase means to remove the excess, to pare down, to simplify. To take any regular gaming system like Hero and remove a great deal of the meat-and-potatoes of it to turn it into a diceless system is most definately going to dumb it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing Thing is I don't believe it would be simplifying the game at all, if anything it would be adding a different layer of complication. If anything you're simply trading out one complex issue for another - far from dumbing it down, even by the definition you're presenting. It's just changing the overall approach At The Table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing So did this get attempted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenn Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing I've run a diceless Champions session. And for that single session, it worked. It was in a long running game, and everyone knew the charatcers involved. And the situation was a kind where the narrative could tell the story, and all dice would have accomplished is slow the whole game down. The big cosmic effects were there. The character interaction was there. The combat was a minor point. One guy said, I'll fight the (guardian creature) and you guys go around.... It worked, and everyone was happy with the scenario. But I can't imagine doing it long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing For those who ran diceless Champions but didn't use an established system (like Amber), how did you do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealVector Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing Madness! Dice are the only thing that stands between us and the tyranny of the GM!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenn Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing For those who ran diceless Champions but didn't use an established system (like Amber)' date=' how did you do it?[/quote'] In my case, I ran it like any other session, I just adjucated what happened without rolling the dice. For skills, I have a good idea of how often any of the characters succeed vs how often they fail. So I had a good idea of hoe many successes with a skill and how many failures they had, and applied them when they'd be the most dramatic. Similarly, knowing how much damage a given attack usually does and how accurate the character is with it allowed me to judge what fight there was. Because the players and myself all knew the combatants well, everyone had a pretty good idea what should happen when the two characters fought. Basically, I just used dramatic sense, and a familiarity with the characters and their abilities to let the story flow in a manner consisitent with what we've seen before - with just enough dramatic varience to keep it from being totally predictable. As someone joked, they were completly at my mercy to make judgement calls as to the resolution of conflicts. And it worked because I've strived for years, even decades, to have a cooperative relationship with the players and they know I love their characters too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Beyond Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing While I've been gaming for years, I've never wrapped my head around a diceless game. How do you randomize outcomes then? If I want to shoot that stormtrooper (for example), if they have the same defense number every time and I've got the same offense - doesnt that get boring? What about the Lucky Shot against a vastly superior foe? ("Holy crap! I just hit the Red Baron with a rock!!!") Sorry, I dont see it working. Gimmie the good ol' plastic random number generators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing So did this get attempted? I know that Eosin signed-up for a Hero game at Gencon that turned out to be a diceless version of some sort. He was pretty angry about it. Felt he had been ripped-off since he'd signed up for a Hero game and not improv theater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing I know that Eosin signed-up for a Hero game at Gencon that turned out to be a diceless version of some sort. He was pretty angry about it. Felt he had been ripped-off since he'd signed up for a Hero game and not improv theater. Diceless HERO not billed as such? Huh. Do you mind indicating what it was, if you find out? Or just PM me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing Diceless HERO not billed as such? Huh. Do you mind indicating what it was' date=' if you find out? Or just PM me?[/quote'] If Edsel's report was accurate, it wasn't HERO at all; no character sheets, just theatre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing If Edsel's report was accurate' date=' it wasn't HERO at all; no character sheets, just theatre.[/quote'] Yes but Edsel said that Eosin "signed-up for a Hero game" which implies it must have been accredited as such, so I wonder which one it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirViss Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing This is Eosin's Report. His comments on the "theater" game are the last 3rd of the post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing Thanks much! Can't rep you as I'm in the 24-hour rep zone, but shall. I did realize he posted this but didn't think to go back... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing Ah, yes, okay, I did see this and upon rereading it reminds me. That is too bad and shouldn't have been billed as HERO, I would agree, but it brings up, to me, an interesting aspect in that for some people the character creation concepts are HERO, by themselves, although in this case since they didn't even use a sheet it sounds like a sheer lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed-F Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing I'll agree that he should at least have had the courtesy to advertise what kind of game he was running. And even diceless RPGs tend to have character sheets. If I went to a game billed as HERO I'd expect at least some crunch, even if it were diceless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eosin Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing Ah' date=' yes, okay, I did see this and upon rereading it reminds me. That is too bad and shouldn't have been billed as HERO, I would agree, but it brings up, to me, an interesting aspect in that for some people the character creation concepts are HERO, by themselves, although in this case since they didn't even use a sheet it sounds like a sheer lie.[/quote'] For the record, the game had as much in common with a Hero Game as Marlin Perkins Mutual Of Omahas', Wild Kingdom (that sentence should purposefully not make a lick of sense and leave you scratching your head in dumb-founded wonder of where exactly I pulled this from). The worst part was that the GM told me that he purposefully deicieved everyone at the "table" so that he could be in the room with his friends rather than in the LARP section, and it was a LARP. I have voiced a complaint to Tina and plan on following up through the Gencon system. The game itself didn't bother me; the cavalier attitude about spending my time for me - and without my consent - triggers a rage brighter than a burning sun. I suspect that the felon in question must me a school teacher because only someone used to deciding activities for others ... I am getting mad again. I'll stop and just take this to people who can hopefully solve the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eosin Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing Diceless HERO not billed as such? Huh. Do you mind indicating what it was' date=' if you find out? Or just PM me?[/quote'] PS - It was "Dark Reflections" in the Saturday noon slot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Re: Champions Diceless Role-playing For the record' date=' the game had as much in common with a Hero Game as Marlin Perkins Mutual Of Omahas', Wild Kingdom (that sentence should purposefully not make a lick of sense and leave you scratching your head in dumb-founded wonder of where exactly I pulled this from). (snip)[/quote'] Well, it tells me we are probably in the same general age bracket! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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