Hit Locations

[Ferret]

I think that the hit locations modifers for aiming are just to high. Unless I'm reading the rules wrong. Your gun toting Zombie slaying normals or even military vets. Are all at a minus 8 to hit the zombie in the head. Which means everyone is going quickly become lunch. Which is fine for the NPC's but not so great for the player characters. I was going to use the gurps aiming rules instead which is only a minus 5 to target the head. Any suggestions or idea's would be welcome. One thought is that if the target is at close range you could reduce the location penalty. Any ideas???

Ferret........

[RDU Neil]

Re: Hit Locations

 

I think that the hit locations modifers for aiming are just to high. Unless I'm reading the rules wrong. Your gun toting Zombie slaying normals or even military vets. Are all at a minus 8 to hit the zombie in the head. Which means everyone is going quickly become lunch. Which is fine for the NPC's but not so great for the player characters. I was going to use the gurps aiming rules instead which is only a minus 5 to target the head. Any suggestions or idea's would be welcome. One thought is that if the target is at close range you could reduce the location penalty. Any ideas???

Ferret........

 

On thing to think about... RE: Zombies... is that they have a 0 DCV for all intents and purposes. DCV is assumed to be natural, nimble movement (based on DEX) that occurs inherently during combat.

 

Zombies don't do this. They don't try to move away from attacks, they don't flinch or bob and weave... they just shamble along. From that point of view, given a -8... essentially gives them an 8 DCV vs. shots to the head. This seems about right... since a normal person shooting on the run i.e. with their own full DCV, would need a 6 or less to hit... but if they stop and aim (brace and set) this goes up to a 9 or less... and this is 10 DEX no levels kinda guy. Take a trained cop or a spec-ops type, and you could quickly get up to an 11- or better to take that shot. I have no problem with this... since having done some shootiong, hitting a head sized target at 10 feet isn't a sure thing... especially if it is moving (however slowly) and you are under threat of being eaten alive.

 

To reflect this... buy zombies with a 1 DEX... +5 to HtH in order to hit, but very, very easy to BE hit.

 

If you get into trying to make actual headshots in "realistic" gun combat between live foes... well, all I've got to say is that there is a reason that cops and soldiers train for torso shots. It is really hard to hit a limb or head when the person is at all aware and moving.

[Zed-F]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Well...

 

Can you blow one in half with a shotgun? Or smash them to pieces with a hand-to-hand weapon? If so, does that render it basically combat-ineffective, even if the pieces can still move a little? Maybe a head shot is not always required to deal with a zombie.

 

If, as a matter of genre, the only way the PCs can get rid of a zombie is to shoot it in the head, and you're expecting them to do that on a regular basis, but they aren't snipers with a bunch of PSLs vs. head shots... then yeah, you might want to make it easier for them. If the zombies are sufficiently slow movers that they can't dodge effectively, you could rule that they are permanently at 1/2 DCV, and include hit location penalties in that.

 

On the other hand, I thought the whole idea in most zombie survival horror was to avoid the zombies, rather than fight them, because you can never kill all of them.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hit Locations

 

I like RDU Neil's idea of giving zombies a 0DCV, it represent the genre well, zombies never try to get out of the way of an attack and thus never defend. In fact, their mindless pursuit of human flesh mirrors this.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Studies of anatomy seem to indicate that the head takes up about 1/8 the height of the human body and about 1/2 the width of the shoulders. Assuming the frontal area of a human is rectangular, this would mean the head takes up about 1/16 of the total area of the body. Since each halving of area (area, not height as in Growth, Shrinking, Range, etc.) should equate to approximately a -1 OCV, this would indicate a physically appropriate modifier of -4. You could easily make it -5 or -6 to account for the fact that the human body is not a very good rectangle.

 

However, there are other factors involved. One is that the head is our major center of perception so we tend to be more aware of things heading straight toward our head. It is also instintual to move or cover the head whenever you feel in danger.

 

And, this being a game, the biggest issue is without a doubt game balance. If it is really easy to hit the head, then just about everyone is going to be doubling Body damage after defenses and using a Stun Multiplier of x5, for example. So if you make it easier to hit the head, you might consider reducing the effects of doing so. Unless, of course, you want everything to be extremely lethal, and you want players to be constantly making lethally targetted shots.

[Zed-F]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Note, if zombies never try to avoid being shot, does that make every attack against them automatically a surprise attack? Surprise attacks cause the target to be at 1/2 DCV and also halve called shot penalties. So this could pretty much be built into the system already if you rule that all attacks vs. zombies are surprise attacks.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hit Locations

 

A 5 CV spread seems pretty easy to attain. Rather than put 6 OCV levels into adding 3 DC to my Greatsword, I'd be far better served using them for OCV and taking a head shot with an effective +1 OCV.

 

[Mind you, 8 levels to add +4 DC vs Head Shot at no modifier isn't much better]

[BNakagawa]

Re: Hit Locations

 

If you're going for the slow, shambling sort of zombies, then putting them at a permanent 1/2 dcv state reduces the head shot penalty to -4, which along with a lousy dcv makes this a very hittable target for the average gunbunny.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hit Locations

 

If you're going for the slow' date=' shambling sort of zombies, then putting them at a permanent 1/2 dcv state reduces the head shot penalty to -4, which along with a lousy dcv makes this a very hittable target for the average gunbunny.[/quote']

No, not really. The called shots subtract from your OCV, not add to the defenders DCV, so it's still a -8, you're just aiming at a lower target number (DCV4 turns into DCV2).

 

As for the Suprise Attack angle, I'd personally say no - Zombies know an attack is incoming, they just don't care.

 

As for the whole mess in general, vs 0DCV, assume PCs can reach an OCV of 6 or so on average (if you're playing close "normal") you're hitting at a 9-. Not great odds shooting into a pile of them but it certainly ups the drama factor of the game - how many times do we see the protaganist shoot a Zombie a couple of times before landing that head shot? moderately often. Later on in the movies they always get the head shots in though - mostly as dramatic effect.

 

If you can peep in a total OCV bonus of 8 (OCV, Skill Levels, PSLs vs Headshots if allowed) then you're hitting the head 62% (is that right for 11-?) of the time, good hunting all around!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Actually G-A, if the target is surprised, the penalties for called shots are halved. It's part of the modifiers you get.

 

Putting a zombie at DCV 0 is silly. A HEX has a DCV of 3! Do the zombies actually move into the path of attacks? I'd simply apply to them a simple Physical Limitation: Cannot Fight Defensively (Frequently, Greatly Imparing) 15 points. It would mean that the zombie is always considered out of combat for the purpose of being attacked. They can attack, move and whatever else they do normally. So when attacking them, they will be at 1/2 DCV and all Hit Location aiming penalties are halved. Assuming a DEX of 10, they'll have a 2 DCV, giving your average a base of 6 to hit the head. Not bad odds, and seems to reflect the accuracy of the folks in the movies.

[Kirby]

Re: Hit Locations

 

I'd say give sombies a 3 DCV or less, possibly even a 1. Zombies are always attacking last. Their strength is in numbers. And the fact it's gross when they start gnawing on the guts of the person next to you.

 

For surprise, I wouldn't allow it. How are you surprising them? Saying Boo? No. Simply because Zombies aren't trying to dodge, doesn't mean you're surprising them (and you can't keep surprising someone in combat). If this were true, then lots of bricks would be affected by this interpretation. "Well, Invulnerable Man isn't trying to dodge any attacks. I bet he'll be surprised when I shoot him." I don't buy it, myself.

 

I say: Give zombies a 1-3 DEX, a 2 SPD and then levels for grab (because they don't do anything else, except bite). YMMV.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Dude! Isn't everyone just a little off-topic? I think the question was about Hit Location Penalties, not zombies. The zombie slayers were mentioned merely as an example. Also mentioned were, "military vets," so I don't think limiting the discussion to zombies alone is very productive.

[Kirby]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Hey! We grab a theme and stick with it. Like peanut butter in the hair! Besides, "military vets" would be more of a defense, than DCV. Woe be to the bastard that tries to use a vet for defense in one of my games!

 

Now, back to zombies, Rob.

[Kirby]

Re: Hit Locations

 

As for gun-toting zombie slayers and military soldiers both getting a -8 to hit in the head, well yeah. It's just that the military soldier probably has PSLs to compensate.

 

Personally, I can hit a playing card at 50 feet with a pistol, no problem. My wife on the other hand can't. I've been in the Army and had my training. She however, hasn't. So while the difficulty is technically the same, I've more skill levels than she does.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Is the playing card aware of your intention to put a bullet in it?

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Well, if the hit penalities are too high, you can buy Targeting Skill Levels. +4 OCV with all attacks is 12 points. Not too expensive with a couple of adventures under the belt. That makes your basic head shot (on an non-zombie, at least) a -4, not bad if your OCV is consistantly 4 better than their DCV. Head shots are expensive since they do double damage.

 

Now, for the zombies. If you are doing your basic, endless horde of disposable zombies. Then you can give the zombies a physical limit of always being half DCV and called shots are half (or maybe even a flat -2).

 

You can also have fun with x2 BODY when hit with fast moving objects whether it is gunfire or being runover with a car or having heavy things dropped on them. (They go GOOSH!) Combined with the fact that they can suffer a lot of "minimum" damage with only a loss of a limb, an eye, or a noticable hole in the chest.

[Kirby]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Is the playing card aware of your intention to put a bullet in it?

The facecards are, but the suicide king doesn't care.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Is the playing card aware of your intention to put a bullet in it?

Interesting. As I mentioned above the penalty based purely on the size of the head should probably be somewhere around -4. That actually coincides with the, "Surprised Out of Combat," or, "Completely Immobilized," Hit Location Penalty. So perhaps we could say conversely that a target which moves as if it were in combat can double penalties to hit specific locations.

 

But the card should still have a penalty purely based upon size.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Would it get a higher CV if it was?

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Well, ignore the special effect for the moment. Head shots double damage and give a max stun multiplier. And they often ignore all armor as well.

 

An OCV level costs two points. Even less if your GM is mad enough to use some of the options from DC.

 

So, how many points should you pay for the ability to double the damage you with an attack?

 

More than 16, I would think. More than the 24 you’d pay for 8 3pt skill levels, or 8 targeting skill levels, as well.

 

In short, it’s a game balance thing. Even then, balance is swung pretty far in the ‘head shots are too EASY’ direction, to my mind.

 

Of course, you could always just not use hit locations, and call any high damage hit, especially one that used skill levels to boost damage, a ‘head shot’ . . .

 

---

Shouldn’t those giant floating goblin head monsters take double damage from everything?

 

And what if the zombies were miltary vets in their pre-zombie days?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hit Locations

 

For a particular genre then modifying the chance to hit a particular location is fine, but a couple of points:

 

1. You can't complan when the non-zombie opposition total you with an easy head shot.

 

2. Even in most zombie moveies, not every shot that hits is a head shot.

 

3. A head shot gives a 1 in 3 chance of hitting the head for only -4 to hit.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Hit Locations

 

I'm not sure why the Zombie called shot to the head thing matters that much to be honest. Is this a case where Zombies are built as 75% Physical Damage Reduction (Resistant) to all shots not taken in the head? I can understand in that case why you are talking about this.

 

But if it is a case of taking things down faster (in this case zombies) than if a player wants to do that, they have PSL to cover it.

 

Tight Shot I: +6 PSL vs. Hit Locations with [Weapon of Choice]. Total Cost: 9 points.

 

Tight Shot II: +6 PSL vs. Hit Locations with Pistols. Total Cost: 12 points.

 

Braced Shot: +6 PSL vs. Hit Locations with Pistols; Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2), Requires Both Hands (-1/4). Total Cost: 9 points.

[Kirby]

Re: Hit Locations

 

So' date=' how many points [b']should[/b] you pay for the ability to double the damage you with an attack?

 

More than 16, I would think. More than the 24 you’d pay for 8 3pt skill levels, or 8 targeting skill levels, as well.

 

In short, it’s a game balance thing. Even then, balance is swung pretty far in the ‘head shots are too EASY’ direction, to my mind.

Just as a reminder, simply having penalty skill levels doesn't guarantee a head-shot. You still have to hit the target, first. That seems to have gotten lost in this thread.

[Mentor]

Re: Hit Locations

 

I'm not sure why the Zombie called shot to the head thing matters that much to be honest. Is this a case where Zombies are built as 75% Physical Damage Reduction (Resistant) to all shots not taken in the head? I can understand in that case why you are talking about this.

 

But if it is a case of taking things down faster (in this case zombies) than if a player wants to do that, they have PSL to cover it.

 

Tight Shot I: +6 PSL vs. Hit Locations with [Weapon of Choice]. Total Cost: 9 points.

 

Tight Shot II: +6 PSL vs. Hit Locations with Pistols. Total Cost: 12 points.

 

Braced Shot: +6 PSL vs. Hit Locations with Pistols; Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2), Requires Both Hands (-1/4). Total Cost: 9 points.

"Resident Evil" zombies just keep coming if you blow their arm off or something, so head shots are apparantly all that stop them. I think that running from hordes of zombies while occasionaly head shooting the ones that get to close, automatically killing them, pretty accurately reflects the movies.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Hit Locations

 

I'm not sure why the Zombie called shot to the head thing matters that much to be honest. Is this a case where Zombies are built as 75% Physical Damage Reduction (Resistant) to all shots not taken in the head? I can understand in that case why you are talking about this.

 

It's a vulnerability you are taking advantage of.

 

Zombies are 75% Damage Reduction but have a _Vulnerability_ to head shots. The Vulnerability means that they don't get 75% Reduction to head wounds.

 

Or words to that effect. Not from any book; just felt right.