No Recovery in in Conbat

[lrojas]

Hi all,

 

i have a couple of questions. While runing a Heroic campaign using only Sidekick, i would like a mechanic to represent characters not recovering stun during combat, only after they exit combat, in other words REC only works out of combat or inside combat for END. How could i represent this?

 

Also, i am moving from d20 modern and i would like to know, how to represent the Base attack bonus? i figured that the defensive bonus can be represented with the skill Combat Skill Level (Only DCV Mod ), How can i represent the BAB of D20 Modern here, basically a OCV that affects both HTH and Range Attack, but does not affect DCV.

 

Hats off to you guys, and thanks in advance for the answers.

 

Luis R. Rojas

[Edsel]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

For the STUN thing I'd just impose a house rule that says you can't recover STUN while in combat. You might still want to allow post phase 12 recovery of STUN since that is supposed to normally be an automatic recovery.

 

You can buy 5-point levels for a +1 DCV but, according to all I have seen, a 5-point +1 OCV is non-existant. I believe it would be legal to buy an 8-point +1 All Combat level and then apply a Limitation: Only with OCV (-1/2). That would make the Real Cost 5.33 points which would round to 5. Of course if you buy multiple levels the rounding will start working against you. (+2 would cost 11 points, +3 is 16 points, etc.)

[Zed-F]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

Or you could ask the GM about buying +1 OCV levels for 5 points each. Most GMs will probably let you do this since you can buy +1 DCV levels, even if it's not an official construction.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

Hey luis, thought you had dropped off the face of the earth.

 

Hi all,

 

i have a couple of questions. While runing a Heroic campaign using only Sidekick, i would like a mechanic to represent characters not recovering stun during combat, only after they exit combat, in other words REC only works out of combat or inside combat for END. How could i represent this?

 

Just say "REC only works out of combat for STUN".

 

That is just a house rule. Of course, fights will be over really really fast, but if thats what you want then there you go.

 

Also, i am moving from d20 modern and i would like to know, how to represent the Base attack bonus? i figured that the defensive bonus can be represented with the skill Combat Skill Level (Only DCV Mod ), How can i represent the BAB of D20 Modern here, basically a OCV that affects both HTH and Range Attack, but does not affect DCV.

 

8 point All Combat Levels; OCV Only (-1/2) = +1 OCV Ranged and HtH; Real Cost: 5 points

[prestidigitator]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

I just equate +2 Base Attack Bonus to +1 Overall Combat Skill Level. It's nice and simple that way. You'll just get a headache if you try to convert everything exactly all the time.

 

I'm not sure how defense bonuses work, but if it is like D20 Star Wars you could make +2 Defense equate to +1 DCV CSL or use Combat Luck (or some mixture of the two).

[lrojas]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

Hey KS, havent seen you in a while.. not even on MSN. Changes in my work have kept my gaming to a minimun but is nice to see you here still

 

To all others, thanks for all the answers.

 

Luis R. Rojas

 

PS: KS why dont you msg me on msn so we can catch up? you can reach a my old msn address shadow at codetel dot net dot do "shadow@codetel.net.do"

[Fitz]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

I run a house rule a possible variation you might like to try: there are no free Post-Segment-12 Recoveries, and you can't Recover END (or STUN) in any Phase in which you use END (or take STUN, if you're recovering STUN). Any character who wants to Recover therefore has to make sure that they're able to stop for a moment to take a Recovery without being walloped.

 

I picture it as the characters staggering away from the fight for a moment to stand with their hands on their knees red-faced and wheezing

[Super Squirrel]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

Very interesting rule.

[Funksaw]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

For just one character, you could actually have them sell their base REC back to zero, then have them buy -up- REC back to that level with the limitation "no recovery in combat" which I'd list as a (-3/4) or (-1).

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

On the d20 to Hero thing be a little careful in applying levels etc to simulate base attack bonus: 3d6 has a bell curve that makes even small advantages quite significant - far more so than 1d20. OTOH, if you want to you could keep on using a d20 instead of 3d6 (there's a few threads about this on the boards if you search).

 

The biggest single differennce (IMO) between 'basic' d20 combat and 'basic' Hero combat is the fact that d20 uses an armour class to simulate both difficulty in hitting AND resistance to damage, whereas Hero seperates the two. Theoretically this has the same effect in the long term but in practice there can be major differences - a knife in Hero might never seriously damage an armoured character whereas a sword almost certainly could and would.

 

For any change you make (like the 'no recoveries in combat' rule) so long as you make the change for everyone then it should not really disturb game balance. I like Fitz' house rule, it certainly emulates that feel at the end of a boxing match where the two grizzled warriors stagger round trying to find the energy to throw the next punch.

[lrojas]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

You guys are great, and if i wish there was some way for us to gather in a VLR ( Virtual living room ) and play some games

 

All the sugestions are great, my purpose for not taking recovery during combat is that is too much housekeeping for ppl new to the game. In short i am leaning more to a hybrid between "no REC during combat" and "Halve STUN Damage".

 

The characters are in the Firefly Universe, meaning lots of bullets flying around. Perhaps i just need to make all the guns with some limitation like "-1/4 Does Half of STUN Damage" or "-1/2 does only body" or some such.

 

One more question, i know is probably right there in my face but, is there a rule that hinders your ability to be efective in combat? like if i have been wounded i get a penalty to my DCV, OCV and perhaps skill rolls?

 

Liek you are at half body, you have -1 to all rolls.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

It probably bears noting that a "no recovery in combat" rule does devalue the Recovery stat quite a bit. You're describing a Heroic game, so let's look at a SPD 3 character with 13 STR and 13 CON (not too great, but above uman norm). He has a 6 REC. We'll also give him a 3 SPD, in the range for heroic games.

 

He'll have 25 STUN and 30 END (again, not huge but in the game for a heroic character).

 

If he can only recover out of combat, he can go from 1 STUN to full STUN in 1 turn (three phases, plus post segment 12). Since he's out of combat, there's no real time opressure, and being able to recover all STUN and END in well under 30 seconds is quite adequate. I certainly wouldn't pay p[oints to raise my REC in such a game.

 

The Gamist in me says sell REC back and use the points for something else. Even at a 1 REC, I get 4 points back in a 12 second turn. It takes well under 2 minutes to be back in the game.

 

There are some optional rules that can mitigate this, especially long term END, but using them would defeat your purpose by adding more bookkeeping back to the system.

 

Wounds Impairing Characters

 

While "the character has more difficulty succeeding as he gets more wounded" has a realism appeal to it, it has two problems. First, it's not really what happens in the source material - the Hero commonly fights back from a huge disadvantage and wins. Second, it creates a "death spiral". The first character hit has penalties to fight back, making him easier to put down. This can be frustratring for the first guy hit, and tends to lead to inflation in the ability to hit first, and avoid being hit - ever - in return.

 

The base rules include Stunning, which imposes a huge drawback when a good hit gets through, albeit a brief one.

 

Turning to optional rules, the system has the Wounding rules, but these don't impose penalties. Rather, they provide a short-term combat disadvantage.

 

The Impairing and Disabling rules provide longer-term effects when a character takes a really bad hit. It also adds some more long-term bookkeeping, of course. So would a "Down X% BOD = -Y to rolls" rule, of course. The more complexities you add, the more bookkeeping you get.

[The Monster]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

Personally, I'd avoid reducing guns damage, either BODY or STUN. They're underpowered as it is - using Hit Locations helps, but when you look at it, you can't kill someone with a single .44-magnum shot without the location bonus.

 

The way to recreate TV (and real) gunfights is to *dodge* and *cover* - like real people do! Seriously, one of the biggest tactical options available to Hero characters is "abort to Dodge" and "Dive for Cover." People who don't use these - even supers - are simply choosing the maneuver "Asking For It."

 

I always feel cheated as a GM when guns aren't scary, at least in anything approaching a normals campaign. If people aren't at least nervous about guns, then all the drama of thugs with guns is drained away.

[Silbeg]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

Personally' date=' I'd avoid reducing guns damage, either BODY or STUN. They're underpowered as it is - using Hit Locations helps, but when you look at it, you can't kill someone with a single .44-magnum shot without the location bonus. [/quote']

Sounds like the arguments I hear from a couple of my players, which isn't exactly true. Same arguments go for claims that a 10d6 EB isn't lethal, either.

 

What you are forgetting here are the bleeding rules. Now, while 7 BODY doesn't instantly kill someone, a gunshot wound rarely does, either. More typically, the person will bleed out, and have other systemic failures (never under estimate the critical nature of system shock).

[The Monster]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

No I'm not forgetting bleeding rules or anything else (I *do* wish people weren't so d*mn eager to assume I'm stupid and ignorant!). Technically, you aren't dead when you hit zero or -1 BODY, so even an attack that does do 10 BODY to a norm isn't *instantly* lethal.

 

But that entirely misses my point anyway. What I wanted to say is that guns should be respected, from a dramatic point of view. Hero has little in the way of reflecting how much something really hurts - there's almost no rules for wound penalties, so a hero can fight largely unimpaired until he keels over wihtin seconds of dying (i.e., negative BODY). I don't have a problem with that per se - they're heroes, after all. But it does mean that it's too easy for people to fall into a mode where numbers rule: if I know his pistol only does 1d6K, and I've got 10 BODY, then I can feel almost no fear - he's not gonna kill me, and it's hardly likely I'll be KO'd, and not really likely I'll even be stunned. So I can just try to jump him and suck up the bullet. The numbers work out, but you lose the whole flavor of the threat a gun provides. If you start reducing the power of guns in a Hero game (and, by the way, I don't advocate either decreasing or increasing their stats), you lose way too much flavor and realism (even comic-book or pulp realism) for my taste. Or, more likely, you end up just giving the thugs bigger guns to make the same point. I'm not arguing for instant kills; I'm arguing for flavor and drama consistent with the genre.

[Tiree]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

Well look at the world of Firefly - you have Malcolm Reynolds: He has been shot several times, and has had a sword run through him TWICE!

 

A good RP'er will show his character having issues while having a sword stuck through him. But common sense and GM inteverention should also give the player some negatives if needed (Based on the kind of Game the GM wants)

[ghost-angel]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

No I'm not forgetting bleeding rules or anything else (I *do* wish people weren't so d*mn eager to assume I'm stupid and ignorant!). Technically, you aren't dead when you hit zero or -1 BODY, so even an attack that does do 10 BODY to a norm isn't *instantly* lethal.

 

But that entirely misses my point anyway. What I wanted to say is that guns should be respected, from a dramatic point of view. Hero has little in the way of reflecting how much something really hurts - there's almost no rules for wound penalties, so a hero can fight largely unimpaired until he keels over wihtin seconds of dying (i.e., negative BODY). I don't have a problem with that per se - they're heroes, after all. But it does mean that it's too easy for people to fall into a mode where numbers rule: if I know his pistol only does 1d6K, and I've got 10 BODY, then I can feel almost no fear - he's not gonna kill me, and it's hardly likely I'll be KO'd, and not really likely I'll even be stunned. So I can just try to jump him and suck up the bullet. The numbers work out, but you lose the whole flavor of the threat a gun provides. If you start reducing the power of guns in a Hero game (and, by the way, I don't advocate either decreasing or increasing their stats), you lose way too much flavor and realism (even comic-book or pulp realism) for my taste. Or, more likely, you end up just giving the thugs bigger guns to make the same point. I'm not arguing for instant kills; I'm arguing for flavor and drama consistent with the genre.

You stated you weren't forgetting or leaving out rules but...

 

you then go on to state a Character will simply look at the numbers and go "I won't be dead." and take the bullet, because there are no penalties for it.

 

But there are:

Wounding Rules, EGO Roll to take any offensive action that phase @ -1 per 2BODY taken.

Bleeding Rules, a character may continue to take BODY with continued actions, thus increasing the effects of Wounds.

Impairing & Disabling should be used in conjuction with the Hit Location Rules, but you can modify it to not use that if you don't want.

 

Seems to me the System has a good number of rules in place to deter people from "taking it" all the time. And remember, you may not be Dead at -1Body bit without help you quickly will be.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

This is my suggestion for Recoveries:

 

1. Simple Actions (movement, STR attacks, etc.) don't cost END. Only ask characters to track exceptional uses of END (pushing, powers, etc.).

2. Post-Seg 12 only recovers STUN

 

People can still take recoveries in combat. A Recovery occurs at the end of the segment in which it was taken. If the character spends END or suffers any STUN or BODY damage the recovery is disrupted. Additionally, during this time he is at 1/2 DCV and Placed Shot penalties are halved.

 

So this means that the only thing you are tracking at the end of a turn is STUN recovery. I would also only do this for characters and named villains - goons won't recover at all.

 

Given the penalties for taking a recovery in combat I don't see why anyone would unless they were perfectly safe. It really is a non-issue. Unless you were playing it that they could still take damage while recovering it just doesn't seem like something you have to eliminate.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

Not tracking END for simple actions and not getting a Post-12 END recovery is about a wash in heroic level games. 3 SPD x 1-2 END per PHA = 3-6 END per turn, which is about the average REC for a hero. It certainly is close enough to call it even, and then track only exceptional uses of END.

 

This is how I run my fantasy game and it makes things easier in terms of bookkeeping but then doesn't really change the net effect of the END tracking system.

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

No I'm not forgetting bleeding rules or anything else (I *do* wish people weren't so d*mn eager to assume I'm stupid and ignorant!). Technically, you aren't dead when you hit zero or -1 BODY, so even an attack that does do 10 BODY to a norm isn't *instantly* lethal.

 

But that entirely misses my point anyway. What I wanted to say is that guns should be respected, from a dramatic point of view. Hero has little in the way of reflecting how much something really hurts - there's almost no rules for wound penalties, so a hero can fight largely unimpaired until he keels over wihtin seconds of dying (i.e., negative BODY). I don't have a problem with that per se - they're heroes, after all. But it does mean that it's too easy for people to fall into a mode where numbers rule: if I know his pistol only does 1d6K, and I've got 10 BODY, then I can feel almost no fear - he's not gonna kill me, and it's hardly likely I'll be KO'd, and not really likely I'll even be stunned. So I can just try to jump him and suck up the bullet. The numbers work out, but you lose the whole flavor of the threat a gun provides. If you start reducing the power of guns in a Hero game (and, by the way, I don't advocate either decreasing or increasing their stats), you lose way too much flavor and realism (even comic-book or pulp realism) for my taste. Or, more likely, you end up just giving the thugs bigger guns to make the same point. I'm not arguing for instant kills; I'm arguing for flavor and drama consistent with the genre.

 

Well I AM stupid and ignorant and pretty arrogant too, so assume away, everyone.

 

Personally I do not think guns are underpowered in Hero, although I do sympathise with your '1d6 of killing ain't going to kill me' POV, and it isn't if you are playing in a superhero game with no additional rules. In a grittier game then the additional rules cut in. I know very little about guns apart from what I've read, but it seems to me that, in 'reality' an awful lot of rounds need to be fired on average, before someone dies. I think many Herophiles have a somewhat exagerated view of the power, or at least the effect, of Mr Colt's equaliser.

 

My understanding of gunshot injuries is that an 'instant kill' is only likely to occur if you hit the head or heart, other than that it tends to be the bleeding that gets you. I've always played (in my grittier games) that a disabling shot to the head or vitals kills. So, in fact, a 1d6 pistol can instant kill a character of up to 12 BODY if they have no resistant defences. In gritty games you have to work hard to justify a higher BODY score. Impairing shots to the head or vitals (and this is in the rules) can be considered to kill mooks (although I don't think the rules calls them mooks ) - you can always extend this to Heroes too. There is a 14.3% chance of being hit in the head or vitals on any randomly determined hit location roll. This would mean that anything that can do 3 or more BODY damage is a serious threat you really have to take seriously.

 

Ultimately though you have to decide what you want the ground rules to be - we have PC death on a regular basis, or we don't, and set your character construction and optional rules tabs accordingly.

 

Point of order on the bleeding rules: if you stop and sit still when you've been hit you will take (on average) 1 point of extra BODY for a small wound before it stops, or about 1 point per 72 seconds if you keep going - if you continue acting the bleeding does not stop. If you hit negative BODY then the rate of bleeding increases to 1 per turn PLUS normal bleeding. If you want 'realism'then assume that if the character takes strenuous action that bleeding damage calculates BODY normally (i.e. 0 for a roll of 1, 2 for a roll of 6 and 1 otherwise). This means that someone with even a 1 BODY wound and a starting BODY of 10 will be dead in about 12 minutes if they don't stop and rest.

 

Call me old fashioned but that doesn't seem that far off reality. In fact it is probably rather harsher than reality in most cases.

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Recovery in in Conbat

 

Not tracking END for simple actions and not getting a Post-12 END recovery is about a wash in heroic level games. 3 SPD x 1-2 END per PHA = 3-6 END per turn, which is about the average REC for a hero. It certainly is close enough to call it even, and then track only exceptional uses of END.

 

This is how I run my fantasy game and it makes things easier in terms of bookkeeping but then doesn't really change the net effect of the END tracking system.

 

If you are going to effectively ignore normal expenditure of END then you may want to make figured END CONx1 and up the cost to a point per.

 

The other way to do it is to apply a limitation to REC to make it work once per minute (only a -1/4 I'm afraid), which is probably more realistic: assuming I have 20 END 4 REC and have a SPD of 2 and I do something that uses all my END up, it probably takes me more than 18 seconds to fully recover . In fact it usually takes about an hour and a couple of pints