How important is heroism in your campaign?

[Powerhouse]

Just curious. I'm more of a writer than GM so it's easier for me to have a certain tone than an experience defined by several players and a GM. That said, I was curious about how important is it for your characters to be heroic?

 

I got the idea from the current Infinite Crisis where DC claims they are going to remind everyone what is really means to be a hero. It made me think about the Iron Age stuff out there (such as Authority) where it's ok to kill the bad guys, the ends justifies the means, and heroes don't always stand for something.

 

My writing tends to put heroism upfront with views that are mostly black and white: yes there are some shades of gray and sometimes it's tough to see what the right course is but there *is* a good and there is an evil: it's not just a point of view. I'm a little like Chris Claremont who celebrates his heroes and reinforces their morality. A cute line for a negotiation between the X-babies and Mojo (an interdimensional wheeler-dealer who wants BIG ratings).

 

Mojo: how do I know you'll come back with me just because you said so?

 

Storm: we're heroes

 

Mojo: Good enough for anyone!

 

Even the bad guys acknowledge it! A personal line from my own fanfic when the Knights were questions about going to an impossible battle: "Being a hero has never been about fighting the battle you know you can win; it's about fighting the battle you must because you know that no one else can."

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

That's actually a mjor focus of the FH game I'm in (PbP) - that our characters, thanks to a curse on the land, are the only heroes in the world. We're always philosophizing about what makes us heroes, how a hero behaves, stuff like that. Of course, having found out that the LAST heroes are the ones responsible for this curse, my character is reluctant to fit that mold, but she still wants to do the right thing.

[Nucleon]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

Just curious. I'm more of a writer than GM so it's easier for me to have a certain tone than an experience defined by several players and a GM. That said' date=' I was curious about how important is it for your characters to be heroic?[/quote']

 

Well, Nucleon usually runs silver- and bronze-age campaigns, and He rewards players with experience when they are, say, stating the obvious or spouting a genre cliché. Heroism is one of these things He prodigally rewards. As a result, players are more "heroic" than in a typical Shadowrun or Ars Magica campaign.

 

I got the idea from the current Infinite Crisis where DC claims they are going to remind everyone what is really means to be a hero. It made me think about the Iron Age stuff out there (such as Authority) where it's ok to kill the bad guys, the ends justifies the means, and heroes don't always stand for something.

 

There are such things as "proactive heroism". And there must be a fee to pay for it as well.

 

At the end of the day, heroism is the hability to put everything on the line for a un-interested cause. Most player heroes do that allright. In fact, they do it to the point that even when we tried to play a vilain campaign, all "vilains" in the group turned "good".

 

My writing tends to put heroism upfront with views that are mostly black and white: yes there are some shades of gray and sometimes it's tough to see what the right course is but there *is* a good and there is an evil: it's not just a point of view.

 

Is there, Mortal?

 

Nucleon's universe is mostly shades of grey. True blinding light or pitch-black darkness strike more in a grey setting.

 

Even the master vilain, after a demonstration of power and a terryfying speech, faces the mirror after he pull the mask off, alone in his high-tech abode.

 

Even the hero can be subject to a revenge frenzy of infinite violence. There is no real bad cops; only cops who have a bad day.

 

And then there is a real occasion for a soul to show true colours; One occasion for infite good, or one for infite interest.

 

[TheRavenIs]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

Ok in the game I am in right now we have multiple teams and age group for the C's.

 

We have a teen group at an Xavier like school, they are all being taught the way of the hero. Atlanta, and the school is know to the public.

 

One is in Atlantic City, in our reality called Paradise City. They are like a family, they are true heroes, but with an edge. Some of the heroes have killed, and some of those are getting used to doing that.

 

Another is in NYC, it is a group of mostly heroic types. Only one of the C's is questionable but he's designed to be the dark, semi-loner type. He's a cyborg.

 

Another is in Chicago, that team is very heroic. But one of the PC's has a probleam, he got zapped by Tag from Clown, now the PC is in love with Random, in our world called Gyspy.

 

We also have a small group of C's that are 'lost in space'. The PC's ended up in the middle of a galatic war and had to be the ones to stop it. So they are true heroes. In that same area we have others that are not heroes, persay but thay can be heroic. Others that are but looking for a way to stop a threat they don't know the full power of. Others are looking for a way home.

 

So I'd say that in the games I'm playing in and not running, being a hero is the main thing. The ones that haven't been acting the part are starting to pay a price for it. Our GM is using the ways they have acted to make them be very unconfortable in many ways

[Powerhouse]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

Is there, Mortal?

 

I think that we are actually on the same page here.

 

Even the master vilain, after a demonstration of power and a terryfying speech, faces the mirror after he pull the mask off, alone in his high-tech abode.

 

I think that's a bit black and white actually in that he IS evil and realizes this in his soul. In a world with many shades of gray, it becomes easier to explain away his actions or take away the responsibility of his actions as being incapable of being judged.

 

Acknowledge that even evil can have good, and that redemption is possible, is possible in a mostly black and white world. When I refer to shades of gray, I'm referring more to the rationalization of evil.

 

Even the hero can be subject to a revenge frenzy of infinite violence. There is no real bad cops; only cops who have a bad day.

 

Nova is a good example of that. She's one of the heroes who had some serious issues, including a great deal of rage against the world and villains. She *will* kill and it's only the rest of the team who keeps her from that. But she is wrong and needs to be better, acknowledge the value of life, and be forgiving (even of herself).

 

And then there is a real occasion for a soul to show true colours; One occasion for infite good, or one for infite interest.

 

No arguement there.

 

 

Thanks for the response.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

Our campaign has always operated under the assumption that superhero is a compound word; and that its most important element is hero. Protecting innocents, teammates, and even the bad guys (in that order) from harm is what we do.

 

In one adventure a couple of years ago, our team's mentalist Prodigy (run by Mentor) prevented a young woman being used as a human sacrifice from being killed by interposing his own body between the intended virgin sacrifice and the sorcerer's ceremonial dagger. He jumped on top of the victim and the bad guy stabbed him in the back. Because the majority of Prodigy's defenses are Combat Luck, they didn't apply against the 3d6 HKA (since it was done deliberately) and he took something like 12 BODY after defenses. That was heroism.

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

This reminds me of an adventure I ran where the heroes had to face off with a villain who had decided that he would kill off all but the smartest 5% of the world's population, claiming that it would make the world a better place. Intellectual elitism at its highest, but he made a pretty good argument -- people who were smart could actually put aside petty differences and start working on solving the world's problems to make the planet a better place; world resources would no longer be wasted on consumerist trash that ends up in landfills six months after the energy to make it was expended; money & resources going toward war could be spent on scientific research to benefit all mankind instead of making corporations rich; etc.

 

One of the characters took the supervillain seriously enough to debate the issue. He pointed out (rather eloquently) that humanity should all have a chance to make things better by wanting to be better in the first place. Just because someone is highly intelligent, that doesn't automatically make them socially responsible or even willing to work for the betterment of others. He argued that the supervillain should be setting the example if he truly wanted humanity to be better. The supervillain could have spent the money and resources he used (stole) to build his death machine on something that truly would have made life better, but instead, he used it to make life infinitely worse for 95% of the world's population.

 

To be fair, the character aced his Oratory roll, but after being dressed down by one of the people he was intending to kill, the supervillain actually shut his own machine down and turned himself in to the authorities because he had been shamed by his own hypocracy.

 

That's what moralism can do for a character -- although it absolutely deep sixed this fantastic fight I had planned for the top of the Gateway Arch...

 

Matt "Still-a-little-miffed-about-that-end-around" Frisbee

[Storn]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

I'm gonna cut against the grain.

 

I do not like the Silver or Golden Age sense of morality. Nor do I like the Authority, which is the poster child for the Iron Age. That killing is just silly and overwrought to make it satire. Yup, Authority is not fan-boy angst... it is simply satire.

 

But if a villain is threatening my team-mates, innocents (entire cities, as happened), or in the middle of a superpowered firefight.... MOST of my PCs will drop said villain with all due extreme vengence at my disposal. I have a couple with Code vs. Killing... one is ex-Viper assassin and just can't bear it anymore.

 

In my mind, 12d6 normal attack is a LETHAL attack. It will hospitilize a 2 PD (or ED) normal.

 

However, it is downright irresponsible to let villains use lethal force and to treat them with kid gloves. Certainly there is protocol involved... I don't use my ALVD killing attack on the Cat Burgler who has never used violence in his crimes. Or on a gangster with a pistol when I know my force field is going to bounce his bullets.

 

But when 100s and 1000s are at stake... you better your bottom dollar I will fight mean, dirty and get the job done.

 

Despite that, my main PC of some 14 years, has killed maybe 10 foes. In hundreds of battles, using critical hit rules, he's killed 10. Once in cold blood, oh... but the circumstances!!!!

 

And he and I can sleep at night. Oh, by the way, that PC's favorite quote is "Can we talk about it?"... not exactly the first to pull the trigger. He has made hard, hard choices (choosing exile to save the gov't, turning his back on godhood, turning down Mentalla, and never letting Dr. Destoyer terrorize ever again.)... I think that is pretty heroic.

[Powerhouse]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

But if a villain is threatening my team-mates, innocents (entire cities, as happened), or in the middle of a superpowered firefight.... MOST of my PCs will drop said villain with all due extreme vengence at my disposal. I have a couple with Code vs. Killing... one is ex-Viper assassin and just can't bear it anymore.

 

That's a great point and something that will often come up: is it heroic to kill? Most of our greatest heroes, whether fiction or real, kill yet we don't hold this against them because their enemy was trying to kill them and the means they had were kinda limited to killing someone. What made them heroes was that they had the courage to defend the helpless.

 

Superheroes on the other hand have more options and as *super* heroes are held to even higher standards. Also, since they are aimed at kids, you don't want to tell the little ones that it's cool to kill. So therefore, supers don't kill normally. It's unrealistic normally but the ideal is a great one and helps to define the comic genre: we don't kill because heroes don't, because we have options that no one else has.

 

My take is that normally super heroes shouldn't kill since often they don't have to. It should be only a last resort to save people, rather than something that is bandied about for revenge, skewed sense of justice, etc.

 

My own team is divided among those who will kill and those who won't: makes for some interesting debates, that's for sure. I try to not potrayed those who will kill as less heroic although often they have to be turned aside either because they are enraged (Nova) or consider themselves a force of justice that includes judge, jury, and executioner (although to be fair, Tyr IS the Norse god of law).

 

The handwringing does get annoying admittedly. If Dr. D is going to hit that button to level they city, you'd BETTER bust out your best attack and live with the consequences later. His life is not worth that of millions and it's that silly idea that I can't stop him because I might kill him that gets to many.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

I'm gonna cut against the grain.

 

I do not like the Silver or Golden Age sense of morality. Nor do I like the Authority, which is the poster child for the Iron Age. That killing is just silly and overwrought to make it satire. Yup, Authority is not fan-boy angst... it is simply satire.

 

But if a villain is threatening my team-mates, innocents (entire cities, as happened), or in the middle of a superpowered firefight.... MOST of my PCs will drop said villain with all due extreme vengence at my disposal. I have a couple with Code vs. Killing... one is ex-Viper assassin and just can't bear it anymore.

 

In my mind, 12d6 normal attack is a LETHAL attack. It will hospitilize a 2 PD (or ED) normal.

 

However, it is downright irresponsible to let villains use lethal force and to treat them with kid gloves. Certainly there is protocol involved... I don't use my ALVD killing attack on the Cat Burgler who has never used violence in his crimes. Or on a gangster with a pistol when I know my force field is going to bounce his bullets.

This is something that depends largely on the campaign. Excessive killing is as out of place in a four-color campaign as kid gloves are in a hard nosed Iron-Age game. I suspect most campaigns lean towards the four-color because this is escapism for most players; and we want to play in a world that is somehow "better" than the real one.

 

I think just as important as "will I kill or not" should be the circumstances. Soldiers can kill in combat; killing captives is generally frowned upon (if not outright illegal). If the only way to stop Dr. Destroyer from pushing the button and killing millions, then most heroes would cut loose with their biggest attack regardless of CvK. That's quite different morally from having the octogenarian Albert Zerstoiten stripped out of his Destroyer armor and cutting his throat in cold blood.

[McCoy]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

"Being a hero has never been about fighting the battle you know you can win; it's about fighting the battle you must because you know that no one else can."

Very, very well said, and I owe you rep for that.

[Chuckg]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

I got the idea from the current Infinite Crisis where DC claims they are going to remind everyone what is really means to be a hero. It made me think about the Iron Age stuff out there (such as Authority) where it's ok to kill the bad guys' date=' the ends justifies the means, and heroes don't always stand for something.[/quote']

 

First off, my reflexive *twitch* comment to that screed from DC is "Why do you need to remind US what heroism means, YOU'RE the only ones who forgot!"

 

*ahem*

 

That out of the way, I consider heroism very important, and so does the DM of the longest-running Champions campaign I've been in (New Sentinels). And for both of us, it's the same reason -- we've GM'ed or slogged through too many games where all players (or all the other players) were running the Legion of Grim N' Gritty Wolverine Clones, or the Punisher Fan Club, or all ye other variants of the stereotypical vigilante hack-and-slasher. And, well, that many years has left us with scars.

 

Or, to put it more simply, we've let our players know that our campaigns have at least a Bronze Age morality tone, that any 'Rusty Sewer Grate Iron' (see "The Authority") character submission will be immediately desanced, and that if any already-existing characters decide to turn the Dark Side, they can rest assured that their accumulated karma *will* destroy them in dramatically appropriate fashions, and do it soon.

 

A similar reason is why one of my best friends no longer runs his Abyssal Exalted campaign. Since the Abyssal Exalted are villains -- you're running one of those, you're pretty much running a villain campaign, and mystical villains who seek to destroy Creation in the name of Oblivion at that -- it was entirely in-character and appropriate for all of *his* players to immediately start trying to push the envelope re: horrific physical, mental, and emotional cruelty.

 

It's just, despite the fact that some of them were doing extremely fine work, he found himself unable to be the DM for an entire team full of Angeluses without rapidly developing the urge to nuke all their characters with blazing solar fire. Hence, he wrapped up the game, as it was no fun for /him/.

 

Basically, I insist on heroism from my players because if there ain't enough of it in the game, *I'm* not having fun -- and given how much work DM'ing is, if I ain't having fun, I ain't DM'ing.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

Well said, Chuck!

 

Can't give you rep again yet.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

Seeming to echo ChuckG here....

 

Heroism is the reason I game. If it is not present in the game I run I quit running it. If it doesn't show up when I play (other than myself), I lose all interest in the game.

 

By example - when I ran a D&D 3.0 game at the game shop I worked at, to get enthusiam for the new system going, part of my prepared speech ran thusly: "No non-Good characters, every character has to be adventuring for the general good, in addition to any personal reasons. Also, think of the GM as a disembodied all powerful Paladin. React accordingly - if you do evil things XP will be deducted, if you continually do so, your characters will always be the target of the most powerful attacks of the monsters."

That pretty much sum up how I run my games.

[Storn]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

That's quite different morally from having the octogenarian Albert Zerstoiten stripped out of his Destroyer armor and cutting his throat in cold blood.

 

Is it? It was in context of: "If we put away Dr. Destroyer, he will find a way... or Stormshadow (who is a major unstoppable badass in RDU) will find a way to... spring him. And then we have to face this threat all over again. And now he has a grudge against me/us.". Was it heroic? Or just the stakes are SO high.

 

It was truly a despicable act that my PC did, I didn't even ahve the courage of my convictions and slit his throat. We stripped him of his armor and I invisiblely, teleknetically, stopped his heart. Only three CHARACTERS in RDU know that Dr. Destroyer did NOT die of "natural causes".

 

Yet, it has driven story for years, that event. I wouldn't change it one iota because of the drama and the storylines it has colored.

 

And is my PC unheroic? For that one act, perhaps. But it is muddied by the countless lives he has saved and is now in the forefront of saving again, this time, trying to save the entire solar system. And like I said, he sleeps at night just fine.

 

But was it good roleplaying? You betchya.

 

 

Listen, I'm all about heroic characters. But heroics to me are not about 4 color. That is heroism without risk or consequence. That doesn't have much interest to me.

 

I like having powerful characters who show restraint and thought. When it comes to take the kid gloves off... oh, they are off.... but I really like to avoid combat, lethal or non-lethal, as often as I can.... creating a bit of a quandry for my GM as I try to seek out political solutions often and its tough to just have a good brawl.

[sinanju]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

A similar reason is why one of my best friends no longer runs his Abyssal Exalted campaign. Since the Abyssal Exalted are villains -- you're running one of those' date=' you're pretty much running a villain campaign, and mystical villains who seek to destroy Creation in the name of Oblivion at that -- it was entirely in-character and appropriate for all of *his* players to immediately start trying to push the envelope re: horrific physical, mental, and emotional cruelty.[/quote']

 

I've been there!

 

The gaming group I used to play with (which has, sadly, slowly but irrevocably dissolved away) once got into a game of GURPS: Vampire the Masquerade. When asked whether we wanted to be Camarilla or Sabbat, this gang of hardened, ruthless rules lawyers and power-gamers never hesitated to say, "Sabbat!" And we then proceeded to design and play the most vicious, cutthroat, sadistic bunch of blood-sucking fiends it's ever been my displeasure to encounter. After all, we were _supposed_ to be monsters, right?

 

The GM quickly lost all control of the game, which degenerated into an unspoken competition to see who could be the cruelest, most psychotic monster...until it got so bad that we, the players, disgusted OURSELVES out with the depths of depravity we were starting to plumb.

 

At which point we stopped playing that game, having learned that there were in fact things that even munchkinoid power gamers and rules lawyers consider beyond the pale. We never got that out-of-control and dark again.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

Is it? It was in context of: "If we put away Dr. Destroyer, he will find a way... or Stormshadow (who is a major unstoppable badass in RDU) will find a way to... spring him. And then we have to face this threat all over again. And now he has a grudge against me/us.". Was it heroic? Or just the stakes are SO high.

 

It was truly a despicable act that my PC did, I didn't even ahve the courage of my convictions and slit his throat. We stripped him of his armor and I invisiblely, teleknetically, stopped his heart. Only three CHARACTERS in RDU know that Dr. Destroyer did NOT die of "natural causes".

 

Yet, it has driven story for years, that event. I wouldn't change it one iota because of the drama and the storylines it has colored.

 

And is my PC unheroic? For that one act, perhaps. But it is muddied by the countless lives he has saved and is now in the forefront of saving again, this time, trying to save the entire solar system. And like I said, he sleeps at night just fine.

 

But was it good roleplaying? You betchya.

 

Listen, I'm all about heroic characters. But heroics to me are not about 4 color. That is heroism without risk or consequence. That doesn't have much interest to me.

 

I like having powerful characters who show restraint and thought. When it comes to take the kid gloves off... oh, they are off.... but I really like to avoid combat, lethal or non-lethal, as often as I can.... creating a bit of a quandry for my GM as I try to seek out political solutions often and its tough to just have a good brawl.

It might have been great role-playing, and even necessary to some extent within context. But heroic? Hardly. It was sordid. Your character didn't even live with the consequences by 'fessing up to the world that he executed Zerstoiten in cold blood. He did it in total secrecy, and slunk away like an assassin. Four color heroism is often silly (and deliberately so). But don't try to pretend murdering an octogenarian supervillain totally stripped of his powers in any genre was somehow noble or heroic. Heroic and expedient are not synonyms.

[Chuckg]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

Heroic and expedient are not synonyms.

 

Indeed, they are quite often antonyms.

[assault]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

On the Silver Age thing:

 

I'm currently reading the DC "Showcase Presents" Green Lantern volume. It reprints a whole bunch of early Silver Age Green Lantern stories.

 

Hal Jordan kills.

 

It's not explicit, but he does.

 

On the other hand, there are cases where he probably should, but doesn't. In particular, Sinestro gets off lightly a time or two.

 

But the Qwardians are on the receiving end of GL created tsunamis on at least two separate occasions.

 

I won't bother discussing the very silly "romantic" subplot between Hal Jordan and Carol Ferris. It makes Superman and Lois Lane's relationship seem sane.

 

And incidentally, GL only occasionally does things beyond the capabilities of a 350-450 point character during these early issues. The cases when he does so are usually when the villain has already unleashed his doomsday weapon before GL gets there!

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

Listen, I'm all about heroic characters. But heroics to me are not about 4 color. That is heroism without risk or consequence. That doesn't have much interest to me.

 

Whereas playing a game or reading a book where the protagist if put in a situation that he has to be/ chooses to be a cold blooded murderer would not have much interest to me.

 

 

Give me bright shiny heroes who do the right thing, for the right reasons anytime.

 

I recently kicked off my high power champions game with a similar circumstance - the team found a way to surprise the Doctor, and an NPC killed him when capturing would be enough. The team sponsers wanted to cover it up, the team came forward, and explained what happened, and the NPC was jailed for murder. Extenuiting circumstances for fact she killed Destroyer dropped the sentence some, but it was murder and she did do it. The NPC showed remorse, and re-examined her life. The PCs had to deal with the fact they had helped a murderer.

 

There is dealing with the consequences of action.

 

Any PC that did a similar thing, and didn't turn themselves over to the cops, or show remorse, would become a vigalante NPC who the heroes would then hunt.

 

I don't mind other people playing that way, it's not my place to say what someone elses fun it - just don't say it is necessarily better or deeper, or that those characters are heroes.

Protaganists yes. Heroes no.

[Hermit]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

I'm in an interesting set of situations in two post by post games right now...

 

One mentalist of mine is with his team, having just faced a supervilain team that seems destined to come back again for revenge sometime. The villains have twelve confirmed super hero kills under their belt. My mentalist, torn between his ethics and wanting to keep his team alive, has gone in, "stuck the fingers of his mind into the clay of the villain's brain" (to paraphrase) and let the guy know just what he WILL do to him next time if the villain EVER comes after them again.

 

On the other game, my archer type and his team are facing RIPPER, who they can only barely hurt, can barely slow down. He seems invulnerable, and appears to have killed a team mate (Though the player, I beileve, requested/ allowed it because he wanted to bring in a new character). From my character's point of few, the only thing that might stop this monster now is a called shot to the eye... but that's also very likely to kill Ripper. To save himself and his team, he is likely to risk it, and then , if Ripper dies, turn himself in to the authorities.

 

Suffice to say, this thread has been very interesting given those situations.

[Chuckg]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

If I were DM'ing the second scenario, the guy would turn himself in and get a verdict of justifiable homicide. Just like a non-powered police sniper who made the same decision, and somehow pulled off the same shot.

 

My usual "Is It Heroic For A Character To Kill Under These Circumstances?" mental checklist has these steps on it:

 

1) Would it be considered justifiable under the circumstances if a normal, non-powered human in the law enforcement/military (depending on whether it's normal crimefighting or an actual war) had somehow delivered the killshot to the villain in place of the hero, or would their conduct have been judged beyond the pale by their peers using the established moral and legal guidelines of their professions?

 

Assuming the hero has cleared this hurdle, I then move on to step two:

 

2) Did the hero in question have any powers that would have been uniquely able to resolve the situation without lethal force, even if a non-powered person would not have been able to? (i.e. -- the ability to teleport the hostage safely out of a hostage-taker's hands, a non-lethal stunning Multipower slot they could have used in place of their RKA slot, etc.)

 

Assuming they can clear both hurdles, then usually, 'twere justifiable homicide.

 

(Notice that #1 absolutely blocks out the more egregious offenses, such as killing prisoners, "making sure" of incapacitated foes, attacks in cold blood, 'accidenting' villains to death because you're tired of seeing them, etc.)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

To me, heroism in the games I play is quite important. While I greatly enjoy the "super" in 'superheroes', it doesn't do much for me without the heroes part being there, too.

 

I generally tend to run four-color/Silver Age/"tarnished" Silver -- that is, I really like the generally positive Silver Age / four-color outlook on things, and I like my heroes to be 'shiny' and 'bright' and not Punisher-eque balls of anger and remoreseless 'justice', but I also like a dose of reality in my games, an acknowledgement of consequences, some moral dilemas. It's not really a true Bronze Age feel, which is why I refer to it as "tarnished" Silver.

 

As a general rule, I don't like superheroes who kill. I realize there may be some exceptional circumstances where it's necessary, but those circumstances better be pretty darn rare! I have no sympathy at all for so-called 'heroes' who kill on a regular basis, or for whom killing is one of the first options and not the last resort.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

I like my heroes to be 'shiny' and 'bright' and not Punisher-eque balls of anger and remoreseless 'justice', but I also like a dose of reality in my games, an acknowledgement of consequences, some moral dilemas. It's not really a true Bronze Age feel, which is why I refer to it as "tarnished" Silver.

.

 

Yeah, that is where I like to run as well, I think of it as "Neo-silver" and tonewise follows Kurt Busiek and Geoff Johns.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: How important is heroism in your campaign?

 

I'm gonna cut against the grain.

 

I do not like the Silver or Golden Age sense of morality. Nor do I like the Authority, which is the poster child for the Iron Age. That killing is just silly and overwrought to make it satire. Yup, Authority is not fan-boy angst... it is simply satire.

 

But if a villain is threatening my team-mates, innocents (entire cities, as happened), or in the middle of a superpowered firefight.... MOST of my PCs will drop said villain with all due extreme vengence at my disposal. I have a couple with Code vs. Killing... one is ex-Viper assassin and just can't bear it anymore.

 

In my mind, 12d6 normal attack is a LETHAL attack. It will hospitilize a 2 PD (or ED) normal.

 

However, it is downright irresponsible to let villains use lethal force and to treat them with kid gloves. Certainly there is protocol involved... I don't use my ALVD killing attack on the Cat Burgler who has never used violence in his crimes. Or on a gangster with a pistol when I know my force field is going to bounce his bullets.

 

But when 100s and 1000s are at stake... you better your bottom dollar I will fight mean, dirty and get the job done.

 

Despite that, my main PC of some 14 years, has killed maybe 10 foes. In hundreds of battles, using critical hit rules, he's killed 10. Once in cold blood, oh... but the circumstances!!!!

 

And he and I can sleep at night. Oh, by the way, that PC's favorite quote is "Can we talk about it?"... not exactly the first to pull the trigger. He has made hard, hard choices (choosing exile to save the gov't, turning his back on godhood, turning down Mentalla, and never letting Dr. Destoyer terrorize ever again.)... I think that is pretty heroic.

 

I agree Storn, even in the game I am in right now I have three C's that would kill to save others. One wouldn't even question it, he's a Wolverine type, but he'd only do it if he had to, he was a soilder so to him you have to kill sometimes inorder to do the right thing. (x3 Pen on a 4d6-1 KA, max hardened is x2). One is an alien in a distant part of the galaxey, he is from a culture that it's either kill or be killed. And the last is/was an android now human, her program was based on logic, so the needs of the many out weight the needs of the few, so to kill so that the many can be saved, she would do it and then question the action, not that he would have felt it was wronge but that society does.