How to handle RKA?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

And don't feel bad about being a newbie. Hero is a massive system with all kinds of nuances. After 24 years playing it, I still find new ways to look at it... new ways to interpret.

 

Unlike Nucleon... I have no problem with you changing rules mid-campaign. Why go forward if things aren't working. Switching to a flat x3 stun multiple doesn't just mess with one character... it sets a new bar for all characters. No harm, no foul. Obviously, if the player want to change their character with the new rule, fine... work with him on it. No need to remain stagnant just for the sake of it.

 

Simply talk about the change, the reason for the change (Killing Attacks are unbalancing compared to Normal attacks of the same value, because of the Stun Lotto) and go for it.

 

Good luck, and keep up with the good questions.

 

Agree. Better to fix what you see as a problem than either let it go on or let the game collapse. Decide how you want to treat KAs, let the players know, and let anyone with a KA switch it out for a same-active point normal attack if they want to. Present it as this is the change, here are your options - don't get dragged into a debate.

 

What I've started doing in my own games is if the resistant def is at least 2x the body rolled on the KA, then the attack simply bounces off harmlessly, no stun possible.

[CBikle]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

The X3 stun mult. sounds pretty fair.

 

On a side note, I've been in games where the 1st attack that hits early on is a killing attack with a lucky stun multiplier. Often the GM reacts to this by secretly raising the defenses of the villain to ridiculous levels, thereby setting the bar so high that the PCs conventional attacks have no chance of doing anything.

 

The above example is one of those things I hate BTW. GM's "Metagaming" isn't any less annoying than when PCs do it.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

I have a guy who only plays characters with RKA. Luckily I limited him to only having a 3d6. Needless to say he got really lucky against a my Arch Villain. Almost took him out with one hit. How do I prevent this from happening?

 

Missle Reflection

[Duke Bushido]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

Well, I thought it was good... Seems Hermit beat me to it on the first page. So much rep to Hermit-- you know, for being a total genius!

 

 

Like a lot of folks here have suggested, you might want to go with a standardized Stun Multiplier. In my own games, Supers KAs take a x2 Stun multiplier; non-supers take a x1.5. This plays up the "killing" part of "Killing Attack" by making it (the lethal BODY damage) a substantially higher percentage of the damage done.

 

And if you really want him to have to think before blazing away, don't just disregard those misses-- that bullet went somewhere! Was it into a wall? Into a bus? Into a reporter covering the fight?

 

You don't have to play nasty or become an Evil GM; just keep him mindful of what he does. And remember a couple of simple things: the guy that has the most damaging potential is usually the one that everyone works to get taken out first.

 

And if it's still a problem, get with him-- and your other players-- and go over the ground work for the campaign. Make sure that everyone is one the same page in terms of acceptable and unacceptable, etc. In the end, you may both have to 'give' a little bit, but don't keep playing until everyone is satsified with what you've got.

 

If an agreement can't be reached, then perhaps not all of you are suited to play in the same group. It does happen.

 

Good luck!

[McCoy]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

The purpose of the game is to amuse the players. Rising action to the confrotation with the villian that is suppost to be the climax of the session quickly turns anticlimatic if the big big nasty bad gets one-punched. So all my "boss fight" villians have 75% damage reduction.

[Trencher]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

To make an villan that can be beat up but not shot buy armour with the (only vs killing attacks) limitation.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

The purpose of the game is to amuse the players. Rising action to the confrotation with the villian that is suppost to be the climax of the session quickly turns anticlimatic if the big big nasty bad gets one-punched. So all my "boss fight" villians have 75% damage reduction.

Personally, I'd modify that a bit to say that "The purpose of the game is for the players and the GM to have fun"; it's not just for the benefit of the players.

 

That having been said, McCoy is right -- a big, climactic battle that ends up being...well...anticlimactic...isn't much fun for anybody, players or GM, so plan ahead appropriately. And if all else fails..."In space, no one can hear you scream; behind the GM screen, no one can see you add Resistant Damage Reduction to the Master Villain's sheet."

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

How do I handle a player who only wants to play characters that give me a headache? I tell them to go play in someone else's campaign. YOU ARE THE GM -- IT IS YOUR GAME AND YOUR RULES. If you have a player who can't make a character suitable for your campaign guidelines, give 'em the hook. Give the person an explanation, sure. Tell him or her that if he or she wishes to revamp his or her character to fit in with the rest of the group, you'll be happy to help him or her. If he or she wishes to play a different character (within reason), you'll work with him or her. But if he or she is digging in his or her heels, tell the person that when he or she is running a campaign, he or she can make the rules, but you are the GM and therefore if he or she really didn't want to play, he or she shouldn't have wasted everyone's time trying to ramrod in an unworkable character. Period.

 

Yeah, that tactic has cost me some players but it has also saved me a lot of headaches. Personally, I think I'm ahead in the game.

 

Matt "Not-afraid-to-put-his-foot-down" Frisbee

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Matt Frisbee again.

 

 

Preach it brother man!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

You have encountered what is generally called the "STUN LOTTERY". Killing Attacks are frequently better at STUNning people than normal damage attacks, which is out of whack.

 

Personally, I nerf the hell out of Killing attacks STUN capability via a House Rule, and that works for me.

 

However, if you dont want to go to that extreme you have a few options. The most straightforward is to simply change the STUN Multiple to a d3, yielding a multiple of between 1 and 3 and an average of 2.

 

Thats more of an incentive basis to not use KAs to STUN -- they suddenly just arent good at it.

 

You could also go with a punishment route, both via social pressures vs 'heroes' that use lethal force, and also in game. If the characters RKA's are bought as FOCI, you can start disarming them and/or attacking their FOCI directly. You can also go the route of making him the primary target in any engagement and start hitting him with annoyance powers. Once he's been flashed, entangled, NND'd, and drained a few times to prevent him from using his gats the player will realize that a character needs more than a bfg effect to get by and that attacks other than lethal force are very effective.

 

You could also go the nemesis route and provide one or more villains against which shooty bits just are not effective, either due to defenses, DCV, Missile Reflection on a self-resetting trigger, desolid w/ APW, mentalists with mind scan, and so forth.

 

Personally I find that punishment methods usually just lead to either escalation or frustration or both and generally employ them with care, and nemesis methods can too if bungled. Thats why I prefer to go with enticement methods; it defangs problem areas and puts the decision in the players hands to take the ability anyway because its part of their concept or move to a mechanic better suited for the actual game effect they want.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

One simple approach (likely too late for the game in question) is to prohibit "Extra Stun Multiple" advantages and require all KA's to kake the limitation "-2 Stun Multiple). They get their KA cheaper, but it now has a stun multiple that caps at 3 and averages 1.5. Suddenly, these attacks are much better at killing than KOing - which was the supposed effect, right?

[gojira]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

This is interesting. I never had much of a problem with KA because I just figured that the occasional high stun was just a feature of actually getting shot.

 

Of course I also had villians with ablative armour that lasted for the first half of the fight, otherwise known as GM cheating.

 

 

Howerver, I have a question for you all. Let's say that the stun multiplier is fixed at a low value, say two, and that most or all knockback is removed, because bullets really don't toss people around. Does that then justify reducing the cost of a KA? Or is the "overpriced" feature required to make players shy away.

 

I'm assuming that DC limits would still be the same, so campaign limits would prevent buying higher levels of KAs.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

Well, KILLING Attacks already do less Knockback; you roll an extra KB die for them.

 

That aside even reducing the STUN multiple to manageable levels Killing Attacks are still cost efficient compared to normal damage. The problem isnt that KAs are costed appropriately for their effect currently, the problem is that KA's have the potential to be more effective than an equivalent DC Normal damage attack. The assumption is that the times when the STUN multiple is low and the KA is less effective than an equivalent Normal damage attack balance out.

 

Thus, the STUN Lottery. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

 

Some GM's find that to be a true assumption, others dont. Personally I find it to be both too random and too easily manipulated via STUN Multiple bonuses. Ive seen too many fights cut short, and too many PCs put out of action from a flukey STUN multiple.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

Ditto.

 

And pricing is fine as-is.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

Some other options, to be used by themselves or in combination:

 

1. Switch from 1d6-1 to (2d6/2)-1 or (3d6/3)-1. This gives you a bell curve in StunX results and makes the extremes less likely.

 

2. Double the cost of killing attacks. To be fair, double the cost of resistant defenses as well.

 

3. This is the one I prefer. Go to your players and say "I don't like the way killing attacks, especially large ones, work in the system. To that end, all killing attack powers are considered to have a STOP sign next to them. If you turn in a character to me with a killing attack, and it doesn't in my opinion fit the concept [1], I will turn it into an Energy Blast (or remove it if you already have multiple energy blasts). Exceptions will be permitted for firearms, swords, claws, or similar kinds of attacks in which the type and SFX are explicitly spelled out (for example, if the Power is called "M1911A1 .45 caliber Government model" then it stays -- but that raises the question: if you're a hero, with great powers, why do you need a .45?). To be fair, I will be going through this same process with the villains." And enforce it.

 

For the [1] footnote, you can assume that all energy forms equate to normal damage.

 

4. Require the players to start with normal damage attacks, but they can (if their concept calls for it) build up to killing attacks as the campaign progresses, buying them with earned experience. They have to come up with an appropriate power name and SFX (for instance, the light projector can come up with a laser blast, or the flaming energy projector can build his Searing Flame Power) as well as an in-game explanation for acquiring the power ("I learned a new way to focus my sound waves into a flesh shredding power"). You can always ask them "You're a hero. Why do you want to shred flesh?" This works well in conjunction with 3 and 1 above.

 

The thing is, players take killing attacks because they perceive that either the villains are so tough that they can only be affected by stun lotto rolls on the killing attack dice, or the villains use killing attacks against them (and rely on the stun lotto rolls as well). These all take that out of the picture in various ways.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

Here's something I liked the thought of:

 

 

New House Rule!

 

Killing attacks cost 2d6/15 points. Therefore, double the dice of all existing Killing Attacks.

 

However, this damage is now applied like an Energy Blast (including counting BODY pips), but is only stopped by Resistant Defenses. This includes the STUN damage.

[Maccabe]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

Well you , as GM, know exactly what kind of DEF your villians have, right?

Make sure you build villians that can take the damage the PC's dish out and

not be knocked out, while giving the villians powers to k-o the PC's.

1-Is this guy registered with the Police etc as having a Lethal Attack?

He may have to spend points on Weapon Permit or gain a

Hunted by the Authorities and the like.

2-Does anyone in the PC group have CODE vs KILLING etc?

They will definately object to the casual use of potentially lethal force

3- Mind control him to attack his friends with that power. See how

popular he is then (Reflection/Deflection also works well with this)

4- Guilt Complex; Make an easy to kill villian and the PC becomes a murderer

Worse-> dress up his DNPC as the PC's Hunted and watch the fun

5- Say "NO!" (as such things do not happen in comic books)

 

All in all make sure the player is mature enough to use such a power wisely

[philnicau]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

As 3d6 KA can kill a normal (average body 10.5 from the attack), let him use it in combat against a thug who due to his unluck forgot to wear his armour today, and is killed, after the battle have the police (or Primus if you think he won't go quietly) arrest the PC and charge him with Murder (or Manslaughter), he's now facing 10 years to life, and hopefully he'll learn not to do this for his next character.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

As 3d6 KA can kill a normal (average body 10.5 from the attack)' date=' let him use it in combat against a thug who due to his unluck forgot to wear his armour today, and is killed, after the battle have the police (or Primus if you think he won't go quietly) arrest the PC and charge him with Murder (or Manslaughter), he's now facing 10 years to life, and hopefully he'll learn not to do this for his next character.[/quote']

 

Sounds good. Of course, the same thug should also be hit by a typical 12d6 EB and be down 10 BOD after that as well. shouldn't he? How is it that the other atack (a 60 STR Brick, or 12d6 EB; Sonic) isn't also considered "lethal force"?

 

The problem isn't that the KA inflicts BOD. It's the ability to inflict massive amounts of Stun.

[CBikle]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

Well you , as GM, know exactly what kind of DEF your villians have, right?

Make sure you build villians that can take the damage the PC's dish out and

not be knocked out, while giving the villians powers to k-o the PC's.

What's this supposed to accomplish ?

 

1-Is this guy registered with the Police etc as having a Lethal Attack?

He may have to spend points on Weapon Permit or gain a

Hunted by the Authorities and the like.

2-Does anyone in the PC group have CODE vs KILLING etc?

They will definately object to the casual use of potentially lethal force

3- Mind control him to attack his friends with that power. See how

popular he is then (Reflection/Deflection also works well with this)

4- Guilt Complex; Make an easy to kill villian and the PC becomes a murderer

Worse-> dress up his DNPC as the PC's Hunted and watch the fun

 

Most of these suggestions seem petty and hostile and more than likely would throw the entire game into a tailspin. I've never been a big fan of games where the GM takes on an adversarial role against the PCs.

 

Also, I get the impression that the issue isn't with the lethality of RKAs, but more with the "stun lotto" effect. No need to go overboard here.

[input.jack]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

Ive seen several really good suggestions for handling KA's proposed here. The x3 Stun Multiple, and doubling the dice and then applying them normally (count Body, but its only stopped by Res. Def) are my favorites.

 

Id recommend talking to the Player and asking him why the flaming furry heck he ONLY buys KA's. If he cant give you a satisfactory answer for this trait, then you should point out that hes only trying to capitalize on game mechanics, and thats BAD role-playing character design

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

What about a flat 2.5 Stun Multiple? COnsider:

 

12d6 EB averages 42 STUN, 12 BOD

 

4d6 KA averages 35 STUN, 14 BOD

 

Difference? KA does 1/6 more BOD than EB and 1/6 less STUN. The curve flattens out quite a bit (there's still more volatility in 4d6 than 12d6), and the KA maxes out at 60 Stun.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

Another suggestion: for an Xd6 KA, roll (2X)d6 of a different color at the same time you roll damage. Add them all together to determine STUN.

[RDU Neil]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

What about a flat 2.5 Stun Multiple? COnsider:

 

12d6 EB averages 42 STUN, 12 BOD

 

4d6 KA averages 35 STUN, 14 BOD

 

Difference? KA does 1/6 more BOD than EB and 1/6 less STUN. The curve flattens out quite a bit (there's still more volatility in 4d6 than 12d6), and the KA maxes out at 60 Stun.

 

Always an option... but KISS it. Fractions are a pain. x3 is much easier than x2.5

 

Close enough is better than complex... but then everyone has a different point where they feel it is too complex. For me... fractions or decimal places are always a bad place to go DURING GAME PLAY. In character construction, no problem... but in game play... keep the math out of it.

[BNakagawa]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

 

Howerver, I have a question for you all. Let's say that the stun multiplier is fixed at a low value, say two, and that most or all knockback is removed, because bullets really don't toss people around. Does that then justify reducing the cost of a KA? Or is the "overpriced" feature required to make players shy away.

 

I'm assuming that DC limits would still be the same, so campaign limits would prevent buying higher levels of KAs.

 

You can't get away with changing the active point values for KAs without rendering things like Entangles and Force Walls useless.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to handle RKA?

 

Always an option... but KISS it. Fractions are a pain. x3 is much easier than x2.5

 

Close enough is better than complex... but then everyone has a different point where they feel it is too complex. For me... fractions or decimal places are always a bad place to go DURING GAME PLAY. In character construction, no problem... but in game play... keep the math out of it.

 

I agree with avoidance of needless complexity (and the fraction does bug me a bit). However, if you leave the standard multiple at 3, a KA averages the same STUN as a normal attack of equal AP, and I find that to be a bit ;ess than appropriate. The "actual" average is 2 2/3, but that's an even worse fraction, and 2 is so small as to be useless, so that's too low.