Retcon the CU

[SatinKitty]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I would get rid of VIPER's uniforms and the silly vehicles that say "VIPER" in huge letters. VIPER is supposed to be a covert organization. I've said before that the obvious VIPER logos and uniforms are, in my opinion, a big "Duh". Simple membership in this organization is illegal. I don't think anyone would wear or display a uniform or logo announcing the fact.

Just my opinion.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

The other aspect of my back-story is that it's very recent. In fact, it's really more an idea for an alternative Kirby-esque setting than an integral part of my "main" world.

 

Traditionally I didn't have a back-story at all.

 

Come to think of it, while I've whiled away many hours writing timelines, I've never actually used one of those in a campaign either.

 

For what it's worth, my current timeline pretty much goes:

Way back when: Forerunners visit.

~1530s First Phantom homage begins career.

1930s First known superheroes (Phantom homage, Mandrake homage...)

~1954 Golden Age sputters out.

Probably some kind of Silver Age.

Late 70s Bronze Age starts.

80s Peak of Bronze Age.

Early 90s Bronze Age tapers off.

Early 00s Supers start to build up again.

 

Obviously it's short on details, but I've never quite been happy with any set of them that I've put together.

 

The 80s Bronze Age heyday corresponds to the last time I was regularly playing Champions, of course.

 

I gave the Bronze Age a few years before that to allow for various NPCs to establish themselves.

 

The biggest problems are that I don't really have a Silver Age, or a reason why the Bronze Age tapered off.

Since our games tend to use a lot of legacy characters it becomes more important for us to have a better understanding of our campaign history. I would say fully half of the characters I've played in the last 24 years have been legacy characters. I like playing characters with a strong sense of tradition and heritage. One of the first things I ask a GM is to tell me about the world's golden and silver ages.

[Chuckg]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Actually, I like what 4e and 5e VIPER did with the uniforms -- their use on the overt assaults is intended to draw attention away from the *covert* ops.

 

Notice how the /really/ dangerous parts of VIPER -- Duchess Industries and their other Legitimate Fronts -- don't have any green uniforms in sight.

 

AAMOF, the more I read the 5e VIPER sourcebook, the more I realize that the majority of VIPER's power and influence is outside the Nest structure, and tied up instead in VIPER's legitimate front megacorps, the personal fiefdoms of the Council of Thirty, the Supreme Serpent's own household troops, and the five Supreme Nests (VIPER World HQ and its four backups). If every Nest in the world outside of the core five fell off the face of the earth tomorrow, VIPER would lose only (I guess) a fourth of its influence, power, and infrastructure, even if it lost a notably higher proportion of cannon fodder.

 

These distribution makes me seriously consider the idea that the entire point of the Nest system is simply as a giant diversion -- something for the heroes and UNTIL to have fun playing with while the *real* work of conquering the world gets done slowly, insidiously, and off the map. It would also be useful as a sort of "farm team" for the inner echelons of VIPER, as well as live-fire training, blooding the troops, and testing out new weapons and concepts on a pilot scale before incorporating them into the 'core' VIPER.

 

If my speculations here are right, then Essec is a supreme freakin' genius with this move, and I tip my hat to him.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Hmm ... I think I'd start by bringing more of the ideas from 3ed ed and 4th ed back into the continuity. I think there could be a real sense of history if the CU was built on the blocks of what came before. I know that there's some copyright issues, but for those characters that aren't under copyright, it could be cool to see how they've advanced and such. For example:

• The Champions would be closer to the Avengers or JLA, starting small with the BBB Champs and eventually evolving into the FRED version.

• I agree with the more techno-mage Demon. I liked Allen's book, but it didn't seem like Demon to me. For that matter, I would expand the heck outta Primus

• I'd make COIL closer to the Serpent Society and retain Viper's Cobra/Hydra feel. For that matter, I'd make Primus more COIL's nemesis, as well as making it similar to CoH's Hero Corps.

• Many old villains would be brought back, as wel as using some of the old groups. I'd also bring back Sanctuary

• I'd also seperate the Champions setting from the rest of the meta-setting.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

• I'd also seperate the Champions setting from the rest of the meta-setting.

 

This is a big one, and I'm glad that Steve bit the bullet and did it with Dark Champions. I don't really like the Turakian and Valdorian ages as part of the CU's history (though admitedly comic book companies have done that kind of genre mashing with the past on-and-off for years), and I don't like the long period without Supers as part of their future. I'd prefer something like a Dark Champions - Cyber Hero - Star Hero time line and a separate Champions - Galactic Hero time line.

[Black Rose]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I personally have no problem with the "Magic is the source of superpowers" thing, since I always read it as "There are these lapping waves of 'weakened reality' that roll over Earth every so often. They stick around for a good long while, and then gradually recede. The current one has been obviously here for about eighty-five years or so, and probably for about one-hundred-thirty years, and hasn't crested yet, so we have no way of knowing when it will start to recede." AFAIC, all those "magic times" in the past lasted for centuries (if not longer), and I see no reason for this one not to do the same.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

It's funny,but as far as I can tell,even the supporters of the "all superpowers require magic" don't seem to really like it-their arguments all seem to rely on the old statement "your universe doesn't have to be the same as the official CU".

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

It's funny' date='but as far as I can tell,even the supporters of the "all superpowers require magic" don't seem to really like it-their arguments all seem to rely on the old statement "your universe doesn't have to be the same as the official CU".[/quote']

No. My opinion is that people make too much out of it. Magic being the source doesn't affect the game in any way whatsoever and yet many people seems to have a problem with it for no other reason then its name is "magic." If magic somehow affected super powers differently during the course of play [mages could instantly weaken you by cutting off your access to the pool, for example] then I would agree it is an issue, but magic doesn't. Magic works no differently then mutation, or technology, or any other power special effect. If something has zero effect on the game it seems foolish to have that much animosity toward it; it just seems like bigoted dislike to me.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I'd hardly call it bigoted. It just a matter of personal taste and its not a popular option. I don't like it myself but there's no right or wrong answer. No, it doesn't have to be an issue, but that doesn't mean thematically it doesn't have an impact. To use a flat out ridiculous example, all superpowers could be created by little invisible untouchable pixies from another dimension. They can't be interacted with or perceived on a game level ever, they're just background but it would still strike a number of people as a bad design choice. It wouldn't have an effect on the game at all, but it would have an effect on the perception of the setting. Calling something "Magic" is going to touch on some preconceived notions in people's minds. For some people that creates a negative. Other's don't care.

[Chuckg]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

No' date=' it doesn't have to be an issue, but that doesn't mean thematically it doesn't have an impact. To use a flat out ridiculous example, all superpowers could be created by little invisible untouchable pixies from another dimension. They can't be interacted with or perceived on a game level ever, they're just background but it would still strike a number of people as a bad design choice.[/quote']

 

Oh, you mean like midi-chlorians.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Oh' date=' you mean like midi-chlorians. [/quote']

 

Yeah, kind of like that.

[Starlord]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

If magic somehow affected super powers differently during the course of play [mages could instantly weaken you by cutting off your access to the pool' date= for example] then I would agree it is an issue, but magic doesn't.

 

Just one of the reason why I described it as 'wonky'. Is it magic or not? Is everyone a magical superbeing or not? If you cut off magical flow to Sapphire, then she should lose her powers. In my CU, I keep the magic thing...but it only affects sorcerer-wizard types like Witchcraft. A lot of other sources account for the other super-types that populate my CU.

[Publius]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I don't mind the magic thing, but then I don't use the CU either. I have described the physics-bending qualities of most superpowers (size alteration being a huge one) using various means myself, ranging from a 'meta-force' (that may as well be magic), to something I have on the drawing board now that involves dimensional warping/cosmic string thingees (which may as well be magic). Saying "magic" may just be shorthand then, a way to recognize that which we cannot observe directly.

 

Dimensional sifting, Magic, Factor-X whatever: I'm the guy with the laserbeam eyes.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Much of the time, I just say "Super powers work because otherwise it would be a boring comic" and let it go. Physics in this setting allows for things like this.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Calling something "Magic" is going to touch on some preconceived notions in people's minds. For some people that creates a negative. Other's don't care.

Isn't that really the essence of bigotry: disliking something because it creates a negative in your mind for no logical reason?

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Just one of the reason why I described it as 'wonky'. Is it magic or not? Is everyone a magical superbeing or not? If you cut off magical flow to Sapphire' date=' then she should lose her powers. In my CU, I keep the magic thing...but it only affects sorcerer-wizard types like Witchcraft. A lot of other sources account for the other super-types that populate my CU.[/quote']

Magic is just a special effect it's not the end-all-be-all. Perhaps in your mind magic is an omni-force capable of everything but I think most Champions gamers understand that magic is only a power descriptor just like alien or mutant is. I just honestly believe people are making this a bigger issue the it really is. I never saw anyone on the San Angleo list talking about how singularities are stupid and shouldn't be the reason for super powers. Every reason for super powers is stupid if you want to call it that.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Isn't that really the essence of bigotry: disliking something because it creates a negative in your mind for no logical reason?

 

Not in my opinion. Its just a matter of liking something or not liking something. I don't like rhubarb pie because I don't like the taste. There is no complicated reason for not enjoying I simply don't like the flavor. I wouldn't call that being "bigoted aginst rhubarb pie.

 

Everyone has different tastes and this sort of thing is entirely subjective. I have read the explanation for superpowers in the CU and I don't care for it. Labelling it bigotry seems unessecarily argumentative. Either you like something or you don't, its not a big deal either way. Yes, all explanations for superpowers are just different names for Handwavium, but everyone is going to have a different tolerance and preferance for what flavor of Handwavium they want for their games.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Isn't that really the essence of bigotry: disliking something because it creates a negative in your mind for no logical reason?

 

I don't use the "it's magic" thing, but it has nothing to do with being a redneck thaumacist.

 

I like conspiracies that go back for centuries in my games, immortal Supers who have been active for millenia or more, vast alien civilizations, all that comic book goodness that the CU does incorporate. Except the CU then throws in not just the "it's magic" bit, but the associated waxing and waning theme. Now we have the issue of the Emperians, Lemurian and Atlanteans, all of whom have technology that either stopped working for millenia on Earth and yet was for some reason retained, or who have what mut be non-"magic" based Supertech which just happens to be indistinguishable from the magic based Supertech. We have Alien Races who visit Earth regularly and yet don't (in any cannon source I've read) mention their fascination with CU-Earth's magical technology. Those races, along with the hidden lands races, have Racial Superpowers that must have gone into periods of decline, but we get little or no mention of that. Babylon and all the Mystical Places are full of ancient beings, and we see nothing of how they deal with the issue of waxing and waning. Yes, you can hand-wave all of that (or take some time and retcon it), but personally I'd rather just take Star Hero out of the timeline (just as Dark Champion was taken out) and drop the damn thing. Let Supertech be (mostly) tech, let mighty immortals be mighty immortals, and the whole meta-story becomes that much more solid.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

See, I guess my point is that some people here are saying they don't like the magic but no one is saying why they don't like the magic. Why does magic strike a bigger negative chord then singularities, advanced aliens, Tunguska meteors, or pixie dust? If you say: "I don't like magic being the source of super powers because I don't want my CU campaign to have magic in it" or "I don't like magic being the source of super powers because I want my CU game to reflect that humanity is mutating due to a natural evolutionary process" then those are reasons to that make sense to me. Saying: "Ewh! Magic!" doesn't to me.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

See' date=' I guess my point is that some people here are saying they don't like the magic but no one is saying why they don't like the magic. Why does magic strike a bigger negative chord then singularities, advanced aliens, Tunguska meteors, or pixie dust? If you say: "I don't like magic being the source of super powers because I don't want my CU campaign to have magic in it" or "I don't like magic being the source of super powers because I want my CU game to reflect that humanity is mutating due to a natural evolutionary process" then those are reasons to that make sense to me. Saying: "Ewh! Magic!" doesn't to me. [/quote']

 

I'd say that it's the cyclical power fluxuations and the discrepancies that creep in because of it that bothers me, rather than the idea of "magic" itself. That said, I want my Celestials and my Green Lantern Corps, and I want their tech to be tech, and that's all there is to it.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

See' date=' I guess my point is that some people here are saying they don't like the magic but no one is saying why they don't like the magic. Why does magic strike a bigger negative chord then singularities, advanced aliens, Tunguska meteors, or pixie dust? If you say: "I don't like magic being the source of super powers because I don't want my CU campaign to have magic in it" or "I don't like magic being the source of super powers because I want my CU game to reflect that humanity is mutating due to a natural evolutionary process" then those are reasons to that make sense to me. Saying: "Ewh! Magic!" doesn't to me. [/quote']

 

Maybe they don't like magic being the reason because...they don't like magic being the reason. Why do some people like magic being the reason? Why do some people like the color blue more than the color orange? What difference does it really make? There's no accouting for taste. Why do they have to justify their taste in a subjective matter?

 

Personally, I don't like the flavor that calling all superpowers the result of "magic" waxing and waning, including so called Technology. I don't like the idea of superpowers appearing and vanishing over time and apparently no one recalling their existence. It sets up some odd situations such as what is "real" technology as opposed to "magic" technology?

 

I imagine others have their own "reasons" but it boils down to I like apple pie instead of peach.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I don't use the "it's magic" thing, but it has nothing to do with being a redneck thaumacist.

 

I like conspiracies that go back for centuries in my games, immortal Supers who have been active for millenia or more, vast alien civilizations, all that comic book goodness that the CU does incorporate. Except the CU then throws in not just the "it's magic" bit, but the associated waxing and waning theme. Now we have the issue of the Emperians, Lemurian and Atlanteans, all of whom have technology that either stopped working for millenia on Earth and yet was for some reason retained, or who have what mut be non-"magic" based Supertech which just happens to be indistinguishable from the magic based Supertech. We have Alien Races who visit Earth regularly and yet don't (in any cannon source I've read) mention their fascination with CU-Earth's magical technology. Those races, along with the hidden lands races, have Racial Superpowers that must have gone into periods of decline, but we get little or no mention of that. Babylon and all the Mystical Places are full of ancient beings, and we see nothing of how they deal with the issue of waxing and waning. Yes, you can hand-wave all of that (or take some time and retcon it), but personally I'd rather just take Star Hero out of the timeline (just as Dark Champion was taken out) and drop the damn thing. Let Supertech be (mostly) tech, let mighty immortals be mighty immortals, and the whole meta-story becomes that much more solid.

 

You made some good points except for this one:

 

We have Alien Races who visit Earth regularly and yet don't (in any cannon source I've read) mention their fascination with CU-Earth's magical technology.

The entire universe is effected by magic, not just Earth. There is no fascination because aliens of the same time period have the same tech.

 

I'd also point out that there is a difference between powers gained and powers you always had or attained through a natural state of evolution. Malvan technology is based on evolutionary science rather then super-tech, and as such is not effected by the waxing and waning. This is the same with natural evolutionary powers like telepathy or water-breathing. If your race was always telepathic you don't lose that ability, though the extraordinarily telepathic supers of your race might be lost when the magic is dammed.

 

What magic does is allow people at level 4 to become level 5, 6, 7, or more; it allows them to evolve before their evolutionary level. When the magic is gone that ability is gone as well. You fall back to your normal level.

 

I do agree that there needs to be a lot more information about how it all works, but that's just not going to happen so we are left with the debate.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Part of the issue in this thread might be the subject. Its say what you would change in the CU, not explain why you don't like magic being the Source. Speaking of which....

 

I don't use the CU, but if I was...

 

1. Drop the magic thing

2. Make it a seperate timeline from Dark Champions, Turkanian Age, Terran Empire, etc. If Hudson City existed, it would be Hudson City Powers type setting.

3. Drop a few of the mega villians or tone them some down a notch or two.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I don't like the idea of superpowers appearing and vanishing over time and apparently no one recalling their existence.

No book actually says that, btw. It's just a supposition many people make when not completely reading the text presented in question. Alien Wars, for example, states:

 

"Records regarding the “era of superhumans†are spotty at best, due in large part to the destruction of Humanity’s infrastructure, archives, and databases suffered during the Xenovore Wars. During the 2300s, most Humans regard “superhumans†as a myth, much the same way twenty-first century Humans dismiss Elizabethan-era Humans’ belief in spirits and magic as superstitious nonsense. Nonbelievers can easily ignore “evidence†of superhumans, including video clips and the like, as fake (or, at best, misunderstood). However, some people do believe superhumans once existed. They can point to the records in Hzeel databases of combat against Human “superheroes†in the early twenty-first century, and other forms of proof, to support their claims. The debate mostly occurs in the fringe media, since the average individual couldn’t care less what Earth was like three hundred years ago — there’s a war on, and people don’t have time to study meaningless old historical records."

 

So there is evidence and many people do believe that supers once existed, but for the most part they just don't care.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

You made some good points except for this one:

 

 

The entire universe is effected by magic, not just Earth. There is no fascination because aliens of the same time period have the same tech.

 

I'd also point out that there is a difference between powers gained and powers you always had or attained through a natural state of evolution. Malvan technology is based on evolutionary science rather then super-tech, and as such is not effected by the waxing and waning. This is the same with natural evolutionary powers like telepathy or water-breathing. If your race was always telepathic you don't lose that ability, though the extraordinarily telepathic supers of your race might be lost when the magic is dammed.

 

What magic does is allow people at level 4 to become level 5, 6, 7, or more; it allows them to evolve before their evolutionary level. When the magic is gone that ability is gone as well. You fall back to your normal level.

 

I do agree that there needs to be a lot more information about how it all works, but that's just not going to happen so we are left with the debate.

 

And yet these same aliens keep physics defying technology and powers when the magic goes away. STR 20 TK doesn't bend all that many fewer physical laws than STR 40 TK. Trying to justify active point increases and decreases by campaign type as part of the physics of the setting is gamist silliness; better to just say that the Star Hero Malvans are not the CU-GC Malvans and avoid the problem entirely.