Retcon the CU

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Part of the issue in this thread might be the subject. Its say what you would change in the CU, not explain why you don't like magic being the Source. Speaking of which....

 

I don't use the CU, but if I was...

 

1. Drop the magic thing

2. Make it a seperate timeline from Dark Champions, Turkanian Age, Terran Empire, etc. If Hudson City existed, it would be Hudson City Powers type setting.

3. Drop a few of the mega villians or tone them some down a notch or two.

Actually it says what would you change in the "Official history" not what villains or power levels you'd change.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

No book actually says that, btw. It's just a supposition many people make when not completely reading the text presented in question. Alien Wars, for example, states:

 

"Records regarding the “era of superhumans” are spotty at best, due in large part to the destruction of Humanity’s infrastructure, archives, and databases suffered during the Xenovore Wars. During the 2300s, most Humans regard “superhumans” as a myth, much the same way twenty-first century Humans dismiss Elizabethan-era Humans’ belief in spirits and magic as superstitious nonsense. Nonbelievers can easily ignore “evidence” of superhumans, including video clips and the like, as fake (or, at best, misunderstood). However, some people do believe superhumans once existed. They can point to the records in Hzeel databases of combat against Human “superheroes” in the early twenty-first century, and other forms of proof, to support their claims. The debate mostly occurs in the fringe media, since the average individual couldn’t care less what Earth was like three hundred years ago — there’s a war on, and people don’t have time to study meaningless old historical records."

 

So there is evidence and many people do believe that supers once existed, but for the most part they just don't care.

 

Yeah, but given the nature and extent of superhumans in the "current" Champions universe I don't buy that almost no one considers them important or interesting enough to think about. Yes, there are myths now we don't believe in, but there's pretty concrete proof of these things, these being existing. Not stories, not folklore but recordings. It someone actually had a preserved corpse of a giant or a centaur or the sword Excalibur there'd likely be more alot more belief that these things actually happened. These incredibly powerful influential beings just vanished and most people don't care?

 

"200 years ago, people could fly under their own power"

 

"Who cares?"

 

Its more handwave to explain something (the magic waxing and waning) that I don't care for in the first place.

 

I have to ask. Why's is such a big issue for you. You wanted reason. You got some and your argue against them.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

And yet these same aliens keep physics defying technology and powers when the magic goes away. STR 20 TK doesn't bend all that many fewer physical laws than STR 40 TK. Trying to justify active point increases and decreases by campaign type as part of the physics of the setting is gamist silliness; better to just say that the Star Hero Malvans are not the CU-GC Malvans and avoid the problem entirely.

There are no physics-defying technologies, just physics we humans have not advance to yet. That is two different things. The Malvans advanced to those levels tens of thousands of years ago. Humans are barely evolved past horses and carts. It has nothing to do with super-tech. To a 17th century human a photograph would be physics-defying and magical.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Actually it says what would you change in the "Official history" not what villains or power levels you'd change.

 

Dropping Dr. D's or Takofaness' power levels to something more managable would effect the offical history since it would be less likely they could do things like kill dozen of heros in a single battle. So logically, those things would have to change as well.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

There are no physics-defying technologies' date=' just physics we humans have not advance to yet. That is two different things. The Malvans advanced to those levels tens of thousands of years ago. Humans are barely evolved past horses and carts. It has nothing to do with super-tech. To a 17th century human a photograph would be physics-defying and magical.[/quote']

 

You could make exactly the same argument to keep all of Doctor Destroyer's tech functional and drop the magic tech entirely.

 

Which points out the gamist nature of the "it's magic" explanation nicely.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Yeah, but given the nature and extent of superhumans in the "current" Champions universe I don't buy that almost no one considers them important or interesting enough to think about. Yes, there are myths now we don't believe in, but there's pretty concrete proof of these things, these being existing. Not stories, not folklore but recordings. It someone actually had a preserved corpse of a giant or a centaur or the sword Excalibur there'd likely be more alot more belief that these things actually happened. These incredibly powerful influential beings just vanished and most people don't care?

 

"200 years ago, people could fly under their own power"

 

"Who cares?"

 

Its more handwave to explain something (the magic waxing and waning) that I don't care for in the first place.

 

I have to ask. Why's is such a big issue for you. You wanted reason. You got some and your argue against them.

 

Yup. It reminds me of Millar's anti-Superhero Superhero comics, or a GM determined to teach players that their characters were nothing special just because they were Supers. "Who cares if you can smash cities with your fists or if you saved the world? You're not so big. In 300 years nobeody will even believe you existed."

[Starlord]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I'd say that it's the cyclical power fluxuations and the discrepancies that creep in because of it that bothers me' date=' rather than the idea of "magic" itself. That said, I want my Celestials and my Green Lantern Corps, and I want their tech to be tech, and that's all there is to it. [/quote']

 

Yeah, and if your supers travel 20 years into the future or 100 years into the past they're apparently powerless because there is no magic. Heck, V'han should just wait a couple decades and she'll apparently conquer with ease. Sorry, just 'wonky', out of whack.

 

PS: I've never read the increased magical energy as affecting the entire universe, I thought it just applied to Earth (perhaps I read it wrong). This seems ridiculous also though - a few no-name Nazi wizards powered up the whole dimension?

 

Like I said, I use the idea but in a much more limited capacity.

[Starlord]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Magic is just a special effect it's not the end-all-be-all. Perhaps in your mind magic is an omni-force capable of everything but I think most Champions gamers understand that magic is only a power descriptor just like alien or mutant is. I just honestly believe people are making this a bigger issue the it really is. I never saw anyone on the San Angleo list talking about how singularities are stupid and shouldn't be the reason for super powers. Every reason for super powers is stupid if you want to call it that.

 

Huh? It is established CU canon that magic IS the omni-force capable of everything. It is proven in GC when it is stated that everything essentially shuts off when the magic goes away. Seems pretty clear to me.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Yeah, and if your supers travel 20 years into the future or 100 years into the past they're apparently powerless because there is no magic. Heck, V'han should just wait a couple decades and she'll apparently conquer with ease. Sorry, just 'wonky', out of whack.

 

PS: I've never read the increased magical energy as affecting the entire universe, I thought it just applied to Earth (perhaps I read it wrong). This seems ridiculous also though - a few no-name Nazi wizards powered up the whole dimension?

 

Like I said, I use the idea but in a much more limited capacity.

First, the energy doesn't just immediately drain out. After the well was blocked it took about 2 years for the energy stored in the heroe's bodies to drain out, so sending heroes to the future doesn't immediately drain them of power.

 

Second, yes, it effected the entire universe. All aliens with super powers lost their as well. That's why there was no more Firewing during that period and why the Star*guard had to do what they did to exist during the period.

 

Third, it's not rediculous. In another thread we're talking about V'han taking over the Earth dimension. That doesn't mean she is trying to take over the Earth, it means she's trying to take over the whole dimension [which encompases all stars and galaxies within the universe]. V'han could just as easily be attacking the Andromeda galaxy even as we speak [and being just as quickly repulsed by the supers there]. The only time we worry about her is when she's attacking the Earth area directly.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Huh? It is established CU canon that magic IS the omni-force capable of everything. It is proven in GC when it is stated that everything essentially shuts off when the magic goes away. Seems pretty clear to me.

No, it's the catalyst for change, not a power which can do anything desired. Two entirely different things.

 

And if you know the GC future why are stating in another post that you didn't understand that magic effected the whole universe?

[Starlord]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

No, it's the catalyst for change, not a power which can do anything desired. Two entirely different things.

 

And if you know the GC future why are stating in another post that you didn't understand that magic effected the whole universe?

 

- If it is only the catalyst, why would current supers lose their powers? This should just disallow new powers.

 

- Never thought it through that far. I only use GC for ideas and characters really.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

...a redneck thaumacist.

Now there's a phrase that I never expected to see!

I like conspiracies that go back for centuries in my games' date=' immortal Supers who have been active for millenia or more, vast alien civilizations, all that comic book goodness that the CU does incorporate. Except the CU then throws in not just the "it's magic" bit, but the associated waxing and waning theme. Now we have the issue of the Emperians, Lemurian and Atlanteans, all of whom have technology that either stopped working for millenia on Earth and yet was for some reason retained, or who have what mut be non-"magic" based Supertech which just happens to be indistinguishable from the magic based Supertech. We have Alien Races who visit Earth regularly and yet don't (in any cannon source I've read) mention their fascination with CU-Earth's magical technology. Those races, along with the hidden lands races, have Racial Superpowers that must have gone into periods of decline, but we get little or no mention of that. Babylon and all the Mystical Places are full of ancient beings, and we see nothing of how they deal with the issue of waxing and waning. Yes, you can hand-wave all of that (or take some time and retcon it), but personally I'd rather just take Star Hero out of the timeline (just as Dark Champion was taken out) and drop the damn thing. Let Supertech be (mostly) tech, let mighty immortals be mighty immortals, and the whole meta-story becomes that much more solid.[/quote']

These are all very good points, and mirror my own feelings on the matter quite closely.

 

I've said before I have problems with the idea of magic being the source for "supertech". The main reason for this is that apparently, by the time of the Terran Empire, etc. there are of course various kinds of faster-than-light drives, practically portable fusion power sources, amazing medical miracles, and so on.

 

I simply cannot understand why it's 'impossible' for a super-genius in the superhero world to have made breakthrough advances that would let him construct versions of these machines without having them become inoperative when 'magic' fades away again.

 

I mean -- is he a super-genius or not?

 

Does that mean that when the 'magic' fades from the universe again, all the complex math equations he solved nigh-instantly in his head (and that it takes computers years to solve -- and get the same answer he did) suddenly have answers that are wrong? But wait -- a modern (real-world) computer could get there eventually, and got the same answer! Does that mean that our modern computers also work 'by magic' so they came up with the wrong answer, too, and will also stop working when the 'magic' goes away?

 

If 'yes', then how does civilization continue, if real-world 'high tech' devices also stop working because there's no 'magic'? How does man (or any alien race) ever develop high tech again, faster-than-light drives of the Terran Empire timeline, and so on?

 

If 'no' -- then he really is a super-genius, and if he gets the right, workable answer to complex equations (answers that don't suddenly become 'wrong' once the 'magic' fades away) why does that automatically mean that all his breakthroughs are junk, flawed, hokey, and can't be turned into applied devices without 'magic'?

 

Further, there are a lot of alien civilizations mentioned that have had what we'd consider "super" tech for milennia. Why do their devices keep working when human-genius-created "super" tech suddenly goes belly-up?

 

It's not an esthetic problem for me -- it's a consistency problem.

 

Trying to keep alien FTL drives / Terran Empire FTL dives (and other such things) while saying that like devices created by supergeniuses of the 20th and 21st centuries stop working without 'magic' just doesn't make conceptual sense, and simply can't be made to work/exist together.

 

Being willing to suspend my disbelief so I can have superheroes, starships, and so on is one thing.

 

Being asked to suspend my disbelief by hanging it by the neck until dead is another thing entirely.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dr. Thrakazog again.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I have to admit, the "magic" as a backstory didn't resonate for me much as well. I understand where it came from - in the overall universe terms you have to cover "where did the old mythic empires go" and "how come there are supers only very recently" issues.

 

In my usually (admittedly somewhat tongue-in-cheek) game, the big mystic empires hosed themselves and magic is kept mostly secret to avoid rival factions more than humanity as a whole. The rise of supers is related to the same nebulous forces that have caused a rise in cancer, allergies, diebetes etc. (Diet, population density, better tech to survive onset...) In a weird way, superheroes are caused by processed sugar and junk food as much as "radiation".

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

In a weird way' date=' superheroes are caused by processed sugar and junk food as much as "radiation".[/quote']

 

Now that I like.

 

[Cue PSA]

ATLAN Pharm Preservatives: They keep our food fresh, so we can get them to the market for you, the consumer. In a small percentage of the population, they also trigger beneficial adaptations, such as bullet proof skin or superhuman strength. ATLAN Pharm and You: Building the World of Tomorrow, Today.[/End PSA]

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

As far as "magic affecting superpowers/supertech," my gaming group demanded a rationalization that they could relate to. I came up with an analogy which seems to work for them, so maybe it would help some of you:

 

Let's say you're in an unlit room. You can fumble around by touch and determine the overall size and shape of the room; learn and memorize the size, shape and location of objects in it; manipulate them in various ways; but your ability to appreciate your environment, to make changes in it, even to navigate around it quickly and easily is limited by your power of perception.

 

Now introduce light into the room. Suddenly a whole new realm of possibilities has opened up to you. You can perceive all the colors and patterns that were in the room that were previously only shapes. You can readily see where everything is, so you can move around the room and manipulate objects in it without hesitation. You can accomplish tasks requiring precision that was beyond you before. Visual similarities and differences allow you to arrange things in patterns you never imagined. Ah, and if something written is in the room, it offers an entirely new medium for information and entertainment, and one that you can use to express yourself and share with others.

 

Has the light changed anything in the room? Light is a very real force, but in this case it hasn't altered the other forces and laws at work in the room in any way. The addition of it has merely actualized potential that was always there, but impossible to utilize without light.

 

Now take the light away. All that enhanced ability and facility is gone. You remember the way it used to be, but even going by memory you can't do things with the same ease you once could. Some of the things you remember are now meaningless - colors, patterns, writing - because to do anything with them, to create or modify or share them, you would need light.

 

I acknowledge that this probably still won't work for some of you, and that's fair. Not everyone has the same kind of imagination, and makes the same kind of metaphorical leaps. It's not quite as difficult as explaining sight to someone born blind, but that's another analogy. (Or is it?)

[Hermit]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Okay, LL, that's a great metaphor. It does help the idea go down smoother, so to speak.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

As far as "magic affecting superpowers/supertech," my gaming group demanded a rationalization that they could relate to. I came up with an analogy which seems to work for them, so maybe it would help some of you:

 

Let's say you're in an unlit room. You can fumble around by touch and determine the overall size and shape of the room; learn and memorize the size, shape and location of objects in it; manipulate them in various ways; but your ability to appreciate your environment, to make changes in it, even to navigate around it quickly and easily is limited by your power of perception.

 

Now introduce light into the room. Suddenly a whole new realm of possibilities has opened up to you. You can perceive all the colors and patterns that were in the room that were previously only shapes. You can readily see where everything is, so you can move around the room and manipulate objects in it without hesitation. You can accomplish tasks requiring precision that was beyond you before. Visual similarities and differences allow you to arrange things in patterns you never imagined. Ah, and if something written is in the room, it offers an entirely new medium for information and entertainment, and one that you can use to express yourself and share with others.

 

Has the light changed anything in the room? Light is a very real force, but in this case it hasn't altered the other forces and laws at work in the room in any way. The addition of it has merely actualized potential that was always there, but impossible to utilize without light.

 

Now take the light away. All that enhanced ability and facility is gone. You remember the way it used to be, but even going by memory you can't do things with the same ease you once could. Some of the things you remember are now meaningless - colors, patterns, writing - because to do anything with them, to create or modify or share them, you would need light.

 

I acknowledge that this probably still won't work for some of you, and that's fair. Not everyone has the same kind of imagination, and makes the same kind of metaphorical leaps. It's not quite as difficult as explaining sight to someone born blind, but that's another analogy. (Or is it?)

 

I have to admit that's very clever.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I have to admit that's very clever.

 

Well, it's clever, but ...

 

Doctor Destroyer's Supertech stops working.

 

All the Supertech stops working.

 

The Atlantean, Emperian, Lemurian, and Alien Tech, created in the same conditions of "Light", apparently keep right on truckin'.

 

I just don't buy it.

 

That said, I owe you rep LL.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

The Atlantean' date=' Emperian, Lemurian, and Alien Tech, created in the same conditions of "Light", apparently keep right on truckin'.[/quote']

And this is the point where I keep saying the alien tech created during "light" [like the Star*Guard staves] did fail. The alien tech created through natural advances in science [science more advanced then human science] did not. It's not an issue.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

And this is the point where I keep saying the alien tech created during "light" [like the Star*Guard staves] did fail. The alien tech created through natural advances in science [science more advanced then human science] did not. It's not an issue.

 

Mitchell, the Star*Guard staves failed because they were superhero equipment; they didn't violate the actual laws of physics any more (or less) than the Malvan etc. tech that was fine. Having them fail was a device to mark a transition to a space opera setting where they didn't fit; of course, as soon as we get to the GC era, they start working again, better than ever. It's the same sort of crap as having gunpowder stop working when you take it into a fantasy world. You see this as cool setting background; I see it as gamist wanking. I respect your point of view, but I don't share it at all.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Mitchell' date=' the Star*Guard staves failed because they were superhero equipment; they didn't violate the actual laws of physics any more (or less) than the Malvan etc. tech that was fine. Having them fail was a device to mark a transition to a space opera setting where they didn't fit; of course, as soon as we get to the GC era, they start working again, better than ever. It's the same sort of crap as having gunpowder stop working when you take it into a fantasy world. You see this as cool setting background; I see it as gamist wanking. I respect your point of view, but I don't share it at all.[/quote']

No, they SG staves failed because the technology which allowed for all of those powers to be within the staff failed. The microchips that could project blasts and force walls and everything else could no longer do those things and that size and configuration.

 

The technology of knowing how to make gunpower is not the same as knowing how to put a tracer unit within a casing and firing it from a pistol. The super-tech allowed you to understand how to make the tracer able to 1: fit into the case. 2: withstand the explosion which propelled it down the barrel of your gun and onto your target. 3: trace it. The physics which allowed that to happened failed because our tech level is not advanced enough to do that, yet. By the AW era our tech level had advanced enough again to be able to once again make starships and genetically engineer people like heavies and selkies and spacers.

 

That's what we are ultimately talking about here. Going from super-physics to real world physics [as we understand physics at our tech level] within a couple of years. Turning a light on and off. There are plenty of real world examples of technology and events we don't understand yet. We call those things theories. The theory of evolution, relativity, etc. Eventually our tech level will evolve high enough to be able to prove those things with 100% accuracy, but it's not there yet. It has evolved considerably since those theories were first introduced.

 

What the super-tech did was accelerate our understanding of technology. Eventually we get most of that back by the GC era even before the magic comes back. The Malvans never lost theirs because it wasn't super-tech based.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Lets say there is a small unknown alien race in the CU universe. They are at a stone age level of technology. The "Light" comes on and one of their super geniuses is able to craft a super weapon. A Catapult. When the Light goes out, does the Catapult stop working? Can suddenly no one else of that race replicate it?

 

I think the major question is What distinguishes "Supetech" that needs the light from Real tech that doesn't, aside from the fact that "Superbeings" used it or not?

[Chuckg]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I think it wasn't so much that the supertech instantly stopped working in that it no longer was able to be maintained or operated as it should have been.

 

Notice that Doctor Destroyer's armor and life-sustaining nanotech was reported to have failed over a period of months, not collapse instantly into junk.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I drop the "magic is the source of superpowers" idea as well. Regarding supertechnology, I separate into three categories:

 

First, tech that's "merely" more sophisticated versions of what we already know (a 2005 Dodge Viper engine as viewed by someone from 1905) and which is primarily responsible for advancing the realm of off-the shelf technology.

 

Second, tech that involves principles understood poorly or not at all by today's science, but still clearly within the realm of pure science. (Playstation 3 as viewed by Thomas Edison--he'd be able to recognize it as tech, but he wouldn't even be able to figure out what it was FOR if all he got was the console itself). This is stuff that advances our understanding of theoretical physics.

 

Third, technology that, as far as anyone can tell, shouldn't work. Tech that violates conservation of energy; that sort of thing. (no real-world examples possible, obviously) This the stuff that advances sales of headache medicine among scientists.

 

IF I were using the magic-goes-away idea, only the third category of technology would be affected.

 

So what actually causes superpowers in my universe? Nobody knows. Magic has been documented as a real phenomenon, although its association with mysticism has prevented it from getting much rigorous exploration. An alternate molecule-level muscle fiber configuration has been identified as a cause of low-level superstrength, and seems to be inheritable, although the gene has yet to be identified (well, Telios probably knows). Power armor is, largely, mudane technology developed through decades of intense research, although the really powerful suits still tend to be one-offs, and it's all expensive.

 

And then, there are countless supers whose powers defy any explanation. "Mutant"? Okay, this person can fly and shoot lasers from her eyes, and we can identify a difference in her genes. We still don't have any idea HOW that difference gives her that ability.

 

Even worse: 10,000 perfectly normal people get caught in burning buildings. Most die, some survive. One comes out with fire powers. WHY?!!

 

Some scientists conclude that the universe has lost rational consistency, and become despondent or even suicidal. Some view this as an exciting new area of theoretical physics. Most grudgingly accept that scientific principles apply most of the time and try not to think about it too hard.

 

Zeropoint