Retcon the CU

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I think it wasn't so much that the supertech instantly stopped working in that it no longer was able to be maintained or operated as it should have been.

 

Notice that Doctor Destroyer's armor and life-sustaining nanotech was reported to have failed over a period of months, not collapse instantly into junk.

Exactly. It didn't just stop but eventually those micro-microchips couldn't be remanufactured. They couldn't hold as much energy. They broke easier. Those are the types of tech things which occured. It took 2 years for the tech to completely die [ as well as the magic energy stored in teh super-human's bodies to run out]. Think of the superhumans as like Superman and yellow sun. While under the yellow sun he's very powerful. Take him away from it for a long time and his battery eventually runs out. That's what happen with super-tech and super-humans. That's why you can still do time travel adventures; becuase the energy stays within the hero's body for a year or more. It doesn't immediately disappear when they enter an non-magic era.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Lets say there is a small unknown alien race in the CU universe. They are at a stone age level of technology. The "Light" comes on and one of their super geniuses is able to craft a super weapon. A Catapult. When the Light goes out, does the Catapult stop working? Can suddenly no one else of that race replicate it?

 

I think the major question is What distinguishes "Supetech" that needs the light from Real tech that doesn't, aside from the fact that "Superbeings" used it or not?

What you have is people forgetting how they made something. The ability to make the rope strong enough to withstand the tension from the catapult just can't be remanufactured. For whatever reason they don't remember how to do it. Things like this happen all the time in our real history. There were secrets lost in the library of Alexandria that we are just beginning to understand now, 2,000 years later. They were lost because the papers were destroyed and the only person who understood it died. The person who understood how to make the ropes for the catapult forgot how to do it, and all the tech was lost.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

No' date=' they SG staves failed because the technology which allowed for all of those powers to be within the staff failed. The microchips that could project blasts and force walls and everything else could no longer do those things and that size and configuration.[/quote']

 

This is exactly the situation of gunpowder stopping working because the characters have now wandered into a fantasy world. The damn staff is right there, already built, not doing anything more amazing than the "alien-tech" that keeps working. Then it turns off, or stays functional but can't be reverse engineered. You find that compelling. I find it goofy.

 

The technology of knowing how to make gunpower is not the same as knowing how to put a tracer unit within a casing and firing it from a pistol. The super-tech allowed you to understand how to make the tracer able to 1: fit into the case. 2: withstand the explosion which propelled it down the barrel of your gun and onto your target. 3: trace it.

 

Losing the knowledge of how to build something because the magic went away doesn't bother me that much; it could be workable. However, the CU scientists would have working models right the frick there. And again, the alien tech kept working.

 

 

The physics which allowed that to happened failed because our tech level is not advanced enough to do that, yet.

 

Our level of knowledge makes no difference at all to physics. That's like saying that the Earth was flat until our knowledge of Geography was advanced enough to know it was round.

 

There are plenty of real world examples of technology and events we don't understand yet. We call those things theories.

 

No, we don't. We call our explanations of phenomena theories. We call the actual phenomena by whatever names we've assigned them. You may not understand how your car works, but changing your theory on the subject in no way changes the way your car actually works.

 

What the super-tech did was accelerate our understanding of technology. Eventually we get most of that back by the GC era even before the magic comes back. The Malvans never lost theirs because it wasn't super-tech based.

 

Dude, when the supertech knowledge went away, the actual working examples were right there.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

What you have is people forgetting how they made something. The ability to make the rope strong enough to withstand the tension from the catapult just can't be remanufactured. For whatever reason they don't remember how to do it. Things like this happen all the time in our real history. There were secrets lost in the library of Alexandria that we are just beginning to understand now' date=' 2,000 years later. They were lost because the papers were destroyed and the only person who understood it died. The person who understood how to make the ropes for the catapult forgot how to do it, and all the tech was lost.[/quote']

 

So for years this superweapon was able to be created, then people forgot how to replicate it, all the principles behind it are forgotten, all the one created destroyed and the records lost? So not only does Magic change physics to some degree, it arranges for "coincidence" to irretrivably destroy the evidence?

 

This happens to everything that was designated "supertech" by some arbitrary reasoning. If it works for you that's great. But it doesn't work for me.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Oddhat, you just don't get it. A microchip the size of a pin head that could do 1,000 things in Dr. Destroyer's armor now needed to be the size of a house to get the same effect. The ability for a bullet to hit as hard as a tank was gone. It had to go back to being the size of a tank.

 

And our understanding of physics is always evolving. What we understand about it today is very different then what we understood 100 years ago. I'm sure there are things we will understand 100 years in the future that would boggle our minds now.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

So for years this superweapon was able to be created, then people forgot how to replicate it, all the principles behind it are forgotten, all the one created destroyed and the records lost? So not only does Magic change physics to some degree, it arranges for "coincidence" to irretrivably destroy the evidence?

 

This happens to everything that was designated "supertech" by some arbitrary reasoning. If it works for you that's great. But it doesn't work for me.

The ability to make super-tech wasn't granted to everyone. In that T-1 world maybe only 5 people knew how to make it; 5 superhero types. It's not the regular scientist in the CU world who are making the super-tech; it's the super-scientists. When the super-scientists are gone the ability to understand what they created is gone too. We still don't understand all of what Einstein wrote 60 years later. It's no different.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Oddhat' date=' you just don't get it. A microchip the size of a pin head that could do 1,000 things in Dr. Destroyer's armor now needed to be the size of a house to get the same effect. The ability for a bullet to hit as hard as a tank was gone. It had to go back to being the size of a tank. [/quote']

 

Mitchell, I get it fine. I just think it's silly. So, if I were to retcon the CU, I'd change it. In your campaign, you can do as you like.

 

And our understanding of physics is always evolving. What we understand about it today is very different then what we understood 100 years ago. I'm sure there are things we will understand 100 years in the future that would boggle our minds now.

 

Which has no bearing whatsoever on how physics actually works, though it does relate to the discussion of what we can actually build.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

The ability to make super-tech wasn't granted to everyone. In that T-1 world maybe only 5 people knew how to make it; 5 superhero types. It's not the regular scientist in the CU world who are making the super-tech; it's the super-scientists.

 

But it is science. It can tested, examined and reverse engineered. The catapult can be used by others, even "mass produced" (Like Viper Blasters) so it can be understood by other besides the supergenius. If "supertech" in the CU couldn't be replicated or used by anyone but its creator, I would find its appearance and disappearnces much more acceptable.

 

Edit: We also have people working beyond what Einstein wrote, expanding on it and even possibly proving some it is wrong. The knowledge didn't just vanish from the collective awareness of humanity when he died (or shortly afterwar). His genius allowed him to grasp it, but the genie was out of the bottle at that point. It didn't just go away at some point. That's what would have to happen in the CU with waxing and waning of "magic" eliminating "supertech". What makes someone a "super scientist' as opposed to "normal" scientist? A certain level of Int?

The only difference is someone decideds to call that person a "super" scientist so there science is "supertech".

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

But it is science. It can tested' date=' examined and reverse engineered. The catapult can be used by others, even "mass produced" (Like Viper Blasters) so it can be understood by other besides the supergenius. If "supertech" in the CU couldn't be replicated or used by anyone but its creator, I would find its appearance and disappearnces much more acceptable.[/quote']

Again, for those who do not read all the words: if the catapult requires rope that cannot be manufactured without super-tech [quite possible in a T-1 world that uses grass weaving] then you can't really make another catapult. You need the stong ropes for the tension resistance. If the person who made the ropes lost the knowledge on how to do it, then you can't replicate it no matter how hard you try. It would be like you reading Einstein's notes and not understand a world of it, even though Einstein did.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

But it is science. It can tested' date=' examined and reverse engineered. The catapult can be used by others, even "mass produced" (Like Viper Blasters) so it can be understood by other besides the supergenius. If "supertech" in the CU couldn't be replicated or used by anyone but its creator, I would find its appearance and disappearnces much more acceptable.[/quote']

 

Agreed. Added to that, a hypothetical "Malvan Tech" space craft that did exactly the same things as a "Supertech" space craft would keep working, even if the two ships were completely identical on every level.

 

You might posibly argue that the Supertech spacecraft couldn't be maintained on Earth, even with complete doccumentation of every step of the manufacturing process for every part, but then you have to ask how the damn thing got put together in the first place.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Again' date=' for those who do not read all the words: if the catapult requires rope that cannot be manufactured without super-tech [quite possible in a T-1 world that uses grass weaving'] then you can't really make another catapult. You need the stong ropes for the tension resistance. If the person who made the ropes lost the knowledge on how to do it, then you can't replicate it no matter how hard you try. It would be like you reading Einstein's notes and not understand a world of it, even though Einstein did.

 

I read every word you wrote. I just don't happen to agree with them I think we all get it, some of us just don't like it. But I think its time for me to get off this ride.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Again' date=' for those who do not read all the words: if the catapult requires rope that cannot be manufactured without super-tech [quite possible in a T-1 world that uses grass weaving'] then you can't really make another catapult. You need the stong ropes for the tension resistance. If the person who made the ropes lost the knowledge on how to do it, then you can't replicate it no matter how hard you try. It would be like you reading Einstein's notes and not understand a world of it, even though Einstein did.

 

Someone can read every word you write and still disagree. It's more than a little inflamatory to claim that those who disagree with you are not reading what you write. Still, the "can't maintain supertech" argument has some appeal; it does however lead to problematic questions about why the Superscientists are apparently failing to doccument their work, especially in the case of mass-produced Supertech (UNTIL equipment, Viper equipment, etc).

[Enforcer84]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I'd change it so the hot girls wore less clothing and had a thing for overweight, middle-aged bankers with delusions of adequacy.

 

for no good reason.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I'd change it so the hot girls wore less clothing and had a thing for overweight, middle-aged bankers with delusions of adequacy.

 

for no good reason.

 

Yeah. All the Supers should be hawt chyx with a thing for overweight gamer guys in their thirties. All the normals too. The hawt chyx can satisfy eachother's "needs" while their greatest heroines reach out accross the dimensions to find what they really crave!

 

I'll be in my bunk.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Lets say there is a small unknown alien race in the CU universe. They are at a stone age level of technology. The "Light" comes on and one of their super geniuses is able to craft a super weapon. A Catapult. When the Light goes out, does the Catapult stop working? Can suddenly no one else of that race replicate it?

 

I think the major question is What distinguishes "Supetech" that needs the light from Real tech that doesn't, aside from the fact that "Superbeings" used it or not?

 

Well, if it was an actual tech advance, it would stay.

 

If it was a supertech catapult, it would eventually break - and any attempts to copy it would also break readily.

 

Why?

 

It's a solar powered catapult, and suddenly the room went dark.

 

Supertech taps the SuperEnergy in one way or another. It's not a matter of function, it's a matter of power supply. Oh, and the things you can _make_ with that supply; creating matter from nothing is much easier with the jacked up power levels the 'mana' gives you.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

So for years this superweapon was able to be created, then people forgot how to replicate it, all the principles behind it are forgotten, all the one created destroyed and the records lost? So not only does Magic change physics to some degree, it arranges for "coincidence" to irretrivably destroy the evidence?

 

This happens to everything that was designated "supertech" by some arbitrary reasoning. If it works for you that's great. But it doesn't work for me.

 

And it's perfectly reasonable that it doesn't work for you. Ultimately what "works" is going to vary from person to person, and since these games are supposed to be for pleasure you should use whatever rationale pleases you the most.

 

When I think of supertech, I think of something being created which operates on a level beyond anything that contemporary science is capable of making practical. A technological leap that goes from early twenty-first century tech to something that rivals the performance of tech from civilizations hundreds or thousands of years older

 

Your catapult example actually fits well with this. For an early stone-age man to create a functioning catapult as we understand it would require basic knowledge of physics, mathematics and structural engineering which a stone-age society may be far from developing. However, with the presence of "light" (since other people have taken up that term, I might as well stick with it) our stone-age genius may perceive another way to create a catapult. It may function like a real-world catapult, but a modern engineer looking at it would say, "Waitaminnit, where's the counterweight to the projectile? The center of gravity is off for this thing, and these materials don't have the tensile strength to withstand that much force. There's no way it can work!" And yet it does, or at least it did. (Kind of like how superheroes can throw a truck a mile without the opposite reaction hurling them back even farther.) Without the "light" it won't work, and our neolithic savant won't be able to reproduce it since the conditions which enabled it no longer exist. He remembers what he did and can try to explain it, but it won't make sense to anyone familiar with modern science.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Your catapult example actually fits well with this. For an early stone-age man to create a functioning catapult as we understand it would require basic knowledge of physics, mathematics and structural engineering which a stone-age society may be far from developing. However, with the presence of "light" (since other people have taken up that term, I might as well stick with it) our stone-age genius may perceive another way to create a catapult. It may function like a real-world catapult, but a modern engineer looking at it would say, "Waitaminnit, where's the counterweight to the projectile? The center of gravity is off for this thing, and these materials don't have the tensile strength to withstand that much force. There's no way it can work!" And yet it does, or at least it did. (Kind of like how superheroes can throw a truck a mile without the opposite reaction hurling them back even farther.) Without the "light" it won't work, and our neolithic savant won't be able to reproduce it since the conditions which enabled it no longer exist. He remembers what he did and can try to explain it, but it won't make sense to anyone familiar with modern science.

 

Which is all fine, except that in the official CU a Malvan catapult maker can't tell the difference between this catapult and one that he made, and the one that he made keeps working after the "light" goes away.

 

Note that I'm OK with saying that Supertech is actually junk science in a particular setting, or that "the laws of physics themselves are in flux" if "junk science" is offensive. I just want the "real" scientists to notice, or I want all the FTL drives everywhere to fail when physics turns back on (if it does so), not just the ones built by races that are not meant to have FTL yet. A Malvan scientist looking at Earth's science should either realize that something is screwy, or his own ship should fail when the magic dies.

 

If someone else has different tastes, good on them.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Which is all fine, except that in the official CU a Malvan catapult maker can't tell the difference between this catapult and one that he made, and the one that he made keeps working after the "light" goes away.

 

Note that I'm OK with saying that Supertech is actually junk science in a particular setting, or that "the laws of physics themselves are in flux" if "junk science" is offensive. I just want the "real" scientists to notice, or I want all the FTL drives everywhere to fail when physics turns back on (if it does so), not just the ones built by races that are not meant to have FTL yet. A Malvan scientist looking at Earth's science should either realize that something is screwy, or his own ship should fail when the magic dies.

 

If someone else has different tastes, good on them.

 

Been talking up some Malvan catapult makers, have we? Seriously, can you point me to any mention in the published 5E books of any of the more scientifically advanced races having the opportunity to examine some Terrestrial supertech?

 

I'm not trying to change your tastes, OddHat. I appreciate your objections, and I feel no need to convince you otherwise. I'm just looking at the situation in a way that suits my own tastes.

 

I would just reiterate that the supertech "rivals the performance" of technology from an older culture, not "duplicates the principles" of it. FTL drive may be possible, and we have various theories as to how it might be achieved, but at this point in our scientific evolution we don't have a clue as to how to make it work practically. Other, older civilizations may have discovered ways to do this because their science has evolved further.

 

Going back to my earlier darkened room analogy, science as we understand it is the result of feeling around in the dark. The longer someone has to do it, the more of the room he can map out, the more objects in it he can discover, measure and catalogue, and the more ways to rearrange things he can experiment with. Eventually he may have worked out a pattern for getting to any point in the room quickly without bumping into anything. With the "light" of magic, someone can see the whole room, and make the imaginative leap to realize that he can use visual clues to do the same thing. But when the light is gone the visual clues are gone, and that realization becomes useless.

 

Okay, I think I've beaten that metaphor to death and said everything I have to say. I hope it was helpful to some folks, but if not please return to your regularly scheduled gaming.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Yeah. All the Supers should be hawt chyx with a thing for overweight gamer guys in their thirties. All the normals too. The hawt chyx can satisfy eachother's "needs" while their greatest heroines reach out accross the dimensions to find what they really crave!

 

I'll be in my bunk.

I'll be in er, the next bunk.

[Starlord]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Some of these new explanations are excellent, especially LLs. Ultimately though, from my own personal POV, they make me dislike the idea even more because it essentially cheapens the effects of supergeniuses and the like.

 

Sorry, not for me.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Been talking up some Malvan catapult makers, have we? Seriously, can you point me to any mention in the published 5E books of any of the more scientifically advanced races having the opportunity to examine some Terrestrial supertech?

SNIP

I would just reiterate that the supertech "rivals the performance" of technology from an older culture, not "duplicates the principles" of it. FTL drive may be possible, and we have various theories as to how it might be achieved, but at this point in our scientific evolution we don't have a clue as to how to make it work practically. Other, older civilizations may have discovered ways to do this because their science has evolved further.

 

And if that's the way you want to run your campaign, groovy. I'm reacting more to MitchellS' claim earlier in this thread:

The entire universe is effected by magic, not just Earth. There is no fascination because aliens of the same time period have the same tech.

As well as multiple similar statements.

 

It's fine to conceptualize Earth Supertech as junk science that stops working when the magic goes away, but that does open up a nest of messy questions, especially in the case of Alien science that is also available on Earth and Supertech that can clearly be mass produced by non-supers (UNTIL and Viper's equipment for a start). You can claim that physical laws themselves changed, making some equipment useless, and that's OK for your game. Personally, considering how incredibly varied Superteh is and how many laws would need to change (all presumeably with no other observable macro or micro changes to the way the univese works) I dislike that idea, and will not be using it in my games. I would also rather not see it in the official CU.

 

There are other problems with the idea. What if you want your battlesuit built with "real" Alien technology, and why does that stop functioning in a few years? What if you want a character who is genuinely a supergenius able to build real advanced tech rather than junk Supertech? Where is the line between the two, etc. You can answer those however you like in your campaign, and I have seen no clear answer in the official CU books so far. Personally, I have my own ways of approaching those problems, but in the CU the easiest way (IMO) would be to just drop the idea that there is a difference between Super and Real technology, and the idea that "Super" technology will stop working in 15 years time. It's a matter of taste. Unfortunately, there's a tendancy to argue matters of taste as if they were matters of fact, but that's people for you.

[MitchellS]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Oddhat, Earth's super-tech is not "junk" science. It's science we have not evolved to the point of being able to do in that form. The magic gave us advanced science evolution, and we lost that evolution when the science went away. Dr. Destroyer learned how to make a nuclear reactor the size of a calculator battery rather then the size of a huge nuclear complex, etc.

 

A character whose battlesuit was made by Malvan scientists 500 years ago wouldn't fail when the magic goes away because Malvan technology has already evolved to the point where it can go no further. But if that technology gets damaged humans no longer have the capacity to fix it after the magic goes away. A Malvan scientist [assuming you had access to one] could fix it but a human scientist can't because he doesn't have the understanding of metallurgy and nuclear physics, and gravatics that a Malvan scientist would have.

 

Malva has the most powerful battlefleet before magic returns, when magic is here, after magic goes away, and when it returns again. Malva has that because their science isn't based upon false evolutionary leaps. It might have been in the past at different times but the race is so old that they weathered the down times and just kept creating until they reached a level of understanding that equaled anything possible by super-tech. Eventually humans weathe the downtimes too and make it to the Galactic Federation era. By that point in time human technology has almost returned to the super-heroic era. And then the magic came back and humans took another false leap.

[Starlord]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

It's fine to conceptualize Earth Supertech as junk science that stops working when the magic goes away, but that does open up a nest of messy questions, especially in the case of Alien science that is also available on Earth and Supertech that can clearly be mass produced by non-supers (UNTIL and Viper's equipment for a start). You can claim that physical laws themselves changed, making some equipment useless, and that's OK for your game. Personally, considering how incredibly varied Superteh is and how many laws would need to change (all presumeably with no other observable macro or micro changes to the way the univese works) I dislike that idea, and will not be using it in my games. I would also rather not see it in the official CU.

 

There are other problems with the idea. What if you want your battlesuit built with "real" Alien technology, and why does that stop functioning in a few years? What if you want a character who is genuinely a supergenius able to build real advanced tech rather than junk Supertech? Where is the line between the two, etc. You can answer those however you like in your campaign, and I have seen no clear answer in the official CU books so far. Personally, I have my own ways of approaching those problems, but in the CU the easiest way (IMO) would be to just drop the idea that there is a difference between Super and Real technology, and the idea that "Super" technology will stop working in 15 years time. It's a matter of taste. Unfortunately, there's a tendancy to argue matters of taste as if they were matters of fact, but that's people for you.

 

I can just envision advanced alien races visiting Earth and 'snickering' at our supergeniuses, "Yeah, sure, Mr. Fantastic, that is a wonderful Alludium P-38 Space Modulator (*pats head*). Psst, hey Grolkor, in twenty years this guy won't know his butt from a hole in the ground!" Snicker, snicker, snicker.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Oddhat' date=' Earth's super-tech is not "junk" science. It's science we have not evolved to the point of being able to do in that form. The magic gave us advanced science evolution, and we lost that evolution when the science went away. Dr. Destroyer learned how to make a nuclear reactor the size of a calculator battery rather then the size of a huge nuclear complex, etc.[/quote']

 

That answer satisfies you, in your campaigns. If your tastes run that way, groovy. To me, it's nonsense. Either Dr.D really has built a nuclear reactor the size of a battery or he hasn't. If it's real science, losing the "magic" won't make a bit of difference. If it's a manifestation of his powers, and those powers go away, it will shut off. In the second case, actual scientists (as oppossed to poor deranged loons who think that you can have a nuclear reactor the size of a battery) ought to be able to look at Dr.D's tech and say "this can not possibly work", and they should not be able to reverse engineer and mass produce it, UNTIL-tech style. Those are my tastes, and I don't demand that you share them.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Oddhat' date=' Earth's super-tech is not "junk" science. It's science we have not evolved to the point of being able to do in that form. The magic gave us advanced science evolution, and we lost that evolution when the science went away. Dr. Destroyer learned how to make a nuclear reactor the size of a calculator battery rather then the size of a huge nuclear complex, etc.[/quote']

 

What I dislike about the wane and waft comes down to this - by example-:

I have supergenius character with a battlesuit. He builds it himself. It is "supertech" but he knows how to build it, and how to create all the do-dads to keep it running (special chips ect). By character concept, and my special effect, this suit is real tech that can be built by anybody with the correct knowledge and tools, which my character has, and has built, so that they can be rebuilt, by him, anytime he wants - it isn't magic, just advanced technology.

Then the magic wanes.

By special effect, his suit is "real tech". It shouldnt't change.

By special effect, he can build and repair anything he made.

 

Why does it break down after "the magic goes away" even if it takes a few years. By SFX everything he is and builds is not effected by the ambient magical level - so by SFX it should not be affected. But it is.

 

And that to me is the problem. It nails special effects of characters - and that destroys my willing suspension of disbelief. Some people can suspend disbelief through that, or have a rationale they can accept. I haven't yet seen one, and thus to me, it is something that detracts from the game world. So I toss it.