Healing/Regeneration power build :help:

[unclevlad]

42 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

Hear me out on this one.  What if your Ghul has duplication.  The body and the soul.  Build the body how you want folk to fight it, build the soul to be invisible and invulnerable but capable of nothing, just lots of BODY.

 

The duplication is no conscious control, when a downed Ghul body is hit that second time it triggers the recombination. That triggers a healing. When fully healed, the duplication kicks in again to split body and soul.

 

Need to read a bit about death of a duplicate, if necessary buy the additional BODY indicated by Sean, the Ghul is dead for all intents and purposes, except to be able to recombine.

 

Doc

 

I loathe making such a conceptually complex mechanism when the rules define a straightforward one.  It also, I'm pretty sure, not work, because you can't recombine with a dead duplicate.

 

3 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Problem is that when the duplicate dies, it is gone and the points to purchase it are lost. That means the creature can only regenerate from death once.

 

Multiple duplicates.  Buy 16 of em, say.  20 points.  You get x2 duplicates for 5 points.

 

 

2 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Then Healing with Resurrection and a trigger would be the way to go.

 

To formalize a notion...a compound power.  Part 1 is the resurrection aspect, which gets the Resurrection Only limitation.  Part 2 is Healing, with a trigger (upon resurrection), LOTS of dice...and 1 charge. 

[Chris Goodwin]

2 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Problem is that when the duplicate dies, it is gone and the points to purchase it are lost. That means the creature can only regenerate from death once.

 

Unless the dupe is resurrected.

 

Though I'd probably use Multiform rather than Duplication.  Along with the additional BODY mentioned above, which both forms will have.

[Gauntlet]

9 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Multiple duplicates.  Buy 16 of em, say.  20 points.  You get x2 duplicates for 5 points.

 

Problem is that eventually you will run out of Duplicates and then the creature is permanently dead.

 

9 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

To formalize a notion...a compound power.  Part 1 is the resurrection aspect, which gets the Resurrection Only limitation.  Part 2 is Healing, with a trigger (upon resurrection), LOTS of dice...and 1 charge.

 

You don't need a compound power. Resurrection is part of Healing.

 

8 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Unless the dupe is resurrected.

 

If that's the case what is the point in having Duplication, Resurrection will automatically bring the individual to life. If that is what you are looking for, just have triggered healing with Resurrection.

 

Healing BODY 8d6, Resurrection, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Full Phase to reset; When Character is Killed; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Expanded Effect (BODY, STUN, & END) (+1); Does Not Work if Character Is Not Attacked After Dying (-1/2)

 

I heard that there was a stipulation that it would not work if the character was not attacked after dying so I added that in.

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Problem is that eventually you will run out of Duplicates and then the creature is permanently dead.

 

 

You don't need a compound power. Resurrection is part of Healing.

 

 

If that's the case what is the point in having Duplication, Resurrection will automatically bring the individual to life. If that is what you are looking for, just have triggered healing with Resurrection.

 

Healing BODY 8d6, Resurrection, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Full Phase to reset; When Character is Killed; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Expanded Effect (BODY, STUN, & END) (+1); Does Not Work if Character Is Not Attacked After Dying (-1/2)

 

I heard that there was a stipulation that it would not work if the character was not attacked after dying so I added that in.

 

1.  More duplicates?  Buy more.  +5 points to double.  Eek.  I don't like the approach, but this is a trivial workaround if you do.

 

2.  On the Resurrection...mmm, I know it is.  I may have mis-thought it a bit.  BUT...8d6 probably isn't *close* to enough, which I think CRT emphasized.  

Healing, N d6 (N will be discussed in a bit), Resurrection (+20 points), 0 END, Resurrection Only (-1/2), Trigger (when struck after being killed), plus maybe the expanded effect, and the "must be hit again" limitation

 

So, what's N?  First, the healing must be great enough to take the corpse to 1 BODY...and if this is going to happen all at once, on the trigger, we're talking taking the BODY to full.  So, even with just 10 BODY...we're talking 20 BODY, or 40 pips.  Hello there, 12d6 minimum, and that's if you don't allow damage past negative BODY.  

 

Oh, and...we need Decreased Re-use Duration...a HONKING BIG ONE, if we want it to work as OP suggested.  

 

So, we're looking at, what, 140 base points with a +3 1/4 advantage...?  +1 1/2 decreased re-use, +1/2 reduced END, + 1/4 trigger, +1 expanded effect.  595 active?

 

3.  Chris was pointing out the qualifier to my statement.  You can't recombine with a dead duplicate...so for the duplication approach to work, the duplicate has to be resurrected...at which point, he's not dead, and therefore, recombine's allowed.

 

Mmm...

 

[Duke Bushido]

Not at all up on 6e; not readily conversant with 5e.  Lots of neat suggestions, but they bring a question forward:

 

Cannot "Trigger: corpse takes damage" work to trigger this?  Cannot "when BODY is a positive value" be used as a valid auto-reset?

 

Thanks for any answers.

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

Trigger:  corpse takes damage should be fine...altho, come to think, is it legal overall?  Does a dead body *have* powers?  If the trigger is "received lethal damage"...then the trigger kicks in when still alive.  It's only about to die.   But as OP wrote it, the trigger could occur a month later.  

 

 

Oh...oops.  Death is at negative 2x BODY...so this power, to work as OP wanted, would need to do pips equal to 6x the BODY score...

 

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

Trigger:  corpse takes damage should be fine...altho, come to think, is it legal overall?  Does a dead body *have* powers? 

 

 

Excellent point!

 

So, just as a quick analysis:

 

I can make a character who is a  zombie or a vampire who has powers.  They are both dead, though perhaps because we classify them as  "undead" it makes a difference.  I can also make a character who is a robot: not at all alive, without possibility of being "undead."

 

However, it is never technically alive, so it can't really be a corpse, either.

 

I can make many, many kinds of booby traps (according to the equipment books) that, like the robot, are never alive (or capable of dying) with the Trigger advantage.

 

Longer analysis may be needed, but a cursory check (why it took so long for me to get back; I actually cracked some books-  like I said: I am not at all up on the Long Editions), but from cursory investigation, I am willing to posit that since an unliving thing can have powers and a character with powers can be dead and actively played (if dead is his "normal state of being," so to speak) that a corpse can likely have powers.

 

Though the nature of Trigger doesn't require character input ( beyond setring a non-automatic reset-type Trigger): when the Trigger condition is met, the trigger goes off.

 

The most reasonable cause for denial would be the idea that a recently-alive-but-now-isn't character using a Trigger power would be that he can no longer pay END to fuel the Power.  However, he can pre-pay the END.   In fact, I can't find any limitations on just how far in advance he can do so (for what it's worth, Fantasy HERO seems to be the best place to find examples of pre-paid END), and I can't seem to find any rulings that pre-paid END disappears when the donor dies.

 

There do not seem to be any rules preventing a literal deadman switch on a Trigger (which is why I asked: I thought someone else might have a citation for such a rule), so on first blush, it _seems_ book-legal.

 

Side note:  the fact that there seems to be no limit as to how far in advance a character can prepay END suggests to me that it has a near-zero value as a limitation- spells and potions that require pre-paying END, for example.  I have been allowing -1/4 as it is a bit more difficult in combat to take the time and allocate precious END, but I may have to rethink that.

 

Anyway, it smells book-legal, but I can see why someone might decide to make this a GM's call.  I'd allow it, though.

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

Oh...oops.  Death is at negative 2x BODY...so this power, to work as OP wanted, would need to do pips equal to 6x the BODY score...

 

 

 

I am going to have to reread 1e.  Somewhere in the earliest days we got it into our heads that death was -10 BODY.  I have got to figure out why we thought that.  Anyway, for non-supers games, I still use that, else it takes a surprising amount of stabbings to kill a guy.

 

 

[dmjalund]

A dead elephant still has extra PD due to thick skin.

[Hugh Neilson]

If a Triggered power won't go off after the character who set the Trigger dies, land mines seem to have an issue...

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Trigger:  corpse takes damage should be fine...altho, come to think, is it legal overall?  Does a dead body *have* powers?

 

That's why I said to make it a trigger that goes off as they die (while still alive) and with a delay on it.  That way, if they are hit within x time period after death, then it works, otherwise nothing happens.

 

If a Triggered power won't go off after the character who set the Trigger dies, land mines seem to have an issue...

 

I think this is part of why Independent used to be a thing: to represent an object distinct from the person who has the power or who built it.

Edited January 31 by Christopher R Taylor

[Doc Democracy]

I think the trigger is essential to this.  The power is set to go off, it needs not be close to when they are about to die and could be years in advance, and sits there waiting for the right circumstance.

 

I think the definition of dead is important.  As Duke mentioned, the games are fantastical enough that many undead, mechanical and other non-traditional living beings exist.  If -10 is dead, then the trigger is when the being is taken to -10 BODY (that is my working memory too).

 

Doc

[Duke Bushido]

On 1/30/2024 at 2:58 PM, Gauntlet said:

 

Problem is that eventually you will run out of Duplicates and then the creature is permanently dead.

 

Like some of the others, I don't care for (but also do not dispute the validity of) the Duplication technique.

 

However, I actually kind of like this "side effect" you've pointed out in the mechanic.

 

I actually _do_ like the idea of a finite number of extra lives!  I think I am going to add this little quirk if I ever get around to statting up Adam West's greatest character:  Timmy Turner's Catman!

 

 

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

I think the trigger is essential to this.  The power is set to go off, it needs not be close to when they are about to die and could be years in advance, and sits there waiting for the right circumstance.

 

I think the definition of dead is important.  As Duke mentioned, the games are fantastical enough that many undead, mechanical and other non-traditional living beings exist.  If -10 is dead, then the trigger is when the being is taken to -10 BODY (that is my working memory too).

 

Doc

 

OK...my bad, I'm misreading bad text.  It is negative BODY.  

 

This is a workaround I could live with...which in itself would also be a tip-off.  When the BODY reaches the point of normal "death"...the body here stops functioning completely.  Functionally, it's at negative STUN so it can't act in any event.  It never gets a Recovery.  It can't regen, barring having the Resurrection adder on its regen.  On the flip side, I think I'd also say, the body doesn't deteriorate.  Maybe it bleeds out to a point, but that's it.  Rigor mortis...eh, optional.    No decay, tho;  it's as if it's perfectly preserved.  Life indications?  No breathing, no heartbeat, but maybe brain activity at some VERY low level?  

 

The notion I'm leaning to is, the power's showing itself by NOT letting the body fall apart.

[Chris Goodwin]

7 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

That's why I said to make it a trigger that goes off as they die (while still alive) and with a delay on it.  That way, if they are hit within x time period after death, then it works, otherwise nothing happens.

 

If a Triggered power won't go off after the character who set the Trigger dies, land mines seem to have an issue...

 

I think this is part of why Independent used to be a thing: to represent an object distinct from the person who has the power or who built it.

 

Uncontrolled was (and is) one way to do it.  Independent, despite being a huge limitation, was another.  The Permanent Advantage (from the 3rd edition Magic Items supplement) was another. 

 

But what does death really do to a character?  As far as I can tell, it's somewhere between "everyone knows" and "up to the GM"... and it's never explicitly stated.  In fact, the only places that the game actually says a character's powers stop working is in the sections under Independent (which doesn't exist in 6e). 

 

Do a character's Powers stop working when they're dead? 

 

We know that Powers that are Persistent and 0 END Cost continue to work when a character is unconscious.  Or those that are Persistent with an END Reserve or Charges.  Or those with Continuing Charges or a Time Limit.  Or those that are Instant with a continuing effect, like Aid, Barrier, Drain, Entangle, and so forth.  Inherent Powers can't be Dispelled or Drained.  Many of these powers require a reasonably common and obvious way to turn them off. 

 

The real answer is, as always:  Common sense, dramatic sense, and special effects... and the final decision is as always up to the GM.

 

A particular game's setting can specify one way or the other.  A common power source (i.e. magic) can specify that powers based on it stop working when the character dies.  The rules, though, don't.

 

All of that is to say, there's nothing about Trigger that makes it an exception to anything I've just written.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

the only places that the game actually says a character's powers stop working is in the sections under Independent

 

The rules for Persistent or inherent note that your powers stop working at death too, I believe

[Chris Goodwin]

You're right about Persistent; I didn't look hard enough.  Trigger actually says that if the character dies, what happens to it depends on the circumstances.  (6e1 p. 350.)  Which is a shorter way of saying common sense, dramatic sense, and so forth.